England / Scotland

[Deffeh]

This might be something thats slipping slightly under the radar; but nationalistic tensions are flaring slightly between the english and the Scots. I havent noticed anything in glasgow; but when i was up in Stirling the other weekend, it was pretty evident - scuffles and skirmishes - my english pal says he doesnt like watching england games in pubs. Not because its difficult to remain anonymous, but because theres a crowd that dont want to remain anonymous, and a backlash waiting for them.

Recently there has been a few well publicised attacks on english people in scotland - including this one ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ixuknews.html ) on a 7 year old kid.

Now obviously, the World Cup is the major factor here - its the only rampant display of nationalism left, really, and football is pretty much one of the most important and riling factors in ordinary peoples lifes. And the politicians like Brown, McConnell, Salmond, havent been helping things by scoring cheap political points all over the shop.

However, theres also a recent trend in english publications that suggests that Scotland doesnt pull its weight - and is a drain on england financially. Which is neither relevant or true - and furthermore riles the Scottish.

Most of my friends agree that its the most hostile attitude between the english and scottish we can remember in our lifetimes. My question is; is it likely to get worse? With the Scottish parliamentary elections coming up, a big swing to the SNP could set the wheels in motion for independance.

[Yahwe]

I have never felt as utterly uncomfortable as I felt on my visit to Scotland. I sound rather obviously 'english' and I was amazed at the level of tension and aggression directed at my accent. This is something I am sensitive to because my voice usually affects people in quite the opposite way.

I do not understand Scotish nationalists. I do not worry myself about banockburn or some other rubbish.

That said I am fervently opposed to the people who are trying to create English nationalism (which I would consider even sillier). The st georges flag, st georges day ... These things are bollocks and then mean nothing to me.

Our idiot prime minister wanted to fly the english flag at no. 10 during the world cup. I follow her majesty. She flies no flag but the Union Flag (or the standard for MrL).

I am British.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

I have never felt as utterly uncomfortable as I felt on my visit to Scotland. I sound rather obviously 'english' and I was amazed at the level of tension and aggression directed at my accent. This is something I am sensitive to because my voice usually affects people in quite the opposite way.

Doesnt it just fill you with pride
Shame that Yahwe had to put up with that.
Especially when Scotland is suppose to be a friendy place.

[furball]

It's a problem that gets ignored, although I have no first-hand experience of it. Certainly I've read many reports where English 'immigrants' have been driven out of Scotland via bullying both at work and in the home. It saddens me greatly, since the English almost never act the same way towards the Scots.


Wales isn't so bad. Most of the Welsh are apathetic at this World Cup and just watching for the quality of the game itself - but they won't go so far as to support England's opposition. Incidents have occured, but little worse than this.

[Phang]

aside from "light ribbing", my perception of the problem (not talking about when it's addressed to me, but in general) is that tension only arises when an englishman is being patronising or is full of bullshit. in these cases, nationality just seals the deal. Yahwe, you probably just weren't used to class war, there isn't much of it in Oxford or Central London.

[milo]

There isn't much for the snp to call for apart from full independence, you have your own education system, judiciary, police force, parliment etc. London accounts for something like 20% of the GDP so no 'other place' pulls its weight. Its my opinion, based on not much, that giving more controls to scotland simply exhaserbated the problem, theres an alienation with england&wales because england&wales do things differently and seperately to scotland, even if you want to trivialise this to how certain stories are reported in the media, scotland is less likely to gain any national mention because the way it operates only applies to scotland.

As it is full indepedance reallly wouldn't bother me or affect my way of life in any way, if its what scottish people want so be it, but you're not going to suddenly become massive world playas. Theres the usual childish mention of 'scottish inventions' but its really the institutions of london that turbo charge the UK, having such a powerful global city makes britain. Proportionatly to scotlands size you'll be as 'important' as ireland or portugal. That isn't to say that international importance is high on snp demands, just that england cant in any legitimate sense be said to be 'holding scotland back'.

[pablissimo]

Oddly, I've seen less trouble first-hand during the World Cup than I did during the rugby. The 'right' parts of Edinburgh aren't too bad for watching the footy in the pub, though there's the occasional 'discussion' that starts with some drunk Scot proudly denouncing England and picking any other team at random and supporting them vehemently and the English guys not bothering to kick off back. In fairness though I spend an awful lot of time trying to explain to people that 'no I'm not from Manchester, I'm scouse' to morons who're too drunk to not piss on their shoes so that perhaps distracts them.

I've not seen much of a hatred towards the English by Scots, and there's certainly nothing of the sort the other way round for English kids living up north of the border. In the cases where it has happened, it's generally been xenophobia targetted to anyone non-Scottish than just English, I've seen Canadian guys picked on in bars for 'being yank ****s'. Parts of the country, I get the impression, are against outsiders rather than just the English, though I've seen it happen in many a city round the UK so I'm not sure it's a local phenomenon.

It's not like I've seen any great love for that other group of devolutees, the Welsh, while I've been in this town.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Phang

Yahwe, you probably just weren't used to class war, there isn't much of it in Oxford or Central London.

While I am tempted to defer to your years of experience and concede that you know my life better than I do, this time i'm afraid I must forgo that wonderful opportunity

[Apothos]

Living close to Scotland, there are quite a few Scots in my town - i can't say that i've ever noticed any hostility between them and the English, and have never been the victim of any when i've visited Scotland (i was there just last week, for example).
I was unaware this problem was as prevalent as indicated. Possibly because i'm close to the border, so people are more used to each other, but after 300 years of Union you'd think we'd all get along a bit better than this!

[Nodrog]

Poor people are generally stupid, and Scotland has a disproportionately large percentage of poor people. Throw in the standard inferority complex that arises when you have a small nation next to a big one, as well as the football factor, and the results arent particularly surprising.

Having said that, I dont think its that bad in Edinburgh (at least in the nice parts). I would imagine that its far worse in Glasgow because hating English people is built into the zeitgeist of half the city due to sporting/pseudo-religious reasons (along with earlier 'poor people' comment). Its probably also quite bad when you go up north, because Aberdeen is generally full of idiots, and you start to get the local-town-for-local-people thing once you leave the big cities.

The idea of independence is fairly stupid and its not particularly clear what the benefits would be, although I wouldnt oppose Edinburgh declaring independence from the rest of Scotland and leaving them to stew in their bitterness.

[dda]

Tensions among the tribes.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Poor people are generally stupid, and Scotland has a disproportionately large percentage of poor people. Throw in the standard inferority complex that arises when you have a small nation next to a big one, as well as the football factor, and the results arent particularly surprising.

If you want to argue what is stupid is...England's football fans and their travelling record is and how stupid they are that they cant get on with the other countries fans.

[Emperor Rozenski]

I'm Scottish, born in Edinburgh 1981 to two Scottish parents. My family moved to England when I was 9, I'm 25 now and have totally lost my accent, in fact a few of my English friends and workmates joke that I have a 'posh' English accent now.

I still visit relatives in scotland (Edinburgh and Glasgow) for a week or so every couple of years, when I'm up there I get out to the shops, maybe catch a flick, pop out to the local chippie for a nice pie or fish supper (of which you can't get a decent one of in England) the odd night. Not once has anybody batted an eyelid, nor been rude to me or treated me differently to anybody else.

I got teased a lot in Junior school down here for my accent but that was by kids when I was a kid, I've never had any problems in England since school being Scottish. I work with a diverse bunch of people, in my department of two dozen or so people, there are English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Sri Lanken, Indian, Polish, used to be a Russian, they're all great people and we all get along and respect each other and right now with the work cup on theres friendly banter about each other's teams or lack of. This is how things should be nationally and internationally.

However, I've seen the recent reports in the news and find such stories quite disturbing and rather sad, we're all together on this little island of ours and indeed this little planet of ours, why can't we all just get along?

[Dark-Strider]

I've never had a problem when i've gone up to Scotland recently, but some of the News reports are a bit disturbing. Like the one with the 7 year old kid.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Paisley

If you want to argue what is stupid is...England's football fans and their travelling record is and how stupid they are that they cant get on with the other countries fans.

I dont get why thats relevant

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

I dont get why thats relevant

or up-to-date either.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Ste

or up-to-date either.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5112364.stm

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5112364.stm

Rather than drink and get on with other fans from other nations, the English fans would rather go and pick fights.

How clever is that, and You are trying to brand most of Scotland stupid?

Talk about the pope calling the priest a "Tim"

[Hicks]

Originally Posted by furball

It's a problem that gets ignored, although I have no first-hand experience of it. Certainly I've read many reports where English 'immigrants' have been driven out of Scotland via bullying both at work and in the home. It saddens me greatly, since the English almost never act the same way towards the Scots.


Wales isn't so bad. Most of the Welsh are apathetic at this World Cup and just watching for the quality of the game itself - but they won't go so far as to support England's opposition. Incidents have occured, but little worse than this.

Depends where in Wales, walk into certain pubs in Canton when an England game is on wearing an England shirt then I'd expect a hammering. The reason most of Wales is apathetic to the whole thing is football at least Internationally isn't that popular in Wales, if it was rugby then I'm sure everyone would be cheering on who ever England were playing. Most Welsh football fans (Of clubs and the National side) will be ecstatic when they go out so we find out what name we can chant for the next two years.

[Deffeh]

I have given up trying to steer direction of this thread but i have to say im not fond of the "its all Scotland" thing we seem to have going on here. The english are just as bad.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

The english are just as bad.

Perhaps it's very different in other parts of the country but I've never really encountered deep seated anti-Scottish sentiment in London. I'm sure there are a few people carrying out historical bitterness, but they seem to be few and far between and "English nationalists" (if such things exist) have got a whole list of people to be bitter of whom the Scots are just one.

Having said that, when I visited Scotland recently (ok, this was Edinburgh) I didn't encounter any anti-English sentiment that I noticed. In fact, aside from the lack of superficial politeness I found most people relatively friendly.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Phang

Yahwe, you probably just weren't used to class war, there isn't much of it in Oxford or Central London.

I think this is probably overstating things rather a lot, but yeah the reaction to Yahwe's accent was probably emphasised by the fact it was posh and English. I suspect people who said particularly brummie or georgie or whatever aren't faced with necessarily the same responses.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Paisley

Rather than drink and get on with other fans from other nations, the English fans would rather go and pick fights.

And here's a fairly good example of the Scottish being naturally hostile towards the English.

England's hooliganism problem has been tackled pretty successfully over the last few years, and despite that incident in Stuttgart we've been very well received in Germany. It's a shame that in Scotland, there's been little effort to tackle the sectarianism that pervades not only the Old Firm matches but the Scottish way of life.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5112364.stm

From people I've spoken to that were there it was Argentina and German fans goading the English.
I also heard that a big group of Dutch fans were singing "10 German bombers" to which a load of English fans joined in with them.

And anyway, seeing as there are approximately 80,000 England fans out there at the moment, (60,000 were in Stuttgart alone) one incident with 150 fans is a tiny proportion.

Look at the trouble after the Germany Poland game.

"Total arrests of all nationalities during the tournament stand at more than 4,000."
It's hardly England fans causing all the trouble is it, especially as we arguably have the largest travelling support out there.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by furball

And here's a fairly good example of the Scottish being naturally hostile towards the English.

England's hooliganism problem has been tackled pretty successfully over the last few years, and despite that incident in Stuttgart we've been very well received in Germany. It's a shame that in Scotland, there's been little effort to tackle the sectarianism that pervades not only the Old Firm matches but the Scottish way of life.

Hearts and Hiberian sadly have a similar problem but probily not on the same scale as rangers and celtic.
there is some effort being made.
http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/antisec...m/06040113.htm

No hostility there, It is embarrising when England gets a bad image as the media (mainly the BBC) have referred to them as in the past as being "British"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/753819.stm being an example.
Implying that it is just not England fans but also Scottish welsh and N.Irish fans were also there in numbers.

Whilst Englands fans are behaving themselves better from say Euro 2000
There is still a long road ahead of them

Aye speaking of Firms.... How is Englands domestic Scene?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2256132.stm
Whilst Scotland do have football casuals It is in no way in the same league as England.

[Ephor]

Originally Posted by furball

Certainly I've read many reports where English 'immigrants' have been driven out of Scotland via bullying both at work and in the home. It saddens me greatly, since the English almost never act the same way towards the Scots.

Please, tell us more*!

Originally Posted by milo

London accounts for something like 20% of the GDP

I'm sick of hearing about how great London is at making us all richer; it is no coincidence that the 'institutions' you speak of choose headquarters near those of, well, the country. I don't begrudge London its status as capital, but it's really not fair to compare it with other British cities.



*about how the Scots are such bullies while the noble English would never consider such ghastly conduct.

[milo]

Originally Posted by Ephor

I'm sick of hearing about how great London is at making us all richer; it is no coincidence that the 'institutions' you speak of choose headquarters near those of, well, the country. I don't begrudge London its status as capital, but it's really not fair to compare it with other British cities.

Washington =/= New York, banks don't have to be close to the BoE and iirc leeds of all places has the highest number of investment bank offices outside london. The organs of government in an everyday sense don't need to be anywhere near london and certain other companies (like tesco) wouldn't dream of putting up somewhere so expensive.

[Ephor]

Originally Posted by furball

England's hooliganism problem has been tackled pretty successfully over the last few years, and despite that incident in Stuttgart we've been very well received in Germany.

Aren't all the notorious hooligans banned from travelling abroad during international football competitions? Yeah the sanitised ingerland faithful probably got on fine, but what about Canary Wharf?

Originally Posted by furball

It's a shame that in Scotland, there's been little effort to tackle the sectarianism that pervades not only the Old Firm matches but the Scottish way of life.

There's been little effort to tackle Old Firm sectarianism? Seriously, what do you actually know about this 'Scottish way of life'?

[Marilyn Manson]

Nationalism is silleh

[Ephor]

Originally Posted by milo

Washington =/= New York, banks don't have to be close to the BoE and iirc leeds of all places has the highest number of investment bank offices outside london. The organs of government in an everyday sense don't need to be anywhere near london and certain other companies (like tesco) wouldn't dream of putting up somewhere so expensive.

London is in no way comparable with Washington DC, just as it would be unfair to compare Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool to New York. I don't see how the statement "New York is economically stronger than Washington DC" detracts from the statement "capital cities receive an economic bonus due to their status and the institutions that come with that status" either.

[milo]

Originally Posted by Ephor

London is in no way comparable with Washington DC, just as it would be unfair to compare Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool to New York. I don't see how the statement "New York is economically stronger than Washington DC" detracts from the statement "capital cities receive an economic bonus due to their status and the institutions that come with that status" either.

yeah but the point i originally made was london wasn't 'just' a capital city but a global one. I wouldn't disagree that there is a bonus in being the capital, id say that that 'bonus' can't account for the level of input london provides.

[Obliterate]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

I have given up trying to steer direction of this thread but i have to say im not fond of the "its all Scotland" thing we seem to have going on here. The english are just as bad.

I'm not sure this is true. When Scotland play in a football match I generally cheer them on and want them to win, and so do most of the (English) people I've talked to (obviously there are exceptions etc...) Whereas I get the impression when England are playing the majority of Scottish people want them to lose.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Ephor

"capital cities receive an economic bonus due to their status and the institutions that come with that status"

This is true, but the idea of capital cities seems to be more of a European thing. I mean if you look at the South Africa, the US, Australia, China, etc their largest cities tend not to be the centre of government (I think).

[midge5]

Originally Posted by Obliterate

I'm not sure this is true. When Scotland play in a football match I generally cheer them on and want them to win, and so do most of the (English) people I've talked to (obviously there are exceptions etc...) Whereas I get the impression when England are playing the majority of Scottish people want them to lose.

#

I'd have to 2nd this. Nearly all of the English people I know want Wales/Scotland to win if that victory doesn't adversely affect them but when the situation is reversed I don't know any Scots who want England to win and only about half of my Welsh friends do. The overwhelming factor for this though does seem to be a dread of 20 years of the papers going on and on about 1966/2003/next win rather than an actual desire to see England humiliated.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Ephor

Please, tell us more*!

*about how the Scots are such bullies while the noble English would never consider such ghastly conduct.

As for driving people out of Scotland, I've read a good handful reports of the former without ever having heard of Scottish people being forced by English people back to Scotland. I have Scottish neighbours who live opposite me, they do just fine.

Originally Posted by Ephor

There's been little effort to tackle Old Firm sectarianism? Seriously, what do you actually know about this 'Scottish way of life'?

I don't see the sectarianism at your football matches stopping any time soon. Paisley made a thread a while ago about how even your primary school could define who you were - whether you went to a Catholic or Protestant one, or which football team you support, and so on. It's a dividing factor which surely (shirley) you cannot deny.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

This is true, but the idea of capital cities seems to be more of a European thing. I mean if you look at the South Africa, the US, Australia, China, etc their largest cities tend not to be the centre of government (I think).

I wouldnt say its European as such; the countries you mention are all extremely large, which is probably why it makes less sense to have everything located in one city. But note places like Japan/Russia/South America for examples of non-European countries that do the capital city thing.

Washington DC is a very special case to which no real comparasion can be made, since it was designed solely for the purpose of hosting the government, rather than being a 'real' city. There's a very brief history on wikipedia

[Deffeh]

You're all forgetting the fact that Britain is an english concept and project. You are afforded the luxury of saying "oh heys lets support those little countrys to the north and west, how liberal and british of us". The British media, is essentially the english media. You have the luxury as englishmen, of feeling both English and British, because theres no contradiction between the two - whereas there is between Scottishness and Britishness.

Britain is the remnants of Englands empire

[milo]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Washington DC is a very special case to which no real comparasion can be made, since afaik it was designed solely for the purpose of hosting the government, rather than being a 'real' city.

the australians and brazilians did the same

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

You're all forgetting the fact that Britain is an english concept and project. You are afforded the luxury of saying "oh heys lets support those little countrys to the north and west, how liberal and british of us". The British media, is essentially the english media. You have the luxury as englishmen, of feeling both English and British, because theres no contradiction between the two - whereas there is between Scottishness and Britishness.

Yes

Britain is the remnants of Englands empire

No

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

You're all forgetting the fact that Britain is an english concept and project. You are afforded the luxury of saying "oh heys lets support those little countrys to the north and west, how liberal and british of us". The British media, is essentially the english media. You have the luxury as englishmen, of feeling both English and British, because theres no contradiction between the two - whereas there is between Scottishness and Britishness.

Britain is the remnants of Englands empire

No. It. Isn't.

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. I will publicly kiss you if you can prove your nonsense.

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

No. It. Isn't.

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. I will publicly kiss you if you can prove your nonsense.

what, even though he is short?

[Deffeh]

fuk u i'm not short i just dont stand up straight. I'm actually 6', or maybe just half an inch under.

Also, i was expecting lots of counter arguments but "no" and "no it isnt" with dots for emphasis was way more than i could counterblast myself. Though the thought of yahwe kissing me has horrified me enough to scare me away from this thread for a while

[Phang]

alright. "no, britain can't be described as the remnants of the english empire because despite the woeful attitudes of many englishmen to the 'provinces', the history of the thing is rather different. To put things in the simplest terms possible, there was Britain before there was an Empire, and Britain came about when control of England was given to the Scottish King. And to try to suggest Scotland had neither interest nor participation in Empire is utterly ridiculous."

English "control" over Scotland comes from the fact that England is by far the larger part of a joined entity. California has more electoral college votes than North Dakota; does California "control" ND? or could it instead be argued that given the greater number of college votes, senators and congressmen per head for North Dakotans, that they actually have more power than Californians?

[roadrunner_0]

you arent the same height as me are you?

[dda]

Originally Posted by Phang

North Dakotans...actually have more power than Californians?

Stop it! You're frightening me.

[Deffeh]

Newsnight 1 minute ago :

"Winston Churchill used to give inspirational speeches, when england stood alone against the world."

An excellent example; of why it is impossible for most Scots to feel British.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Newsnight 1 minute ago :

"Winston Churchill used to give inspirational speeches, when england stood alone against the world."

An excellent example; of why it is impossible for most Scots to feel British.

yeah, that's pretty indefensible. But, it's more a "guy should be punched in the face" thing than an SNP issue.


On which note, did I ever tell you lot that Alex Salmond was one of my dad's drinking buddies at uni? Fun fact!

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Newsnight 1 minute ago :

"Winston Churchill used to give inspirational speeches, when england stood alone against the world."

An excellent example; of why it is impossible for most Scots to feel British.

The Battle of Britain.

Churchill spoken frequently of the British Government and said Britain.

And to quote Winston Churchill when speaking about a conversation he had with von-ribbentrop in 1937:
"... the gist of what he said to me was that Germany sought the friendship of England; on the continent we are still often called England."
The Mansion House Speech 10th November 1942:
" ... The late [foreign name removed] observed that in all her wars England, he ought to have said Britain of course ..."

These are the FACTS Deffeh. Do not get upset over what an ignorant hack-need journalist writes or says.

It is still the British Broadcasting Corporation.

HOMEWORK:
Before you post again Deffeh I would like you to both
a) Tell me the name of the army that soldiers from the UK fought in France in both 1939 and 1916
b) List British prime ministers from 1900-2000 and tell me from which part of the UK they come.

I am not angry at you Deffeh. I had to trawl quite a few speeches for you in order to find the exact quotes that I wanted. I am saddened that you think that the Empire was English; regardless of how incorrect you are.

[Deffeh]

no wait



nevermind.

[ReligFree]

Havent read anything else but the topic and the first post but what has recently annoyed me is Andy Murray (the dipshit scottish guy who plays tennis quite well) who claimed he had bought a paraguay shirt when we played them in the qualifiers. What really gets me is friends of mine were on centre court yesterday and were cheering him along. He has thousands of people who support him from England at wimbledon and he hates English people. Henman hill is going to become Murray Mountain or whatever. Just really annoys me how English people support him and he actually hates english people... tosser