Thé WaC/Legion split

[Salomo]

since i don't wanbt to spam letos thread this started in with off-topic stuff, this new thread on this with the relevant quotes from the other thread (http://pirate.planetarion.com/forum/...hreadid=152972)

Originally posted by Dragoon
/me grins sheepishly

I'm going to enjoy proving the exception to your rule here, Leto.

My loyalty had always been to the group from the 17th Legion since day one. Through good times or bad, though I suppose such is to be expected from alliance leaders. Thankfully, most of those times were good. The only other time I had my finger in the pie of another alliance was with the Concordium, as many are well aware. Willzzz was already a member, so he got most of us invited by round two for the matter of protection. Some of us were more active in WaC than others. I personally couldnt be bothered to be much more than dead weight with my mind focused already on Legion matters. And in the end, it was apparent to whom all those Legion members were truly loyal to, as well.

So here you have an example of an extremely small alliance using one of the largest and imposing names from early rounds as a springboard for their own success. You dont see much of that lately because I think this game's lost alot of trust between fellow players. Reverting back to your original point with this that players are in it for themselves and themselves alone. I wont deny that Legion "used and abused" Concordium protection for our own gain. It actually makes me chuckle when I think about it. But we had a good group, that worked together for the gain of the group.

Ranting aside, I truly wish the game today had more setups like that as opposed to the quick-to-form Adalente's and MDK's who are convinced they're the solution to winning the next round. But this old man's seen too much to not be convinced the old ways are best.

Originally posted by Salomo


i think thats the first time i see an ex-Legion command dude from back then publically admit that on the boards. Back then it was allways said WaC had grown overbloated, the legion people didn't feel at home anymore, etc.

[Salomo]

Originally posted by Dragoon
You're misinterpreting what I'm admitting to, I think.

Yes, we split from WaC when the 'ship was sinking' so to speak. Yes, alot of us were there because WaC offered that big name protection. But many misinterpret our "deviousness" surrounding Legion's cutting of all ties with WaC.

I know Willzzz had friends in the original (round one) Concordium, and that his loyalties may have been split to some extent in the beginning. I got the feeling that he had mixed feelings about Legion working independantly from Conc/WaC, but when it comes down to it, Legion was told specificly in r1 that Conc. didnt recognize us as a seperate organization (being a cluster alliance), so we would recieve no special positive or negative treatment. This attitude didnt change in r2, when WaC command were informed that we were still together, little more than a group of close friends quite similar to a battlegroup in today's PA.

The fact of the matter is that WaC's inability to aknowledge us as being a force in PA at all (At the time, the concept seemed pretty distant to us as well) was part of their undoing - with regards to our recruitment from their ranks later on. The only time WaC truly aknowledged Legion's significance was a few weeks before all the turmoil started. I gather that they noticed many of their high ranking members also belonged to this one faction, and they wanted to know more about us; if we would be a threat. Well, it had sure taken them long enough.

Around the same time, we had been tossing around the idea of getting further involved in WaC, to become a WaC "Battlewing" and set an example for the micromanagement scheme they were planning which would supposedly solve their bloating problem. A proposal was drafted, put forth to the command, and a resolution worked out. We were "approved" as a battlewing, something that was as in-name-only as my position as the head of that battlewing. Nothing changed in the alliance structure, no powershifts, just a load of crap formalities.

This is one of the biggest regrets that we've had, and many know it. Why? Well, it makes it impossible to deny that we were connected with WaC formally. Most make this statement assuming that we were formed from WaC ranks, and then pulled a WP/Titans type of split. And thats simply not true. Furthermore, the one change that did occur after these formalities was WaC HC extending their influence. Immediately they wanted to have direct control over what we were doing. The original proposal outlined nothing more than a reprisentative from us (myself) to give regular reports on what we were doing, and to work with WaC in coordinated attacks and defense for increased efficiency. They had changed their minds, it seemed, and we werent happy with that. Especially since WaC were busy beating on already dead alliances, while we were seeking after fresh meat. A common goal which we would later share with Fury.

Shortly after, Apok went on that famous ranting & bitching spree of his, demanding that all ships stand down for several days, and that every member email him planetary status to make sure that fleets were grounded. I liked Apok, but this was an obvious sign of desperate HCs struggling to gain control that had been lost. I was never too bothered by these demands as others were, and I think most Legionaires shared my viewpoint. The fleet grounding didnt go over well with the majoirty of WaC members, however. Players started leaving WaC, most of the rest were grumbling now, and we in Legion command were already grumbling about WaC command trying to run our alliance already.

So after five days, we declared our re-independance from WaC. (Yes, not even a week. ) Many took this opportunity to resign from WaC completely. I personally had been so permanently innactive in WaC throughout the round that I never mailed my status or formally resigned. I was there for the protection. Alliance hopper? No. I had my alliance all along, but they refused to recognize it.

Hope that clears things up. : )

I fail to see what i could misinterpret there....

You, as in the majority of Legions R1 members, joined Conc to use it for protection (using willzzz as door opener?). Then you wanted more power and independence from WaC, at first wing/battlegroup status, later even more independence, and started recruiting from within WaC's top people. . - Correct so far?

Now i'm quite positive that WaC had a one-alliance-only policy, so there are two options: You joined as individuals and thereby stated you have no other alliance, or joined all together in a sort of merger. From the fact that WaC refused to aknowledge you (as you wrote) i assume even if it was a merger, nothing about any different status for legion members was agreed on. Hence every Legion member that joined was basically the same as any Conc/WaC member. - Still correct so far?

You still stuck around together and in a way became an ("illegal" or informal) alliance within WaC. At some point you figured you should have more rights than the average memberand wanted to be aknowledged as a seperate part within WaC and be granted special rights (to be aknowledged at least as partially independent, to be largely free of WaC HC controll, etc.). You got granted your surfacial wish to become a Battlewing, but your real wish, a power shift towards you, was not fullfilled. Around that time you prolly had allready started recruiting, and from the structure of WaC i could well imagine that your new battlewing status helped you recruit even more. - Correct me where i'm wrong here please

When you had enough of WaC's top members on your side to be big enough to survive on your own (in a strong alliance with Fury) and spotted weakness within WaC you left them, taking a large part of WaC's top people with you that had never been in the original legion.

To sum it up: You joined under pretense that you joined as individuals (or would at least not demand more rights than the normal member), constantly worked on increasing your power, leeched protection and top members from your alliance, and then dumped them when they were weakening, consecutively roiding your former alliance mates, whos protection and top members had brought you to were you were then.

1. Does my interpretation differ from yours except in the point of view?

2. Had you been WaC HC, what would you have done differently besides not letting the legion people join at all? Would there have been any way to stop you from leeching off of WaC short of actually handing over total controll over WaC to you (which by the end i assume would not even have been enough since you allready had many of the best WaC people under your controll)?

3. At what point did the political side actually kick in? I.e. when did Legion start negotiating with fury, in how far and when did Legion try to focus WaC's attention and firepower on bluetubas, which more or less was the only other alliance at that time besides WaC and fury that might have become some sort of threat (iirc they still had some big membersand the other alliances were largely too small and undeveloped to be any kind of threat)?

[Grendel]

Salomo u are completly wrong.

I cant talk on how Kain regarded things, but when I joined the Concordium in rd1 my loyalty was to that alliance. Hell the entire 17thLegion fought to further Concordiums glory, we were a major contribution to their war machine fighting b0rk, c7, the joker, defending desertfox, moridin.

When rd2 came, we decided to continue legion as an attack wing, there was no eta difference launching in or out C, so it worked fine.
We build a fortress in C4, many of the bigger Legion members came from this cluster and were recruited on our recomendation into Conc (Krolle, fred, sidewinder, ...).

Its not until things began to go horribly wrong within WaC that I for one first to began to shift my loyalty to Legion as an actuall alliance.
People that were in WaC back then know that we did try to work within the system, making several posts on the conc boards, MrX becomming a HC member, integrating Legion as an attack wing.

At this time Legion already had a large portion from the big concordium members, this was before there was any talk of a split.
In the following days, things just changed for the worst. Its only then it was decided we should go alone together with Mostly Harmless.
Note that at the time most of the legionnaires kept dual alliance membership, we didnt want to destroy WaC in anyway. And after we fought off the attack on WaC and us by ipc/nd/sk/ufx/..., I think we regarded eachother as allies.

After VtS beat SK and UFX to a bloody pulp we wanted to attack a bigger target, Fury and or Bluetuba. But WaC was still occupied with killing ND and the others to be of any assistance.
So Fury was approached to help us attack BT. It is actually half a miracle that we trusted eachother enough to pull of the attack on BT. VtS launched 1 tick before Fury and I remember us franticly scanning the big Fury gals to see if they would launch.

The success of the attack brought Fury and VtS together, us allying was actually a reaction to the growing hostility from WaC towards Fury and the fact that WaC decided to forbid dual alliance membership, forcing a lot of people to leave.
It wasnt after WaC started to defend BT that we decided to end our nap, the Concordium disbanded a few hours after and the rest is history.

According to me, the Legion/WaC split wasnt a devious plan to gain power, but a reaction of several events that took place. Besides I doubt anyone who wasnt in the concordium core in rd1 can truelly understand how most of us felt with the actions of wac in rd2.

Nothing is black and white in PA, especially not alliance politics. Hopefully this version of the story offers a different view, or so I may hope.

[Duke Leto]

Originally posted by Grendel
Salomo u are completly wrong.

I cant talk on how Kain regarded things, but when I joined the Concordium in rd1 my loyalty was to that alliance. Hell the entire 17thLegion fought to further Concordiums glory, we were a major contribution to their war machine fighting b0rk, c7, the joker, defending desertfox, moridin.

When rd2 came, we decided to continue legion as an attack wing, there was no eta difference launching in or out C, so it worked fine.
We build a fortress in C4, many of the bigger Legion members came from this cluster and were recruited on our recomendation into Conc (Krolle, fred, sidewinder, ...).

Its not until things began to go horribly wrong within WaC that I for one first to began to shift my loyalty to Legion as an actuall alliance.
People that were in WaC back then know that we did try to work within the system, making several posts on the conc boards, MrX becomming a HC member, integrating Legion as an attack wing.

At this time Legion already had a large portion from the big concordium members, this was before there was any talk of a split.
In the following days, things just changed for the worst. Its only then it was decided we should go alone together with Mostly Harmless.
Note that at the time most of the legionnaires kept dual alliance membership, we didnt want to destroy WaC in anyway. And after we fought off the attack on WaC and us by ipc/nd/sk/ufx/..., I think we regarded eachother as allies.

After VtS beat SK and UFX to a bloody pulp we wanted to attack a bigger target, Fury and or Bluetuba. But WaC was still occupied with killing ND and the others to be of any assistance.
So Fury was approached to help us attack BT. It is actually half a miracle that we trusted eachother enough to pull of the attack on BT. VtS launched 1 tick before Fury and I remember us franticly scanning the big Fury gals to see if they would launch.

The success of the attack brought Fury and VtS together, us allying was actually a reaction to the growing hostility from WaC towards Fury and the fact that WaC decided to forbid dual alliance membership, forcing a lot of people to leave.
It wasnt after WaC started to defend BT that we decided to end our nap, the Concordium disbanded a few hours after and the rest is history.

According to me, the Legion/WaC split wasnt a devious plan to gain power, but a reaction of several events that took place. Besides I doubt anyone who wasnt in the concordium core in rd1 can truelly understand how most of us felt with the actions of wac in rd2.

Nothing is black and white in PA, especially not alliance politics. Hopefully this version of the story offers a different view, or so I may hope.

You also forget that hirr was at war with WaC at the time too, and this was the eventual straw that broke the proverbial camels back.

(trying to keep as serious a face as possible)

Seriously though, even though we had WaC incoming every day, we found that they had serious chinks in their armour, for nobody would actually dare attack WaC back then... when we did it, it actually caught a few of them by surprise... the retals were hell, but we bloodied a fair few of them...

It was amazing the arrogance of the people who wore the WaC tag back then, they felt that it shielded them from any aggression whatsover, and that they could launch, check at eta 1 and then roid and allow ships to come back before even looking at their accounts...

WaCjr planets were a nice delicacy for us, as they were basically noobs who were given a tag like a get out of jail free card.

Not until the Great Wars and the smashing of Tuba and WaC was this truly exposed, as the lean and mean players had all graduated to Legion and Fury and elsewhere, and the core of WaC were all tag hiders and defence whores.

This is just my enemy interpretation.


Leto

[Axis_WLF]

sedition was a good fight to, after We Are Concordium

[Scorpio]

Grendel, it was called UXF, United Xanadu Federation
(And we weren't a pulp, else i would not have been asked to join your alliance . I'm not denying we were utterly ineffective as an attacking force though.)

[Tis]

Originally posted by Grendel
Hell the entire 17thLegion fought to further Concordiums glory, we were a major contribution to their war machine fighting b0rk, c7, the joker, defending desertfox, moridin.

Minor note. I could be wrong, but I dont recall 7:21 ever getting incoming from 17thLegion, tho we had constant ( ineffective ) Conc incomings from their core galaxies.

I also dont recall attacking you lot, tho it was something we had discussed mid/late round as a response to a Conc sneak attack. It was discarded because, by the time we actually started getting Conc incoming, you had closed the gap enough that our losses in taking the cluster would have been far more than we could afford.

[MAdnRisKy]

so let me get this right.

WaC/legion = Legion/Titans?

*grin*

[Axis_WLF]

Grrrrrrrrrr no lol not quite.

[Salomo]

Originally posted by Grendel

After VtS beat SK and UFX to a bloody pulp we wanted to attack a bigger target, Fury and or Bluetuba. But WaC was still occupied with killing ND and the others to be of any assistance.
So Fury was approached to help us attack BT. It is actually half a miracle that we trusted eachother enough to pull of the attack on BT. VtS launched 1 tick before Fury and I remember us franticly scanning the big Fury gals to see if they would launch.

The success of the attack brought Fury and VtS together, us allying was actually a reaction to the growing hostility from WaC towards Fury and the fact that WaC decided to forbid dual alliance membership, forcing a lot of people to leave.
It wasnt after WaC started to defend BT that we decided to end our nap, the Concordium disbanded a few hours after and the rest is history.

Are you sure it was only then that dual alliance membership was forvbidden? iirc. at least for WaCJr that was the case allready quite a bit earlier...

besides that, iirc the "hostilities towards Fury" and defending BlueTubas happened as reaction to Legion leaving WaC and attacking together with Fury due to WaC expecting Legion and Fury to turn against WaC once BlueTubas didn't provide enough roids anymore. I am pretty certain that afterwards some Fury or Legion official staed that that "fear" was quite justified.

Imagine WaC had not started defending BT, etc., what do you think would have happened? The Legion/Fury cooperation worked well, WaC was weakened and roidrich, and there were hardly any alliances Fury and Legion could have attacked, so do you really believe if WaC had not defended BT the NAP had not been cancelled and Fury and Legion would not have allied? If thats not the case cancelling the NAP and allying with Fury can hardly be called a consequence of WaCs "hostility"but rather a continuation of the Legion split from WaC.

Originally posted by Grendel

According to me, the Legion/WaC split wasnt a devious plan to gain power, but a reaction of several events that took place. Besides I doubt anyone who wasnt in the concordium core in rd1 can truelly understand how most of us felt with the actions of wac in rd2.

Nothing is black and white in PA, especially not alliance politics. Hopefully this version of the story offers a different view, or so I may hope.

Indeed, and especially on AD things are painted in the strangest colours. But maybe now that both Legion and WaC are gone we can get the events a little more clear. :-)

[Salomo]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
so let me get this right.

WaC/legion = Legion/Titans?

*grin*

I'd dare say there are some interesting similarities, though Legion was a lot more successfull

Alliance hopper? No. I had my alliance all along, but they refused to recognize it.

You're overlooking the obvious for more devious intent, Salomo. And there just isn't any. It took us much of round two to actually realize how powerful we had become.

[Ska]

Originally posted by Salomo


I'd dare say there are some interesting similarities, though Legion was a lot more successfull

No alliance could ever be THAT successfull again imo.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally posted by Salomo
3. At what point did the political side actually kick in? I.e. when did Legion start negotiating with fury, in how far and when did Legion try to focus WaC's attention and firepower on bluetubas, which more or less was the only other alliance at that time besides WaC and fury that might have become some sort of threat (iirc they still had some big membersand the other alliances were largely too small and undeveloped to be any kind of threat)?

There was no contact between Fury and Legion before they split from WaC - that happened weeks later.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally posted by Grendel
It is actually half a miracle that we trusted eachother enough to pull of the attack on BT. VtS launched 1 tick before Fury and I remember us franticly scanning the big Fury gals to see if they would launch.

I can add a bit more info to this. It may seem wierd to readers that we didn't both launch at the same time: in fact the very first launches were dummy attackers (ints + 1 pod). The idea was to tie up Tuba defence before we unleashed a massive first wave of real attacks. Tuba already knew that VtS were going to attack them, so it was hoped if VtS launched first Tuba might ocmmit more defence than if they immediately realised both of us were going to hit them.

In fact the dummies were a total failure. Original plan was for VtS to do 2 dummies with 500k ships each on 2 of the largest Tuba planets, then for Fury to do the same on two more the following tick. A 500k attack then would be roughly comparable to about a 250k attack right now - large, but well within the capabilities of any active alliance to cover if that was the only inbound they faced.

Problem was we'd massively overestimated the capability of Tuba - and when they saw the 2 large VtS inbounds they imediately decided they couldn't cover it. It was then decided to reduce the Fury dummy to just one. That one failed even more miserably - the target was offline and his galaxy didn't even bother to report it. The planet itself came online later to be totally bemused at why a 500k atatck with no defence against it had recalled at ETA 1. I beliee Rids was the target.

Main launches happened a few hours later - and as Grendel pointd out, both VtS and Fury were busy scanning one another to see if they'd launched. Of course, both of us Had launched - in large numbers: and the rest's history.

[Patrician]

Originally posted by Salomo

Imagine WaC had not started defending BT, etc., what do you think would have happened? The Legion/Fury cooperation worked well, WaC was weakened and roidrich, and there were hardly any alliances Fury and Legion could have attacked, so do you really believe if WaC had not defended BT the NAP had not been cancelled and Fury and Legion would not have allied? If thats not the case cancelling the NAP and allying with Fury can hardly be called a consequence of WaCs "hostility"but rather a continuation of the Legion split from WaC.

Lets not make too much of WaC "defending" Tuba - They had actively attacked Tuba as soon as Fury/VtS's intentions were clear.
Of course the alliances official position was neutral - but that meant sod all in reality (My own fleet was caught by a WaC incluster after dodging VtS incomings for 4 days).

WaC 'defending' Tuba occured at the 11th hour, and far too late to have any effect - even as a token offering.

As Sid pointed out - Tuba was useless, even if WaC had defended Tuba from the outset the end result would have been the same, it would effectively be WaC + the small amount of still active Tuba members against two organised alliances.

[Axis_WLF]

I never really officially knew why WaC started actively defending tuba, only thing I was told from a concordium person was they didnt want Legion/Fury feeding off tuba day in and night as the point was proven.I guess the point was Tuba was not unstoppable , but I do remember someone from WaC asking someone from Legion why they keep attacking tuba and the person had replied... Cause they have roids?

[AlbinoSquirrel]

The reason WaC chose to start defending Tuba was obvious - they saw the writing on the walls. Who would be the next obvious target for Fury and Legion?

[Axis_WLF]

Well I thought about that But I do think Legion's MrX was Conc HC and Legion HC at the time still. If not then aye your probably right.

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by Axis_WLF
Well I thought about that But I do think Legion's MrX was Conc HC and Legion HC at the time still. If not then aye your probably right.

So that's to say MrX might have had some 'sway' over Concordium's lack of defense support for TuleBuba in the early stages?

Originally posted by Axis_WLF
Well I thought about that But I do think Legion's MrX was Conc HC and Legion HC at the time still. If not then aye your probably right.

That has little to do with anything, actually. Especially since WaC didnt regard Legion as its own alliance until the 11th hour. I always got the feeling they had their noses so high in the air, they were convinced that we could play with our little mini alliance while they ran the real show.

When it was apparent that Legion was biting off more than anyone had expected it capable of; eg: attacking BT with Fury, I believe WaC's remaining pride had been damaged. We were not only doing something that WaC had spent the round preparing for, and pheasably could not do in its current state at the time, but by that time we had also expressed discontent with the way they were running their show. They suddenly realized that they had made a major miscalculation in their judgement of just how capable Legion was at the time, and most likely were embarassed. Embarassed about the very real possiblity of being upstaged by members who had tried to help better WaC, but were for the most part ignored. Mr. X being an exception, but his real influence was limited. Many of us had been there since r1, and were trying to advise the HC on what the core members wanted, but only a deaf ear was listening.

It's my belief that being upstaged by something they had considered to be a novelty alliance at first angered certain WaCers in positions of power that they wanted revenge in the only way they could achieve at the time. Not from attacking us outright, as they were little match during this point in the round. But by defending BT as an act of richeousness against Legion.

[Torz]

Legion were lucky that WaC was ran by complete fools or they would have been roided straight away by Jonka's wing (which _was_ bigger at the time) as soon as they 'split' like Jonka wanted to. However, Marlboro and Apok thought everything would be pally pally.

PS, I am incredibly biased

[Axis_WLF]

Aye makes sense KR.


Who was on the Conc. command at the time? It did take me forever to eventually catch jonkas fleet etc.

Originally posted by Torz
Legion were lucky that WaC was ran by complete fools or they would have been roided straight away by Jonka's wing (which _was_ bigger at the time) as soon as they 'split' like Jonka wanted to. However, Marlboro and Apok thought everything would be pally pally.

PS, I am incredibly biased

Well, while I can sit back and easily admit that I never was interested in WaC too much, I know there were others who truly wanted to contribute to WaC. I had originally intended to contribute, but the oversized community was not to my liking. I gravitated toward the Yan Isleth wing, which was led by Hurricane and Fidler, good friends of mine at the time. WaC HC were incredibly snooty or in a mood most of the time I ever had experience with them. I always felt looked down upon in their presence, so I soon lost any desire or reason to want to fight an uphill battle with them just to help out.

There were others who felt different, but I was happy in our tiny communities (Legion and YI) full of people I knew by name, and knew something about. WaC was overbloated, and ever since being a member during that era, I have always been against alliances larger than 150 members, and preferred alliances between 40 and 75. I remained there, because it was Legion protocol in r2 to gain WaC membership, and because I had friends in YI, or I probably would have formally resigned just to be done with that alliance for good.

But the point behind all this is that I had my reasons, just like others had theirs for being a more active contribution to the alliance. I was never at home in WaC, but I knew I would be a fool if I didn't use the membership there to my advantage. Its people like myself that Jonka hated, but there weren't many of us. Most were willing to help out at one time or another, myself included. Jonka was just looking to fight his own shadow, and in the end you ultimately get what you ask for. Lovely part of the human condition where you actually create the problem by being paranoid about it in the first place. But I dont think I need to go into depth on just how Jonka's anti-Legion sentiment contributed to our decision to cut ties.. : )

Oh and Axis, I really dont know the full staff of WaC command at the time. I'm sure someone else around here remembers, though.

Originally posted by Torz
Legion were lucky that WaC was ran by complete fools or they would have been roided straight away by Jonka's wing (which _was_ bigger at the time) as soon as they 'split' like Jonka wanted to. However, Marlboro and Apok thought everything would be pally pally.

PS, I am incredibly biased

From what i remember Torz Jonka's wing wasn't upto much, as i remember New Dawn giving them quite a beating until the rest of WaC joined in on the attacks.

Also id highly doubt that Jonka's wing was more effective than, Mostly Harmless, Legion and the others recruited within the first few days.

[Cicada]

from what i remember from back then, mostly harmless was incredibly strong (ECA was my GC). ECA alone destroyed all the tubas in c31 in about 5 days, which was quite amusing. Now, as far as what went on, i was a newb back then, so i'm pretty much unaware, but i always had the impression that Mostly Harmless moving from Tuba to WaC, was a major de-stabilising influence on WaC, and was one of the reason for the collapse.

i could be totally wrong though..

Originally posted by Cicada
from what i remember from back then, mostly harmless was incredibly strong (ECA was my GC). ECA alone destroyed all the tubas in c31 in about 5 days, which was quite amusing. Now, as far as what went on, i was a newb back then, so i'm pretty much unaware, but i always had the impression that Mostly Harmless moving from Tuba to WaC, was a major de-stabilising influence on WaC, and was one of the reason for the collapse.

i could be totally wrong though..

ECA was a class man. I was very upset to return near the end of the round and find that he had moved on to greener pastures, and other games.

MH was a great outfit with great opporutunities, and we knew it the second they made the BT -> WaC change. ECA's reasons were that BT simply wasnt organized enough, and overbloated. They came to WaC, and were dissapointed to see that it wasnt much, if any, better. Now my memory fails me as to the exact timeframes on much of what happened, but I do remember that MH came to WaC a few weeks before Legion cut official ties with WaC. From the start, Videer was trying to get them in with us, instead of WaC. His intuition proved correct, however apalled the rest of us were that he would try to recruit them direcltly from WaC. Videer contacted them almost immediately, from what I gather, but the real negotiations began when we had our own 'falling out' with WaC. Videer and myself did much of the negotiations with ECA, though I'll freely admit he was much more active in the discussions than I was. This scheme was one of his baby's. : )

A little more background information.. I know MH was also supposed to be brought in as a WaC wing, but I'm not sure if it ever happened "officially." Their merger with WaC was brief at best, since ECA said himself that he had hoped WaC to be more like Legion was. The match was made in heaven. And technically, ECA was the first de-facto Legion HC to be appointed outside of the original seven.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by Synthetic_Sid


There was no contact between Fury and Legion before they split from WaC - that happened weeks later.

That was always the bit I had real trouble believing. As far as I remember back then when Conc turned to WaC it became too unwieldy. Nobody wanted to leave it as they would have been roided and destroyed very quickly. However once a sufficiently sized group left it was dead.

[Seed of Chaos]

heh, all the big names seems to be replying to this thread

[Salomo]

ok, i guess on the first part we can conclude that some Legionaires actually felt attached to WaC (though prolly more to legion) and wanted to help, while others just wanted to use and abuse it... (relatively normal for an alliance with different people)

what i still wonder about a bit though is the politics at and after the split... All that i remember from that time is that there were some raids on tuba scheduled, that got cancelled last moment due to fear of Legion attacking us. Then there was this attack on an ICD gal that Fury defended iirc, where WaC lost tons of ships because they refused to order a recall.

so putting my memories into the context of what was told here, am i correct in assuming it happened like this:

Legion left WaC but NAPed with them. They then started talking to Fury for joint attacks on BT. ( Though somehow i find it a bit difficult to believe that Legion split off without having any background support. After all Fury could have decided to attack Legion instead of BT, WaC prolly wasn't happy with Legion and might have attacked as well, and those largely bashed alliances fighting WaC could have used this as chance to at least pay part of WaC back if integrated into the possible Fury/WaC attacks on Legion - or in short: The situation for Legion when they split seems quite dangerous if they had no deals with any alliances at that time, and in rounds 3-7 Legion hasn't exactly been famous for doing things with some risk involved if avoidable. )

Some WaC members started targetting tubas too then, untill WaC actually targetted BT specifically. Soon after WaC realised that by attacking tuba they were just speeding up their own death, since Legion had gotten closer to Fury at this time allready, and did a 180° turn, starting to defend tuba and attacking ICD. ( did ICD actually have any relations to Fury at this time or did Fury only def them to damage WaC? ) The result was some sort of a cold war between WaC and Fury/VtS where they didn't directly attack each other but rather defended against each other. WaC of course was in no shape to stop Fury/VTS from roiding BT, and when they were largely done with BT and the WaC/Fury conflict was becoming more important, Legion decided to rather cooperate with Fury than with WaC and cancelled the NAP with WaC, preparing to attack it. WaC disolved and those WaC members that hadn't allready left WaC when things started to go downhill or were then recruited into Legion were attacked by Legion and Fury.

WaCJr turned into sedition with some WaC members comming along, and Elysium and YI were created as alliances by other ex-WaC members. Sedition was granted a NAP with Fury/Legion ( did YI and Ely also get NAPs or any deals? ) while the now dominant two picked off the roids of the other ex-WaC members. When they were finished with that Legion wanted more of their former alliance mates roids and cancelled the NAP with Sedition even before Fury. Sedition tried to use the fact that Fury still was NAPed with them and attacked a bigger Legion planet, but Fury people came in and saved him, making the NAP not be worth the bits and bytes it was written on. At this stage i guess the Legion/Fury alliance was perfect in theory and more important also in practice.

More or less correct?

Originally posted by Salomo
Though somehow i find it a bit difficult to believe that Legion split off without having any background support. After all Fury could have decided to attack Legion instead of BT, WaC prolly wasn't happy with Legion and might have attacked as well, and those largely bashed alliances fighting WaC could have used this as chance to at least pay part of WaC back if integrated into the possible Fury/WaC attacks on Legion - or in short: The situation for Legion when they split seems quite dangerous if they had no deals with any alliances at that time, and in rounds 3-7 Legion hasn't exactly been famous for doing things with some risk involved if avoidable. )

I need to get to bed soon, so Im going to cut this short, and perhaps reply more later. (reading this over now, Im leaving errors, but all I have to say to this statement is "HAH")

When Legion announced its severance from WaC, there were alot of bruised egos, but we managed to retain peace with WaC. We hadnt been an official part there for long, so there was merely an aknowledgement of different leadership styles.

However, the one thing which did manage to turn alot of heads was the mass resignations.. I had advised against this, because its naturally interpreted as a hostile action. And many were so fed up with WaC at that point that they didnt care any longer. But we were still friends with many of our old aquiantances in WaC. Many were sore over our leaving, but many also understood. We in Legion made it clear that we saw WaC as a sinking ship and couldnt be a part of it any longer, but that didnt necissarily mean we wished former comrades ill fortune.

Summation: We wanted a NAP/Alliance, but were washing our own hands with what they had become, and from any direct influence on WaC matters from then on. Many were sore from this, and the nap was established semi-reluctantly. WaC knew that they'd be foolish to declare open war even if they were sore, because we were imposing enough.


Our later cooperation with Fury had mainly been due to circumstance, because we shared similar goals: Taking down BT. You may have a difficult time believing it was just chance, but remember these are round two politics we're talking about. Legion was also the alliance at the time, because we gave the order to tag up around the same time we had split from WaC.

WaC was crumbling on one hand. Fury, a promising rising alliance like ourselves, were interested in a joint effort to take out BT. Keep in mind that the Legion we're talking about is 70-100 members here. Sid can speak for Fury's members at that time better than I can, but Im sure it wasnt much different. BT was enormous. WaC was enormous. Realisticly speaking, the roid/score ratios in WaC and BT were alot more delicious than those in Legion. Also realisticly speaking, the fleet sizes and defense coordination in Legion at the time made it nearly impossible to pull a "successful" attack on us (getting roids) without having much of your fleet stolen in the process. We knew early how important theives were, and used that edge to our advantage.

Fury had no reason to attack Legion at that point. We were both up-in-coming alliances, looking to take out the former big names, as is the destiny wrapped up in every round of the game since r1. At the moment, small elite alliances hadnt even been tested or defined in the community. It was viewed that to survive in the r2 universe, you had to be part of a huge flagship alliance for protection. We changed all that, but you cant expect us to also have had the foresight to know everything we were redefining for the game while we were doing it.

[Galadrieth]

Originally posted by Game


From what i remember Torz Jonka's wing wasn't upto much, as i remember New Dawn giving them quite a beating until the rest of WaC joined in on the attacks.

Also id highly doubt that Jonka's wing was more effective than, Mostly Harmless, Legion and the others recruited within the first few days.

Jonka's wing at the time 0wned. Newdawn never gave them a beating, from what i remember there was only one incident that Newdawn actually bothered WaC, other than that i remember them being a walk over, with the wing i was in(Xriz's Primus Legio) easily stealing Coffee's whole fleet
However on firepower i remember Jonkas wing being the big boys in WaC, admitedly alone not as big as Legion, but with a few other wings, Legion i think could of been talken down...

drifted a little of the topic...hmm....

[Salomo]

Originally posted by Dragoon
At the moment, small elite alliances hadnt even been tested or defined in the community. It was viewed that to survive in the r2 universe, you had to be part of a huge flagship alliance for protection. We changed all that, but you cant expect us to also have had the foresight to know everything we were redefining for the game while we were doing it.

iirc ND had in fact tried to establish a small elite alliance with their maximum of 50 members, etc. it failed when they had to face the big ones.

Originally posted by Salomo


iirc ND had in fact tried to establish a small elite alliance with their maximum of 50 members, etc. it failed when they had to face the big ones.

I wouldnt of said New Dawn failed, as it had the biggest average planet score for members before the war with WaC, they were just simply over run, and dont forget New Dawn were in effect fighting Legion and Jonka's Wing when the war with WaC was on, 2 wings of very simular calibure to New Dawn back then.

So New Dawn didnt fail, they just cut their numbers a little too short and lacked any serious alliance backing from anyone else.

[Torz]

Originally posted by Game


From what i remember Torz Jonka's wing wasn't upto much, as i remember New Dawn giving them quite a beating until the rest of WaC joined in on the attacks.

Also id highly doubt that Jonka's wing was more effective than, Mostly Harmless, Legion and the others recruited within the first few days.

Jonka's wing has most of the top WaC planets and it was by far the most efficiant wing WaC had.

I wasn't on about Jonka's wing taking down Legion when they had already recr..poached a lot of the big members, I am on about the time when they decided to 'split' which was what Jonka wanted to do. I think it was because he was in love with KR tbh :/

Originally posted by Torz

Jonka's wing has most of the top WaC planets and it was by far the most efficiant wing WaC had.

I wasn't on about Jonka's wing taking down Legion when they had already recr..poached a lot of the big members, I am on about the time when they decided to 'split' which was what Jonka wanted to do. I think it was because he was in love with KR tbh :/

Ahhhh a love for KR, ive been there

Except me and Idler actually killed him hehe

Cost me a computer game that did though

[Tis]

Originally posted by Salomo


Legion left WaC but NAPed with them. They then started talking to Fury for joint attacks on BT. ( Though somehow i find it a bit difficult to believe that Legion split off without having any background support. After all Fury could have decided to attack Legion instead of BT, WaC prolly wasn't happy with Legion and might have attacked as well, and those largely bashed alliances fighting WaC could have used this as chance to at least pay part of WaC back if integrated into the possible Fury/WaC attacks on Legion - or in short: The situation for Legion when they split seems quite dangerous if they had no deals with any alliances at that time, and in rounds 3-7 Legion hasn't exactly been famous for doing things with some risk involved if avoidable. )

You have to remember that Fury's very existance was defined by its position in opposition to the established order of the game, i.e. the two super-alliances. We had fought a tough war with Conc at the end of round 1, and had felt betrayed and disgusted by Tuba leadership's unwillingness to risk hostilities with Conc. I, at least, viewed an eventual war with WaC as inevitable. Depending on how aware of this Legion was, it would have been fairly easy to predict which side Fury would fall on, even without taking into consideration the growing understanding of how badly alliance bloat hurt effectiveness.

At the moment, small elite alliances hadnt even been tested or defined in the community. It was viewed that to survive in the r2 universe, you had to be part of a huge flagship alliance for protection. We changed all that, but you cant expect us to also have had the foresight to know everything we were redefining for the game while we were doing it.

Not entirely true. The Fury/TE war had at least shown that member quality and alliance coordination were extremely important. They turned a war between relatively similarly sized groups into a stomping. One could go back to UFS/C7R for examples as well.

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by Game
Cost me a computer game that did though

You seem to forget it wouldn't have arrived to your home anyway.

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4


You seem to forget it wouldn't have arrived to your home anyway.

I actually got some ****e game for round 3 signed by Vish Spinner Zeus Fudge.

When i actually picked it up from the collection centre i actually thought it was the porn Nod said he was sending me, as the signatures were to say the least 'child like' and i thought it was Nod taking the piss, heh.

[Nodrog]

<3 Jonka wing <3

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by Game
I actually got some ****e game for round 3 signed by Vish Spinner Zeus Fudge.

When i actually picked it up from the collection centre i actually thought it was the porn Nod said he was sending me, as the signatures were to say the least 'child like' and i thought it was Nod taking the piss, heh.

I'm not sure what part is funnier... the signature piss-take or that you actually got a prize for not finishing first, while every round since, the #1 player hasn't received his prize yet.

What was the game?

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4


I'm not sure what part is funnier... the signature piss-take or that you actually got a prize for not finishing first, while every round since, the #1 player hasn't received his prize yet.

What was the game?

Ummm cant remember it got 'misplaced' somewhere, i would of much preferred porn from the lovely Nod :/

You think you know it all.
But you dont.
So thanks for the nice thread, was a good read/laugh/crie :-)

[Tesla]

Originally posted by Axis_WLF
sedition was a good fight to, after We Are Concordium

heh...ur kidding right ?
I was Sedition at the time and altough we were able to kill a mass of gals a day, we werent prepared for such incs.. We were stupid enuff to actually believe that The Legion would leave us alone, though obviously they were gunna nap us or atleast not attack us till they had eaten WaC alive and then move on to anhiliate us...
I was amongst the 5 biggest in Sedition at the time, and needless to say it wasnt very fun when the wolves started looking my way... red, red, red and more red The cool thing about this round though was that by then I had grown so big in thieves that I didnt care about my roids I only needed my thieves So I kept sending my fleet out when they attacked me and usually retalling Fury peeps and eating their fleet alive
Its ironic though that I managed to end up in both alliances getting twatted, I left TE when Fury twatted em, joined Sedition and only weeks later its the same crap again

Tesla

[Salomo]

Originally posted by Tesla

We were stupid enuff to actually believe that The Legion would leave us alone, though obviously they were gunna nap us or atleast not attack us till they had eaten WaC alive and then move on to anhiliate us...

Actually iirc command completely expected Legion and Fury to cancel the NAP. The goal was to rebuild and restructure as fast as possible to put up at least some fight.

And in some clusters that actually worked (well, i can recall one where iirc we had one huge member who played the legion/Fury in his cluster), though of course we were by far no real match for Legion/Fury (especially when wzman and blerghas who had been running Sedition at that time suddenly left).

(though if we would have only had to fight one of the two it could have actually gotten interesting.)

[Predat0r]

I do find all this history from the early days of PA quite fascinating, especially since I was not there to witness it. The whole Legion/Fury thing, rising up to beat the giants of PA, BT/WaC, reminds me of Greek mythology, when the Olympians overthrew the Titans.

I have heard here and elsewhere how Legion came about, but what about Fury?

[Cicada]

fury was originally a r1 cluster alliance (c7r)

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Predat0r

I have heard here and elsewhere how Legion came about, but what about Fury?

A rebel cluster alliance (c7R - I think thats the correct way to capitalize it) contained the founders of Fury. They were one of the few groups of people to oppose Concordium and survive. There is also debate throughout PA to the true winners of r1 (galaxy wise) - there are actually three supposed winners, one of them including what was the main c7R galaxy back then (Containing Sid). Im shaky to the exact composition of that galaxy and such.

Fury was then born in round 2 with a command staff of Sid, Ghengis, Cryptic, Cayl and Cyclone within the Executive (Fury surprisingly was not a dictatorship back then). It wasnt until round 3 (or perhaps near the end of r2) where Sid was declared Chief Executive for The Fury.

Sid actually has a history for Fury in the works, and as far as I know it is quite comprehesive including logs and such. Perhaps Sid may explain some feelings and thoughts also - but we'll just have to wait until the report/essay is complete

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Originally posted by Zh|l

Fury was then born in round 2 with a command staff of Sid, Ghengis, Cryptic, Cayl and Cyclone within the Executive (Fury surprisingly was not a dictatorship back then). It wasnt until round 3 (or perhaps near the end of r2) where Sid was declared Chief Executive for The Fury.

Sid, Ghengis, and Cyclone were the Executives - Cyclone coming in with a group of players called SSA - the Starsiege Alliance. I was part of that. Cryptic and Ghere (as Cayl was known then) were not Executives, but officers (highly placed ones). Idler, Greg, Mephiston, Slobber, and a few others I can't recall made up the rest of the Fury officer corps. I wasn't made an officer till mid-round, after Cyclone bitched out and quit, taking the member DB with her.

[Torz]

Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel


I wasn't made an officer till mid-round, after Cyclone bitched out and quit, taking the member DB with her.

hehehee