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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 23:25   #1
Ultimate Newbie
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Implications for Planet Scan

Given the new changes to the Planet scan, which seems to work as follows (originally described by Denial HC with accurate ranges from Cin, who were experimenting in the beta, unsure of present accuracy though it does make sense);

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denial HC
The factories assigned to the order does not matter to the factory usage. My guess at the formula is:

*=resources of
(*light_ships_in_production)/(Total_production)= X
(*medium_ships_in_production)/(Total_production)= X
(*heavy_ships_in_production)/(Total_production)= X

IF X is

0>1--result--> none
1>0.33 --result--> low
0.34>0.66 --result--> medium
0.66>1 --result--> high
All resource based.
Summed up, its the proportion of resources per class in production.

Then, on AD, i pointed out the following;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Plus the way that none/low/medium/high is calculated is interesting. Its almost worth having 1 ship of each type of factory always in production just to get that 'low' rating, rather than none.
Assuming your race can build that class, of course.
This point is clarified by this;

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelle
Hmm with res in prod shown anyway how will this be a plus?
Well, lets say you have 10 million resources in production. If they're all frigates/destroyers, the scan would look like this:

Code:
Factory Usage   
 Light  Medium  Heavy   
None     High        None  
Total Amount of Resource in Production: 10,000,000



Now, if you had 1% ship of each, the scan would look like this:


Code:
Factory Usage   
 Light  Medium  Heavy   
Low       High          Low  
Total Amount of Resource in Production: 10,000,000





This means that its possible that more proportion of that 10 mil might not be just on FR/DE (up to about 40%? of the value or 4mil resources) might not actually be FR/DE. This could skew the calculations for defence enough to make the result far less certain.



Thus, what do people reckon? Is this the case? Are there other ways of working this stuff out? Who wants to work out the exact range of possible values for different calculations (eg, Low/High/none means, given the original assumptions, anywhere between 0/99/0% to 33/66/0% and so on).

Or work on some sort of calculator for it.

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Last edited by Ultimate Newbie; 5 Jun 2008 at 01:02.
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 00:09   #2
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Wouldn't it be fantastic if that when they change something they also actually updated the manual so we don't have to guess these things...
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 00:18   #3
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

What manual??



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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 00:38   #4
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Now, if you had 1 ship of each, the scan would look like this:


[/color][/font] [/left]
Code:
Factory Usage   
Light  Medium  Heavy   
Low    High      Low
Code:
Total Amount of Resource in Production: 10,000,000
[left] [color=White]
It doesnt work like that. If you have 10m res in prod in heavy (for example) and add 1 light and 1 med ship they will show as "none" not as "low". Go play on the beta and see.
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 00:52   #5
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Given that i'm not playing the beta and dont really have the time to experiment, would it be possible for you to have a play to establish what the minimum threshold is?

maybe its 1%?
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 00:55   #6
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

None = 0%
Low = 1-33%
Medium = 34-66%
High = 67-100%
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 00:56   #7
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Thanks Cin.

So, what i said above, but 1% instead of 1 ship.
Is it still worth it?
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 01:03   #8
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Thanks Cin.

So, what i said above, but 1% instead of 1 ship.
Is it still worth it?
not sure if the question was directed at me, however this wasn't added to be some accurate measure and info on what the planet has in prod, but to give an "impression" of how much is "hidden" and of what classes it is divided over etc.
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 01:10   #9
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus
not sure if the question was directed at me, however this wasn't added to be some accurate measure and info on what the planet has in prod, but to give an "impression" of how much is "hidden" and of what classes it is divided over etc.
Well, it was a general question so it was directed to everyone equally.

I understand that its not meant to be accurate. What i'm getting at is that people will be able to take advantage of the fuziness such that more complicated behaviour around working out what is being produced to what extent etc.

This means that a new strategy is available to help counter the scan - which in itself was to counter the dominance of production hiding. Thus, there is more strategy involved in the game, as the argument that "well the scan completely ruins the earlier strategy of production hiding" is pegged back to a degree. This is good.
Might need to make a new post in Monroe's strategies thread.

Essentially, the scan is not accurate and this was never its intention. Which means seeing a value of Low/high/low could mean that the ships in production vary from low values of Low with high values of High, to high values of Low with low values of High.
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 04:12   #10
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

So, what i said above, but 1% instead of 1 ship.
Is it still worth it?

Imo its not worth it.

Round 27 Changes:
- Production system overhaul to allow partial canceling and to not penalize for adding to orders after they've been placed


It's going to be two fold harder to hide anything in prod now. 1 ofc because of info given on the scans, and 2 as quoted above they have "fixed" the penalty thing. So in order to keep ships in prod you will need to be dumping res in all the time. Then you have the option of mixing orders or not. While 1% may seem small, it will eventually add up. A 1% order on its own will finish fast, too fast to be worth it imo. If you mix the orders the 1% will have to grow larger and larger as you are adding more to your primary order to "keep it hidden." So really you will have min 2% if you are putting small bits of 2 ship classes into your main order, and again that 2% will have to grow as you add more to your main order to keep your "low" rating. If you have to release this prod to self cover for incs (for example), how much are you willing to lose value wise to try and trick ppl, if the class of incoming will kill your smaller orders? Not worth it in my opinion.
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 04:30   #11
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reese
Imo its not worth it... Then you have the option of mixing orders or not. While 1% may seem small, it will eventually add up. A 1% order on its own will finish fast, too fast to be worth it imo. If you mix the orders the 1% will have to grow larger and larger as you are adding more to your primary order to "keep it hidden."
Wouldnt it be possible to build 97.8% of whatever you were going to build, and then spend 1.1% of your resources into the other two branches (eg, building FR, you'd spend 1.1% on both FI and CR). So, the proportion is always going to be the same, so you dont need to worry about it creeping upwards to 2% or whatever, but yes as the value of the stuff in production grows, you would need to add more value to the other two in order to keep it above 1% and thus a "Low" reading on the planet scan.

Now, i dont recall how the production works, whether by having both the FR and the FI/CR in the same order, will they always stay together? or will the FI/CR finish before the FR assuming the same number of factories? I have an inkling that its the latter, which means you would need to devote min factories to it and try to stretch it out longer, however yes you will need to be alot more active with your production in order to ensure full coverage.

But, it might be necessary to only show this during the times that you normally get attacked, and/or whilst the person attacking is deciding whether to land or recall. If you have some marginal defence, and through this method you make it more difficult for them to work out what you are building, you might induce a recall when otherwise you wouldnt have.

Further, the ~1% of the other two classes arent really wasted either. Eventually, when they do come out of production, they will add to your fleet. Most races have a good small unit, a good medium unit and a good heavy unit that they can slowly add to with small numbers. So, you just (very slowly) add ships to your universal defence fleet, or something.

Its true, if they come out during combat, then its probable that they will be destroyed as there is no flak. However, at the end of the day, its only 1-2% of your most recent production, of which at leat 30% you will get back in salvage. I think we're talking about small numbers here! .


But I think the main problem will be that its time intensive. However, it should still be considered as a possible counter to the scan, just to make it a bit more difficult for your attacker to decide whether to land on your or not. Even if it only gets a single recall, that would probably pay in absolute terms for the strategy throughout the whole round.

But if its not worth it, then that's cool mate. I appreciate your input .
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 13:37   #12
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

There's far too much info on that scan.
only the total amount of res spent or only the ratio of light/medium/heavy prod would have been good enough.
Predictability is killing the fun...
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 14:19   #13
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

presumably this also has a major impact on stockpiling resources to use to counter attacks (always a similar strategy to hidden production anyway) as now when you spend all those resources the attacker can simply get a planet scan and will most likely know what U have spent resources on, as most races only have one or at most 2 ships that can be built to target a certain shiptype of incs meaning that the attacker can work out pretty much exactly what is being produced.

in my view this change helps attack too much over defense in a game that is probably already too attack orientated. There will be less fun crashes to watch - what would ascendancy have done under this system last round!
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 14:56   #14
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
presumably this also has a major impact on stockpiling resources to use to counter attacks (always a similar strategy to hidden production anyway) as now when you spend all those resources the attacker can simply get a planet scan and will most likely know what U have spent resources on, as most races only have one or at most 2 ships that can be built to target a certain shiptype of incs meaning that the attacker can work out pretty much exactly what is being produced.

in my view this change helps attack too much over defense in a game that is probably already too attack orientated. There will be less fun crashes to watch - what would ascendancy have done under this system last round!
Pretty much exactly what we did anyway, I think I can count the "major" crashes on hidden prod on one hand(alkis maras, isils corsairs...where there any other?)
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 15:19   #15
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Toot had one on him for like 800k value lost. arc had one as well for 1 mil plus. In general meaningful hidden prod is really obvious though. It was more use as a deterrent which lowers your bash really.

Edit: I don't think anyone actually crashed on alki's maras. He had like 3 hidden prods but those were early on and he kept on ****ing up.
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 15:47   #16
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Imo showing which facts are being used is stupid in my opinon, total amount of res stocked should be plenty..

I suppose there are ways to fool your attacker with the whole number of factories used thingy though..
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Unread 5 Jun 2008, 16:21   #17
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Pretty much exactly what we did anyway, I think I can count the "major" crashes on hidden prod on one hand(alkis maras, isils corsairs...where there any other?)
given I was not talking about hidden production but stockpiling the main point is that with so much more information crashes are rather less likely... I obviously have no idea how many of denial's crashes were down to hidden production or stockpiling however there being more information should inevitably lead to less crashes where the attacker has simply miscalculated as more information makes miscalculations less likely, however if there are less crashes wars will be less fun to watch or to participate in imo.

it also still seems to be an unneeded swing towards offense as being the only style of play open.

p.s. the use of ascendancy as the example of forcing crashes was meant as a silly aside, I should have known I would be kicked due to my lack of information
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 14:50   #18
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
There's far too much info on that scan.
only the total amount of res spent or only the ratio of light/medium/heavy prod would have been good enough.
Predictability is killing the fun...
Agree
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 21:00   #19
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

I know this post really doesnt belong here. But I was thinking since the Xan main advantage is that it is a cloaked race, I believe that these new planets harm xan players more than the other races. I think it should be fixed so that the production cost that is shown in planet scans only shows ships that are not cloaked like sk and pods. Any suggestions about this?
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 21:27   #20
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDsocbas
I know this post really doesnt belong here. But I was thinking since the Xan main advantage is that it is a cloaked race, I believe that these new planets harm xan players more than the other races. I think it should be fixed so that the production cost that is shown in planet scans only shows ships that are not cloaked like sk and pods. Any suggestions about this?
would make no sense, ships are cloaked, but resources put into factories aren't
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 08:58   #21
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
There's far too much info on that scan.
only the total amount of res spent or only the ratio of light/medium/heavy prod would have been good enough.
Predictability is killing the fun...
Also, you get surface scan level information in the form of factory usage. The amount of res spent into ships is comparable to something like advanced news scans. Pretty shit.
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 10:06   #22
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

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would make no sense, ships are cloaked, but resources put into factories aren't
If Xans can cloak their ships, including battleship sized units like the Spectre of old, wouldnt it be possible to cloak a factory?

Sorry, just highlighting that PA is, after all, completely fictional, and stuff doesnt need to make sense to still have practical application for game mechanics.

That being said, i dont actually like the idea of Xans being immune from something as important as production-hiding scan all that much.
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 11:45   #23
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
If Xans can cloak their ships, including battleship sized units like the Spectre of old, wouldnt it be possible to cloak a factory?

Sorry, just highlighting that PA is, after all, completely fictional, and stuff doesnt need to make sense to still have practical application for game mechanics.

That being said, i dont actually like the idea of Xans being immune from something as important as production-hiding scan all that much.
with that in mind (and i know im still trying to make sense in a fictional world) they would only be able to cloak small and medium factories since a heavy factory is larger than what it can produce. but seems like a silly idea to begin with and i can see the xans getting preferential treatment if its implemented
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 12:28   #24
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
with that in mind (and i know im still trying to make sense in a fictional world) they would only be able to cloak small and medium factories since a heavy factory is larger than what it can produce.
But, a quick look at the ship stats would show that Xans do not have any battleships, so you could use a BA cloaking device on a heavy factory .

But even then, it still not balanced because that means factories would be removed from all scans such as structure scans, and so on.

Quote:
but seems like a silly idea to begin with and i can see the xans getting preferential treatment if its implemented
What do you mean by preferential treatment?
But yeah, the idea is a bit silly. I wasnt expecting anyone to take it this far, tbh . <3
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Unread 7 Jun 2008, 14:55   #25
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Re: Implications for Planet Scan

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
What do you mean by preferential treatment?
But yeah, the idea is a bit silly. I wasnt expecting anyone to take it this far, tbh . <3
i meant they would benefit more from such a thing compared with other races. i.e. the planet scan wouldn't be an accurate depiction of resources in production etc.
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