Planetarion Forums

xtothez · 10 Jul 2003, 15:35

Now my actions last night appear to be common knowledge, and I've recieved equal praise and scorn for them. I have been both flamed by those with no understanding of what happened, and thanked by those who see me as the one who got rid of their enemies. For anyone willing to read, this is the full story.

Since around Christmas last year I have been running the private tech tools for the BG known as OuZo. Since then it has expanded from a basic private irc with 25 members online, to something to rival any full-blown alliance*. A total of 5 BGs (OuZo, Critters, GTO X-Raid and Olvi) shared the network of 150 registered members and averaging 75 online. I wrote PA-customised IRC services from scratch, a member tools site with arbiter, boards, etc.
In the last few weeks I became suspicious about cheating by certain command members in Ouzo. Planets would launch when I knew their owners were offline, scans from attacks would be obviously done by top players, despite them lacking the ratio to get past a single jammer. All the while the usual public conflict continued. Alliances accusing each oher of cheating, blocking, backstabbing and ****ing each others mothers...

I decided to prove my suspicions right or wrong. I added some code to the IRC to log PMs.
[tech bit]
The code is a simple one-line modification to the IRCD. By default it is not possible to read people's PM's, it requires some extra code in the IRCD and something to parse the messages in services. It also exponentially increases bandwidth and cpu usage, making the modification wildly impractical on larger networks. So for the paranoid - Netgamers opers arent reading your private chat.[/tech bit]

It would be an understatement to say that I was shocked by what I had seen it just 2 nights of logs. Before doing this I told myself that if I found evidence of simple launching for each other, I would ask them nicely to stop, to give them a fair chance considering where the evidence had came from. But nothing could excuse this. Account sharing, asking to farm each other, multi scan/escort accounts on a large scale (one ouzo command member had 4 accounts in para10 alone).

On a personal note, up until last round I had often turned a blind eye to friends bending the rules. Then I was on the recieving end, I was ****ed over by a community of friends who stuck up for each others blatent cheating. They were prepared to destroy the game of anyone they felt like, and there was no way to stop it as the group covered each other. My top 10 account of 2 months playing straight was ruined by people who would never be caught except by their own admission. I realised then that this is where the game is heading. Until people take responsibility for the actions of their friends, the cheaters will always win.

I wasnt proud of what I did. I gave a list of the logs to PA crew and watched as they closed people who considered me their friend. It was what happened next that appalled me. Rather than hold their heads high and admit to cheating, which they all knew they were guillty of, the usual accusations and excuses started. "We've been hacked!", "Eclipse Dossed us!", "PA crew are making up reasons to get us closed because they hate LDK!".

Is this community really so bitter and twisted that they can't admint to their own mistakes? Are you all really so self-involved that you cant concede an inch to the people who fly a different galaxy banner to you in an online database? This does not just apply to ouzo. This happens all over, everyday. A game populated by resentful hypocrites who break the rules every bit as much as those accusing them, yet can be guilty of nothing themselves...

I consider this a statement to the community as a whole. Cheating is killing this game. Mindless accusations and rampant hypocrisy is destroying what alot of people have put alot of work into. And most of all, if HC arent safe on their own private server, who is?

*For anyone who wants to continue the Alliance Vs BG arguement, use another thread ta

MrL_JaKiri · 10 Jul 2003, 15:41

Well said.

ComradeRob · 10 Jul 2003, 15:41

Whilst PM logging is highly unethical and something I would never approve of... I think the end justifies the means in thise case. If it causes people to have to face up to the fact that they have cheated, knowingly covered up cheating amongst their friends, and generally behaved in a totally corrupt manner, then it's a good thing.

cypher · 10 Jul 2003, 15:41

as i said... if they cheated it's good you got em closed...

the way how is fking pathetic tho.

and the fact F2F did NOT get closed is even worse..... something multihunters should look at ... but guess that aint important enough...

xtothez · 10 Jul 2003, 15:44

And I forgot to add a sidenote. Certain individuals have thought of the great of idea of keeping themsleves clean by getting others to cheat for them (lo NaQ). I'd like to take this opportunity to ask for revision of the rules, as currently there are players knowingly getting away with all the benefits of cheating, but without commiting the act themseleves (again, lo NaQ). You are no better than those who break the rules directly, and I hope one day you recieve the appropriate reward.

laputa · 10 Jul 2003, 15:45

There is no excuse for cheating, but there is also no excuse for pm logging. I am really glad that I haven't been on the Ouzo priv server for quite some time now.

Cochese · 10 Jul 2003, 15:46

The grudges run far too deep, after rounds and rounds, it's almost (as dissapointing as this statement is) "natural" for accusations of cheating/hacking/dos'ing to spew forth.

We have a situation where, most of the time, these cheaters aren't caught by PA Team, but by folks like yourself who have some concept of 'right' and 'wrong', and the information that comes their way.

There's no reason you shouldn't feel anything other than good about what you did: you've got more balls than most other people in your situation, with your type of information on such happenings.

Well done

Zeus · 10 Jul 2003, 15:46

xtothez you always did have a good head on your shoulders. You have indeed my full respect for doing what you did and for the reason for your actions.

The people who insult you for doing this, have no idea what the cheating in this game is doing to everyone and WE ALL NEED TO MAKE IT STOP! And stop now! Before we go into round 10.

Those who insult you may call you a trator or even names which hurt most, but who are they to call you name, when they are the foolish ones defending the cheaters, out of blindly following and believing in someone they have only meet through IRC or forums boards and lets be honest, have no idea of the other person true values in life.

Well done xtothez, in my eyes you are a TRUE gamer!

izverg · 10 Jul 2003, 15:49

Quote:

Originally posted by xtothez
. Rather than hold their heads high and admit to cheating, which they all knew they were guillty of, the usual accusations and excuses started. "We've been hacked!", "Eclipse Dossed us!", "PA crew are making up reasons to get us closed because they hate LDK!".

and since when LDK uses your Ouzo irc?

ComradeRob · 10 Jul 2003, 15:50

Quote:

Originally posted by izverg
and since when LDK uses your irc?

LDK members have used it since LDK recruited a bunch of xraid/ouzo/etc. people (meddy and his merry band of account-sharers).

Goatsemaster · 10 Jul 2003, 15:53

I stretch my anal cavity for you.

PM logging is highly unethical. So are wire taps. In real life the latter can be used to save lives, stop crime and whatnot. A short period of PM logging has obviously unearthed a rather seedy underworld. I not only suspect, but know full and well that the consequences of PM logging on other servers would provide at the very least circumstantial evidence of similar behavior. It's not too difficult to work around though.

Anyone who complains about the invasion of privacy can go read the ****ing (m)IRC FAQ (www.irchelp.org ?). And anyone who claims this is 'illegal' can go find the exact paragrah of English law they're refering to or shut the **** up. Thank you.

Zeus · 10 Jul 2003, 15:53

Quote:

Originally posted by ComradeRob
LDK members have used it since LDK recruited a bunch of xraid/ouzo/etc. people (meddy and his merry band of account-sharers).

Meddy, now why do I know that nick so well???

xtothez · 10 Jul 2003, 15:54

Quote:

Originally posted by izverg
and since when LDK uses your irc?

Meddy, Nacho and wishmaster were all closed after their logins were found on ouzo irc. There was also evidence of NaQ benefitting from cheating (using other peoples scan accounts, asking people to launch someone else's escorts for him).

It wasnt long before the pro-LDK crowd were accusing PA crew of fabricating evidence to get LDK planets closed, simply because at that time they didnt understand how their logs leaked.

Dark_Mage · 10 Jul 2003, 15:54

really ace post xtothez, fair play

Fleet_Multiplex · 10 Jul 2003, 15:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeus
xtothez you always did have a good head on your shoulders. You have indeed my full respect for doing what you did and for the reason for your actions.

The people who insult you for doing this, have no idea what the cheating in this game is doing to everyone and WE ALL NEED TO MAKE IT STOP! And stop now! Before we go into round 10.

Those who insult you may call you a trator or even names which hurt most, but who are they to call you name, when they are the foolish ones defending the cheaters, out of blindly following and believing in someone they have only meet through IRC or forums boards and lets be honest, have no idea of the other person true values in life.

Well done xtothez, in my eyes you are a TRUE gamer!

Your not going to ever make it stop Zeus, you've left it to late now its part of pa which will never go away.

Cochese · 10 Jul 2003, 15:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeus
Meddy, now why do I know that nick so well???

You've probably closed him in every round he's played?

Zeus · 10 Jul 2003, 15:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Cochese
You've probably closed him in every round he's played?

YES!!!!! THATS WHY I KNOW IT!!!!

Well spotted Cochese

Som1 · 10 Jul 2003, 15:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Fleet_Multiplex
Your not going to ever make it stop Zeus, you've left it to late now its part of pa which will never go away.

General Martok · 10 Jul 2003, 15:58

I admire that you have the guts to report friends of yours. I'm quite certain most of us would not dare to, due the risk of loosing those friends. The method is harsh, but I think all methods should be allowed to remove the cheating scum of the universe. You might have lost some friends with this action (true friends dont abandon a friendship because of this ofc), but I am quite certain you gained a hell of a lot espect from a lot of gamers, at least mine....

HOPupNdown · 10 Jul 2003, 15:59

can some1 pm me a list of nicks for closed people for future reference ? i feel the pa player community has the right
to know the nicks of these sad people who cheat in
a free half round.

das_experiment · 10 Jul 2003, 15:59

Well done Xtothez

What yuo did was completely right, and you did what few others wuold have done in the same situation.

Well Done

Zeus · 10 Jul 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Fleet_Multiplex
Your not going to ever make it stop Zeus, you've left it to late now its part of pa which will never go away.

Its not my job to make it stop, but if the alliances/community can for once stop accepting it happens and change the mindset that cheating is OK within their ranks, then perhaps that would be a small step in the right direction.

Scorpio · 10 Jul 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by cyphie
as i said... if they cheated it's good you got em closed...

the way how is fking pathetic tho.

and the fact F2F did NOT get closed is even worse..... something multihunters should look at ... but guess that aint important enough...

interesting detail...
At the start of the round, we had a Frankie2Finger in details-list of our galaxy-members... 2 weeks later this account was closed.

laputa · 10 Jul 2003, 16:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Cochese
You've probably closed him in every round he's played?

And yet he was Madcows Military Officer at a time when you were HC.

Forest · 10 Jul 2003, 16:01

PLd xtothez.

What u have done isnt wrong, or bad, and although u may feel a bit lousy now, you ahve no reason too.

And about the guys usnig cheats but not cheating emselves, and with special regards to p8, pm me any information u have, and if it is what I think it is, I will personally see to it that the p8 cheats have their 'reward'. I can be found in #forest most times.

Regards

Lupin · 10 Jul 2003, 16:03

fine thread, and mucho respect to what you have done, i think that was a pretty brave step you made.

however, i think, also you try to clear up the mind of ppl, it is nearly useless, because this an online game and the players dont have to take responsibilty. the distance between different players is that big, that it is easy for them not to care but anyone else but themself.
y cant mankind be naive instead of primitive

ps. you would have done the same, if the cheaters were rl friends of you?

lokken · 10 Jul 2003, 16:05

heh, nice story.

Leshy · 10 Jul 2003, 16:06

Excellent work.

To those claiming that your privacy was violated, I suggest you take some time to think about how your cheating violated the gaming experience of those who didn't cheat.

Preach · 10 Jul 2003, 16:07

First of all, Hi Zeus, hope to see you at the Dublin meet with the rest of the NI boys. Secondly, if they cheat, they should be closed. I dont care whether its a friends account or an adversaries. Cheating is killing the game, its pretty much nearly killed all the fun left in it for me. While the ethics of gaining this information is highly debatable imho, the end has justified the means as Rob has already stated. To the guys I know who were closed, I mean no offence or hold no grudge towards you, my only concern is if all offenders were reported, and not just those players representing one particular alliance/alliances. I guess thats a topic for another thread though. To me it doesnt matter if you are at a top 100 player or a top 3000 player, the cheating must be stopped, however, are these the means we have to revert too, to stop them? Is there no other way to identify and close cheaters? Clearly very worrying and at the very least the most unethical method I have come across yet in PA

To those closed, who actually cheated, I have to say you got your deserved reward. I cant applaud the methods though employed in getting these players closed, in any way, shape or form, so I honestly cant say I am entirely happy or unhappy about how all this has unfolded.....

loki · 10 Jul 2003, 16:07

its nice to see someone who plays this honestly and even if it is players you played with or ones thet r big in your alliance exetra you still do the right thing its kind of refreshing

ComradeRob · 10 Jul 2003, 16:08

Quote:

Originally posted by laputa
And yet he was Madcows Military Officer at a time when you were HC.

And now this same person is your 'HC' in OuZo, right?

OuZo/gosu have plagued by deletions in almost every round they've played, so please don't try to plead ignorance of meddy's history

Lupin · 10 Jul 2003, 16:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeus
Its not my job to make it stop, but if the alliances/community can for once stop accepting it happens and change the mindset that cheating is OK within their ranks, then perhaps that would be a small step in the right direction.

not sure if alliances/community can do something against cheaters.

for some ppl it might be the greatest to see their name once on the top of the planet rankings on scouse pa history (no, i dont mean that you support cheating in anyway) and to get their they will brake the rules...

quite speculative however.. : |

n4m3l355 · 10 Jul 2003, 16:15

Privacy is the penumbra of the Bill of Rights.
Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

a very fitting quote for something like this
i cant say i approve cheating yet its up to your own choice todo or not todo so yet it is very dirty to log pm's as everyone expects those are private. i hope someone ever manages to pull your pm's which contain personal info & posts them online

MrL_JaKiri · 10 Jul 2003, 16:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Lupin
not sure if alliances/community can do something against cheaters.

Alliances certainly can.

laputa · 10 Jul 2003, 16:16

Quote:

Originally posted by ComradeRob
And now this same person is your 'HC' in OuZo, right?

OuZo/gosu have plagued by deletions in almost every round they've played, so please don't try to plead ignorance of meddy's history

I played in Meddy's galaxy last round so I know what he is guilty of. I will not defend him in any way. However, I am not the hardcore-anti-cheat-poster Cochese is - and if he knew that Meddy has been closed several times before I have to ask why did he promote him to Military Officer.

MrL_JaKiri · 10 Jul 2003, 16:16

Quote:

Originally posted by n4m3l355
Privacy is the penumbra of the Bill of Rights.
Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

I hear the bill of rights doesn't apply outside america.

RexDrax · 10 Jul 2003, 16:16

Its nice to see that past mistakes are not being repeated. Lets hope the trend can continue and everyone can get a fair chance at a nice round.

RexDrax · 10 Jul 2003, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by n4m3l355
Privacy is the penumbra of the Bill of Rights.
Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

It can be argued that since he owns the server he owns all the information stored on the server so may do with it as he wishes. But I think getting into that discussion should be saved for another thread if you wish to discuss the merits of who owns the data stored on a server.

Cochese · 10 Jul 2003, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by laputa
And yet he was Madcows Military Officer at a time when you were HC.

As with many, many issues and recruits that round, I did not want him there, and after about a week of him doing jack **** (plus being pasted logs of him asking for someone to launch a multi defense fleet for him--which I reported upon receiving) I tried, tried, and tried some more to have him booted.

Thank RooKie for making a deal with xraid which essentially let any of their members in--almost unconditionally--despite my repititious anti-vouches and complaints.

[edit] Oh, and since you're utterly clueless, "I" did not promote him to military officer. Read above. [/edit]

Goatsemaster · 10 Jul 2003, 16:20

Last time I checked (and admittedly, this is a while ago) Franke2Fingers was playing that top10 planet in 14:6. You sure he was in 38:6 Scorpio? There are certain implications you know...

Anyway, I'd like to thank him for feeding me all the details for when he was going to attack me. It made organizing defense a lot easier

Lupin · 10 Jul 2003, 16:22

Quote:

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Alliances certainly can.

in a way yes, but no to they can stop the 'whole' cheating

Leshy · 10 Jul 2003, 16:27

Quote:

Originally posted by n4m3l355
i hope someone ever manages to pull your pm's which contain personal info & posts them online

XtotheZ never published any personal information, other than people trading logins and passwords.

xtothez · 10 Jul 2003, 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
XtotheZ never published any personal information, other than people trading logins and passwords.

I have since given Nacho access to the logging tools and deleted anything he requested.

LongFell0w · 10 Jul 2003, 16:31

well done xtothez

laputa · 10 Jul 2003, 16:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
XtotheZ never published any personal information, other than people trading logins and passwords.

How thoughtful and nice of him.

Fifth_teletubbie · 10 Jul 2003, 16:39

You've done well XtotheZ.

Heartless · 10 Jul 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Lupin
in a way yes, but no to they can stop the 'whole' cheating

I think they can without a problem. Simply kick out the cheaters.
And other alliances simply should not accept known cheaters.

ParraCida · 10 Jul 2003, 16:45

Good show xtothez, it takes guts to stand up like this.

I don't find the way you did it wrong or whatever, and I think anyone that says its immoral or pathetic is a hypocrit because given the opportunity they'd do the same. This is the same group that got closed in Round 8 so I don't think anyone really questions wether they are guilty or not, and yes it's quite sad they challenge the decision.

Sadly this game has descended into cheating en mass and people taking account sharing and scan accounts for granted.
I am glad to see that the multihunting effort has been increased this round and maybe next round people will think twice before they log into someone else's account to launch.

If more people stood up like this and would not tolerate the people in their surroundings to get away with cheating, this game would be a lot more interesting to play.

Lupin · 10 Jul 2003, 16:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Heartless
I think they can without a problem. Simply kick out the cheaters.
And other alliances simply should not accept known cheaters.

big brother is watching you?

impossible, we would need a cheater board, that alliances do know who cheats.

laputa · 10 Jul 2003, 16:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Heartless
I think they can without a problem. Simply kick out the cheaters.
And other alliances simply should not accept known cheaters.

so you would be allianceless next round then?