Zeus announcement - acc sharers !

[Ohm]

Originally posted by Zeus
Now, how the information is gathered and presented to me, to be completely honest, doesn’t change the FACT, that one person, had the login & passwords of numerous other accounts, disclosed to him by the account owners.

You are hiding something or someone...

Originally posted by Zeus
If you think about it, the odds of being able to hack, X number of people all from same alliance/battlegroup is EXTREMELY remote.

That means that it can not be ruled out ... when there is a slight chance for hacking.

To turn it around : what is the odds that so many people can be so incredibly stupid of sharing this information with so many others ? I think its less likely than the hacking theory.

Originally posted by Zeus
I have just explained how the information was NOT obtained by hacking and that the information in the recent cases was gathered by a badly configured computer, which belonged to one person.

How was this information gathered ? In a legal way ? If it was obtained illegally, then you shouldnt use it ! That would be morally wrong, and in real life such evidence wouldnt be valid to convict a person.

Originally posted by Zeus
I thought I knew this guy as we had built up an active ingame/irc relationship and thought he would never break the rules by account sharing.

But still you trust this informant of yours ? That is weird, I thought you would be more careful with beliveing all you "see" or hear after your incident in early rounds.



None of what Zeus said changes the fact that some of the people accused may be innocent. To judge people based upon an information source like Zeus mentioned makes me shiver.

If there is doubt, even a slightest doubt, you shouldnt close! The doubt should benefit the accused...


Admin tools ? Tracers, hacking tools, whatever ....

As a company, I would never trust 5th season, your organisation is too customer hostile, and you judge people when there is no firm evidence that this person gave away his login-info.

For the paying customers, make a complaint to the company, ask the bank to revoke the payment as 5th Season has not given you the service as promised.


Ask the Norwegian Datatilsyn what information 5th Season are entitled to store !

[Scouse]

GIVE IT A REST.

[Steve_G]

morally wrong? lol

were talking about cheaters who have no morals

stop your bitching kid, just cause u or someone u know was closed dosnt make them less of a cheater

and obviously it must have something to do with cache or something along those lines

zeus = damn right.

stop whining. now.

[General Martok]

All cheaters should be deleted. ?

NO matter how Zeus got his info, if it is accurate =====> CLOSE

[Zeus]

Originally posted by Ohm


Rant...

Ohm, you speak in such terms, even without seeing the evidence. You debate the legality of the evidence, even though, the logins & passwords where in a file and open availble to whomever looked at a certain URL. As someone already reported it to me, Im sure it wouldnt say quite for long, and if I didnt close, how long before Mr X, Y, and Z seen the URL and thought, erm...I wonder if these login & passwords are real and acessed the accounts in question. Now imagine, what they would do to these account!!! Now, imagine if those account where not acted upon and closed........think about it for a second, before you go all high and righteious.

Now, disprove the fact that a memebr of this battlegroup does have a misconfigure pc, which does have these login & passwords, disclosed to him be the account owners, obviously by medias such as irc etc...openly availble to all to view.

So, I ask you what makes you think this all great battlegroup didnt, share login info to at least one individual who stored all that info? Is it sooooo impossible or doubtful?


As for trusting the informant, this isnt really important, as the facts still remain the information is there where the informat said it was, the information on there is the login & passwords of the account closed and just bhy chance..which I found out later, they all are part of X battlegroup and interact closely togeaher.

"None of what Zeus said changes the fact that some of the people accused may be innocent. To judge people based upon an information source like Zeus mentioned makes me shiver. "

I put it to you that every account closed, was closed and will be deleted, because they disclosed the login info to at least another individual and that the security of that account was now compramised. We could debate all day about, endless possibilities etc, and examine even the 0.01% possibilties, but no possibilities changes the facts:
1. One individual of the group had, all the login info of all the accounts closed in this case.
2. This information was open to public knowledge.
3. The account owners have disclosed this info to the individal via irc and other medums.

Just point 3 alone proves sharing and deletible offence, so why all the debate? Im not here to justify myself, nor the actions of Fifth Season AS, which have been followed in this case, just like the thousands of similar cases before this.

"As a company, I would never trust 5th season, your organisation is too customer hostile, and you judge people when there is no firm evidence that this person gave away his login-info. "

I regret you do not trust our judgment in this matter, however you claim no firm evidence? Havent you read anything I have said? whats not firm about it?

"For the paying customers, make a complaint to the company, ask the bank to revoke the payment as 5th Season has not given you the service as promised. "

Now, you directly ask people to complain and support you? Not only that, but ask people to be sure theres never another round of Planetarion and to withdraw payment for a game they are playing and paid for? Sorry, but thats nothing but anger I get from you and I do understand closing one effects a few, closing many effects a lot more, but be they #1 or #1000 they all must be treated the same HC or newbie.

I really doubt I'll be making more postso n this case or announcments, I just thought I best exaplin the suitiation as the forums have jumped on it and the number of false rumours is just growing and growing.......

This is rumour management, signing off.

[Petru]

Originally posted by Ohm

Lot's of tosh & poppy****

Smoke.

Fire.

No, without.


Figure it.

[jornx]

To turn it around : what is the odds that so many people can be so incredibly stupid of sharing this information with so many others ? I think its less likely than the hacking theory.

I have some experience in the internet security department.
And let me tell you it isn't very likely that the 20 accounts were all hacked.

What is likely is an attackgroup who got tired of noone waking up, resorted to accountsharing to keep their attack productive.
Believe me there are a lot of ppl in PA who think they can get away with it.

[cypher]

amen to zeus....they cheated...delete em. get it done and over with....simple eh?

[Spearhead]

well if this is the case then then i am very diappointed in my mates anyway my round is over .... i am glad the cheaters got closed ofc my BG is no more ah well good job Zeus....

[glaci3r]

Thanx Zeus for your announcement i was getting sick of all this "bleeding-heart" liberal crap

[Unf_Slasher]

Originally posted by Zeus


bla bla bla

thx zeus, you have finally shown me that you got no clue whatsoever about what you are speaking here.

you have no idea about the legal terms you are trying to use here (trust me on this, if the people who were deleted wanted it, your arse would be open for legal action against you).
You ignore all evidence given to you by the closed people (no change you did this in rd 4 and 5 as well), and you sit on your high horse acting high and mighty without offering a single piece of proof so far.

let me state the proof I saw so far:
a log where martin, leff and lockhead talk about their account info and give details for launch procedure (your words).
the log is in german so you cannot really understand it.
the log is from my own bg chan, where i sat at the day you talk about, so i got it on my computer.
but curiously no login details are listed in my log, only orders where to launch with what fleet (standard procedure, targs are assigned and the people get ordered where to launch what).

so from my point of view the log got edited and the info put in there.
you say the sources of the info do not matter.
that is completely wrong.
quoting international law (will be a bit difficult since my version is german, so if i make small mistakes plz forgive me):
"If evidence is taken from an illegal action, the evidence must be ruled out in all further investigations".
That means your evidence does not count if it is obtained through hacking (in this case).
also, the defence may see all evidence 3 days before the set trial date, or the trial must be postponed.
in your case you do not even give the defenders a trial.
you say "we got evidence, you are convicted, bye bye"

so i got enough.
i am gone to play a game, where the game is not decided by creators deleting all the top players from alliances.

you just ruined the last round.

final note: i know 6 of the deleted persons IRL, none of them asked me to account share, none offered me their info to babysit their planets. i spent 20 newsscans a day, scanning their planets to keep them save, why should i bother doing that if they had babysitters? and why should they accountshare with untrustworthy ppls, if they had rl m8s they could trust 100% ????

[Spearhead]

well if he has prove i would like to see it too, cause as far as i know those guys are all pro's and do not cheat !!!
E V I D E N C E P L S ???????

[Mong]

This thread needs closing, cos moronic noobs like Ohm and Unf_Slasher have "contributed" to it.

Anybody who knows Zeus will tell you that he speaks the truth! He doesn't close accounts without a hell of a lot of evidence.

Give it a break.

I can't even be bothered ranting back at such mindless attacks on Zeus et al.

M.

[Mong]

Originally posted by Spearhead
well if he has prove i would like to see it too, cause as far as i know those guys are all pro's and do not cheat !!!
E V I D E N C E P L S ???????

It's none of your business. You have no right whatsoever to see this information. Which I can assure you, is entirely accurate. Or are you doubting my word too?

Besides... you think just because somebody is a top player, they don't cheat?

Muhahah... etc.

Oh and when you signup, you're clearly told that cheating will result in account deletion. Noobs who claim this is illegal have failed to take into account the copious kroner spent on legal advice, on making the contract totally legit.

So please, give it a rest.

M.

[Unf_Slasher]

Originally posted by Mong
This thread needs closing, cos moronic noobs like Ohm and Unf_Slasher have "contributed" to it.

Anybody who knows Zeus will tell you that he speaks the truth! He doesn't close accounts without a hell of a lot of evidence.

Give it a break.

I can't even be bothered ranting back at such mindless attacks on Zeus et al.

M.

your sig says it all.....

but if you take a minute to read my post again, you may see that i attacked zeus because he doesnt give a **** about the way he treats people.
his way to close planets is by no way legal, nor is it just.

if you want to argue against that, do it, but i doubt you can.

[Torz]

Zeus is a clueless twat. I wouldn't expect him to make a proper decision ever. If there is a round9, hopefully it will be without Zeus then it might be a little better.

[Morden]

a question about these logs,

i think perhaps you should look at when the logs were created and when they were last modified, you might find the dates to be largely in error but then again im sure whoever falsefied the logs would find an excuse for that.

on the other hand the people from the battelgroup have the original un edited logs which it would show when they were last edited so you could see it.

and then it comes to how did they get the login names........

ah well as people say hacking never happens in pa, neither does anyone dos private servers etc.

the game isnt doggy dog and has never been to win at any cost, or to illegally access someones account so you can attack them.

it never happens and has never happened, isnt that right?

ah well thats enough ranting

sweep it under the rug

[KingGnome]

Originally posted by Unf_Slasher
you have no idea about the legal terms you are trying to use here (trust me on this, if the people who were deleted wanted it, your arse would be open for legal action against you).

Its pathetic when ppl resort to threatening legal action they know would get laughed out of court....

[Morden]

Originally posted by KingGnome




Its pathetic when ppl resort to threatening legal action they know would get laughed out of court....

erm perhaps you dont know as much as you claim.

but then again its not like slash is at law school or anything

[Unf_Slasher]

Originally posted by Morden


erm perhaps you dont know as much as you claim.

but then again its not like slash is at law school or anything

it doesnt matter that my father is an international law lawyer and i asked him before i posted it either of course

[KingGnome]

Originally posted by Unf_Slasher
it doesnt matter that my father is an international law lawyer and i asked him before i posted it either of course

I presume he examined the t/c everyone agreed to when they created their accounts, right?

If so, and he still believes that there is doubt that 5s have the right to alter their own databases, then fair enough, I certainly wont claim to know more than an international lawyer

But I would be very interested if any planetarion player ever managed to take 5s to court over something like this (let alone win)

[note: IANAL - the following ramblings may be completely and utterly inaccurate legally]
I guess what supprises me most - and why I made the initial comment I made - is the ONLY person who is being accused of breaking any sort of law is 5s

Everyone is turning it the other way around, but its not...

5s doesnt have to prove that anyone is guilty
The only question is has 5s acted illegally

To prove THAT you not only have to prove that its illegal for them to change their db (i.e. that the t/c are not legally binding and that by paying to play, you own the rights to a single row in their db), but you also have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the account owner is innocent

5s is the party that is innocent until proven guilty - since they are the only ones who are being accused of breaking any law.
[/note]

[Ohm]

Originally posted by Zeus
Now, disprove the fact that a memebr of this battlegroup does have a misconfigure pc, .....

"misconfigure pc", please enlighten us !
Did someone except the owner or anyone that he had given permission, access this pc ? If so, is that legal ?

I have heard about security holes is Microsoft software, but this doesent mean that people have the right to exploit them.

Originally posted by Zeus
As for trusting the informant, this isnt really important, as the facts still remain the information is there where the informat said it was, the information on there is the login & passwords of the account closed and just bhy chance..which I found out later, they all are part of X battlegroup and interact closely togeaher.

This informant may have used you to let you see what he/she wanted you to see.

How hard is it to upload a log-file to a "misconfigured pc" without the owner noticing it ?

I am surprised that you without doubt swallows whatever information is presented to you without reflecting on how this information was obtained.

Do you know hacking personally, cause I guess you need to have extended knowledge to rule it out.


Here is a little story from last round, perhaps you remember Zeus, as you personally took care of it :
A friend of mine was GC and had the coords 35:23:8. One day he found his planet closed. He wondered, how the heck did this happen. And the mail from you, Mr Zeus, stated that this account was closed because of a galpicture containing nudity. My mate contacted you and managed to get account reopened. But how this picture got there in the first place, we never found out. Someone else must have accessed the account, and due to this fact I cannot rule out any possibility regarding password-lists, logs and so forth.

There are many players in Planetarion which have very good knowledge to computers and software. Planetarion is also a very unforgiven game;one day you are doing well and when you wake up the next you may be dead. Due to this fact and that most people hate to loose, I cannot rule out the possibility of a conspiration made by an angry or ill-treated player with extensive knowledge to computer security.

To summarize :
Cheating - maybe
Stupidity - maybe
Betrayal - maybe
Hacking - maybe
Innocent - maybe

Fact :
Arrested, convicted and executed by Zeus.

[wakey]

Originally posted by Unf_Slasher


it doesnt matter that my father is an international law lawyer and i asked him before i posted it either of course

Well if he told you this then I'm suprissed he has any business as EU Law (and most other countries laws) state that agreeing to t&c is considered a legal contract and as such they are allowed to do anything that the t&c states (within reason....tehy obviously couldnt state that they would have you killed for cheating )

[Zeus]

Originally posted by Ohm


"misconfigure pc", please enlighten us !
Did someone except the owner or anyone that he had given permission, access this pc ? If so, is that legal ?

I have heard about security holes is Microsoft software, but this doesent mean that people have the right to exploit them.

Enlighten you? why exactly should I? Should I also tell you the URL to goto to see it, and how it is possible to view it etc? I ask again why should I? You have typed here once again, when you dont have full information or knowledge of actual events. Should I also continue to explain to many people on irc asking about it and pming me saying X would do this and wouldnt do that and demand to see evidence and know more about this case. I do try to explain as best I can, but there is only certain things I can say, as, to put it bluntly, it has nothing to do with them, its between FS & the account owner. This was why I posted the announcment to state the facts, not the rumours that have honestly went on too long now.

Originally posted by Ohm

This informant may have used you to let you see what he/she wanted you to see.

How hard is it to upload a log-file to a "misconfigured pc" without the owner noticing it ?

Totally true, very possible a hacker made all this happen and let me see only what he wanted me to see. We DO take that into concideration. NOW!, if we take this into concideration, cant you take into concideration that to hack all the people involved in this battlegroup, 20+ login & passwords on 20 different pcs and then to upload it onto a memeber of this BG pc, continaing quotes from the account owners, etc..a bit far fetched? Surely I cant be the only person who see this as near impossible senerio?

Originally posted by Ohm


I am surprised that you without doubt swallows whatever information is presented to you without reflecting on how this information was obtained.

Do you know hacking personally, cause I guess you need to have extended knowledge to rule it out.

Im truely equally surprised that you continue to claim hacking.......ok how where all involved pcs hacked? or lets examine the possibility that one pc was hacked and that pc had all the login info of the other accounts on it....you may tend to agree to this one perhaps as its kinda more realistic that 20+ pc being hacked who ALL just by chance belong to the same battlegroup out of thousands of other players. Yet, it doesnt change the facts I announced on this forums and in portal, thats one person had stored all the login info of the others on his computer in an open url availble to anyone who found it.

Originally posted by Ohm

Here is a little story from last round, perhaps you remember Zeus, as you personally took care of it :
A friend of mine was GC and had the coords 35:23:8. One day he found his planet closed. He wondered, how the heck did this happen. And the mail from you, Mr Zeus, stated that this account was closed because of a galpicture containing nudity. My mate contacted you and managed to get account reopened. But how this picture got there in the first place, we never found out. Someone else must have accessed the account, and due to this fact I cannot rule out any possibility regarding password-lists, logs and so forth.

Sadly I dont remember the individual case, however it does sound logical if we could prove the account was accessed by someone OTHER than the account owner. The account owner may have given his login info to someone he trusted and they did it as a joke. They may have accessed their account from a net cafe and someone keyloged his login info, they may have recieved a trojan and someone acessed his pc, I could go on all day about ways its possible, but why should that Fifth Season AS concern? Fact is someone did acess and your ARE responsible for all action yuor account takes and for your own login info security. Sure we keep ourselves open to many possibilites before closing, but surely as we opened your frined in previous round, this proves we do concider and beleive very possible people can be hacked, even though its rare.

Originally posted by Ohm

There are many players in Planetarion which have very good knowledge to computers and software. Planetarion is also a very unforgiven game;one day you are doing well and when you wake up the next you may be dead. Due to this fact and that most people hate to loose, I cannot rule out the possibility of a conspiration made by an angry or ill-treated player with extensive knowledge to computer security.

To summarize :
Cheating - maybe
Stupidity - maybe
Betrayal - maybe
Hacking - maybe
Innocent - maybe

Fact :
Arrested, convicted and executed by Zeus.

Erm, noone is asking you to rule, noone at all. The closures is between Fifth Season AS & the account owners themselves, yet you continue to beleive you have, in your words, a conspiration by an ill treated player. Well, obviously someone in the battle group knew lots perhaps even reported it him/herself, but like I said, your opinion on a matter, you know little facts on, is listend to and is the only reason I bothering to reply to you, your welcome to your opinion and emotions, but please dont second guess my announcment, when i speak of the facts as thats exactly what it is.

[Ska]

Originally posted by Ohm

whining

nice, you just made me laugh irl.

[Ohm]

I wont argue any more. The reason for my post was to make people understand that there will always be doubts and that the truth may not be as presented. This goes to all aspects of life.

I didnt mean to defend the persons deleted, why shoud I ? After all, those people belonged to the winning sides last round and bashed me and my friends beyond recognition.

I totally agree that the possibility for account sharing is here according to what you have stated, and that the people involved may have broken the rules of Planetarion.

In the "internet-world" even the "impossible" may be possible, and humans have a long history of deceive and betrayal. This is the reason for me not to belive anything or anyone.

Well, the show must go on, with or without the deleted ones. I just hope that the ones kicked out was guilty as charged and that their lifes will go on without Planetarion.

Thx for the attention.

[Ska]

Originally posted by Ohm
Well, the show must go on, with or without the deleted ones. I just hope that the ones kicked out was guilty as charged and that their lifes will go on without Planetarion.

ummmm all of our lives have to go on without Planetarion in a few months....

[whoop]

Amazing how few people actually know about law, software and EULAs and hacking.

These are the facts as I understand them - correct me if I am wrong.

1) there was a web page somwhere with a bunch of planet usernames and passwords.
2) Some of the owners of those planets i question are saying that they somehow got "hacked" and they were innocent.

I don't see what the problem is.

Every planet deserves to be closed, login information should not be published.

And as for that paper thin defence of "ooo I got hacked", let me add my 2 cents here.

Unlike the people saying "my dad is a lawyer" or "I am at uni taking law", I actually work in the security field.

If your property is used in illegal activity, and it then turns out that said illegal activity was made easier because you failed to secture your property (in this case your account), then you are liable for negligence.

There have been a few landmark cases of this sort here in the US (I'll find references if needed).

The cases that I am familiar with (because I used to write medical securiy software) was that of doctors computers being compromised (they got "hacked" - same as what the cheaters are claiming), patient data was stolen, and the patient sued successfully on the grounds that the doctor didn't take enough precautions to safeguard the patient's privacy.

Granted, this is USA law, which is not Norwegian, but I do remember Europeans that I worked with being amused at the fact that our laws were more backward and we were only now getting around to this, so I am guessing its even more strict in EU.

The gray area here is that unlike failing to protect data, or robbing a bank, or whatever, cheating is not really illegal, its just against the rules that you agreed to when you signed up the planet.

But then again, you're not going to jail, you're being deleted so its a wash.

Zeus: I am happy to see that you are actually taking an interest in the game and doing something. TBH - I were in your shoes I wouldn't do it as I consider to be a waste of my time given that PA will no longer be a revenue stream.

I for one would love to see more announcements of these sorts, as it will make me feel like someone actually gives a damm.

Well done.

-whoop

[Demented Turnip]

/me changes his mind and agrees with whoop.

[Dari]

@Zeus
Even if the people you closed acc shared, you are not better than them. You are supporting crime, even if they had logs with logins on their comp.You have no idea about laws i think, but in Germany and i'm sure in all other european countries it's not allowed to retrieve any information from computers without the knowledge of the owner. You say misconfigured computer, but the fact is they had a virus (nimbda virus it opens your comp for public) on it and whoever retrieved the information from the computer access it without permission of the owner or with his knowledge. You should report this person who accessed the computer cause it is illegal even if a virus opens a computer, if you are not doing it you are not better than this person and you support crime.

[Konsul]

LoL........this outterly lame discussion is now closed.