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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 09:10   #51
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Nondescript Human
Well, you sure left his arguments in ruins.

I'm going to have to call you out on a mildish case of numbers 1-3 and 5, and a blatant, textbook case of number 6.

Israel wasn't occupying Lebanese territory, yet Hezbollah were firing rockets into Israel.
Israel still occupies the Shebaa Farms.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 10:48   #52
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Ste
What do you think about the German army being sent in as a peacekeeping force? I'm sure it wouldn't go down well in Israel.
That's some big discussion around here. Me, personally, I think Israel is a country like any other and thus should play by the rules. On the other hand, german soldiers shooting at jews probably wont look that good in the press.
But I'm not sure this isn't a purely hypothetical discussion anyway, because our army doesn't have the manpower to actually send anyone there. A few thousand soldiers in Bosnia / Kosovo and in Afganistan and a few hundred in Kongo and the coast of Somalia is probably all we can spare anyway, the rest is busy torturing conscripts, drinking beer and running through the woods.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 11:14   #53
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Maybe if the Lebanese government had tried to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel from within their territory then Israel wouldnt have had to take matters into their own hands
This sort of argument just extends back in time, well maybe the Israelis shouldn't have invaded Lebanon in the 80s, well maybe the Lebanese government should have done more to evict terrorists then, well maybe the Israeli government shouldn't have taken their land, well maybe Moses should have gone south and set up camp in some uninhabited shithole in the middle of the Sahara desert instead of stealing other people's land
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 18:10   #54
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This sort of argument just extends back in time, well maybe the Israelis shouldn't have invaded Lebanon in the 80s, well maybe the Lebanese government should have done more to evict terrorists then, well maybe the Israeli government shouldn't have taken their land, well maybe Moses should have gone south and set up camp in some uninhabited shithole in the middle of the Sahara desert instead of stealing other people's land
Amen.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 18:39   #55
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

omfg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5232838.stm
Quote:
"The fighting continues. There is no ceasefire and there will not be any ceasefire in the coming days," he said.

His remarks came hours after Israel declared a partial halt to air strikes on south Lebanon to allow an inquiry into civilian deaths in Qana, Lebanon.
Israel: "hey guys, i'll give you a 48 hour break. Go home and bring help for people in need."
World: "thx Mr Israel"
Israel: "oh wait let me take that back. die die now."

my gf had plans to escape with her family to Damascus. I don't know what they'll do now.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 20:02   #56
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Flavius
Maybe if Israel had released the prisoners then Hezbollah wouldn't have kidnapped Israelis in an attempt to exchange prisoners.

Maybe if Israel hadn't occupied Lebanon for 22 years then Hezbollah wouldn't have emerged.
I posted this in the other thread but people continue to post crap like "ALL THIS FGOR TWO PRISONERS LOL ****ING JEWS PRISONER EXCHANGE AND ALL WILL BE OK" Flavius you display a remarkably naïve view of global politics and your posts seem to be more influenced by your girlfriends origins.

The kidnap of Israeli soldiers was the final straw or as T&F corrected me in the other thread the excuse that Israel needed to go in and remove the 12000 missiles that Hezbollah had acquired from their friends in Iran and destroy a radical militia who’s aim is to destroy Israel. I'm not casting judgement on who’s right and wrong like most of the recent Middle Eastern conflicts it isn’t black and white, blame can be portioned out to everyone, Flavius you and others make out like Israel is warmongering and bombing for sport while the Arabs cover in fear.

Hezbollah is/was making a power play for relevance in Palestine if they did nothing they would have been consigned to life as a one state movement, the longer this drags on for (And the more inept the Israeli military is at killing their leaders) and the more civilians (PR bonus points) that die the happier they'll be. Israel has been remarkably tolerant over the last few years, exchanging prisoners when Hezbollah crosses the border and kidnaps soldiers, ignoring it when Hezbollah crosses the border and kills civilians and ignoring periodic missile attacks but it got to the stage as mentioned above where something had to be done. It’s immensely sad that Lebanon, which was recovering so well has been caught in the middle, (My family has quite long ties to the country, my farther used to spend quite a lot of time in Beirut when it was literally just rubble and I went to University with quite a few Lebanese people who I consider close friends so my I'm hardly some kind of pro Zionist pig dog) but you reap what you sow, Lebanon has tolerated a terrorist group running the South of their country and made no effort to disarm them (Even though it was politically impossible for such a weak government to do so, they made no effort nor did they seek International assistance to do so). It’s a shame to see so many civilians die but it’s fairly hard to fight a precision war when the enemy hides among civilians and fires missiles from civilian areas (Hint: Hezbollah wants civilian casualties, it makes Israel look like the bad guys and them the champions of the Islamic world).

The conflict suits the rest of the Arab world too, Hezbollah is no doubt being stoked on by Syria which wants to regain influence in Lebanon and Iran which wants to strengthen it’s hand in nuclear negotiations with America (For similar reasons as Iran stokes the Iraqi resistance) and increase its regional power and status as the leading Islamic state. The other Arab (Sunni) countries who are worried about growing Iranian influence are quietly cheering on Israel hoping that they give Hezbollah (And by proxy Iran) a bloody nose.

As for Israel other than removing the missile threat they have a government with leaders who are not ex generals, they need to be seen to be able to be tough on threats to Israel, backing down now would make them and Israel look weak and vulnerable, removing Hezbollah would. Their allies in America want to see a terrorist network with true global strike (Which could be unleashed if America ever moved aggressively against Iran) ability destroyed while sending a message to Iraqi insurgents that Iran would leave them high and dry as well.

The point I’m trying to convey is, conflict is in everyone's best interest bar Lebanon, conflict is everyone's fault to some degree including Lebanon, "**** Israel" like it's all their evil doing is stupid.

Solutions: No idea, I’d be inclined in the short term to give Israel is given a few more days to degrade Hezbollah to such an extent that they’re no longer military viable on a large scale then deploy a UN force with a strong mandate to the region to disarm Hezbollah and police the border with Israel, the International community pumps money in to finance the rebuilding of Lebanon. In the longer term Israel should be made to withdraw with its settlers from the Gaza Strip and West Bank (But be allowed to keep areas it needs for defence such as the Golan Heights) and again a UN force should be deployed to protect the border and make sure that Israel can't invade when ever it wants to, assistance should be given to set up a Palestinian state that renounces violence and recognises Israel’s right to exist. Israel should be brought to account for any atrocities it has committed.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 20:24   #57
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Hicks
Israel should be brought to account for any atrocities it has committed.
by whom ?
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 20:27   #58
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Everyone who fights Israel is really terrorists, really.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 20:32   #59
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

International courts ? In the same way that Arial Sharon was over the Sabra massacre before the US got the laws changed so the trial couldn't begin (Without the law changes this time).
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 20:56   #60
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Everyone who fights Israel is really terrorists, really.
I agree.

I don't understand how people completely ignore the death of 700 civilians in 20 days, and agree when Israel says it was in self-defence.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 21:03   #61
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Read
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 21:08   #62
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Flavius
I agree.

I don't understand how people completely ignore the death of 700 civilians in 20 days
The same way you completely ignore the thousands of civilians who die every 20 days in the various African conflicts where your girlfriend doesn't live presumably.
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 21:16   #63
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Hicks
The same way you completely ignore the thousands of civilians who die every 20 days in the various African conflicts where your girlfriend doesn't live presumably.
Sadly enough, she has been through civil war in Liberia, twice, and has been very close to death.

And you? Ever had an AK-47 pointed at your mother?
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Unread 31 Jul 2006, 21:51   #64
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
Interesting read

his first article is more worrying though:

Quote:
Israel is seeking the complete extermination of Hezbollah. Any cease fire would give Hezbollah the chance to regroup and secure new weapons. But in my opinion Israel’s goal cannot be met. For Hezbollah is in possession of some 12,000 missiles (as Israel concedes), the most powerful of which are two-stage rockets. Israel also concedes that these rockets can reach downtown Tel Aviv. It is less well known, and not openly conceded, that some or many of these rockets carry chemical and biological payloads.

For Hezbollah to send WMDs into Tel Aviv or Haifa (Israel’s 2nd and 3rd largest cities) would invite nuclear retaliation.

Yet the closer Israel gets to achieving its goal of destroying Hezbollah, the more likely the WMDs will be launched. Suppose Israel comes close to annihilating Hezbollah to the point when only a few fanatics are left. As they await their turn to die, what would they lose if they launched the WMD missiles? Nothing. What would they gain? The virginal delights of heaven.
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Unread 1 Aug 2006, 15:06   #65
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Flavius
Sadly enough, she has been through civil war in Liberia, twice, and has been very close to death.

And you? Ever had an AK-47 pointed at your mother?
I don't make threads with sweeping judgements "LOL ****ING JEWS IT'S ALL THEIR FAULTS" on one of the most complex situations in the world with undertones of racism based on what side people I care about are on. Nor do I act like I’m shocked and concerned about 700 civilians dying in a fashionable conflict when thousands of others die every year in equally grisly circumstances. I might have a bit more respect for it if I see a thread from you next time it all goes off in Central Africa but I doubt you’ll have any loved ones there or a willing media to push details down your throat to care enough.

I've had my farther shot at by the Syrian army and kidnapped during the Venezuelan coup in the mid 1990s do they count ? I know someone who's had "xx" bad thing happen to them does that make me more entitled to an opinion ?

I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in Hezbollah having WMDs, seems too convenient for Israeli propaganda if they did, they could spin it so they were helping in the war on terror keeping dangerous WMDs away from the West. Nor do I think that Israel is rash enough to nuke Lebanon if they were attacked with a WMD. If they did then the whole world (Including America) would rally against Israel and they would end up losing out, if they didn’t and took it they’d get masses of sympathy from everyone and an International mandate to do what ever conventionally they wanted to do to Hezbollah (Like America post 9/11). The reason Israel maintains a nuclear arsenal isn't for nuking terrorists that would be futile since they are so spread out, nuclear weapons are better against concentrated armies or cities, the reason they maintain a nuclear arsenal is it's an "oh shit" mechanism if they're about to get wiped into the sea by Arab armies (Which in previous decades was a worry) they can nuke the on coming armies.
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Unread 1 Aug 2006, 18:30   #66
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Flavius
Sadly enough, she has been through civil war in Liberia, twice, and has been very close to death.

And you? Ever had an AK-47 pointed at your mother?


you really are talking some emotive crap im afraid, also, may i humble suggest that you tell your GF that moving from a warzone to a warzone wasnt exactly the best bet for peace in the world
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Unread 1 Aug 2006, 19:15   #67
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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you really are talking some emotive crap im afraid, also, may i humble suggest that you tell your GF that moving from a warzone to a warzone wasnt exactly the best bet for peace in the world
Yes I am. I've warned before that I am biased in this issue.

I was just using it as an example of why someone who give importance to human lifes, something a lot of you seem indeferent to.

Sure, people might have died in other parts of the world. I might not have paid attention to it back then. But now I'm seeing Israel committing massacres against the civilian population in Lebanon. I can't help feeling frustrated at this whole thing.

I've read and read all that I can get my hands on to get a better understanding of the situation. My gf even wrote her thesis on the movement, Hezbollah, and met with officials there last year.

Despite whatever emotional ties I might have with the region, one cannot justify the way Israel is handling this conflict, and there is no way to deny that there is a massacre going on.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 13:39   #68
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

hey flavius your muslimnazi's just killed another 18 jews.

:cry:
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 14:11   #69
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by KoeN
hey flavius your muslimnazi's just killed another 18 jews.

:cry:
Hezbollah should stop the ****ing attacks. Innocent people are dieing, not in the same proportions, but it's still unnecessary.

oh and ..

Quote:
Israel under heavy rocket fire

More than 100 Hezbollah rockets slam into Israel killing at least one person. The rocket barrage comes as Israel spread its military campaign to its northernmost point in three weeks of fighting. One rocket landed in the West Bank, Israeli police said, hitting farther south than ever before.
18 != 1
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 16:46   #70
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

flavius, "atleast one" means it could also be 18 (or 19, for that matter).

but anyway i'm happy we agree that the violence should be stopped.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 19:46   #71
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

This stuff (concerning the media's coverage of the warfare) is really interesting, I thought.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 19:58   #72
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
This stuff (concerning the media's coverage of the warfare) is really interesting, I thought.
They don't really seem to answer the point that timestamps on photos can result from photos being posted. That said I wouldn't be surprised.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:19   #73
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
This stuff (concerning the media's coverage of the warfare) is really interesting, I thought.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/greensla...rs_in_leb.html

Read that and weep at what you just believed.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 11:19   #74
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/greensla...rs_in_leb.html

Read that and weep at what you just believed.
What? I'm more concerned with the fact that this one guy seems to scoot around and pick up dead children for effect than the timestamps. Moreover, the idea that I should agree with the Guardian's assessment of the (deplorably) right-wing website is silly.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 11:25   #75
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

They always do that over there though I think. How many funerals with people running through the streets carrying bodies in various Palestinian areas have you seen on tv? I think it's more a cultural thing that happens to be photographed than an "artificial" situation.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 19:37   #76
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

read and read and read

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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 19:46   #77
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
You're getting like Kura posting BBC links. You're also getting like Texan for posting links to articles by people who are unashamedly biased. Your articles would probably carry a lot more weight if you could find centrists who agreed with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia on counterpunch.org
CounterPunch is a biweekly newsletter published in the United States that covers politics from a left-wing perspective.

....

Steven Plaut has written articles in the conservative paper FrontPage Magazine and Jewish Press where he has been critical of what he perceives to be a bias against Israel and the USA. ([4] and [5]). In particular he has charged Cockburn and St. Clair (the editors) with publishing anti-American, anti-Israel and anti-Semitic views. In May 2006, James Taranto, editor of the Wall Street Journal's online Opinionjournal.com website, referred to Counterpunch disparagingly as a "moonbat site." [6]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia on Robert Fisk
Fisk has received widespread praise on the political left and criticism from the right, the latter in particular for an alleged anti-American and anti-Israeli bias in his emphasis on reporting the ills done to the Middle East by the West from the Great War onwards, and the former for taking a position against the war in Iraq and occupation of Palestine.

....


Guardian columnist Simon Hoggart (also a former Northern Ireland reporter), has leveled criticism at Fisk for being, "dreadfully pessimistic" since 9/11, because of his predictions that, "the (actions of the) West (in response to 9/11) was about to bring total disaster upon its own head." In support of this pessimism, he also cites claims brought forward in commentary submitted by Fisk over the years, specifically that, "a group of British soldiers lost in the desert," meant Desert Storm would fail, and that the bombing campaign during the Kosovo crisis would, "only make things worse" [5]. Any reasoning and/or context behind Fisk's claims is not addressed.

While acknowledging "his brilliant and vivid reporting", Hoggart subsequently concludes that Fisk's pessimism reveals judgement that is, "not just mistaken, but reliably mistaken. [6]."

A New York Times review of Fisk's book, The Great War for Civilisation stated that Fisk is "least informed about Israel," pursues his agenda "nearly to the exclusion of the pursuit of straight journalism" and allows his points to be "warped by his perspective." It is no wonder, the reviewer added, that Osama bin Laden recommended Fisk's reporting as "neutral."[3]

Fisk has also been criticized for asserting that journalistic neutrality is "no longer relevant" to the Middle East and that instead journalists are "morally bound ... to show eloquent compassion to the victims." [7]
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 19:49   #78
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

THE NEW YORK TIMES?


Edit: The wikipedia article on Robert Fisk is fairly disgraceful particularly where it talks about the occasion when he was assaulted in afghanistan. Having actually read that particular section of his book not more than a few months ago I can assure you the selective quoting is almost sickening.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 19:49   #79
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
You edited this one into your post.


It's quite a good article and it refers to a fairly competent organisation in Human Rights Watch. However, the key thing here is that most posters here don't disagree with you that Israel may be taking things too far. The rest of your ranting and raving is where it's going wrong.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:24   #80
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

This will be my last post in this thread since it's simply become a case of you posting what ever newspaper articles you find that support your point of view without any analysis or thought about them, congratulations you managed to find editorials by people supporting Lebanon in one of the most complex situations in the world. Anyone who wanted to prove the opposite could link a bunch of right wing publications talking about the nasty Arabs with no comment, heck people could just link you Stormfront and say see white people are the best.

The Robert Frisk article is spot on but he's basically stating the obvious, a UN/NATO force going into Lebanon suits Israel it's what they want, they'll get a secure Northern border and hopefully Hezbollah disarmed, a UN force going into Lebanon is also going to get shot to bits as Hezbollah doesn't want to be disarmed, it will likely end in disaster and I hope none of our soldiers are involved. The second one seems dubious at best, a lot of what he passes off as fact is opinion or anecdotal, for example the 15 year old boy who was killed, Israel violating the border, Shebaa Farms which is not part of Lebanon it's part of Syria, the UN has rejected Lebanese claims that it ever was theirs. He also offers no solutions, preferring that we should acknowledge who is right and wrong about Israel's beginning and not talk about realistic solutions. Guess what we can't just wind up Israel nor can we have a single state for both if them, it would quickly descend into civil war, Israel may have no right to exist (In my opinion it doesn't) but it does and acknowledging that it does or doesn’t won’t help anyone. The situation there needs a realistic solution, the only one that has been put forward is the two state solution with Israel pulling everything out of the West Bank and Gaza in return for recognition and a guarantee of it’s safety, releasing all their prisoners once peace is achieved (As in Northern Ireland) and the Palestinians renouncing violence (Disarming Hamas and Hezbollah) and having huge International aid to build a credible state, tough deal on the Palestinians ? Yes but it's the best solution I've seen proposed to a tough situation. I'm not even going to comment about the Human Rights Watch one.

What is Robert Frisk's book like Jonny ? I may get it when I'm finnished what I'm reading at the moment.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:37   #81
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Having actually read that particular section of his book not more than a few months ago I can assure you the selective quoting is almost sickening.
I think they're actually quoting an Independent article though aren't they? Although that may not change your point particularly.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:48   #82
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

While I refuse to engage in a debate into who is at fault as I pretty much despise either side of the coin for what they are doing, because no matter how many civilians are killed on either side, it is the reality of war and that is a horrific terrible thing.

I recently read this (NB: I read the opinion section for a different slant on world affairs when the relevant articles arise, some of it is probably not of interest, I've put the relevant quote below) and thought that if there is one thing that we as the western nations must do if we are to be anywhere near effective on the war against whatever is meant to be bad about the arabic world, it's engage ourselves with and support the Lebanese people as much as possible and resist taking any kind of 'side'.

Quote:
it is the only Muslim country that has held fast to the tradition of thousands of years, of putting commerce first and religion second......The Muslims of Lebanon live their religion as the Christians of Europe do – we know that our religion should also be our way of life, but in reality, we put it in a box and don't let it interfere with the rest of our life. We don't let it take over. There's a lot to be said for this, as long as it doesn't lead us to cause harm to others.
This is the bit that struck me the most. The people we share the most common ground with in probably all of the middle east, are the ones we have been manifestly neglecting here. Quite honestly, if we can't succeed in Lebanon, I don't see us succeeding anywhere else in the middle east. If we help the Lebanese to help themselves and develop a positive relationship with them, we can send a message out to others who might be skeptical towards us that maybe, we aren't all that bad and that there is some kind of tangible benefit to working together and trading with us. Instead we've been letting a massive opportunity go to waste. Why we've let years of progress go down the toilet in 2 weeks is beyond me.

I can only agree with Flavius that this is a tragedy of massive scale. I totally disagree with his way of thinking.

And as we're talking about UN peacekeepers. I think the last thing we need is another force being seen as a 'crusader army' in the middle east, especially in that particular location. What we really need is to empower the Lebanese to deal with the problem as they see fit.

I wasn't sure if I should post this. I decided to be brave as I thought some of it was stating the obvious, so be kind :/
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:13   #83
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I totally disagree with his way of thinking.
What way of thinking?

Sure I can be a bit emotional when expressing my views, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong when I say Israel is to blame for this conflict in Lebanon. It is Israel's fault that civilians are dieing in Lebanon. It is Israel's fault that Hezbollah has reasons to attack it.

I don't see this conflict ending by disarming Hezbollah or Hamas. Doing so would only incite more anger among the Arab people (mostly palestinians) who would feel that the US and Israel were destroying their only guarantee of survival.

On the other hand if Israel stops the aggressive foreign policy and focuses on defending its (legal) territories, it would remove any reasons for the existance of the resistance movements (note the word 'resistant') and would decrease popular support for these. In the end it's popular support that leads to the creation and growth of resistance movements.

and Hicks, as I said before, I'm reading as much as I can in order to keep myself informed. I've been following this and this threads, and been digesting every piece of information that is throw at me.

I would kindly ask of you to post any articles you believe could shed more light into this issue.

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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:43   #84
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

I see your way of thinking as simply venting anger at one party, that being Israel and trying to chuck heaps of the blame onto it, with articles from a less than balanced perspective (Fisk excepted). Some of your posts verge on rant and bile on the issue, although I can appreciate the emotional perspective you must have on this, and I'll let that go. To me looking from a perspective that allocates 'blame' on either party for what is happening is, as JonnyBGood has highlighted, entirely circular and pointless.

I don't believe for a minute that these islamic organisations care a jot about the lebanese people or territory - if you do so, I think you are a bit naive. If they did, they would never have done something to provoke such a reaction which was a nailed on certainty to cause such mass and tragic loss of life. To me their issues in reality seem to be more about the legitimacy of Israel existing in any sense.

I agree that the idea of popular support for terrorists is the key to ending this and that this is the only way to truly 'disarm' them. As i've said, the key to this is empowering the Lebanese. We can do this on two fronts - diplomatically by encouraging restraint on the Israeli side so that the Lebanese can manage their own affairs and financial/logistical/trade support for the people of Lebanon to renew prosperity and undermine any kind of sympathy there might be for Hezbollah, make the most of the many things we actually have in common and actually make them feel engaged with the western world while being part of the middle east. Such a relationship is a starting point to cordial relations with Israel and a possible resolution to this conflict.

Areas like Iraq and Palestine are truly running before we can walk.

I enjoyed your post though.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 22:41   #85
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
What is Robert Frisk's book like Jonny ? I may get it when I'm finnished what I'm reading at the moment.
Interesting and long (my hardback version is 1600 pages I think). It's difficult to accuse Fisk of bias because if you actually read what he says about his book he acknowledges that he is trying to present a certain viewpoint of the Middle East. That doesn't really say anything though, can we just write off everything written in this thread as biased in one way or another? I'd rate it highly but I wouldn't really advise it as the first thing someone should ever read on the middle eastern situation (that said I don't think that's what it would be for you so yeah I'd recommend you go ahead and read it). Incidentally the chapters can nearly be read as stand-alones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I think they're actually quoting an Independent article though aren't they? Although that may not change your point particularly.
When he talks about that in his book he quotes that article completely to describe the situation. And no, it doesn't really.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 13:27   #86
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

From CNN: See photos of a Beirut neighborhood before and after Israeli airstrikes.

I cry when I see that
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 14:36   #87
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Flavius
Put some gaudy christmas lights on the buildings and a few filthy armenians in the streets, and that second picture would be just like Moscow!

I'm almost getting homesick* now


*or whatever's it called when it's not home
[edit]
Too many cars there, and it's summer (this is where I lived)
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...04554&t=k&om=1
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 18:17   #88
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

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Originally Posted by Flavius
It is Israel's fault that Hezbollah has reasons to attack it.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 19:23   #89
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
I'm almost getting homesick* now


*or whatever's it called when it's not home
Nostalgic?
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 20:49   #90
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
Looks like a slightly botched version of Changing Rooms/Ground Force to me!
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Unread 5 Aug 2006, 00:44   #91
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I don't believe for a minute that these islamic organisations care a jot about the lebanese people or territory - if you do so, I think you are a bit naive.
Hmmm. I'm not sure about this. This is not to say that there is not a fair amount politicking going on, and "extremists" of whatever type might see their cause as more important than individual people or territories, but I think Hezbollah are primarily a resistance movement. They're heavily religious, but I wouldn't even say they were a religious movement per se. Consider the following quote from Richard Pape, an American author :
Quote:
In writing my book on suicide attackers, I had researchers scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and the biographies of the Hezbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. Shockingly, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were from leftist political groups like the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union. Three were Christians, including a female high-school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.

What these suicide attackers — and their heirs today — shared was not a religious or political ideology but simply a commitment to resisting a foreign occupation. Nearly two decades of Israeli military presence did not root out Hezbollah. The only thing that has proven to end suicide attacks, in Lebanon and elsewhere, is withdrawal by the occupying force.
Source

Now it might be that the above information is out of date, or just irrelevant because there is some grand leadership which is entirely Islamic and entirely undevoted to Lebanon. But I would say that we would be making a mistake if we assumed the organisation as a whole is this way inclined. The groups which are formally Islamic (Hamas / Hezbollah) are the ones resisting Israel. Therefore, the people who want to fight Israel will join them, even if they are secular leftists, or Christians or whatever. In WW2 not every member of the Italian or Yugoslav partisans were communists (in fact, the majority weren't) but a lot of the time, if you want to join the fight against fascism, the only ones doing anything useful were the reds, and so you joined up - regardless what you thought about Stalin.
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Unread 5 Aug 2006, 12:02   #92
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

In that case I'll accept that some might care about territory, as the occupation of Lebanon clearly gives Hezbollah 'support' of some form or another which encourages people who do care to join. I'm highly doubtful about the leadership, though - to me their aim is still pretty much hurt Israel at any cost regardless of what is being occupied and what isn't.

As for regards for life - well I think my point stands unless they are very very stupid, given that in the preceding week of all this, Israel had done just the same in the gaza strip after their soldier was kidnapped.

I can only think that the point about communists in WW2 is probably very true (I haven't done any research on this). If we bothered to support the Lebanese state and gave them some form of authority, then people would stop joining these ridiculous organisations.
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Unread 5 Aug 2006, 12:04   #93
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Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Looks like a slightly botched version of Changing Rooms/Ground Force to me!
No decking.

Oh wait
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