Beta r47

[SantaCruz]

has anyone asked why we have init 31? we're playing r47 here. ships fire before pods for a reason. ;-D don't mess with that.
If you want that race to be weaker to targeting class... Play with eff

[Tiamat101]

Kia, If you are even paying attention. I am saying that Xan Fr is too strong. The only things that beat it are Emp. I would rather there be HUGE holes in the strats. So to remove Fr from the Ghost, or decrease the init on the bomber to 10, so that ter and etd both fire before it. Otherwise an alliance of Xan's will beat any cr/bs strat and any co/fr/de strat. The only thing that it would "lose" to is fi mainly because there only Fi target is a De(ingal) and it fires after/same init as the other fi fleets.

I want to get the bloody D/c's to a point where ships are Effective at killing when there are xan fi and ter fi both under 100% eff vs everything its just painful to look at. Also Ter Bs is under 100% effective thus playing terran at all is pointless, they fire 2nd and they have low damage....

I would like to see a bit more balancing of the D/C's to fit the normal, Xan ships that have more A/C than D/C is wrong.

[MiX]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Kia, If you are even paying attention. I am saying that Xan Fr is too strong. The only things that beat it are Emp. I would rather there be HUGE holes in the strats. So to remove Fr from the Ghost, or decrease the init on the bomber to 10, so that ter and etd both fire before it. Otherwise an alliance of Xan's will beat any cr/bs strat and any co/fr/de strat. The only thing that it would "lose" to is fi mainly because there only Fi target is a De(ingal) and it fires after/same init as the other fi fleets.

I want to get the bloody D/c's to a point where ships are Effective at killing when there are xan fi and ter fi both under 100% eff vs everything its just painful to look at. Also Ter Bs is under 100% effective thus playing terran at all is pointless, they fire 2nd and they have low damage....

I would like to see a bit more balancing of the D/C's to fit the normal, Xan ships that have more A/C than D/C is wrong.

Ehm, phoenix/phantom and corsair all shoot FOR FREE at xan Fr with eta -1. Xan Fr cant do anything in attacks, and I dont see people massing xan Fr for defense. That said, I also dont see what makes xan Fr that strong in defense? Theyre too slow for anti CO, ghost is good against the Fr/De fleets I grant that but Fr/De fleets are not feasible atm anyway because of too much strong eta -1 defense. Finally Bomber is good against ter Bs, and pretty shit (as is everything else) against Etd Bs.

I see absolutely no reason why everyone should go xan, I was suggesting a boost for them because I feel they are too weak currently.

[Jewid]

Are we going to see some tweaks to ter? I think ter have the best 4 ship combo in harp,nix,peg,drake just need to see some arm and dmg tweaks to make it worthwhile with the giant costs of they ships

[Tiamat101]

I dont speak of xan fr attacking, i am speaking from a defense standpoint in the fact that 25 xans with same fleet comp wont get roided unless HUGE gangbang's

[MiX]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

I dont speak of xan fr attacking, i am speaking from a defense standpoint in the fact that 25 xans with same fleet comp wont get roided unless HUGE gangbang's

They prolly wont have many roids to defend tho.

[Tiamat101]

With the new trend of things, Initiating roids is a much more reliable way to gain roids.

[Monroe]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

With the new trend of things, Initiating roids is a much more reliable way to gain roids.

This was true because the stats were so defensive and nobody could land attacks, with offensive stats this strategy is a lot riskier and I suspect will be used a lot less.

[Mzyxptlk]

Are we really discussing how an alliance that never attacks would do well? Because, you know, there are only so many synonyms for the word "wrong".

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

With the new trend of things, Initiating roids is a much more reliable way to gain roids.

I may not have played the last few rounds but if initing roids and defending them became a better tactic than attacking your enemy I cannot believe there'd be a single person playing this game.

Good work on the stats I think. The spectre's a/c should be a lot worse though so cr fleets can at least potentially steal some.

[Monroe]

Removed Bucc T2 of FI and replaced it with T2= FR with no T3.
Zik had too many anti FI ships, this should help some.

[TheoDD]

i think clipper and pirate should switch speciality norm <-> steal
Zik is already weak enough as it is on these stats, and pirate effiecency and targetting are just to bad for a steal ship. And i also think tycoon needs some serious change of usage.

[Tiamat101]

Xan V Ter
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=dz46f6yythrgm2w
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=giu4nfdt6xr3u5g

Xan V Zik
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=g8shdz46f6yythr
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=pcq6j3qxze9yw4r
(not gona do Zik CR because obv it loses)

Xan V Etd
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=hiwm4iquhz1zbsc
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=c5f2e2giu4nfdt6

Xan V Cath
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=4ip5y3cynah2s9l
And Vs cath cr ssame as Zik Cr

Xan v Xan
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=931ep4y02otpya6
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=h6wkgnti9g3221f

Thats not taking into account team up i know but so far the only things that i see are able to roid into that fleet composition are emp fleets. I guess what im trying to say is that Xan needs to be fixed a bit. And for those that are stupid the reason i went with 750k value attack fleets is because people have a defense fleets and i estimate them to be 250k atleast most people get more but for this example we use a low def fleet ratio.

[Kaiba]

Sorry Tia what are these calcs proving?

YOur making some pretty big assumptions there.

1) Any kind of Cat+partner teamup owns you

2) YOu are presuming you can keep value with the races around even tho as repeatedly stated for 300 ticks you will not have spectres and will wide open to CR attacks.

3) On attack Xan is appalling, you will have to resort to intiating roids for any kind of ateriod gain this round and yet you will still get roided as the fleets you are showing off in your calcs is still way to diluted to be effective.

4) Why are you presuming that you will be solo attacked??? I cant remember a round in recent memory when attacking a race with kill ships solo has been a sensible option. There will still be teamups regardless of stats, all the changes is the amount of people in these teamups. The more open the stats the more likely for teams of 2, the more closed the stats the more likely for teams of 4-6.


Go and play your defensive Xan round if that is what excites you but do not make out that Xan is awesome in any way. It only slighlty better than Zik, a race that has most its int in the 20's.

[Tiamat101]

Umm Kai any good ally vs any number of cr fleets will have there members get to spectres by tick 100, but that gets to my point of, what happens to the cr kids after everyone has spectres flying around, and notice that i didnt say anything at all infact i go on to say that im not including team ups.

and when you can prove to me that 1 fleet composition can beat almost all races then come talk to me but right now zik has a hard time defending its own self with the D/C's they've been given.

[Kaiba]

The point Tia is what was the point in your original post at all when teamups are now a must in PA!!

All you ended up providing was a bunch of unrealistic calcs that will have no actual bearing on the round ahead of us.

We are looking at an offensive round ahead and Xan cannot sucessfully attack anything so why would it be used by people - roids and xp will be the story of rd 47 and xan is the worst race at getting them.

Also a nice cat CR/etd BS teamup lands pretty well on most people for equal value

[isildurx]

stats look p.good, I got nfi what race I'd choose

[budious]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I may not have played the last few rounds but if initing roids and defending them became a better tactic than attacking your enemy I cannot believe there'd be a single person playing this game.

I pretty much did just that this past round. Inited to 1500, used bonus to get another 400. Built FCs and refineries and played defense. Finished 42nd place for only stealing 80 roids and losing around 600. So why did I bother? To prove I could.

[Tiamat101]

It wont get you round wins, but if you build a strat of good def and have some half-decent politics you could put up good #'s for ally or gal rank. Point and case Fang 2rounds ago. They have an init strat and never really lost that many roids all round because of a solid def even during the 3 nights of heavy incs.

[Shev]

Originally Posted by budious

I pretty much did just that this past round. Inited to 1500, used bonus to get another 400. Built FCs and refineries and played defense. Finished 42nd place for only stealing 80 roids and losing around 600. So why did I bother? To prove I could.

You did it in an irrelevant alliance though, and as the round went to the last week it was a good one for neutrals.

[budious]

Originally Posted by Shev

You did it in an irrelevant alliance though, and as the round went to the last week it was a good one for neutrals.

:crymeariver:

Yeah, but it doesn't change the numbers that playing defensively and initing and protecting value can put you in the front with the current system. I was the only terran in DLR so there was no DE flak, just me spamming my own pegs and gryphs and defending ally and galaxy mostly... and I lost 600 roids, capped 80, net loss 520... how many more do I need to lose in a neutral alliance?

[Killeah]

well - just remember stats were , incredibly lame as in - LAME!!! - last round.

I doubt any will sit on 1500 roids for 7 weeks with these stats, unless some political scenario allows so

[Kaiba]

Monroe why do we still have steal ships that int after pods??


And why are sks so insanely expensive??


Answers please

[Mzyxptlk]

The D/C is alright, but the imbalance between the SKs and the other ships in their class makes it ridiculously easy to flak them. Not good.

[baggy]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Monroe why do we still have steal ships that int after pods??


And why are sks so insanely expensive??


Answers please

I was wondering this as well, the costs of SK's and the steal ints of the Corsair & Tycoon?

[budious]

Appocomaster, could you set beta up to reset every 1500 ticks? Kind of dull and boring when everyone is on even start, much more so when top planets already have 20M score ahead of you, but still funner than playing havoc with factory.

[Monroe]

The costs of SKs was done purely based on getting good D/C and A/C ratios, if you would like to propose different costs that have the same or similar D/C and A/C ratios be my guest.

As for the late steal ships, this is an intentional stats decision to force some potentially interesting tactical decisions by players. Personally I don't know if this is a brilliant idea or a terrible one, but we'll find out. Last time this was tried zik got destroyed, but in that case ALL of their steal ships fired after pods. This time with a more balanced approach it might go better, then again maybe not, we shall see.

[Mzyxptlk]

I'd put the SKs costs roughly in line with the other ships in their race & class. By all means, preserve their current D/C and A/C.

When Zik stole after pods, they didn't lose the stealing ships. This most definitely did not cause them to be "destroyed". Quite the opposite. See all of the ships stats from round 14 up to round 20. I don't recall any round after that with slow stealing.

On a related side note:, personally, I'm a little disappointed by the Corsair's D/C, considering its post-pod init. I haven't really looked at the stats that much though.

[SantaCruz]

Those stats mz just showed us. every race has a ship firing after pods. maybe that's why it was abit more balanaced?
we don't need something new and interesting in stats.
we just want to play a balanced round for once.

[Monroe]

The stats in the last two rounds were balanced and they sucked. The primary concern is not balance this round but being attack oriented. It is a good secondary goal to be balanced, but if in the end it's a choice between balance and attack oriented, the stats won't be balanced.

[Mzyxptlk]

Ignore my posts about SK cost. I was wrong.

[TeaBagMagoo]

my only concern is the etd's de and bs's armour need swapping since a battleship primarily has the greatest armour out of any ship class

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Monroe

The stats in the last two rounds were balanced and they sucked. The primary concern is not balance this round but being attack oriented. It is a good secondary goal to be balanced, but if in the end it's a choice between balance and attack oriented, the stats won't be balanced.

These stats are defensive not even close to attack oriented.

Yes i realize good stats you can't pick a setup without something stoping you. Having ships so bloody powerful you just can't hit if they are sent... thats DEFENSIVE. Every setup has around 1 ship that pwns it and 2 that stop it effectively. (that's from 3 of 5 races) examples.
Fi stoped by spider(free fire) peg/beetle/cutlass (co).
FR stoped by Nixies/Phant (fi) *50k nixies stops 150k cutter and free fire on xan*
Cr stoped by spec(free fire) (cr) widow/theif(fr).

Offensive and Defensive is a balance. You can't make one or the other. You can make defensive races and offensive races but, don't try and make everyone offensive. Its impossible the better a race is on attack, the better those ships are on def.

ETD isn't even playable.
Tycoon a Co stealing DE ship init 31. Only good vs ETD DE attacks.
Jugger init 5 cloaked badass ship. Only good vs Voy (init 24 t2). Other then that it's not required....
Vsh init 4 emp. Fires T2 on Co. Xan Spirit init 4 kills Co t1...
The whole race is a mess with it's targeting.

[isildurx]

I don't mind the Tycoon tbh. The fact that it steals DE(which is a etd roidingfleet) means that it can't be too powerful. Even though it's init 31 it can steal plenty of useful ships if flacked / if attack gets emped.

Also, you can use tycoon + pillager to steal Gryphons off of Terrans.

[Monroe]

The Vsh point is noted and I have moved it's init to 2. Should help some.

I'm not sure why you think these are defensive, every race can hit just about every other race. How much more offensive do you want? Do you want attack fleets that are completely unstoppable by anyone? Stats that force you to spread out value between more ship classes are inherently more attack oriented, and I think these do that.

[Zaejii]

Stats are now final barring any changes related to something major that was overlooked.

[Patrikc]

I think what Santacruz means by 'defensive' is that (almost) every fleet can be covered by one other, essentially meaning you still need to lolwave big planets with EMP to get through (and even EMP fleets have Bucc and Spectre against them). While true (for the defwhores amongst us), that's something that will always be present; it's the nature of having a rock-paper-scissors type of game - high activity (and lots of friends/IP addresses!) will always have its rewards.

The term 'offensive stats' comes into play when you can hit a planet alone or with minimum teamup, opening up a lot of opportunities. Whether or not these opportunities will pay off is another matter, but these stats (and most stats with no/limited t2/t3) are definitely 'offensive'. These opportunities are what makes the game interesting, imo, not balanced ones where you build as few different ships as possible with maximum result, and then team up with 5 people on a 500 roid planet to possibly land for 25 roids each.


That's coming from someone who spammed 3 ships last round, initiated to about 1000 roids and didn't get a single incoming after tick 500 (sitting on 1650 roids). *yawn*

[Tiamat101]

^^
I believe my earlier point about init and not actually needing to attack is almost better then building attack based strats. Because until we can see stats where solo's are pleantifull it just doesnt make any sense to attack. If you need atleast 4 other people to land...

[M0RPH3US]

i like this set!

i´ll play again

[Amazee]

nice stats guys
looks like ill come back for a fun filled round...!

[Amazee]

umm i like the look of Xan fi \o/

[Kaiba]

so can i ask if as were starting to presume now the universe ends up mainly terran fi with xan fi and cat co supporting planets that the stats have failed in their intentions to be offensive. Due to the cancelling effect fi/co has on itself...

[baggy]

I like the look of zik frigs and Etd dessie combo.. haven't looked at the fighters for terran, I just know the cutter hurts them (but with the wrong init).

Let's assume everyone who goes fighter or corvette (no matter what race) does cancel each other out. Then more fool them I guess.

The way I see it, it's gonna be a fun round

[Monroe]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

so can i ask if as were starting to presume now the universe ends up mainly terran fi with xan fi and cat co supporting planets that the stats have failed in their intentions to be offensive. Due to the cancelling effect fi/co has on itself...

No set of stats survives contact with the player base. We could play 5 rounds with a single set of stats (this set or others) and each round could have a completely different outcome in terms of race balance, dominant class, and offensive/defensive rounds. Simply put the success of any given fleet strategy depends an awful lot on the choices of an alliance's enemy's fleet choices.

[Plaguuu]

Terran keeping their ac/dc in final stats?

[Kaiba]

We have already been told they are final so i would presume so... :P

[Tiamat101]

I just wish the costs would be adjusted slightly on some of the etd ships

[Zaejii]

Does anyone have any ships that they particularly liked or disliked this round?

For the purpose of research, please provide a valid somewhat descriptive reason and not just a ship name.

Thanks.

Edit: Also, favorite attack fleets if you have one please!

[Monroe]

Xan FR in general I dislike. Other than Bombers they are basically a waste of time... which really limits the faking strategies available to Xans. FR in general are pretty pointless this round.

[isildurx]

Etd De, Xan and Zik FR have been pretty much useless.