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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 19:33   #1
All Systems Go
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New Conservatives, New Danger

Well, not really because it's exactly the same tories of old. I gneuinely cannot believe that this guy was so stupid to say what he did.

It's not just that he said that racist abuse was acceptable in the army, he basically justified bullying in the army. How was he expecting to keep his job?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6431005.stm

As an aside, is bullying acceptable in the army? Is it the only way to get people to do what is required of them?

Personally, if an arm requires such tactics to get people moving then there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole system.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 19:39   #2
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Was he commenting on the reality, or advocating it?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 19:45   #3
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
is bullying acceptable in the army?
It depends what you mean by bullying. Ritual beatings and sodomy? Probably not. Shouting and making someone feel shit about themselves? Well, what did you expect? Have you not seen those movies with the drill sergeants?

It's like working on a building site and then resigning because your colleagues keep making sexist comments at passing women.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 19:55   #4
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Being the done thing does not make something acceptable nor does it mean it should be tolerated.

When you sign up to the army you should expect such things but doesn't mean they are right. Seeing as people in the army tend to come from poorer backgrounds and have more limited options to remove themselves out of poverty. I don't see how restriction can be used to justify verbal abuse. If you were called a fat/black/ ginger bastard in the office then it would in no way be acceptable. the army should not be exempt from such laws.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:01   #5
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

I'm not sure why he would have to step down for describing what happened.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:10   #6
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Well it could be percieved as tacit support as he did not openly criticise these actions in an institution to which he was a part of for many years.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:11   #7
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Being the done thing does not make something acceptable nor does it mean it should be tolerated.

When you sign up to the army you should expect such things but doesn't mean they are right. Seeing as people in the army tend to come from poorer backgrounds and have more limited options to remove themselves out of poverty. I don't see how restriction can be used to justify verbal abuse. If you were called a fat/black/ ginger bastard in the office then it would in no way be acceptable. the army should not be exempt from such laws.
Being in the army isn't like working in an office. In the army you partake in rigorous physical exercises which in itself makes the whole experience more intense. In such an environment then some teasing (I wouldn't even call it bullying and especially not racism) is to be expected. Plus taking into account that these people are expected to fight (and possibly even die) for their country just accentuates the fact that the rules that apply in other walks of life shouldn't necessarily apply here.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:40   #8
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Well it could be percieved as tacit support as he did not openly criticise these actions in an institution to which he was a part of for many years.
Well quite, but it seems no one gave him the opportunity to clarify himself or indeed criticise the army, and instead overreacted and labelled him a racist when it might not well be the case. If anything, the story of real interest is the level of racism in the army rather than a conservative mp describing it.

I can't be sure he's a racist from what is quoted on the BBC. I mean on the one hand he seems to have acquiesced a bit and maybe he should have done something but on the other hand he's got one of his own black former officers pretty much backing him up 100%.

In all honesty, I am not sure what to make of it all, apart from the fact that it seems all a bit too sensationalist.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 21:15   #9
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
If you were called a fat/black/ ginger bastard in the office then it would in no way be acceptable. the army should not be exempt from such laws.
Why? Most places I've worked, uni, and us lot in school, all did stuff like that. People on this forum do virtually the same thing. From what I read it didn't seem like anyone cared about what was being said to them, and if they are in the same regiment I imagine there is a decent chance that they will have at least some knowledge of the person shouting abuse at them which just makes it seem like normal piss taking to me.

If I screw up it is already established that is because I am Welsh/too skinny/am in fact 12 years old, if someone who is overweight is doing something slow it is because they are a fat ****er.

I agree with Lokken though and it does seem like a bit of an overreaction.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 21:35   #10
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

What this Mercer bloke said isn't particularly bad. Basically he said that teasing occurs in the army and it's not a race issue or a gender issue, it's just the way it is. Nothing wrong with that. This is just yet another sign of the PC culture gone mad.

Besides, how many people who criticise this guy actually have any idea of what it's like to be in the armed forces? It's not like any of them spent months in a prison camp 100 miles out of Danang, living in a river while some gooks pointed semi automatic weapons at them and forced them to play Russian Roulette with each other! And when we finally came home nobody cheered us. Where's my ticker tape parade!?!?!
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 23:30   #11
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

I'm not sure how easy it is to reconcile the basic principles behind armies and wars (after all, the underlying point is you may be called upon to kill foriegners in the defence of the Crown) with egalitarian/touchy feely principles which inform modern office politics.

I don't want people to be racially (or otherwise) abused in the army but then I don't want them to be in the army in the first place. These are a large group of men who are given machine guns and who take an oath to follow orders and obey even where their individual morality may tell them not to. Criticising them on the grounds they are a bit beastly to their new recruits seems to be missing the point a tad.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 23:44   #12
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Although i agree with dante id say an army that is at least aware of race relations is likely to be less shit when dealing with the people it illegally occupies. In the general scheme of things it probably won't have a massive impact but well i suppose its better than nothing.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 00:22   #13
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Being the done thing does not make something acceptable nor does it mean it should be tolerated.

When you sign up to the army you should expect such things but doesn't mean they are right. Seeing as people in the army tend to come from poorer backgrounds and have more limited options to remove themselves out of poverty. I don't see how restriction can be used to justify verbal abuse. If you were called a fat/black/ ginger bastard in the office then it would in no way be acceptable. the army should not be exempt from such laws.
Attitudes like this mean I have to under go "harassment awareness" courses every now and again at work. They are not fun, basically don't talk to anyone at work in case they get offend.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 02:19   #14
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

From my reading of this article what we have here is an intelligent man with direct experience of the issues (racism and bullying in the army) and who has the rare (unheard of in a politician) moral character to talk frankly and openly about them.

He was fired. Oh good.

This one issue alone would cause me, were I British, to not vote for any conservative while David Cameron leads them. He is obviously a political coward without the integrity to take a stand against the politically correct insanities bandied about in modern media. Truth be told I wouldn't even let him lead me across the street if I were blind.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 02:27   #15
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Well, not really because it's exactly the same tories of old. I gneuinely cannot believe that this guy was so stupid to say what he did.

It's not just that he said that racist abuse was acceptable in the army, he basically justified bullying in the army. How was he expecting to keep his job?



As an aside, is bullying acceptable in the army? Is it the only way to get people to do what is required of them?

Personally, if an arm requires such tactics to get people moving then there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole system.

To cover your points.

1) stupid comments for an MP and someone who will potentially be a member of the next parliment- yeah i suppose so, but when you read the whole article it isnt racist its more a statment of fact. Only people who would find it racist are probably white middle class people.These are called DO GOODERS.

2) Same tories ? well we can all read a history book i guess, but in the words of someone catching a decent wave, "you had to be there" some of us were. Some of us saw the previous labour government as well. - however politics is rude and a personal thing so no more from me on that

3) To cover your army bullying, if you deem abuse for being ginger/black/short/tall/white/indian/mixed race/jewish/italian/greek/thick/clever/fat/thin/glasses wearer(four eyes)Bullying, then just dont join up but also do not judge unless you have been there.

What is wrong with the whole system is that too many people want to treat the army (thats basically the place where you learn to KILL PEOPLE ) like some civil service.

Unfortunately, what is wrong with the whole system, is that the people that a Soldier will have to come into contact with, do not subscribe to the same basic human rights as you might do in your cosey coseted detached house in bloody suburbia owned or funded by mummy and daddy.

The people a soldier will meet will try to shoot you. They will try to Blow you up, They will throw petrol bombs at you, they will throw rocks at you, they will surprise surprise, call you names .......ginger/black/short/tall/white/indian/mixed race/jewish/italian/greek/thick/clever/fat/thin/four eyes.

So i would love to know your solution to building someone who can take this sort of abuse. Perhaps a racial awareness course for the whole world ?

"sorry we can not come and help/invade your country until everyone has been on a course "

Oh and btw mister jonny foreigner dont give our soldiers any abuse cause we will arrest you for racial crimes...however, you can shoot them, kill them or bomb them thats ok....

now ask yourself, do i think your a twat ?

I think you know the answer to that.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 12:51   #16
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Timmy
To cover your points.

1) stupid comments for an MP and someone who will potentially be a member of the next parliment- yeah i suppose so, but when you read the whole article it isnt racist its more a statment of fact. Only people who would find it racist are probably white middle class people.These are called DO GOODERS.
He was on the Shadow Front Bench. the main problem is that he made these comments with a kind of 'that's the way it is' feeling and did not condemn these actions. If you say it's acceptable (or at least don't condemn) to call someone a 'black bastard' then you're going to run into difficulties. to then compare this to calling someone a 'fat bastard' is kind of missing the point.

Quote:
2) Same tories ? well we can all read a history book i guess, but in the words of someone catching a decent wave, "you had to be there" some of us were. Some of us saw the previous labour government as well. - however politics is rude and a personal thing so no more from me on that
I wish you would. I've no idea what you're trying to say.

Quote:
3) To cover your army bullying, if you deem abuse for being ginger/black/short/tall/white/indian/mixed race/jewish/italian/greek/thick/clever/fat/thin/glasses wearer(four eyes)Bullying, then just dont join up but also do not judge unless you have been there.
Funnily enough, I do consider abuse for all of those things to be bullying. Isn't that weird?

Quote:
What is wrong with the whole system is that too many people want to treat the army (thats basically the place where you learn to KILL PEOPLE ) like some civil service.
the Army is not a perfect institution. A report was published the other day saying that bullying was still rampant, though progress was being made. If it was found that corpral punishment was still being employed in some barracks it would not be deemed acceptable. I can't see why verbal abuse should be any different.

Quote:
Unfortunately, what is wrong with the whole system, is that the people that a Soldier will have to come into contact with, do not subscribe to the same basic human rights as you might do in your cosey coseted detached house in bloody suburbia owned or funded by mummy and daddy.

The people a soldier will meet will try to shoot you. They will try to Blow you up, They will throw petrol bombs at you, they will throw rocks at you, they will surprise surprise, call you names .......ginger/black/short/tall/white/indian/mixed race/jewish/italian/greek/thick/clever/fat/thin/four eyes.
Oh how well you know me. I'm just waiting for mummy and daddy to die and collect my inheritance.

Funnily enough, I doubt someone shouting insults at you when you're under fire is going to be your main concern. there isalso the issue that they probably won't speak the same language and you'll probably be in a tank with far more guns than the enemy who have just been bombed to shit by the Air Force.

Quote:
So i would love to know your solution to building someone who can take this sort of abuse. Perhaps a racial awareness course for the whole world ?

"sorry we can not come and help/invade your country until everyone has been on a course "
I would imagine this is exactly what they said about corporal punishment before it was abolished. Just because it's always been done doesn't mean it's the right way or indeed the best way.

Quote:
Oh and btw mister jonny foreigner dont give our soldiers any abuse cause we will arrest you for racial crimes...however, you can shoot them, kill them or bomb them thats ok....
You were teetering on the edge for a while but this is the precise moment when you offically crossed into the retarded section of our society.

Quote:
now ask yourself, do i think your a twat ?
I'm not sure you're of a fit mental state to be honest. I wouldn't dare guess what you were thinking.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 15:14   #17
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

fight fight fight
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 15:34   #18
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Wasn't he sacked for this comment?

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He also said: "I came across a lot of ethnic minority soldiers who were idle and useless, but who used racism as cover for their misdemeanours.
i.e. not just for describing racism in the army?

I don't think Cameron should have sacked him, but the use of the term "a lot" was unwise because it could be - and would have been by labour - misconstrued as a racial generalisation on a much larger population. He should have used "some" to cover his back. Besides, the Tories are suppose to be the nice party now.

It's a pity really. I'd like the conservatives to become a realistic opposition party. I hope this won't damage them too much.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 17:10   #19
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
STUFF.
I think you just made all of my points really. You dont "get the armed forces"


Your looking for a fight on a browser based games bulletin board. I think your point of view is one of someone that doesn't know much of anything but has an opinion on everything.

So I still think your a twat.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 18:05   #20
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Timmy
I think you just made all of my points really. You dont "get the armed forces"


Your looking for a fight on a browser based games bulletin board. I think your point of view is one of someone that doesn't know much of anything but has an opinion on everything.

So I still think your a twat.
Well thanks for enlightening me. Really good talking to you.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 22:22   #21
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Re: New Conservatives, New Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Timmy
I think you just made all of my points really. You dont "get the armed forces"
I suppose all the budding young army types who committed suicide or died in suspicious circumstances at the Deepcut barracks in recent years didn't really "get the armed forces" either.

Although it's not really a case of "not getting the armed forces"; the level of this kind of thing, and the bullying, if you want to use that term, that it is linked to is negligable in the RN and RAF.

Perhaps there might be a problem with the army after all!
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