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Unread 11 Oct 2012, 00:24   #301
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Re: Well done Ult

first sensible post i've seen CBA make in a while, what did they do to you in dubai man ?
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 03:30   #302
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA View Post
I love how, for the last 4 or so years at least, every former member of Ascendancy who takes an interested in these forums strokes that big ol Ascendancy ego.

Moving on to facts for uno momento since round 20ish there has been consistently less than 2000 players. Yes, sure Asc won prior to that, post pax I might add so still only a few thousand players. Also, the time everyone talks about is round 28+ et cetera with a further reduction in players to >1500.

Now let me make my point. I wonder how the 'ascendancy' way would of affected rounds 1-10. Why is there no talk now of when strict military regime was the roots of the greatest alliance known to PA (Legion/Fury et al). Let us not forget Asc/Ult/App have arguably only been such huge successes because of the mass accumulation of all of the most active, 'hardcore' players in the game.

All in all, for the greater good of the game, it might be worth spending time to stop gloating and stroking and putting some effort into the forward motion of the game's development *cough*.
What exactly is your point? The best alliances adapt. Fury and Legion would also have done so (and heck they did, in Titans and Eclipse/1up). A not insignificant number of old Fury/Legion people have played in Ascendancy and done well. It's not an egostroke to give someone good advice based on experience. And that's what most people have tried to do in this thread.

If you actually had any clue about the old days, you would know it was riddled with multiplanets, password sharing and huge amounts of power abuse by alliance leaders. For all it's faults, PAX has done a lot to eliminate those problems.

There's actually no reason a power structure like Asc had couldn't have worked in old PA. It worked for us with 110 planets too. It's all about leaving it in the hands of all your members instead of a few chosen bc's/dc's.
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 10:23   #303
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
What exactly is your point? The best alliances adapt. Fury and Legion would also have done so (and heck they did, in Titans and Eclipse/1up). A not insignificant number of old Fury/Legion people have played in Ascendancy and done well. It's not an egostroke to give someone good advice based on experience. And that's what most people have tried to do in this thread.

If you actually had any clue about the old days, you would know it was riddled with multiplanets, password sharing and huge amounts of power abuse by alliance leaders. For all it's faults, PAX has done a lot to eliminate those problems.

There's actually no reason a power structure like Asc had couldn't have worked in old PA. It worked for us with 110 planets too. It's all about leaving it in the hands of all your members instead of a few chosen bc's/dc's.
I understand all of that Golan. My point is, I guess, is out of frustration at the games swindling playerbase and lack of development during the time I have played it. It dosn't help that whenever I check these forums for new updates / any reform coming / in the game etc I simply see the same posts by the same players recyled over and over.

The conversations regarding the best way to play pa on these threads only talk about post pax when we had such a small playerbase. Imagine giving everyone in HR (for example - or f-crew as it was) the same powers people have had in Asc/Ult and such... It would not of worked as well. Therefore I will highlight the same point again, Asc always had the most hardcore / active & I will use the word 'mature' here playerbase. Let us not forget that.
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 10:44   #304
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Re: Well done Ult

I'm don't agree that giving everyone in HR 'power' would not work well.
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 20:28   #305
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA View Post
I understand all of that Golan. My point is, I guess, is out of frustration at the games swindling playerbase and lack of development during the time I have played it. It dosn't help that whenever I check these forums for new updates / any reform coming / in the game etc I simply see the same posts by the same players recyled over and over.

The conversations regarding the best way to play pa on these threads only talk about post pax when we had such a small playerbase. Imagine giving everyone in HR (for example - or f-crew as it was) the same powers people have had in Asc/Ult and such... It would not of worked as well. Therefore I will highlight the same point again, Asc always had the most hardcore / active & I will use the word 'mature' here playerbase. Let us not forget that.
This is a fair point, because the Ascendancy model attracts only the very best players, who have the capability to be given autonomy and everything working out. But then again, while Legion and Wolfpack had HC type structures, I would say they operated on similar lines before they abandoned their 'elite' model. The difference with Ascendancy is that it is truly open in its structure and far more conducive to cooperation and making use of everyone's qualities.

The other option is of course to harness numbers, which is exactly what some of the other alliances are going to need to beat an Apprime or an Ultores. Right now they are crashing fleets left right and centre, not defending very well either, and worst of all not offering total cooperation to achieve their mutual goals. This effectively comes down to two things, the way they run their alliances and the way they run their politics. All I can suggest is a simple structure, simple rules that you always follow and enforce, communication with your players to inform them and help them improve, and committing to a common goal when you actually make a political agreement. Coming out best from a war is irrelevant if you don't achieve your objectives.

For all that, it doesn't invalidate the point of my post, in that a sense of purpose produces great performances. Round 6 was a particularly good example of that because there were three alliances in Deus, Fury and Xanadu who played exceptionally well because each alliance wanted to do well for reasons that were more than just winning the round in isolation (a political cause, pride, revenge). Ascendancy's sense of purpose pretty much sent everyone into overdrive in r30: I like talking about it because it was a great thing to be a part of and is pretty much the model way in terms of how the game should be played. In terms of proficiency, it's the model. So in that sense you are picking holes for the sake of it, rather than focusing on the topic.
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 02:54   #306
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Re: Well done Ult

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This is a fair point, because the Ascendancy model attracts only the very best players

...and the very best furniture!
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 13:21   #307
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Re: Well done Ult

Sorry this took so long. Probably wouldn't bother responding if it wasn't for the fact this shit seems to get repeated every 5 minutes, so i might as well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
It would have been easier to have fixed the defence issue rounds ago where a revamp/rename wouldn't have been nessesary. The desirable players / members know that if they want to keep roids but will get up when Called/SMSed to send defence and maybe a bit of dcing go to ultores, apprime or an alternative ally out of loyality or for something new and not CT.

CT in its current state won't get those players needed due to shit reputation.
It is now a vicious cycle that would be hard to get out of... Glad I am not a CT HC.
Sorry to drive this home but it's pretty central to me pointing out that the actual solutions you and others are making are essentially empty; whether or not you think your solutions should've been implemented earlier or not doesn't detract from the fact that suggesting they disband is not actually a solution for the alliance.. suggesting they should've implemented your suggestions earlier only matters if you're actually offering meaningful solutions to begin with (and you aren't).


Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
I suggested having a competitive minium defence requirement. If anything I would advocate in CT's case have bonuses for members who will/do DC as well as members who send defence at key times.
Tbh I would prefer a lazy member to emo over not getting defence because they havent sent enough fleets and / or not DC any incoming over top defenders / top DCs. Some would call this sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
By "competitive minimum defence requirement", do you mean something other than people with higher def points taking def priority? Because if not then they already do this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
I know CT have members who don't / will not DC from my time there in r40. if they don't want to do the main duties of DCing they could at least assist the DCs in scan fetching / calc building / .sms / !call and take the work off the actual DCs and prevent burnout when there is heavy inc ... try and get lazy members proactive is one of the key points to recovery. Get them to earn their place in the ally.

2 reasons for this ...
1. Get the lazy members more proactive.
2. Take the strain off the DCs / folk who will DC. keep them happy so that they don't shipjump to another ally (maybe why that there is a DC shortage if one was to speculate)
This isn't a suggestion for ct hc's either.. You're just declaring that ct members should put in more effort. And again I don't disagree, but it's not something solved by ct hc simply changing the way they run things. ct dc's will already ask you to build calcs and whatever else to help with the payload. The point is that the members either can't be bothered to do it, or don't turn up in the first place.



Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
As soon as you get a Ronin type player knowing that they will get their incs covered even with sending very little defence fleets in return ... this will cause member discord for folk who get roided frequently but do put out the defence fleets.
And if those members decide to help the alliance as much as someone like ronin did (i.e. by staying up all night dc'ing everybody elses inc), then perhaps ct hc should start to take the complaints more seriously, rather than just calmly explaining the pretty good reasons for why it's the way things are run.
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 13:24   #308
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Re: Well done Ult

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...and the very best furniture!
This as well. People underestimate the role of furniture.
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 13:24   #309
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Why have a def point system at all?

Just get those DC's to priorotise roids and score. An active DC will know who he asks to defend every night and who defends when smsed/called. Once a week go through the Fleets Sent and set a reasonable limit (10 defences by end of week 2, 15 by week 3 and so on...) and anyone below is marked up for NO DEF in your DC channel topic. If they want to come on and DC themselves then thats fine, they are contributing and more active then and taking reposnsibility for their own planet (most would probably DC some alliance mates in their galaxy as well) but otherwise Dc's will ignore their calls. This pushes the more you put in the more you get out mantra that better alliances play with.
Well that sounds like a reasonable system but I don't really see how it's a meaningful departure from the system ct already uses. It basically sounds the same but more prone to human error.
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 14:31   #310
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Re: Well done Ult

The playerbase is miles too small and miles too stagnant for the level of activity you need to put in to really compete to seem worthwhile to anyone who isn't "used to" doing so. Suggestions about giving more people freedom etc will no doubt help, I think the overall positives (inclusion, respect, responsiveness) outweigh the negatives (spies and incompetence) in pretty much any alliance. However deck chairs, Titanic etc. What the game actually needs is a large influx of new players, ideally with at least 1 or 2 groups who are ready and able to compete at the top level. And, let's be honest here, why would that happen?
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 16:48   #311
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Re: Well done Ult

It won't, which is why breaking up the groupings of ult/app should be the focus of people looking to freshen the game up, rather than producing 10000 word group introspections on how great asc was and how ct hc could turn everything around if only they could learn how to let everyone in the alliance check inc on the alliance screen.
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 16:49   #312
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Re: Well done Ult

(and yes, they already let everyone do that)
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 18:13   #313
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by oil View Post
It won't, which is why breaking up the groupings of ult/app should be the focus of people looking to freshen the game up, rather than producing 10000 word group introspections on how great asc was and how ct hc could turn everything around if only they could learn how to let everyone in the alliance check inc on the alliance screen.
Could not breaking these groups up lead to THE 100 ACTIVE PLAYERS left in Planetarion stopping playing though? and completely kill the game. Especially as the new game is coming... they would all just go play that.


Really the emphasis, as Apprime seem to align with Ultores, is to create an opposed force made up of the active parts from the other alliances and give it 1-2 rounds to find its feet and actually challenge the top 2 - have a serious contender to the throne would open the game up again, allow more better politics and better involvement from the other alliances left over and maybe maybe give us a winner that doesnt start with U.

Lets see what FanG can do and wether they will be a couple of round wonder again....
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 19:34   #314
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by oil View Post
Sorry this took so long. Probably wouldn't bother responding if it wasn't for the fact this shit seems to get repeated every 5 minutes, so i might as well..
CT's defence culture needs fixed and has been long neglected has been the point I have been making for many a round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
Sorry to drive this home but it's pretty central to me pointing out that the actual solutions you and others are making are essentially empty; whether or not you think your solutions should've been implemented earlier or not doesn't detract from the fact that suggesting they disband is not actually a solution for the alliance.. suggesting they should've implemented your suggestions earlier only matters if you're actually offering meaningful solutions to begin with (and you aren't).
Its quite simple... Most of decent PA players wont come to CT due to the defence culture you can continue to be shite (and continue to be laughed at) or make changes to correct this.
Disband CT to help lose the reputation of shite defence it has for at least 8 rounds and reform with a new clean slate... At least this way you could recruit the decent players who do like to try out new alliances who wouldn't come to CT.

Quote:
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There's no reason why an alliance like CT can't go through the same changes over a period of a few rounds. All you need is a HC with some vision and balls.
Oil see the above point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
By "competitive minimum defence requirement", do you mean something other than people with higher def points taking def priority? Because if not then they already do this..
It isn't competitive enough ... which CT isn't doing.
Sort out the wheat from the chaff.
If you don't pull your weight at Ultores expect to be kicked.
Can the same be said about CT?

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Originally Posted by oil View Post
This isn't a suggestion for ct hc's either.. You're just declaring that ct members should put in more effort. And again I don't disagree, but it's not something solved by ct hc simply changing the way they run things. ct dc's will already ask you to build calcs and whatever else to help with the payload. The point is that the members either can't be bothered to do it, or don't turn up in the first place.
Personally the members who can't be arsed to DC / send fleets be put on no def then kicked and roided if they don't improve their game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
And if those members decide to help the alliance as much as someone like ronin did (i.e. by staying up all night dc'ing everybody elses inc), then perhaps ct hc should start to take the complaints more seriously, rather than just calmly explaining the pretty good reasons for why it's the way things are run.
keep the prized members happy (at the same time get to pull their weight in defence fleets) and make the shit players emo... might not be a bad idea
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Unread 14 Oct 2012, 21:58   #315
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Re: Well done Ult

I find it slightly amusing that two of the most vocal ppl on this thread saying how to fix the problems, did a lot last round to cause said problem.

Paisley, it is ok telling ppl not to def whore etc and how to have active dc's. But I seem to remember lots of def going your way last round whilst you offered just about nothing to dc in return.

And kaiba, it is all very well saying how people need to group against Ult/App effectively, but it was you who signed the nap with ult and it was you who was DC HC and did next to nothing to sort out the def culture at DS once other alliances spanked DS for aforementioned nap.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 02:16   #316
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Re: Well done Ult

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And kaiba, it is all very well saying how people need to group against Ult/App effectively, but it was you who signed the nap with ult and it was you who was DC HC and did next to nothing to sort out the def culture at DS once other alliances spanked DS for aforementioned nap.
Didn't Kaiba kind of give up?
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 08:29   #317
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Re: Well done Ult

Ok since we were mentioned, i'll just say this:

We've flowed somewhat with the changes, extended alot more autonomy in what the members can do and adapted as the rounds have changed.

The ship isnt as watertight as it was, my fellow HC's have dragged me kicking and screaming into the relax, theres not enough players to have spies ethos and most have the ability and we are encouraging our people to DC themselves and others if they so wish to, but thats about confidence and time to do it, its working ok in its present form.

As a whole dont lack talent/ability, what we lack is the time we can give, we openly encourage our people to have sleep and Real lives with their families.
We still run on the system of making it fun, making it relaxed and above all not letting it get to you too much if *bleep* happens.

This is not a #1 alliance ethos, but its kept us going when other alliances have gone to the great Planetarion graveyard, we are a joke to some, we are yelled at by others, this is our lot for our ethos, we accept this.

We are still here !
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 09:42   #318
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I find it slightly amusing that two of the most vocal ppl on this thread saying how to fix the problems, did a lot last round to cause said problem.

Paisley, it is ok telling ppl not to def whore etc and how to have active dc's. But I seem to remember lots of def going your way last round whilst you offered just about nothing to dc in return.

And kaiba, it is all very well saying how people need to group against Ult/App effectively, but it was you who signed the nap with ult and it was you who was DC HC and did next to nothing to sort out the def culture at DS once other alliances spanked DS for aforementioned nap.
Yes because your inspired move to hand ult the win really helped as well. It was a bit hard to sort the def culture in ds once half the members emoquit in one night. Clouds I gave up because no way am I gonna sit up all night smsing for defence to get 3 ppl send out of 40 SMS's.

I have already said in this thread forest the thought process behind napping ult and tbh yes it was naive but if every other 2nd teir ally wasn't so up their own asses and actually wanted ult toppled instead of giving ds a 7 on 1 gangrape it would have worked.


I genuinely don't care if ct sorts itself out or not, if they did then they might finish 2nd if they don't then yay easy roids, neither affects me. Until the backstabbing and belief that each other deserves it more regardless of position or skill stops then no one will beat a full tag ult.


I would genuinely like fang to win the round but unless ult is playing a 50+ tag is an irrelevant win as the best alliance wasn't competing. History tells us tho that fang will be winning and ct will organise a bash on them which hands the round to a small tag ult probably. Watch this space!!!
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:56   #319
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Re: Well done Ult

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It won't, which is why breaking up the groupings of ult/app should be the focus of people looking to freshen the game up, rather than producing 10000 word group introspections on how great asc was and how ct hc could turn everything around if only they could learn how to let everyone in the alliance check inc on the alliance screen.
I don't think expecting/forcing/asking those groups to break up is a realistic option.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 15:34   #320
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I don't think expecting/forcing/asking those groups to break up is a realistic option.
certainly not if you got idiots in block thinking they need to hit the both of them at once, automatically putting them in a corner together each round.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 16:46   #321
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
certainly not if you got idiots in block thinking they need to hit the both of them at once, automatically putting them in a corner together each round.
Even if that didn't happen it's not attractive to leave an alliance of competent, motivated players to join an alliance of less competent, less motivated players.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 18:27   #322
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
Paisley, it is ok telling ppl not to def whore etc and how to have active dc's. But I seem to remember lots of def going your way last round whilst you offered just about nothing to dc in return.
I DCed mainly at the weekend as College studies > PA tbh

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Even if that didn't happen it's not attractive to leave an alliance of competent, motivated players to join an alliance of less competent, less motivated players.
This is why CT will have problems getting the right members
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 22:08   #323
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
This is why CT will have problems getting the right members
I don't think there's a solution to that problem. CT will always be a CT sort of alliance. If you want more committed alliances you need new players.
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Unread 16 Oct 2012, 22:23   #324
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Re: Well done Ult

God the last few pages of this have been dire...

Asc reliving glory days. Its not here now yes it was different yes it was probably the best alliance in PA but its not here now.

People talking absolute shite about how to fix a def culture fix an attack culture what the hell is that shite.

People championing one of the remaining communities left in PA split up to make it fair. Again what the hell, that would be like FIFA telling spain to not compete in any championships because they are too good.....

It comes down to one thing only people in the best alliances, as much as they like to claim not to, care about their alliance mates. If an alliance mate is being attacked they want to def. They don't need a DC to say so, a points system to tell them to ( maybe a friendly sms to remind them) they just want to.

In summary either make an alliance yourselves and show people how to win ( props to Kaiba and nelito for trying) or just simply shut the hell up.
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Unread 21 Oct 2012, 16:02   #325
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Re: Well done Ult

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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 11:03   #326
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
This is why CT will have problems getting the right members
CT had the right players, they just left when HC decided not kick ppl that didnt meet requirements and then it snowballed from that point...
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 15:01   #327
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
CT's defence culture needs fixed and has been long neglected has been the point I have been making for many a round.
I don't care. You're bringing this up in response to me asking you to substantiate points made for how ct hc should be improving their alliance, and it isn't one. you made the point as filler, and having to reply to you three times now to point that out is getting annoying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Its quite simple... Most of decent PA players wont come to CT due to the defence culture you can continue to be shite (and continue to be laughed at) or make changes to correct this.
Disband CT to help lose the reputation of shite defence it has for at least 8 rounds and reform with a new clean slate... At least this way you could recruit the decent players who do like to try out new alliances who wouldn't come to CT.
So momentarily ignoring what I just said above, who are these players that won't come to CT?
Where else have they gone to? ND? DFWTK? Why have they been going there? Is the defence better?
What morons do you expect to join CT who wouldn't have joined earlier because of the fact they were called CT and are now named something else?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Oil see the above point.
The two suggestions i can discern from zotnams post are:

1: Give everyone access to the ally def page ingame (as i've mentioned since his post, they already do this)

2: Don't flagship your dcs so much

I've already given my reasons for why the dcs are and should be (to some extent) flagshipped, but given that he's suggesting the lower level planets be given a higher proportion of the defence, maybe you'd like to explain how this meshes with you advocating kicking half the people he's suggesting you send more defence to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
It isn't competitive enough ... which CT isn't doing.
Sort out the wheat from the chaff.
If you don't pull your weight at Ultores expect to be kicked.
Can the same be said about CT?
No it can't, and the reason why is because there aren't better players to replace the chaff. Really, really simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
Personally the members who can't be arsed to DC / send fleets be put on no def then kicked and roided if they don't improve their game.
Ok and so how many members are you willing to kick here? The majority of ct members don't dc their own inc. Should they all be kicked? Is that the action that's about to result in a cascade of elite membership applications from the ether?


Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
keep the prized members happy (at the same time get to pull their weight in defence fleets) and make the shit players emo... might not be a bad idea
Great idea paisley!

1. Encourage already low dc activity by offering def points to dcs. this might annoy some players because they notice dcs don't need to send as many def fleets.

2. Ask dcs to dc but offer lower/no incentives, less discord amongst the rank and file, but probably less dc activity

THE PAISLEY SOLUTION:

Take the best bits of both and pretend the problems don't exist. You're an idiot and you don't actually have any solutions whatsoever outside of suggesting slightly more imposing def requirements that might result in slightly less members and absolutely nothing else. Go reform subh and show us how it's done.
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 15:07   #328
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Could not breaking these groups up lead to THE 100 ACTIVE PLAYERS left in Planetarion stopping playing though?
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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I don't think expecting/forcing/asking those groups to break up is a realistic option.
Ult isn't a particularly old alliance and most of the hardcore players contained within it (and i'm guessing app since it grew about 100% in the last few rounds) have played before in opposing alliances. Appealing to them to create a more competitive game is a much more realistic option than suggesting ct hc change their "defence culture" by summoning 20 night elves to come and save middle earth. It's just a shame that most of the posters on these forums come from said alliances and end up forming an echo chamber whereby they get to expound a load on conceited bullshit about how other people just need to learn about their creative insight in order to wake more people up at 5am; instead of organising themselves like adults into competitive teams.

Don't forget to take this as an assault on your internet liberty to form groups of your choosing etc Zzz
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 16:18   #329
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Re: Well done Ult

why should we play with people who don't care about winning as much as us? and don't say you do if you're not prepared to have your phone go off at 4am and respond to it. the members of ultores want to win so they join a winning alliance. the members of apprime i can only assume like playing like winners however don't care so much about the alliance result.
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 16:20   #330
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Re: Well done Ult

People leave alliances like Apprime (9 this round) and Ultores (I'd guess about 7) every round. If you want to compete for them, you should have an alliance that they would like to be in. And as you said, Ultores is not particularly old, which demonstrates it's definitely possible.

The thing that's really interesting about this whole situation is that given the demand for good alliances, and the clear surplus of supply of good players (Apprime has no trouble whatsoever filling its tag, and I'm sure Ultores doesn't either), no one seems to be willing to increase the supply by starting a new alliance of the same caliber. Even lowering the tag limit hasn't helped. New* alliances are formed, sure, but none competing for top spot: TGV and Uranus are both in the lower half of the top 10 and I'll eat my hat if FaNg isn't below CT, Apprime and Ultores when the round's done.

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* It may be important here to point out that PA has a somehwat peculiar definition of the term "new alliance": it's just a new name on same, though slightly reshuffled, faces. That's why I can count TGV and fANg as "new alliances".
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 16:23   #331
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Re: Well done Ult

there are enough players in the bottom alliances that are very good players, however they are spread out around those alliances, you'd need to create an alliance and recruit those members to knock ult and app out of top 3. but due to loyalty to friends and community of those alliances that will never happen.
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 16:43   #332
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
___
* It may be important here to point out that PA has a somewhat peculiar definition of the term "new alliance": it's just a new name on same, though slightly reshuffled, faces. That's why I can count TGV and fANg as "new alliances".
Off topic here but just want to add something to your comment regarding new alliances. Yeah TGV, Fang and others could be seen as new but as far as I know the command staff has been fairly consistent. Fang seems to come back every few rounds and its pretty close to the same people running it or one of the core member steps up. Not always the same but close to it.

With respect to TGV, some of the same people have been HCing and there is a bit of consistency. Kargool was hc r2/3. I was HC r4-8ish when I disbanded TGV due to p2p. Around r20ish Kargool asked for access to TGV channels and I gave it to him and TGV started playing and i disappeared for a few years and the last few rounds TGV has taken a break and then come back but some of the same people have been HCing, ie Influence, notsure, Nitz, Kargool, Blue_Esper or myself.

I wouldnt classify alliances that take a break and come back as "new alliance" if some of the HCs are still in there and if a good chunk of the members come back to rejoin the alliance
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 16:47   #333
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
there are enough players in the bottom alliances that are very good players, however they are spread out around those alliances, you'd need to create an alliance and recruit those members to knock ult and app out of top 3. but due to loyalty to friends and community of those alliances that will never happen.
And, if it did happen, the mid-tier alliances would have even fewer "quality" players and so become even less competitive and less enjoyable to play in.
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 17:00   #334
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Re: Well done Ult

Can't please everyone. Either make a stand vs ultores or continue as it is, even if its just for a round, call yourself "GIANT KILLAHZ", a recurring alliance that whacks an alliance that is going to win 3 in a row.
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 17:50   #335
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Re: Well done Ult

If the only way you can enjoy this game is by riding on the coat tails of people who put in more effort than you, I won't have any pity for you when they seek better places to play.

(P.S. I am a total hypocrite.)
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 20:51   #336
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Re: Well done Ult

Mid tier alliances have always depended on a few "shepherds" to keep the sheep safe from the wolves. Without those shepherds to look after the flock the wolves run amok, the sheep are killed (or at least have no fun) and (many of them) never come back.

Having said that, I don't really expect the wolves to go back to being shepherds but we should do our best to prevent those few shepherds that remain from becoming wolves.

Ok - I've flogged that metaphor to death.
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 20:55   #337
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Re: Well done Ult

Wolves do go back to being shepherds. Every player that leaves Apprime or Ultores and doesn't join Ultores or Apprime potentially becomes one.

That does depend a little on your definition of 'mid tier alliance', though, I'll grant you that.

(I like the metaphor.)
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 22:14   #338
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
So momentarily ignoring what I just said above, who are these players that won't come to CT?
Where else have they gone to? ND? DFWTK? Why have they been going there? Is the defence better?
What morons do you expect to join CT who wouldn't have joined earlier because of the fact they were called CT and are now named something else?
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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
People leave alliances like Apprime (9 this round) and Ultores (I'd guess about 7) every round. If you want to compete for them, you should have an alliance that they would like to be in.
Again if you put out that there is genuine change you will get some of the players who go from alliance to alliance. Then the HC would have to build apon this round to round basis. An example of this was me in R40 joining CT because they had a decent set up just had a few lazy members who should have been kicked and roided but weren't now there are more lazy members now as a result of not taking action...

"A stitch in time saves nine"

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
The two suggestions i can discern from zotnams post are:

1: Give everyone access to the ally def page ingame (as i've mentioned since his post, they already do this)

2: Don't flagship your dcs so much

I've already given my reasons for why the dcs are and should be (to some extent) flagshipped, but given that he's suggesting the lower level planets be given a higher proportion of the defence, maybe you'd like to explain how this meshes with you advocating kicking half the people he's suggesting you send more defence to.
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Originally Posted by oil View Post
No it can't, and the reason why is because there aren't better players to replace the chaff. Really, really simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jelle View Post
CT had the right players, they just left when HC decided not kick ppl that didnt meet requirements and then it snowballed from that point...
It would have been easier to have fix the defence culture rounds ago instead of allowing it to decay to this point ... Jelle can see this, can you?

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Originally Posted by oil View Post
Ok and so how many members are you willing to kick here? The majority of ct members don't dc their own inc. Should they all be kicked? Is that the action that's about to result in a cascade of elite membership applications from the ether?
Going back to the stitch in time saves nine... It would have been easier to have kicked a few lazy members back in R40 instead of having to kick upto half the alliance members today

My experience of being head DC (early subh circa r15 not R34 or after) at subh was if any members other than scanners didnt meet min def points their defence call was dropped on principle
so it had a good defence culture of the members "throwing" their def ships at the DCs so that they could continue to meet minium defence requirements. The defence points were quite competitive ususally you had to send at least 10 defence fleets every week to avoid being kicked and roided ... and it worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
Great idea paisley!

1. Encourage already low dc activity by offering def points to dcs. this might annoy some players because they notice dcs don't need to send as many def fleets.

2. Ask dcs to dc but offer lower/no incentives, less discord amongst the rank and file, but probably less dc activity

THE PAISLEY SOLUTION:

Take the best bits of both and pretend the problems don't exist. You're an idiot and you don't actually have any solutions whatsoever outside of suggesting slightly more imposing def requirements that might result in slightly less members and absolutely nothing else. Go reform subh and show us how it's done.
Get your lazy members to pull their weight either by the carrot or by the stick. It is upto the HC on how they do it.

I wouldn't reform subh as it is Ali's alliance.
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Unread 26 Oct 2012, 23:24   #339
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Re: Well done Ult

You know what the worst part is? I really hate being a part of this discussion.
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Unread 27 Oct 2012, 00:52   #340
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Re: Well done Ult

I'll be playing ultores till we lose a round. Then i'll go howling rain n teach skills to people
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Unread 27 Oct 2012, 09:23   #341
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
Ult isn't a particularly old alliance and most of the hardcore players contained within it (and i'm guessing app since it grew about 100% in the last few rounds) have played before in opposing alliances. Appealing to them to create a more competitive game is a much more realistic option than suggesting ct hc change their "defence culture" by summoning 20 night elves to come and save middle earth. It's just a shame that most of the posters on these forums come from said alliances and end up forming an echo chamber whereby they get to expound a load on conceited bullshit about how other people just need to learn about their creative insight in order to wake more people up at 5am; instead of organising themselves like adults into competitive teams.
We had what could have been considered two relatively competitive teams in apprime and ultores last round. They ended up not fighting each other. At this point I doubt many people left are that bothered (although I guess ultores have their winning streak to keep going). Beating the same/slightly different group that you've faced ten times in the last ten rounds just isn't that appealing. Personally speaking the only thing that would tempt me back to play a round actively would be facing an entirely new (or very, very old that hasn't played in a long time) alliance.

I do agree that asking people to change up their allliances is more realistic than changing a defence culture or whatever such shit paisley keeps talking about. If people don't wake up at 3-6am to send defence it doesn't matter what system you implement.
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Unread 28 Oct 2012, 16:30   #342
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
We had what could have been considered two relatively competitive teams in apprime and ultores last round. They ended up not fighting each other.
They had the chance when the round was stale and going nowhere.

Ult said they didn't care if app won and would like to see it (app were #1 at that time, ult #2 with less roids).

App said they wouldn't hit ult and that they intended to kick players so ult win.

Since then, plenty of logs show ult/app working togther previously.

One high ranking app even said 'ult was created cause app can't win cause of blocks so we moved ppl into a new tag'.

We now have a situation where ult/app have 120 of the most active players out of 600 players. thats 20%. then they have there lapdog alliances. all working together.
They work together so only way to beat em is to treat em as one block and bash em.

Then they counter with 'you are forcing us to work together' and 'you can only win by bashing' (this second one comes when they are bashed down and invariably allows em back in the game).

Other alliances back out saying 'what's the point when they win anyway'.

Leaving the likes of CT and ND to try and stop them and then get ridiculed when they are invariably beaten in a war they couldt win anyway.

In my eyes app/ult are cheats by the way they work to effectively get round alliance limits anyway and the wins, especially the latter ones, are worthless.
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Unread 28 Oct 2012, 17:53   #343
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
the wins, especially the latter ones, are worthless.
They're definitely the sweetest when they cause this kind of whine in response, that's for sure!
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Unread 28 Oct 2012, 19:25   #344
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Re: Well done Ult

I am not whining. My aim last round was to twat app and we certainly had fun doing that.
Seeing the logs of emo'ing at his gal when it lost that too was even better.
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Unread 28 Oct 2012, 19:47   #345
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Re: Well done Ult

I'm pretty sure I wont be the only person to see your previous post as a whinefest.
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Unread 28 Oct 2012, 19:47   #346
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I am not whining. My aim last round was to twat app and we certainly had fun doing that.
Seeing the logs of emo'ing at his gal when it lost that too was even better.
your post seems like very much of a whine tho... so much so that i was gonna ask you if you wanted some cheese with it...
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Unread 28 Oct 2012, 20:47   #347
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Re: Well done Ult

Ceese, surely, to go with the whine?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 28 Oct 2012, 21:22   #348
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I am not whining. My aim last round was to twat app and we certainly had fun doing that.
Seeing the logs of emo'ing at his gal when it lost that too was even better.
Sure it was pal. I see you started to belive your own lies.
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Unread 29 Oct 2012, 15:26   #349
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I am not whining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
In my eyes app/ult are cheats by the way they work to effectively get round alliance limits anyway and the wins, especially the latter ones, are worthless.
Ya rly.
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Unread 29 Oct 2012, 19:01   #350
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
One high ranking app even said 'ult was created cause app can't win cause of blocks so we moved ppl into a new tag'.
If you knew as much as you claimed to know, then you would know that is bullshit...

Ult was created by people that either:

A) got kicked towards the end of rd42

and

B) those who were tired of putting in effort only to see apprime disband before the end of the round...
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