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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 00:24   #1
vampire_lestat
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well worth a read

i know link threads aren't the done thing and all, but as someone studying physics i think it's worth saying once again that boris johnson is my god and this is why
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 00:42   #2
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Re: well worth a read

whats wrong with history

also i don't necessarily agree with the dumbing down of education. of course you have your media studies and your business and your sociology, but i don't think the old subjects like english, maths, science, history, languages are that much easier i think its much more a case of targeted teaching i.e. teachers only teaching what students need to pass the exams, thus making it far easier to pass the exam since you don't have all that superfluous information that you had to learn before examiners got lazy and started practically repeating the same exams year after year.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 01:04   #3
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Re: well worth a read

Great article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris
The tragedy is that the A grades in the sciences, advanced maths and languages are increasingly ghettoised in the grammar schools and the independent sector, and when the Blair Government is brought to the bar of history, it will be one of the single heaviest charges that, by failing to tackle the crunchy subjects in state schools, a Labour government presided over a shocking decline in social mobility.
This is so true. I went to a selective grammar school and took History, Politics and Economics at A-Level. Equally I could have done other such 'advanced' subjects such as Philosophy and Further Mathematics.

No state school seems to offer all of these anymore - which is a great shame. Can Business Studies ever be as academically challenging as Economics? Is Psychology a viable subject in comparison to Philosophy? I don't think so.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 01:14   #4
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
whats wrong with history
Nothing, but if you combine it with Mathematics and Physics you'll get into Cambridge. ;)
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 01:26   #5
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apothos
Nothing, but if you combine it with Mathematics and Physics you'll get into Cambridge.
Not if you're applying for a language degree you won't
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 01:30   #6
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Not if you're applying for a language degree you won't
If you're applying for a language degree on the back of History, Physics and Mathematics A-Levels i don't think Cambridge is the place for you.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 02:15   #7
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
This is so true. I went to a selective grammar school and took History, Politics and Economics at A-Level. Equally I could have done other such 'advanced' subjects such as Philosophy and Further Mathematics.

No state school seems to offer all of these anymore - which is a great shame. Can Business Studies ever be as academically challenging as Economics? Is Psychology a viable subject in comparison to Philosophy? I don't think so.
Fantastic article indeed! I must beg to differ sligthly on the state school point: My state school offered Economics, and my state sixth form offered all of the above subjects, and indeed most of the classic 'difficult subjects' (bar classics itself!). It also offered their cushy alternatives. But as Boris states, regardless of the grade, these subjects are seen by nobody (but the seriously deluded) as equal.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 02:31   #8
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Re: well worth a read

tomkat 'teaches' business studies
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 05:47   #9
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Re: well worth a read

some random thoughts:

1) Most people dont need to know anything about physics other than the absolute basics. If they are interested in that sort of thing then cool, the resources should be available for them to learn more about it, but if their interests lie elsewhere then who cares? Sure you can say that most people 'should' know about physics, but then I think that most people should also know basic economics and youre more likely to learn that in a business studies class than a physics one.

2) Civilisation is built on enterprise/business just as much as it's built on raw science. The two are intertwined and talking about one as being more important is pretty silly. I believe soviet russia was quite adament about funding science, but if the political and economic conditions arent right it isnt going to help much.

3) "My subject is better than yours" arguments are really childish if done non-ironically, and almost certainly reflect intellectual insecurity. It's one thing to complain about the way a subject is taught and to enquire whether it's being dumbed down, or to question its current academic state, but if you want to say that its outright worthless then you'd better be prepared to back this up when you get called on it.

4) The way maths is taught in school these days, its not surprising that most people hate it. This doesnt mean that people are 'stupid', it means that our schooling system is horrendously broken and the curriculum needs to be pretty much rewritten from the ground up. Mathematics can be extremely interesting and beautiful, but you will rarely, if ever, get a glimpse at this aspect of it in high-school.

5) Media studies, if done properly, is a perfectly valid area of study and having some idea of how the media works is probably far more important from a practical point of view than knowing about physics, unless you want to be a scientist/engineer. Dont confuse the state of a particular subject at the present time with the validity of the subject itself.

6) Some of thse problems stem from the current grading system, and the silly way that university admissions are handled. People should be able to do what they enjoy while at school rather than what they think is most likely to get them into university. I'm not entirely sure how I'd go aobut handling university admissions, but the current system is far too biased towards kids who enjoyed school rather than trying to find people who have the potential to do well in future.

7) Anti-intellectualism is a very serious problem in modern society, but articles like this dont help because they are too focused on superficial symptoms rather than the underlying causes. The real question to ask is _why_ people would rather do things like business studies and drama than physics and mathematics, and saying "bcoz they are 2 hard" is simplistic nonsense.

8) Greek and Latin are almost completely useless unless youre a philosophy/classics student and the fact he mentions them as examples of 'good' things to study betrays his underlying biases

9) Teaching a proper understanding of the scientific method is far more important than the individual teaching of physics, chemistry or biology. These 3 disciplines should be taught as examples of how to apply the scientific method with a strong focus on chronology and historical developments, rather than as a collection of facts to be memorised and regurgitated. It's absurd that students are able to graduate highschool able to tell you about covalent bonding and quote the formula for relativistic addition of velecoties, yet couldnt describe why we no longer believe in phlogiston or explain the significance of Galileo and Popper. Science is not ahistorical and should not be taught as if it is - ultimately you have to decide whether you want to produce walking fact machines, or intelligent students who are able to review and assess scientific theories/movements for themselves.

10) Noone should ever be forced to learn anything, but one of the most important values which schools should impart to students is intellectual curiosity, along with the desire and willingness to learn things for themselves. With this as a criteria, the current state schooling system is largely an abysmal failure.

11) I bet more students would find high school physics interesting if Richard Feynman had designed the curriculum.

Last edited by Nodrog; 27 Aug 2006 at 06:20.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 09:05   #10
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Re: well worth a read

Part of the problem is that Labour seem to be of the mentality "everyone needs a degree", when they don't.
Apparently now we have Polish people coming over to do plumbing and so on, because no one in the UK bothers now. Our builder had an apprentice when he was here earlier this year, but he says there's not a huge amount of them around any more and this apprentice still wanted to go and do lots of courses at college.

I think that all degree courses taught should have to justify why they should be taught, and cut out of university if they are not deemed of any real use.
Isn't there David Beckham studies or something?

I have a cousin (probably second cousin once removed or something) who after doing her GCSEs actually went around all the banks until she found someone that would take her and train her. She'll have 5+ years of experience over someone who is going to take a degree.

I guess the only reason that everyone goes for degrees these days is that they want to keep their options open. If you train for one thing then lose your job, it's not that easy to find a new job as you have to go into the same job (ish) again. If you get a degree, you're generally equally useless at everything, but they know that you can learn enough to be of some use [in office jobs etc]


I thought that Physics was comparitively easy at A Level. Chemistry was far far far harder - the jump is bigger.
Maths had a fair jump.

Different subjects are obviously going to be more difficult for different people - I found Maths not really that hard with a bit of effort, but I never got the hang of Chemistry or Economics. I think that many of the arts subjects are just more accessable to more people, and perhaps more common sense. The other issue is how much theory - i.e. Economics vs Business Studies.

Not taking anything away from those who are just very good at applied type things (especially graphics, which I could never do in a million years).
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 11:08   #11
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Re: well worth a read

Posting to agree with Nod, boris johnson is really overrated, beyond playing the idiot he doesn't say anything interesting.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 12:58   #12
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Re: well worth a read

Boring article written by shit celebrity. Shit people rejoice. I scrolled down the comments and saw this.

Funny! After spending 31 years in Nuclear Physics, I always thought a van der Graaf generator was a van de Graaff. Is it me? I'm 81 now.
Geoff Miller.
Posted by Geoffrey Miller on August 24, 2006 1:38 PM

Says it all really. People read and hear what they want to and disregard any thrust. Its all about point scoring
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 13:07   #13
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Great article.


This is so true. I went to a selective grammar school and took History, Politics and Economics at A-Level. Equally I could have done other such 'advanced' subjects such as Philosophy and Further Mathematics.

No state school seems to offer all of these anymore - which is a great shame. Can Business Studies ever be as academically challenging as Economics? Is Psychology a viable subject in comparison to Philosophy? I don't think so.
Shut up furball.
I went to a state school and my subjects included further maths and economics.

Edit: Just checked and my school offers 29 different A-levels, with a further 7 "Applied A-Levels", whatever the **** that means.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 13:26   #14
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Re: well worth a read

I went to a state school and did further maths. Saying that, the college i went to dont even do calculus asin Pure maths nor mechanics in the maths a-level anymore, whilst when i was there i did 4 pure modules with mechanics and stats. I do believe they are really dumbing down tests, I mean i can see people that have done better than me in results yet i am more intelligent due to the fact I was taught more than they were.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 13:36   #15
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
8) Greek and Latin are almost completely useless unless youre a philosophy/classics student and the fact he mentions them as examples of 'good' things to study betrays his underlying biases
I had Latin for six years in school and I was always in doubt if this subject would be of any use to me in the future. Interestingly enough I now consider it one of the most valuable subjects I had.

What I did not consider back then but what I learned later is that Latin gives you a familiarity and lightness in dealing with Roman and post Roman history. And understanding ideas of that time - and the best way to do that is to translate original sources - makes your access to the whys and hows of Europe's political, social and economical development much easier. Whenever discussing with friends who had no Latin in school I come to realize that they often have difficulties in understanding legal, philosophical, political or religious concepts and contexts existing today which root in the times of the Latin language. This is of course a disadvantage easily made up for by just checking up on the topic in question which takes definitely not as long as learning Latin. Still, knowing Latin gives you a comfortable position for your general knowledge about things European is ceteris paribus broader than that of a person who took French or German instead.

Another aspect is of course the role of Latin in understanding foreign languages. French becomes way easier and my South American friends are always astonished how well I can read their newspapers without actually speaking a single word of Spanish. Since a couple of months I am also professionally closely associated with the medical world and by knowing Latin I had at least a minor clue what the medical staff was talking about!

In essence, in itself Latin is not a very beneficial language to learn but it provides you with the opportunity to have an easier entry into a diversity of fields such as the majority of the European languages, law, medicine, history and philosophy. And by that I regard it as one the most valuable classes I had.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 14:15   #16
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Says it all really. People read and hear what they want to and disregard any thrust. Its all about point scoring
I completely agree with you.

Look at this pathetic act of point scoring that I found:
Quote:
Boring article written by shit celebrity. Shit people rejoice.
What a disgrace that somebody should ignore the salient points of the argument and try to just attack the messanger! particularly when the argument in question is already having a direct impact http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5277556.stm
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 16:18   #17
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
What a disgrace that somebody should ignore the salient points of the argument and try to just attack the messanger![/url]

Its kinda amusing you saying that, it isn't new that some alevels are less suitable for a particular course/institution - general studies.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 16:28   #18
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No state school seems to offer all of these anymore - which is a great shame. Can Business Studies ever be as academically challenging as Economics? Is Psychology a viable subject in comparison to Philosophy? I don't think so.
Seeing as you've studied neither Business Studies, Economics, Psychology OR Philosophy, I don't understand how you hope to support this argument.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 16:40   #19
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Its kinda amusing you saying that, it isn't new that some alevels are less suitable for a particular course/institution - general studies.
General Studies got me into York for my degree! do NOT diss general studies
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 16:43   #20
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Seeing as you've studied neither Business Studies, Economics, Psychology OR Philosophy, I don't understand how you hope to support this argument.
I gathered from what he said that he meant that Psychology and Philosophy are completely different (which they are, Psychology is almost a science) and that Economics is more theoretical than Business Studies, which it is almost by definition of the syllabous. I don't see why he needs to, unless I misinterpreted his comments?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 16:49   #21
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I gathered from what he said that he meant that Psychology and Philosophy are completely different (which they are, Psychology is almost a science) and that Economics is more theoretical than Business Studies, which it is almost by definition of the syllabous. I don't see why he needs to, unless I misinterpreted his comments?
He said firstly that Business Studies isn't as academically challenging as Economics, when he hasn't studied either.

He said secondly that Psychology isn't a viable subject in comparison to Philosophy (viable in the context of what, anyway? Waffling on about theories of the world and life?). He hasn't studied either of those.

Nodrog made a good point when he said comparing subjects on "lol this is better than that" is ridiculous.

My sister is going into year 13 (A2 levels) in September. She's dropped French (from her existing subjects) and is planning on doing her A/S and A2 in Photography instead (in one year). While it isn't necessarily a "classic subject", and my parents aren't particularly keen on the idea, I support her in it. She isn't very academic and doesn't like reading or studying. But she's quite enthusiastic about taking photos and I believe that an A or B in a subject like Photography would be better for her than a C in French.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 17:12   #22
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
He said firstly that Business Studies isn't as academically challenging as Economics, when he hasn't studied either.
But do you really have to? Can't you just assume that it is more challenging to explain the economic interaction of 6 billion people than of the 1.something million working for the Indian railway - probably the world's largest company employeewise. Just like I assume that pheasant tastes probably better than a cup of poo - although I haven't tried either!
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 17:30   #23
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Re: well worth a read

Different subjects are more or less challenging to different people. Maths always came naturally for me, and so did physics, but I really had to work with chemistry (even now at university level I don't work a lot with maths). On the other hand, I worked really, really hard with every linguistic subject I ever had. For me, chemistry is way harder than for instance economy, and german is harder than physics. But how can you say that one is harder to learn than the other in a general sense?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 17:33   #24
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
But do you really have to? Can't you just assume that it is more challenging to explain the economic interaction of 6 billion people than of the 1.something million working for the Indian railway - probably the world's largest company employeewise. Just like I assume that pheasant tastes probably better than a cup of poo - although I haven't tried either!
You've never studied economics or business studies before have you?

Incidentally, I always assumed that business studies was economics for retards, I'm not so sure now though.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 17:52   #25
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
But do you really have to? Can't you just assume that it is more challenging to explain the economic interaction of 6 billion people than of the 1.something million working for the Indian railway - probably the world's largest company employeewise. Just like I assume that pheasant tastes probably better than a cup of poo - although I haven't tried either!
Business Studies and Economics are nearly entirely different subjects.

Economics deals with the whole world of business and money as a whole, nationally and internationally . Business Studies is primarily concerned with different types of businesses and how/why they operate. I've obviously dumbed the definition down there for both.

Trying to compare them and pretend they're "similar" subjects is clearcut sign that whoever is trying to compare them doesn't know much, if anything, about both
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 17:59   #26
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
You've never studied economics or business studies before have you?
I did both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Incidentally, I always assumed that business studies was economics for retards, I'm not so sure now though.
With newer forms like evolutionary or behavioral economics which are used in classical economics as well as business studies they are pretty hard to separate anyways...
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 18:17   #27
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Re: well worth a read

The 'market-place' decides what is valuable or not.

The primary 'consumers' of a levels are the universities and they've made their position clear.

I appreciate Tomkat's passion on behalf of his career and vested self interest; but facts are facts.

I took Theatre Studies at a level. I knew full well that Oxford wouldn't like it and I agree that it is a less academic a level. So I did it as my forth. Academic institutions have declared that they want to see people doing academic a levels - it's not exactly shocking news.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 19:34   #28
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Re: well worth a read

For years universities have failed industry. Graduates have come out of universities without the skills that industry requires, unable to complete simple tasks that would be expected of a graduate.
All this serves to do is broaden that gap. The question should not be "is this A-level useful for the stepping stone (university)" but "is this A-level useful for the end result (industry)".

For this, surely business studies (maybe not in its current form admittedly) is more useful than philosophy or greek?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 19:53   #29
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
For years universities have failed industry. Graduates have come out of universities without the skills that industry requires, unable to complete simple tasks that would be expected of a graduate.
All this serves to do is broaden that gap. The question should not be "is this A-level useful for the stepping stone (university)" but "is this A-level useful for the end result (industry)".

For this, surely business studies (maybe not in its current form admittedly) is more useful than philosophy or greek?
Industry will adapt or die. The countries needs lie with a well educated workforce and should not be dictated by the whim of any particular industry.

That said I have no idea what sources you are claiming for your out-landish statement. An a level in business studies is unlikely to impress any ftse 100 company. A Harvard MBA might. But an a level? Similarly there is no value to an a level in law.

I think you would do well to look at detail rather than make generalised statements about 'industry'. If there are specific recruitment problems please raise them - I'm sure they're solvable. But the country has not come to a halt and 'industry' continues.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:05   #30
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Industry will adapt or die. The countries needs lie with a well educated workforce and should not be dictated by the whim of any particular industry.

That said I have no idea what sources you are claiming for your out-landish statement. An a level in business studies is unlikely to impress any ftse 100 company. A Harvard MBA might. But an a level? Similarly there is no value to an a level in law.
I'm not talking about those at the top of organisations, I'm talking about the operating core, or even middle management - i.e. where the bulk of people go. If employees know what actions of theirs will make the company more profitable and are encouraged to do these, then it follows that companies will be more profitable. It will help them to understand why some instructions 'from above' are given.

Quote:
I think you would do well to look at detail rather than make generalised statements about 'industry'. If there are specific recruitment problems please raise them - I'm sure they're solvable. But the country has not come to a halt and 'industry' continues.
The CBI has been saying for a long time that graduates are coming out of university lacking key skills.
Link: "Employers say new graduates lack key skills".
When talking about universities as a whole it makes sense to 'generaise', as long as these statements are backed up.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:11   #31
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
That said I have no idea what sources you are claiming for your out-landish statement. An a level in business studies is unlikely to impress any ftse 100 company. A Harvard MBA might. But an a level? Similarly there is no value to an a level in law.
Perhaps not on paper - but I'd say that an A-level in Business Studies would be more useful in an interview or presentation situation when applying to jobs, than for instance an A-level in Latin or Physics (keeping with the assumption of wanting to work for a FTSE 100 company).
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:13   #32
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
I'm not talking about those at the top of organisations, I'm talking about the operating core, or even middle management - i.e. where the bulk of people go. If employees know what actions of theirs will make the company more profitable and are encouraged to do these, then it follows that companies will be more profitable. It will help them to understand why some instructions 'from above' are given.

The CBI has been saying for a long time that graduates are coming out of university lacking key skills.
Link: "Employers say new graduates lack key skills".
When talking about universities as a whole it makes sense to 'generaise', as long as these statements are backed up.
Any new employee needs to be trained.

Your generalising helps with nothing. You come accross as implying that Universities should ensure that all graduates know where the coffee mugs are kept on the 3rd floor of KPMG...

P.S. you don't back up a statement by repeating it.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:17   #33
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Perhaps not on paper - but I'd say that an A-level in Business Studies would be more useful in an interview or presentation situation when applying to jobs, than for instance an A-level in Latin or Physics (keeping with the assumption of wanting to work for a FTSE 100 company).
The fact that you need business studies a level to go on being taught in order to have a job aside. What actual evidence do you have to support this statement?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:30   #34
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
8) Greek and Latin are almost completely useless unless youre a philosophy/classics student and the fact he mentions them as examples of 'good' things to study betrays his underlying biases.
I totally agree with laputa, my Latin GCSE has so far provided a far better foundation for my studies than Geography, a universally taught subject. An excellent post by him, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Shut up furball.
I went to a state school and my subjects included further maths and economics.

Edit: Just checked and my school offers 29 different A-levels, with a further 7 "Applied A-Levels", whatever the **** that means.
*shrug*


The other comprehensive schools near me didn't offer them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Seeing as you've studied neither Business Studies, Economics, Psychology OR Philosophy, I don't understand how you hope to support this argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
He said firstly that Business Studies isn't as academically challenging as Economics, when he hasn't studied either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I went to a selective grammar school and took History, Politics and Economics at A-Level.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
He said firstly that Business Studies isn't as academically challenging as Economics, when he hasn't studied either.
A few months after I took up Economics for A-Level, my dad took the Lloyds exams so that he could work there. He picked up a business studies textbook as reference (no, I can't tell you which one it was but it wasn't a GCSE textbook), I glanced through it and to me it looked academically less challenging than my economics textbooks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
He said secondly that Psychology isn't a viable subject in comparison to Philosophy (viable in the context of what, anyway? Waffling on about theories of the world and life?). He hasn't studied either of those.
No, I haven't studied either of these; the word 'viable' was probably the wrong word to use there anyway. However, I typed up a Psychology essay from handwritten notes for a friend in the first year of uni (adding a few linguistic suggestions along the way) and given the 2:1 that she got for it when it was handed back, it didn't appear to be an especially difficult subject. Suffice to say that the essay wasn't exactly a masterpiece.

Meanwhile, a large number of my friends did Philosophy at A-Level. It was impossible not to take a look at what they were working on - and it clearly wasn't easy for them. Most of them reckoned that it was their hardest A-Level subject. Anyway, end of anecdote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
My sister is going into year 13 (A2 levels) in September. She's dropped French (from her existing subjects) and is planning on doing her A/S and A2 in Photography instead (in one year). While it isn't necessarily a "classic subject", and my parents aren't particularly keen on the idea, I support her in it. She isn't very academic and doesn't like reading or studying. But she's quite enthusiastic about taking photos and I believe that an A or B in a subject like Photography would be better for her than a C in French.
Fine by me - I don't contend in the slightest that students should be forced at A2 to continue subjects that they don't want to do. Personally I'm shit at most practical subjects (Art, Music, Drama) but quite strong when it comes to academic 'boring' subjects. However, since I was comparing them on a purely academic basis, I'm not sure how your example really helps.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:32   #35
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Perhaps not on paper - but I'd say that an A-level in Business Studies would be more useful in an interview or presentation situation when applying to jobs, than for instance an A-level in Latin or Physics (keeping with the assumption of wanting to work for a FTSE 100 company).
I suspect that most FTSE 100 companies are looking for applicants with degrees as opposed to those without. As such, isn't their degree subject and its grade likely to be far more important than their A-Levels?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:45   #36
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Any new employee needs to be trained.
But wouldn't it be better if the starting point was a much higher level? So that only those skills unique to that sector/company needed to be taught, instead of having to start from effectively scratch?

Quote:
Your generalising helps with nothing.
It's taking the views of those that have done the research, enquired into what employees think, and using their conclusions.

Quote:
You come accross as implying that Universities should ensure that all graduates know where the coffee mugs are kept on the 3rd floor of KPMG...
I don't know about KPMG, but the Deloitte mugs are in the kitchen if you don't want to use the vending machine.
I'm not really talking about the likes of KPMG though. I don't know the percentages, but I'm talking of those who go into a job that is not a graduate scheme. These are the people who would benefit most from having a basic understanding of how businesses work.

Quote:
P.S. you don't back up a statement by repeating it.
Damn.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:48   #37
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I suspect that most FTSE 100 companies are looking for applicants with degrees as opposed to those without. As such, isn't their degree subject and its grade likely to be far more important than their A-Levels?
It depends what level you're looking at.
In the FTSE 5 (If there was one) would be HSBC.
Do you think cashiers require a degree?
Vodafone would also be in here, do you think those in their call centres need a degree?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:52   #38
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
It depends what level you're looking at.
In the FTSE 5 (If there was one) would be HSBC.
Do you think cashiers require a degree?
Vodafone would also be in here, do you think those in their call centres need a degree?
Since Tomkat was referring to interviews and presentations, I doubt that he was talking about the non-professional staff that keep the companies running.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 20:59   #39
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
But wouldn't it be better if the starting point was a much higher level? So that only those skills unique to that sector/company needed to be taught, instead of having to start from effectively scratch?

It's taking the views of those that have done the research, enquired into what employees think, and using their conclusions.

I'm not really talking about the likes of KPMG though. I don't know the percentages, but I'm talking of those who go into a job that is not a graduate scheme. These are the people who would benefit most from having a basic understanding of how businesses work.
You're reciting a very bad argument made by some business men.

The reason they make this argument is because it is in their interests to shift the cost burden of employee training to the universities. Business men always want to lower their costs wherever they can. Making silly attacks on universities costs nothing and if it works has a huge benefit.

I managed to work all of this out without an a level in business studies.

The fact remains that universities want academic a levels. This is in the country's interest. I find that more compelling than complaints from industry, particularly when industry has managed to potter along quite successfully so far.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 21:05   #40
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The fact remains that universities want academic a levels. This is in the country's interest.
Why?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 22:09   #41
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The reason they make this argument is because it is in their interests to shift the cost burden of employee training to the universities. Business men always want to lower their costs wherever they can. Making silly attacks on universities costs nothing and if it works has a huge benefit.

I managed to work all of this out without an a level in business studies.
You're also 10 years older than the average A-level student. What's your point?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The fact that you need business studies a level to go on being taught in order to have a job aside. What actual evidence do you have to support this statement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I suspect that most FTSE 100 companies are looking for applicants with degrees as opposed to those without. As such, isn't their degree subject and its grade likely to be far more important than their A-Levels?
You're misinterpretating what I meant (probably my fault).

I meant that in most interview/presentation situations when applying to a City job, someone who has done Business Studies will be more adept than someone who is great at writing essays in Philosophy or juggling vocabulary in French. Simply because it's a part of the course so they'd get more practice for it.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 22:28   #42
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I meant that in most interview/presentation situations when applying to a City job, someone who has done Business Studies will be more adept than someone who is great at writing essays in Philosophy or juggling vocabulary in French. Simply because it's a part of the course so they'd get more practice for it.
True, but if they wanted to see how I adapted to unexpected situations and asked me to perform a titration, my Chemistry AS-Level would no doubt stand me in good stead.
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 23:16   #43
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
some random thoughts:

1)
2)
3) "
4)
5)
6)
7) .
8)
9)
10)
11).
(1) yeah
(2) true, but that doesn't necessarily make business/enterprise as important as an academic subject, given that civilization was built without that stuff being an academic subject. much like spoken language, society would certainly collapse without it, but happily the key points are obvious to anyone by the age of 10.
(4) this is perhaps true, but i think you miss that there simply aren't the people available capable of making it 'interesting and beautiful' to teach all levels. society could take some of them away from their work in industry/what have you to make addition/arithmetic beautiful to 6-year-olds, but they've chosen not to. i for one agree with their choice.
(5) you'd be hard-pressed to find any topic that the right person couldn't make valuable and important.
(6) i tend to think of university admissions as being biased towards people who do the work they are told to/are intelligent at present. these do lead toward people liking schoolwork more than others, but i think they also capture 'potential to do well in future' better than most other standards i could easily imagine
(8) yeah that did seem pretty dum
(10) it's hard to respond to this without more information, but are you talking about college, high school, or elementery when you say 'no on should be forced to learn anything'? either way, i don't see as being obvious how schools could do a better job in this area (not that i think they do well, but i don't see how on va about intilling this curiosity)
(11) because the curriculum he designed for undergrads is ubiquitous for college physics courses?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 23:30   #44
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
True, but if they wanted to see how I adapted to unexpected situations and asked me to perform a titration, my Chemistry AS-Level would no doubt stand me in good stead.
Why would a FTSE 100 company want you to perform a titration...?
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Unread 27 Aug 2006, 23:57   #45
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why would a FTSE 100 company want you to perform a titration...?
I refer you to the first half of that sentence. It would be a great test to throw at people on a graduate recruitment programme - give them a set of instructions at both a basic and advanced level and see who copes with it best. Of course, those with chemistry backgrounds would probably do better at it - but they wouldn't be looking at the level of success, they'd look at how you react under pressure.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 00:39   #46
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Re: well worth a read

There is a growing shortage of scientists in America and apparently in the UK.

More and more we are importing our engineers, physists, scientists, physicians, whatever from places like India. Nothing against people from India but it isn''t a hopeful sign.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 00:44   #47
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I meant that in most interview/presentation situations when applying to a City job, someone who has done Business Studies will be more adept than someone who is great at writing essays in Philosophy or juggling vocabulary in French. Simply because it's a part of the course so they'd get more practice for it.
I know what you meant.

I don't see that you have any evidence to support your idea.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why would a FTSE 100 company want you to perform a titration...?
You do not have a clue what you are talking about.

When did you ever interview in the private sector???? How can you pretend to know what questions are asked or what employers want??? I would starve to death if i didn't know what employers wanted. you???? you are merely playing.

Once again I state that I am glad you are trying to defend your career. BUT FFS when I try to talk an employer into interviewing a candidate or offering a job if I said anything about an a level in business studies I'd be laughed at.

I will tell you the truth. There is no a level which is useful for business. At the moment we have academic a levels which the universities want and non academic a levels which no one wants.

It's that simple. No amount of waffle from teachers and people with a vested interest is going to change reality.
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Last edited by Yahwe; 28 Aug 2006 at 00:52.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 00:49   #48
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Psychology is almost a science


*chortle*





(i had to change s****** to chortle cause the ****ing board doesn't like the use of "the n word" :mad:)
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 00:56   #49
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Re: well worth a read

From the original article :
Quote:
Children don't believe it; we all know that the guy who comes top in maths is smart; the guy who comes top in English is smart;
haha, no. I've never even heard of people respecting English as a subject.

Also, I think he might be misunderstanding how grades are assigned. An A grade in maths is not necessarily going to be worth more than any other A grade because the inherent "difficulty" of mathematics (if you can talk about such a thing meaningfully, I doubt you can) is going to be factored into the exam / grading system. This is not to say that all A-Levels are equally valuable (what does that even mean?) - as that's obviously going to depend on the situation. Someone having a A in Physics would hold very little value with me if I was recruiting for a customer service position (it might even stand slightly against them on a subconscious level).

Anyway, I did Business Studies at A-Levels. It actually did serve as quite a good introduction to economics (based on later economics classes I've since taken in my degrees) although obviously it's not as focused since you've got lots of other crap to cover too (e.g. critical path analysis and that sort of thing).

But yeah, perhaps the fact I did Business Studies at A-Level instead of Economics (which my school didn't offer) had an effect on how my application was received at the LSE (my first - and rejected - choice out of the original six applications). But then again it's far more likely that it was my utterly shit personal statement and absolute lack of any sort of extra-curricular activities. Overall, it doesn't make much difference. It'd be nice if all schools offered the same subjects but if you're unlucky enough to be in the disadvantaged sections then I'm sure there's plenty of ways of overcoming it or making up the time. A friend of mine spent another six months after A-Levels doing a stand-alone Economics A-Level so he could get the university place he wanted. It'd have been if he could have avoided that, but it didn't exactly kill him.

One presumes that if you go anywhere decent you're going to be interviewed anyway and therefore these types of rules (i.e. requiring specific A-Levels) are mainly about reducing the strain on admissions (again, I'm presuming).

Of course, overall A-Levels are pretty much worthless, they're poorly designed and form another wretched part of the overall rotten system. Oh yeah and grades demean the human spirit ra ra ra. But in particular they're not going to be of any use in teaching practical skills (like doing presentations) but to be fair they're not really mean to either.

edit : Apologies for duplicating points already made in the thread, I've not read all of it yet.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 01:02   #50
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
From the original article :
haha, no. I've never even heard of people respecting English as a subject.
oh




then maybe you should get out more
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