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Unread 24 May 2006, 15:13   #151
Chika
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

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Originally Posted by Hude
They are?
Hopefully. I would wrather be surprised by a kick in the ass, than know it was coming, and still get kicked in the ass.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 15:18   #152
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
im not suprised at all of the stupidity of the pa player
if all of them were like you then yes the pa player would be quite stupid
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Unread 24 May 2006, 15:19   #153
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno
Thank you for elaborating. But I think you're wrong when it comes to people not caring if they themselves can't claim the throne. Remember hirr?

Xeno
We are not talking about 'hirr'

We are talking about ND, Angels and Insomnia, who will pretty much do what's best for their ranking if they can't win or can't see a way of winning.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 15:27   #154
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

My instinct says that 1up probably shouldn't win from this position - there's still plenty of time left and it is now obvious that 1up will win if they are not stopped. It's not impossible for any of the alliances in the top 5 to win - they would have to eliminate 1up first, and fight amongst themselves. Looking at the membership numbers, roid counts and scores it's clear that these alliances outnumber and outgun 1up and therefore should be able to stop them.

Some reasons why I'm probably wrong:

1) Planet NAPs. Experience has shown that these are very effective, and most alliances don't have the discipline to ban their members from taking planet NAPs. There is also a free-rider problem here: individuals may choose to take planet NAPs without telling their alliance. They can probably avoid hitting 1up unless their alliance adopts to 1up-only target list and monitors attack participation. How many will do that?

2) Lack of ambition. Any of the alliances ranked 2-5 could emerge as winners, but do they believe it? They probably don't, so their ambition switches from gaining the top alliance rank to protecting their top planets. This is probably best achieved through planet NAPs with the winning alliance (presumably 1up). Even if taking planet NAPs is not official policy of the alliance, it should be obvious to their members that, if they're not directly attacking 1up, they should privately pursue a NAP.

3) Lack of organisation. It's possible that none (or not enough) of the other alliances have the organisational capacity to stop 1up. They will need to give their members a steady stream of viable 1up planets to attack, and they will need to coordinate this between 2 (or more) alliances. It's not impossible, or even particularly difficult, but it requires some dedication to the task from individuals in each alliance.

4) The necessity of teamwork. This is a problem that gets worse as the round goes on - the fact that attacking big planets requires multiple attackers on the same wave, due to the size of the target's fleet. Team attacks are always harder to arrange, and people who are too small to hit any of the targets will often stop attacking altogether if the alliance isn't offering any alternative targets. On the other hand, if they do offer alternative (easier) targets, they may find their other members preferring them instead. Again, it requires organisation and discipline to solve this problem.

5) Lack of trust. Alliances may be unwilling to cooperate because they believe that they will be betrayed by their partners. This problem gets bigger as more alliances cooperate, but such a large cooperative effort may be the only way to succeed. This can be summed up with the question "Why should we help Omen to win?". Obviously, any alliance trying to stop 1up is doing so because they believe that they can win, which means they will have to fight the others who also believe so. Alliances may be unwilling to put long-term worries aside in order to solve the short-term need to stop 1up.

6) Misjudgements. Individual judgements are often flawed and alliances may simply differ in their views about the future of the round. For example, some alliances may believe that Omen should be able to slow 1up down alone, or that a limited group of cooperating alliances may be able to do so without further help. They may therefore avoid cooperating, believing that there is already a 'balance' when in fact 1up remain untroubled. Of course, the reverse may be true: 1up may already be facing a considerable challenge, and further intervention from other alliances may tip the balance too far and favour Omen (as an example) too much.

7) Fatigue. 1up have gained a substantial advantage by avoiding playing a 'normal' round until now. As I understand it, they have only just started running defence and performing the normal administrative duties. Since these are very people-intensive tasks, 1up's supply of people willing and able to perform these duties is higher than in other alliances. However, I don't think that fatigue is at its worst point yet; the other alliances should still have a supply of decent MOs and BCs to last a few weeks, though they are going to have to increase their levels of effort now.

Overall, I think 1up 'should' lose from their current position. Attempting to take the crown so early in the round is arrogant, though that arrogance is justified. The other alliances should be capable of stopping them, though I have my doubts about whether they will.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 16:30   #155
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob

1) Planet NAPs. Experience has shown that these are very effective, and most alliances don't have the discipline to ban their members from taking planet NAPs. There is also a free-rider problem here: individuals may choose to take planet NAPs without telling their alliance. They can probably avoid hitting 1up unless their alliance adopts to 1up-only target list and monitors attack participation. How many will do that?
Yeah, that part is extremly annoying, but it also provides the HC's from other alliances with a relevant question, are you willing to let players agree to planetnaps for personal gain, while 1up can decide to roid the crap out of the rest of the alliance?

The answer in my case is a resounding no.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 16:45   #156
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Yeah, that part is extremly annoying, but it also provides the HC's from other alliances with a relevant question, are you willing to let players agree to planetnaps for personal gain, while 1up can decide to roid the crap out of the rest of the alliance?

The answer in my case is a resounding no.
Having a 1up planet nap does not prevent someone defending their alliance vs 1up. In fact it allows them to defend vs 1up without any danger of 1up hitting them while their defence is out - or fleet-catching their returning defence fleet. Planet napped planets can defend vs 1up outside their own galaxy as much as they want without ever being attacked by 1up. If any 1up member ever lands on one in an unauthorised attack then that member would be kicked from 1up and the person he landed on assisted in roiding them.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 17:50   #157
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

thought you said that 1up didnt have any planet naps until now...

and if you missed my point completly earlier i say it again, untagged 1up planets had massive planetnaps with lots of ppl in various allies to give them a smooth ride til now

now talking about 1up planetary naps in return are just arogant m8
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Unread 24 May 2006, 17:54   #158
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
thought you said that 1up didnt have any planet naps until now...
he hasn't said anything that contradicted that.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 18:11   #159
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
They are only 3 million ahead (although maybe there's still a few more to add), with a 2k roid gap.
Er 10 million with a 20k roid gap
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Unread 24 May 2006, 18:30   #160
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
thought you said that 1up didnt have any planet naps until now...

and if you missed my point completly earlier i say it again, untagged 1up planets had massive planetnaps with lots of ppl in various allies to give them a smooth ride til now

now talking about 1up planetary naps in return are just arogant m8
everytime you post you make baby jesus sad! :/
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Unread 24 May 2006, 18:35   #161
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
you werent in the meeting, you dont know what was said, you dont know who was willing to go for 1up, and at what stage, and who wasnt. So unless you were a fly on the wall during that meeting then clearly you dont have an insight into what went on. Please dont say we have no balls without knowing the full story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Meeting logs might demonstrate you had some willingness, it doesn't change the fact that collectively you didn't do anything though (which is his point by the way, he doesn't give a shit about willingness).
Precisely. I go away for an afternoon and someone answers your point for me


I see a complete lack of motivation from the alliances that aimed for #1. I won't even consider Angels because they have failed, again, to show any interest in truly influencing the round let alone winning it themselves. Galaxy attacks will not win you a round.

Omen believe that there's little point in them going for 1up since ND/Ins will just hit them anyway. They are pretty bitter as far as I can tell. Looking at Sandmans today, I can't really blame them for being willing to settle for 2nd. The massive chunk taken out of them today epitomises this.

NewDawn and Insomnia have controlled the political situation this round, not anyone else. They co-operated early on - and until ND unilaterally ended this co-operation, they hit Omen to kingdom come. In doing so they screwed up politically - because when they needed Omen, Omen weren't going to come running. There have been major trust issues which ND/Insomnia were not willing to resolve. They were singularly responsible for these issues, yet were unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to solve them.


NewDawn and Insomnia, wiser heads clearly did not prevail. You ignored 1up until it was too late. You focused on a lesser threat in Omen and must have been oblivious to the power that 1up had gathered while being left alone by the top alliances. Value will win this round, and by not taking roids off the top 1up planets you handed the round to them. You blamed Omen at every turn instead of looking at your own abilities and responsibilities. You failed in these responsibilities with the decisions you made.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 19:06   #162
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
You blamed Omen at every turn instead of looking at your own abilities and responsibilities. You failed in these responsibilities with the decisions you made.
How exactly is it their "responsibility" to attack 1up? You make it sound like its their PA civic duty...
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Unread 24 May 2006, 19:14   #163
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska
How exactly is it their "responsibility" to attack 1up? You make it sound like its their PA civic duty...
They want to play with the big boys, so why don't they act accordingly?
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Unread 24 May 2006, 19:14   #164
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

I go away for one day and return to find 1up at #1 and Omen with 25% roid loss. I think that's the most an alliance has ever lost in all the rounds i have played.
Now let's see what Omen will do.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 19:22   #165
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
They want to play with the big boys, so why don't they act accordingly?
Exactly. They've claimed to have the desire to take #1. That means stopping another alliance, i.e. 1up, from taking #1. Beating on Omen did not fulfil that aim - it was 1up their attentions needed to be aimed towards.


And Gio2k - Subh lost 25% in Round 15 iirc.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 19:46   #166
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Precisely. I go away for an afternoon and someone answers your point for me


I see a complete lack of motivation from the alliances that aimed for #1. I won't even consider Angels because they have failed, again, to show any interest in truly influencing the round let alone winning it themselves. Galaxy attacks will not win you a round.

Omen believe that there's little point in them going for 1up since ND/Ins will just hit them anyway. They are pretty bitter as far as I can tell. Looking at Sandmans today, I can't really blame them for being willing to settle for 2nd. The massive chunk taken out of them today epitomises this.

NewDawn and Insomnia have controlled the political situation this round, not anyone else. They co-operated early on - and until ND unilaterally ended this co-operation, they hit Omen to kingdom come. In doing so they screwed up politically - because when they needed Omen, Omen weren't going to come running. There have been major trust issues which ND/Insomnia were not willing to resolve. They were singularly responsible for these issues, yet were unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to solve them.


NewDawn and Insomnia, wiser heads clearly did not prevail. You ignored 1up until it was too late. You focused on a lesser threat in Omen and must have been oblivious to the power that 1up had gathered while being left alone by the top alliances. Value will win this round, and by not taking roids off the top 1up planets you handed the round to them. You blamed Omen at every turn instead of looking at your own abilities and responsibilities. You failed in these responsibilities with the decisions you made.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 20:10   #167
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
A summary of the round
I couldn't agree with your views more. Brilliantly summarized, it's good you spat it out so I don't get flamed for it, eh?
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Unread 24 May 2006, 20:28   #168
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Why try to make things more odd then it is?

Who cares if ND ends relations with Ins, who cares if Angels are crap etc….

Every HC (at least around top 5 alli) with some self-respect should “jump” with joy now when the opportunity shows it self. Everything is out – 1up have finally tagged up, Omen have dropped to second and….it’s still time to battle it out for top spot!

This is a war GAME (notice game in capitals) and they ow it to their members to try to take first place!

Who will remember/care if the alliance ends up 2 or even 5 place!!!???

Make a block, try yourselves do whatever to make these last weeks enjoyable.

Why all this speculations about who/what/when/if etc…..

FFS, it’s a game on the Internet!

More wars and less politics and maybe this INTERNET GAME will kick off a bit, even attract some new players.

Sometimes I get the feeling Planetarion have become an arena where HC:s plays around to boost their egos instead of doing their jobs for the community and their alliance members….


I even talked to some 1up people who actually welcomed some incoming for a change to get some “old time action”…..

I say: lets ALL go to war and have some fun!
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Unread 24 May 2006, 20:32   #169
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

still two weeks left. let's not award 1up the 1st prize just yet. yes they have the lead, but nothing is settled till last tick. it's not like last round, when ascendancy had all their score in XP. this time, 1up can still go down.and they know it. (hence forum idle-which is sooo not like them?)
as for ins/nd, they just did what they have been doing since tick 300-ish.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 21:38   #170
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

I do not think that at this current point we should haggle who should've/would've/could've but didnt. We all know the situation at hand and people need to figgure out what can THEY do in order to change it.
As far as i understand, the only ones satisfied with where they are right now is 1up... So we are going to sit here, post to no end and send small waves at eachother untill this round ends ? Or should we make an impact on the situation.
Mind you, its no longer the time when entire PA could have sent gobs of waves top gal, and every one of those waves was defended (remember those gal. statuses people used for banners in latter rounds?)
I am just an Omen peon right now, but i am sure Omen will not idle for the rest of this round... And ND/InS/whoever, will NOT win this round by solely attacking Omen. Make your conclusions.

/ramble
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Unread 24 May 2006, 22:00   #171
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
I think im right Omen is also playing for second..

If i remember correctly you guys wasnt gonna launch at 1up, unless we did it 6 ticks before you.

Why would such nice guys as us flak for you? What is in it for us? Surely we would be retalled even before you started to hit em.

Instead of actually doing something you guys buggered off and did nothing, even tho you knew about it.
Have a feeling you should read this furball.

Omen haven't been doing anything this round, just trying to get everyone to fight their war.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 22:07   #172
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Exactly. They've claimed to have the desire to take #1. That means stopping another alliance, i.e. 1up, from taking #1. Beating on Omen did not fulfil that aim - it was 1up their attentions needed to be aimed towards.


And Gio2k - Subh lost 25% in Round 15 iirc.
You should learn what fluid politics means.

Maybe omen have been so terrible shit that we have decided that we will rather screw over omen than attacking 1up?

Who knows? You atleast dont.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 22:10   #173
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Hey, I've got a great idea. Why don't you guys go have a meeting to decide whose fault it was that 1up didn't get hit?
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Unread 24 May 2006, 22:18   #174
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
NewDawn and Insomnia have controlled the political situation this round, not anyone else. They co-operated early on - and until ND unilaterally ended this co-operation, they hit Omen to kingdom come. In doing so they screwed up politically - because when they needed Omen, Omen weren't going to come running. There have been major trust issues which ND/Insomnia were not willing to resolve. They were singularly responsible for these issues, yet were unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to solve them.
ND and Insomnia cooperated at most 4 or 5 times to hit Omen. This was spread over 2 periods, the first time I remember 2 consecutive nights when we cooperated and then Insomnia pulled out. ND continued to hit Omen gals but didn't fully target them. A week or so later we cooperated again for 2 or 3 nights I think to hit Omen properly again. After that ND went back to hitting Omen gals for a while and then just went to hitting fat gals.

This was at least a week ago, if not longer (I can't remember exact dates but I think it was probably nearer 2 weeks).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furball
NewDawn and Insomnia, wiser heads clearly did not prevail. You ignored 1up until it was too late. You focused on a lesser threat in Omen and must have been oblivious to the power that 1up had gathered while being left alone by the top alliances. Value will win this round, and by not taking roids off the top 1up planets you handed the round to them. You blamed Omen at every turn instead of looking at your own abilities and responsibilities. You failed in these responsibilities with the decisions you made.
A week or so ago ND were approached by Omen to hit 1up. By this stage Omen were a good 5-10mil score ahead of us and 5k or so roids ahead. ND were willing to help hit 1up as long as Omen started it, even if only 1 or 2 ticks before us.

To me this seemed reasonable as Omen were obviously in the stronger postion and would benefit more by taking out the nearest competition. However Omen completely refused to do anything unless ND launched 6 ticks before them, claiming that this was because they couldn't trust us (despite not having dealt with us politically up to that point). Whilst a lack of trust may have been a partial reason anyone with half a brain could see that what Omen really wanted was for 1up to start setting up and launching retals on us before they launched.

As far as our responsibilities go I think a HC's responsibility is to its members, not to the rest of the PA community. If we had agreed to hit 1up whilst being behind Omen by a fair distance what would we have achieved? A lot of incoming that would put us even further behind Omen and effectively eliminate any chance of finishing 2nd or even 3rd, let alone 1st.

On a slightly different note I feel Omen finally sealed a 1up victory for this round (as is obviously the most likely result at this moment) by deciding to launch about 50 fleets on our biggest member within 2 days. This was the reason ND decided to hit Omen last night. Had those 50 fleets been directed at, say, 1up's second biggest planet (at the time not in tag) then the situation now may well be very different)
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Unread 24 May 2006, 22:21   #175
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I couldn't agree with your views more. Brilliantly summarized, it's good you spat it out so I don't get flamed for it, eh?
I think your alliance is as guilty as NewDawn or Insomnia, if not more.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 22:26   #176
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

1up were handed a big advantage this round as soon as Insomnia and ND started teaming up on Omen(so yeh really early).

Do you seriously think its ok to team up and concentrate solely on an alliance for 2 weeks or whatever, then turn round a day later and come begging for help to hit 1up, and actually expect their help? Or did INS/ND just crap it and realise they were hitting the wrong target all along and came out of desperation once they realised what 1up were up to?
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Unread 24 May 2006, 22:40   #177
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneColourRed
1up were handed a big advantage this round as soon as Insomnia and ND started teaming up on Omen(so yeh really early).

Do you seriously think its ok to team up and concentrate solely on an alliance for 2 weeks or whatever, then turn round a day later and come begging for help to hit 1up, and actually expect their help? Or did INS/ND just crap it and realise they were hitting the wrong target all along and came out of desperation once they realised what 1up were up to?
I don't know where you got your information from but it is very flawed.

Firstly (as I said in my post just above) ND cooperated with Insomnia for 4-5 nights max to hit Omen and I don't think there was a night where ND solely hit Omen planets while not cooperating with Ins. Secondly ND never asked anyone to hit 1up. Omen asked us to help them (again, as I said just above). We were willing to but they wanted us to act as flak to draw defence and retals, rather than launching at the same time.

In my opinion ND and Ins didn't hit Omen hard enough or long enough. If we had taken Omen completely out of the running then both ND and Ins would be in a much stronger position then they currently, and with more strength politically than the position that any of the top alliances are in now.

As it was Omen were always the alliance in the position that benefitted most from 1up being hit (from when poeple knew how much of a threat 1up were) and therefore imo it should have been up to them to act on it, not the job of the other alliances to act as flak for them.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:07   #178
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I don't know where you got your information from but it is very flawed.

Firstly (as I said in my post just above) ND cooperated with Insomnia for 4-5 nights max to hit Omen and I don't think there was a night where ND solely hit Omen planets while not cooperating with Ins. Secondly ND never asked anyone to hit 1up. Omen asked us to help them (again, as I said just above). We were willing to but they wanted us to act as flak to draw defence and retals, rather than launching at the same time.

In my opinion ND and Ins didn't hit Omen hard enough or long enough. If we had taken Omen completely out of the running then both ND and Ins would be in a much stronger position then they currently, and with more strength politically than the position that any of the top alliances are in now.

As it was Omen were always the alliance in the position that benefitted most from 1up being hit (from when poeple knew how much of a threat 1up were) and therefore imo it should have been up to them to act on it, not the job of the other alliances to act as flak for them.
You may think that my informatinon is flawed but i think you are not being entirely truthful with your side of the story to try and hide your own alliances deficiencies/mistakes.

The real facts are that most of this discussion is really meaningless atm. What matters is what alliances are now going to do about the situation. I hope that ND/INS arent going to settle for fighting for #2 which is the way it looks atm. If this happens it will mean that Omen wont get the chance to go after #1 because we will be too busy having to fight you two(again).
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:14   #179
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

It appears Omen just sucks bad when it comes to politics.
They were the ones in the lead, they had the most to gain from 1up being hit, they asked for it.
But somewhere they expected Ins/ND/Angels to run flak for them while they avoid the retalls and pick up easy roids from 1up. The HC of Ins/ND/Angels would have been pretty damn stupid if they accepted that caus it would mean handing over Omen an easy victory and taking losses themself...

And now we see them whining on this thread that the other alliances refused to hit 1up when they should really be looking at themselves.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:52   #180
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
Firstly (as I said in my post just above) ND cooperated with Insomnia for 4-5 nights max to hit Omen and I don't think there was a night where ND solely hit Omen planets while not cooperating with Ins. Secondly ND never asked anyone to hit 1up. Omen asked us to help them (again, as I said just above). We were willing to but they wanted us to act as flak to draw defence and retals, rather than launching at the same time.

As it was Omen were always the alliance in the position that benefitted most from 1up being hit (from when poeple knew how much of a threat 1up were) and therefore imo it should have been up to them to act on it, not the job of the other alliances to act as flak for them.
So in short you guys never asked anyone to hit 1up, but Omen would've had to ask others to do it and also attack first taking the hits of obsiviously quite numerous 1up retals that they are known for. Also knowing that according to Gate a new alliance shouldnt be able to win a round, we're still handed pretty heavy responsibilities when it comes to ensuring that 1up doesnt win it either.

Any alliance with any intel about 1up's average value skyrocketing over anyone else and also aiming for the top spot would have equal benefit out of hitting 1up, or was someone really naive enough to believe that 1up wouldnt emerge on top like this? But of course if #1 spot is of no interest then i suppose hitting 1up isnt all that attractive choice either.

I dont know who thinks ND has much room to complain about us hitting Gate knowing what his opinion is about us aiming for #1 spot and also since you guys have been hitting us rather often this round with cooperation of another top5 alliance. It was also nice to retal our actions against Gate coincidentally just after Insomnia and 1up have just launched major incomings on us
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:52   #181
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
ND were willing to help hit 1up as long as Omen started it, even if only 1 or 2 ticks before us.

To me this seemed reasonable as Omen were obviously in the stronger postion and would benefit more by taking out the nearest competition. However Omen completely refused to do anything unless ND launched 6 ticks before them, claiming that this was because they couldn't trust us (despite not having dealt with us politically up to that point). Whilst a lack of trust may have been a partial reason anyone with half a brain could see that what Omen really wanted was for 1up to start setting up and launching retals on us before they launched.
Hand on your heart. Do you honestly think Sid and everyone else at 1up would respond to incomings on the basis of who attacked two hours before who?

What were you saying about half a brain? I'm joking, but not really.

I'd like to highlight something else. (Obviously now you know 1up did not have any military officers to reply with, which is somewhat comical) I think you greatly overestimate the ability of any alliance to retaliate on receiving unexpected incomings. 1up aren't going to ruin your round in six hours let alone two.

It's impossible to win with that shit mentality you say both NewDawn and Omen share.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:52   #182
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Having a 1up planet nap does not prevent someone defending their alliance vs 1up. In fact it allows them to defend vs 1up without any danger of 1up hitting them while their defence is out - or fleet-catching their returning defence fleet. Planet napped planets can defend vs 1up outside their own galaxy as much as they want without ever being attacked by 1up. If any 1up member ever lands on one in an unauthorised attack then that member would be kicked from 1up and the person he landed on assisted in roiding them.
By agreeing to a planetnap you are basically telling your own alliance that you dont care what the HC of your alliance is saying and that you in general ignores them. If there was a large quantity in an alliance having a planetnap with another alliance you would force that alliance's tactics by making sure that specific alliance would not be at full strength if it decided to attack you.
That is one of the reasons why a planetnap is very bad and why I will have zero tolerance for anyone in my alliance taking advantage of this.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:54   #183
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Surely that's a list of reasons as to why planet naps are good.
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:55   #184
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
By agreeing to a planetnap you are basically telling your own alliance that you dont care what the HC of your alliance is saying and that you in general ignores them. If there was a large quantity in an alliance having a planetnap with another alliance you would force that alliance's tactics by making sure that specific alliance would not be at full strength if it decided to attack you.
That is one of the reasons why a planetnap is very bad and why I will have zero tolerance for anyone in my alliance taking advantage of this.
I am with the viking on this one
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Unread 24 May 2006, 23:58   #185
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I will like to encourage all alliances to say to their members to refuse planetnaps with 1up or any other alliance for that matter. Planetnaps is an insult to the alliance hc the member who agrees to a planetnap is in. By having a planetnap to an alliance, you technically tell your HC that you dont agree that the HC is the only one who should be handling politics for your alliance. If an alliance wants a nap with another alliance the HC of that alliance should approach an alliance hc, not a random member.
The first time he posted it or the second?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 00:08   #186
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

no.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 00:14   #187
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Surely that's a list of reasons as to why planet naps are good.
Not for the alliance whom has people with planetnaps.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 00:20   #188
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

First, thank you to Mek for supplying me those logs. They were very informative and provided numerous insights - from which I generated most of my post.


To many people Omen's request that the others launch before them may seem strange. At first glance, it does. However, Omen had no reason to trust ND and Insomnia. When organising an attack on 1up, it was equally likely (from their point of view) that ND/Ins would launch on Omen once Omen's fleets were out, as opposed to launching on 1up as they were supposed to.

ND and Insomnia chose to hit Omen or Omen galaxies repeatedly this round. Omen could hardly be expected to have anything in the form of goodwill towards those two alliances. The request to launch early was one of trust. If they were willing to trust Omen they should have launched early, accepted the problems it would bring on the first night of attacking and known that Omen would bear the brunt of any retals anyway - in the long term. Omen made it clear in the meeting that it would be business as usual once the trust issue had been resolved.

Omen can settle for second. Second is a respectable result for a new alliance, one that has fought against two alliances for much of the round, one restricted by those alliances from attacking the eventual winner.

But what of ND and Insomnia? Insomnia have found their feet and will finish the round. They've played a full round with the big boys and held together well. In contrast, ND already had experience fighting at the top. I hope that in hindsight, the NewDawn HC will reflect on their mistake in refusing to prove to Omen that they would be honest partners in an attack on 1up. Because that is what you did.

Paddy, bwtmc summarises nicely. Omen have been 1up's only threat for over a week now. Any attack would have been on Omen - it would have made no sense to attack someone who isn't threatening you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
As far as our responsibilities go I think a HC's responsibility is to its members, not to the rest of the PA community. If we had agreed to hit 1up whilst being behind Omen by a fair distance what would we have achieved? A lot of incoming that would put us even further behind Omen and effectively eliminate any chance of finishing 2nd or even 3rd, let alone 1st.
A block of Omen, NewDawn, Insomnia and Angels (who eventually got involved) could have crushed 1up, especially with the information we know now.

Once 1up were out of the picture, NewDawn and Insomnia could have taken down Omen together and then scrapped themselves over 1st place. NewDawn should believe that it would have won this battle. It would not have been easy. Nothing ever is. However, I feel that you owed it to your members to try.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 00:25   #189
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Hand on your heart. Do you honestly think Sid and everyone else at 1up would respond to incomings on the basis of who attacked two hours before who?

What were you saying about half a brain? I'm joking, but not really.

I'd like to highlight something else. (Obviously now you know 1up did not have any military officers to reply with, which is somewhat comical) I think you greatly overestimate the ability of any alliance to retaliate on receiving unexpected incomings. 1up aren't going to ruin your round in six hours let alone two.

It's impossible to win with that shit mentality you say both NewDawn and Omen share.
But he didn't say that. ND offered Omen 2 hours before, which as you would say is fair. Omen wanted ND to launch 6 hours before, which I think is plenty of time to launch a retal. 1up have players have lived off the counter for years, and he never knew they had no MO's., so I think it's a reasonable assumption to make. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think his opinions if not well founded at least attempt to justify ND's behaviour in that situation.

While there's still massive charges of inaction to be answered, I can't look at the situation that Paddy offered and see how it wasn't fair.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 00:39   #190
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Hand on your heart. Do you honestly think Sid and everyone else at 1up would respond to incomings on the basis of who attacked two hours before who?

I'd like to highlight something else. (Obviously now you know 1up did not have any military officers to reply with, which is somewhat comical) I think you greatly overestimate the ability of any alliance to retaliate on receiving unexpected incomings. 1up aren't going to ruin your round in six hours let alone two.
Having organised raids on 1up before when they weren't expecting it I know just how quickly they can react. In previous rounds 1up have been able to change plans within a couple of hours and be retalliating incs within 2-3 ticks of heavy targetting. Ok in hindsight the lack of military officers would have made this very difficult for 1up to do but I still think they would have been hitting us within 6 ticks. 1up might not ruin a round in 6 hours but they can sure as hell ruin a night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
To many people Omen's request that the others launch before them may seem strange. At first glance, it does. However, Omen had no reason to trust ND and Insomnia. When organising an attack on 1up, it was equally likely (from their point of view) that ND/Ins would launch on Omen once Omen's fleets were out, as opposed to launching on 1up as they were supposed to.
What you don't seem to realise is that ND had as little reason to trust Omen as Omen had to trust ND. We had been hitting each other a fair amount that is true and therefore both sides were wary of each other. However as there had been no political dealings before this then neither side had more reason to trust or distrust the other. As I've said, ND were willing to launch 1-2 ticks behind Omen on 1up. This would have let us confirm what was happening without there being enough time for 1up to completely focus on Omen that night (and as bwtmc said, in the long run 1up aren't going to be bothered about who hit them 2 hours before). However Omen wouldn't launch unless ND launched a full 6 ticks ahead of them. This was ample time for a half strength 1up to launch retals on us before Omen had even launched their attacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Paddy, bwtmc summarises nicely. Omen have been 1up's only threat for over a week now. Any attack would have been on Omen - it would have made no sense to attack someone who isn't threatening you.
In most cases I would agree with you there. However in the situation as it was I don't believe 1up would have hit Omen straight away. They would have known they could cope with Omen 1v1 so it would have made more sense to try to get rid of the alliances helping Omen first. If they knew they were going to get heavy incs from 1up what was the point of continuing to attack? We were already behind Omen before getting 1up incs. The only reason for us to continue hitting 1up would have been
a) If we hurt them so bad on the first night that we knew it would be over quickly (not likely) or
b) We wanted to help Omen win
I think 1up are better tacticians than to automatically hit the alliance that are closer to them in score. If we had continued attacks after pressure then of course 1up would have had to switch to Omen but I don't think it would have been very likely that we would have continued.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 00:45   #191
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
But he didn't say that. ND offered Omen 2 hours before, which as you would say is fair. Omen wanted ND to launch 6 hours before, which I think is plenty of time to launch a retal. 1up have players have lived off the counter for years, and he never knew they had no MO's., so I think it's a reasonable assumption to make. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think his opinions if not well founded at least attempt to justify ND's behaviour in that situation.

While there's still massive charges of inaction to be answered, I can't look at the situation that Paddy offered and see how it wasn't fair.
I believe that the 6 tick offer was probably reasonable. However, I haven't been on the receiving end of ND/Insomnia's attention to leave me as worried about a backstab as Omen clearly were.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's easy for us to post with perfect knowledge of how events would have unfolded. Nevertheless, I would have tried. I would have forced 1up's hand rather than letting them dictate how the round unfolded. Last night/today worked perfectly for Sid. He had a great plan and executed it to the letter. It was the rest of you who let him.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 00:53   #192
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
Having organised raids on 1up before when they weren't expecting it I know just how quickly they can react. In previous rounds 1up have been able to change plans within a couple of hours and be retalliating incs within 2-3 ticks of heavy targetting. Ok in hindsight the lack of military officers would have made this very difficult for 1up to do but I still think they would have been hitting us within 6 ticks. 1up might not ruin a round in 6 hours but they can sure as hell ruin a night.
One ruined night? God knows we've all had bad nights. With appropriate preparation you would have been able to survive a difficult night.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
What you don't seem to realise is that ND had as little reason to trust Omen as Omen had to trust ND. We had been hitting each other a fair amount that is true and therefore both sides were wary of each other. However as there had been no political dealings before this then neither side had more reason to trust or distrust the other. As I've said, ND were willing to launch 1-2 ticks behind Omen on 1up. This would have let us confirm what was happening without there being enough time for 1up to completely focus on Omen that night (and as bwtmc said, in the long run 1up aren't going to be bothered about who hit them 2 hours before). However Omen wouldn't launch unless ND launched a full 6 ticks ahead of them. This was ample time for a half strength 1up to launch retals on us before Omen had even launched their attacks.
It would have made no sense for Omen to leave ND in the lurch. The difference in score between the two of you was steadily increasing - and if it wasn't for 1up, Omen would have coasted to 1st. However, 1up stood in Omen's way, and they knew that they would need your help to take down 1up. I fail to see how taking out 1up would not have been in your interests - because Omen wouldn't have called off the hits as soon as they passed them. They would have needed to grind 1up right down to stop them coming back. At that point, you could have played your own hand against Omen.

You gave Omen no reason to believe that they would not be backstabbed by alliances with a history of attacking them. That was why nothing ever took place, and why the universe sits the way it does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
In most cases I would agree with you there. However in the situation as it was I don't believe 1up would have hit Omen straight away.

snip

The only reason for us to continue hitting 1up would have been
a) If we hurt them so bad on the first night that we knew it would be over quickly (not likely) or
b) We wanted to help Omen win
I think 1up are better tacticians than to automatically hit the alliance that are closer to them in score. If we had continued attacks after pressure then of course 1up would have had to switch to Omen but I don't think it would have been very likely that we would have continued.
You fail to recognise your own abilities. The combined forces of ranks 2-5 could have blown a major hole in 1up within a few nights. You would have had the opportunity to arrange mass fleetcatches on 1up planets, preventing those retals. There were probably 250-300 fleets at the block's disposal - and no alliance can hold up against that every night. Again, why not try?
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:02   #193
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Omen can settle for second. Second is a respectable result for a new alliance, one that has fought against two alliances for much of the round, one restricted by those alliances from attacking the eventual winner.
You must be pretty funny.

Fought against 2 alliances for the most of the round?

5 nights did we attack together on omen, and rest have been gal raids.

ND for that mather have hadd incs all round, from omen's flak.
Almost every second day have they launched at us.

So dont come here and say that omen have hadd a hard start round.
They have basically kept themself out of any war, and just raided gals all round
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:09   #194
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
To many people Omen's request that the others launch before them may seem strange. At first glance, it does. However, Omen had no reason to trust ND and Insomnia. When organising an attack on 1up, it was equally likely (from their point of view) that ND/Ins would launch on Omen once Omen's fleets were out, as opposed to launching on 1up as they were supposed to.
I don't see a "you're 2nd, if you want 1st you take the initiative" position being a problem. I would never have accepted Omen's offer in a million years, for reasons i'll explain below and which respond to your next post. To my knowledge Omen have got others to do their work for them on several occasions and I doubt ND are going to let another alliance take liberties like that.

Quote:
ND and Insomnia chose to hit Omen or Omen galaxies repeatedly this round. Omen could hardly be expected to have anything in the form of goodwill towards those two alliances. The request to launch early was one of trust. If they were willing to trust Omen they should have launched early, accepted the problems it would bring on the first night of attacking and known that Omen would bear the brunt of any retals anyway - in the long term. Omen made it clear in the meeting that it would be business as usual once the trust issue had been resolved.
So one second, they wanted help and proof of trust. How does this build together for any kind of team building relationship. This is just shooting yourself in the foot.

Quote:
Omen can settle for second. Second is a respectable result for a new alliance, one that has fought against two alliances for much of the round, one restricted by those alliances from attacking the eventual winner.
Quite frankly, considering it's been 1up or Omen for some time, I doubt ND HC give a shit what position they settle for.

Quote:
But what of ND and Insomnia? Insomnia have found their feet and will finish the round. They've played a full round with the big boys and held together well. In contrast, ND already had experience fighting at the top. I hope that in hindsight, the NewDawn HC will reflect on their mistake in refusing to prove to Omen that they would be honest partners in an attack on 1up. Because that is what you did.
You do not ask for 'help' and demand that you earn 'trust'. Either you want assistance or you don't. That means you attempt to compromise.

Quote:
Paddy, bwtmc summarises nicely. Omen have been 1up's only threat for over a week now. Any attack would have been on Omen - it would have made no sense to attack someone who isn't threatening you.
bwtmc didn't summarise anything nicely - he misread Paddy's post. Omen's best strategy in this situation if they were going to give bad offers and not secure ND cooperation (I'll wager they were better off trying to persuade ND, rather than ask for ND's help on their own conditions) was actually to hit 1up and out them and make their threat swiftly apparent and to lock them in a prolonged conflict, as it would have shown their commitment while highlighting the thread that 1up posed. From my knowledge of ND HC, they decided that it was better to let Omen hang if they weren't going to offer something that didn't involve ND/Ins doing the legwork.

Quote:
A block of Omen, NewDawn, Insomnia and Angels (who eventually got involved) could have crushed 1up, especially with the information we know now.
And might still do so now.

Quote:
Once 1up were out of the picture, NewDawn and Insomnia could have taken down Omen together and then scrapped themselves over 1st place. NewDawn should believe that it would have won this battle. It would not have been easy. Nothing ever is. However, I feel that you owed it to your members to try.
In fairness, ND haven't complained an inch about this thus far on the forum. We've had Keizari crying on AD about the problem for some time, yet he did absolutely nothing as Omen are an alliance well able to take 1up (but you've glossed over this) and force them out of their tag. If you just want to maintain the status quo, give really bad offers and pretty much attempt to deprive your own alliance of victory. Hitting 1up for ND/Insomnia on the Omen offer of 6 hours before would simply have allowed Omen to backtrack, pick off either and fence to victory by building on a roid lead during a painfully long drawn out conflict and letting the stones pay off and unlike previously, you can't mount an XP chase to make up lost ground if the clock is ticking.

There's only one issue I agree with bwtmc on: the whole idea of trust is shit. Either you want to deal with 1up or don't and if both sides are incapable of cutting a deal to launch simultaneously to counter a gigantic threat, then they probably deserve to be fighting over 2nd. It's why I find the Omen offer proposterous. Either they wanted to work with ND, or they didn't. In my opinion, ND made a critical mistake by not blocking the universe from the start to insanity and grabbing an easy win that way. It might be a shit way of winning, but it would have been effective.

All 3 alliances have lacked any kind of pro-activity and hence are all pretty much sunk. They're all equally guilty. This round has been defined by a lot of faffing about, missing the obvious and an utter lack of desire to do more or less anything. I can't say I'll be sorry to see it go, it's been absolutely dreadful to play and watch - at times i thought round 5 was better. Strangely the winners aren't to blame.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:16   #195
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

We had flak? They launched at u every other night?

We stayed out of the wars?

Ur post is completrly wrong.

-edit- reply to spitfire
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:20   #196
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Unless you're in Ascendancy, in which case we can't be bothered to make NAPs for you. Do it yourself you lazy bum.
Members showing some initiative themself ftw!
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:22   #197
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
In most cases I would agree with you there. However in the situation as it was I don't believe 1up would have hit Omen straight away. They would have known they could cope with Omen 1v1 so it would have made more sense to try to get rid of the alliances helping Omen first. If they knew they were going to get heavy incs from 1up what was the point of continuing to attack? We were already behind Omen before getting 1up incs. The only reason for us to continue hitting 1up would have been
a) If we hurt them so bad on the first night that we knew it would be over quickly (not likely) or
b) We wanted to help Omen win
I think 1up are better tacticians than to automatically hit the alliance that are closer to them in score. If we had continued attacks after pressure then of course 1up would have had to switch to Omen but I don't think it would have been very likely that we would have continued.
Paddy is 100% correct in his conclusion. If, for example, Omen and ND (or Insomnia) hit 1up at the time when that was on the cards then 1up would have 100% retaled on ND (or Insomnia) not Omen. I'm not sure he appreciates all of the reasons why, however.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:26   #198
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

To those assuming 1up couldn't sort attacks or respond to incs because of no MOs I think I may have inadvertently misled you. 1up had noone running defence calls but we've always had half a dozen people with responsibility for running attacks. We didn't get all of our roids by initiating them.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:49   #199
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
thought you said that 1up didnt have any planet naps until now...

and if you missed my point completly earlier i say it again, untagged 1up planets had massive planetnaps with lots of ppl in various allies to give them a smooth ride til now

now talking about 1up planetary naps in return are just arogant m8
Doubtful. It's more likely that sertain players buddypack made them safe from sertain alliances. Since any alliance who's worth anything don't attack their own gals out of greed. There are other fishes in the sea. Enemies in gals u don't got own members in. Attacking galm8s of your alliance members for no apparent reason is just lame. Unless there is a war declared, there is no reason to, and such an attack might even cost u some good loyal members.
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Unread 25 May 2006, 01:52   #200
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Re: 1up's not-ingame members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
To those assuming 1up couldn't sort attacks or respond to incs because of no MOs I think I may have inadvertently misled you. 1up had noone running defence calls but we've always had half a dozen people with responsibility for running attacks. We didn't get all of our roids by initiating them.
Well, over the last 6 rounds, you've shown the community you're very disorganised at things like arranging attacks and offenses

In fact, the only real round 1up have done badly is when everyone's jumped on them from the start, I think? (Round 15 springs to mind).
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