Responses from Jolt to your questions.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

PA has many revenue streams some of which would requie little fundng, but if put in place could have big pay backs for the game and ultimately its owners. No real plan for PA seems to be in place and little seems to be done to improve the community as a whole (game is shiet and little money is put into development, and no improvement plan in place). Its a shame fr a community I have ben part of for the best part of 3 years .

u cannot improve a community, only provide facilites for the improvment and improve how you interact with it.

although money may not be put into devlopment at the moment, a lot of resources are. I for one have put a lot of effort into producing a clear plan for round 12 development and even development beyond that. Just becuase you don't see things doesn't mean they arn't happening. You will note that there was a recent announcement on round 12 development, giveing some very brief information on 2 new features - journal and history. I use the word brief purposefully, as the announcement didn't mention all the clever things about thoose new features, suffice it to say Spinner is a genious and both new features look to be amazing. Once they are basically finished i'll try to get u some sexy screen shots, or even better, give us a week or 2 and we might even have enough exciting things to say that we can have an old style creators hour.

The times are changing, some will no doubnt hate the changes, but we hope most will like them and appreciate the huge amount of effort that Pa Team and jolt are putting into PA atm

[biffy]

Whilst I'm not sure how much of the internal workings I can comment on, or the figures mentioned, it should be stated that Nildram *does not* own Jolt. It used to but hasn't done for quite some time.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

u cannot improve a community, only provide facilites for the improvment and improve how you interact with it.

although money may not be put into devlopment at the moment, a lot of resources are. I for one have put a lot of effort into producing a clear plan for round 12 development and even development beyond that. Just becuase you don't see things doesn't mean they arn't happening. You will note that there was a recent announcement on round 12 development, giveing some very brief information on 2 new features - journal and history. I use the word brief purposefully, as the announcement didn't mention all the clever things about thoose new features, suffice it to say Spinner is a genious and both new features look to be amazing. Once they are basically finished i'll try to get u some sexy screen shots, or even better, give us a week or 2 and we might even have enough exciting things to say that we can have an old style creators hour.

The times are changing, some will no doubnt hate the changes, but we hope most will like them and appreciate the huge amount of effort that Pa Team and jolt are putting into PA atm

That wasn't a dig at you or pateam, it was te lack of commerciality that is bein shown.

As a fnance professional and someone who has worked within start ups, set up processes and systems and helped manage new entrant products I find the wa in which PA is run shamblic to say the least.

The game is nothing compared to hw it plaed rounds 9 and before. That needs to be the firm base of the way ahead and help the community understand hw jolt will help PA get back to its former glories. N one I think is against jolt making money n the game, in fact if it secures PA's future I am sure everyone is for it, but at the end of the day it has to be fun and people need to understand those plans - yu never know you may even see more good will from the community.

Simply you can improve the community just by keping them informed and proviing some clarity over how and what jolt want to do with PA..

If PA is THAT important perhaps look at new and innovative ways of increasing the revenue streams - I am sure jolt culd make a packet off pa if they wanted too and as long as the comunity grows and develops with it I am sure the community would want it too..

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by biffy

Whilst I'm not sure how much of the internal workings I can comment on, or the figures mentioned, it should be stated that Nildram *does not* own Jolt. It used to but hasn't done for quite some time.

Thanks for clearing that up.

How about some information on jolts buiness plan (including business development, mission statements and cost recharges to and from simtech?). Also remember the community is not against you per se, it jus cares about the product you control. At the end of the day the community is in the blood of many players that participate round after round.

I guess thats why they play PA - community and game are part of there lives

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by mist

i gather spinner is employed by jolt?

As far as I know, Spinner was brought on as an outside advisor, and is not actually employed by either SimTech or Jolt. Unless that has recently changed, of course.

Think of it as getting the plumber to come over to fix your toilet - you pay him for his services, but you don't somehow become his employer.

[Kal]

spinner is not an employee technically - he invoices jolt for the work he does, so is technicall self employed... but there really isn;t that much difference, it just makes things easier for jolt.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

spinner is not an employee technically - he invoices jolt for the work he does, so is technicall self employed... but there really isn;t that much difference, it just makes things easier for jolt.

erm

no there so a big difference cost and liability wise, I wonder if his CIS are in place though for inland revenue purposes

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

erm

no there so a big difference cost and liability wise, I wonder if his CIS are in place though for inland revenue purposes

i assum spinner does pay his taxes like any good person... but thats his problem not jolts

[mist]

Originally Posted by biffy

Whilst I'm not sure how much of the internal workings I can comment on

i'd imagine, pretty much nothing.

problem is, if you're not allowed to comment people are going to want to know why. and tbh, i can't really think of a good answer. if all the finances are 'good' then letting the community see them would be a benefit, which rather leads to the conclusion that if people arn't allowed to see them, there's something to hide. which probably isn't a good thing

-mist

[wakey]

I'm really not sure that the arrangement that alot of you are assuming are in place are. Its just the way that we dont see statements from Sim-Tech over issues, its not Sim-Tech who are unhappy with the way the community is on their backs for example its Jolt. The companies simply dont be seem to be working independantly enough for that to be the case. After all why would Jolt care what the community thinks if they are making the money anyway, they simply wouldnt.

If I had to guess at how the reletionship between Jolt and Sim-Tech is I would assume its probally more like that found in the the world of films. What happens when a production compant makes a film is they setup a second production company. This then covers the 'parent' company in case things go wrong adn the movie is abadoned half way through or simply fails to turn a profit as its this 'holding' company that incures the debts not the parent company or some other major event that might bring a company down. The parent company then leases everything the holding company needs to them at cost so as far as the accounts are concerned the parent company has broken even so whatever happens they arent in any trouble. If something now happens to the film the holding company takes the full force but because it has limited assets associated with it and limited funds ect they have alot less to lose if they then go bankrupt.

Now this kind of situation to me makes sence for Jolt, they have something which has already seen one company go bankrupt running so they use the dummy company of Sim-Tech to run it from. Jolts books are balanced by this, if the game makes a profit Jolt make a profit as the shareholders in this company and if it goes bust losses are limited as theres no tangiable assest associated with the company. This type of situation just seems to make the fact its Jolt that we are always dealing with and not Sim-tech because Jolt would obviously like to make more profit rather than already having their profit made anyway

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

i assum spinner does pay his taxes like any good person... but thats his problem not jolts

actually its a legal requirement on jolt , but its only where labour is involved, computers and IT are seen as management

[Kal]

had a chat with geoff again via email, and he feels htings are getting a tad off track here, suffice it to say based on things i know now but which cannot be revelaed for comemrical and business reasons which are un related to PA, simtech is not used as a way for jolt to make money out of PA, costs have fallen dramatically since jolt orignally purchased pa, jolt bought pa so it would not die, rather to make money out of it. In effect simtech's existance should be ignored as it has no relevance in the effective way that pa operates.

So to summarise, the future's bright, the future's orange.

(I am not an emplyee of orange, in fact i hate orange, was just bored and needed a stupid qoute)

(Also jolt are cute and cuddly and should be loved by all - yes i am very bored)

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kal

In effect simtech's existance should be ignored as it has no relevance in the effective way that pa operates.

Am I to take that as confirmation that my supsicions that Sim-Tech are there simply to limit the liability for Jolt if PA was to fail again?

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

had a chat with geoff again via email, and he feels htings are getting a tad off track here, suffice it to say based on things i know now but which cannot be revelaed for comemrical and business reasons which are un related to PA, simtech is not used as a way for jolt to make money out of PA, costs have fallen dramatically since jolt orignally purchased pa, jolt bought pa so it would not die, rather to make money out of it. In effect simtech's existance should be ignored as it has no relevance in the effective way that pa operates.

So to summarise, the future's bright, the future's orange.

(I am not an emplyee of orange, in fact i hate orange, was just bored and needed a stupid qoute)

(Also jolt are cute and cuddly and should be loved by all - yes i am very bored)

well I still think questions need answering - no just about game design either.

Its fine hiding beind commercial confidentiality, and without being rude why isn't geoff fposting here?

The community deserves to have more information about the game it plays. No one gives a stuff if jolt makes 5 billion off pa - the community wants to see forward steps in bringing the community forward and to get a real understanding of commercially where the game is going so in 2 years time we are not being sold again.

I think some of the questions I have asked of jolt aren't hugely problematic, just shows the lack of communication between the PA community and Jolt really and te defficiences in that process.

Every company has a goal, well fr PA to be succssful that gal has to be bought into by all the stakeholders involved, not just you kal.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by wakey

Am I to take that as confirmation that my supsicions that Sim-Tech are there simply to limit the liability for Jolt if PA was to fail again?

your are not meant to take it for anything other than what it was

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

well I still think questions need answering - no just about game design either.

Its fine hiding beind commercial confidentiality, and without being rude why isn't geoff fposting here?

The community deserves to have more information about the game it plays. No one gives a stuff if jolt makes 5 billion off pa - the community wants to see forward steps in bringing the community forward and to get a real understanding of commercially where the game is going so in 2 years time we are not being sold again.

I think some of the questions I have asked of jolt aren't hugely problematic, just shows the lack of communication between the PA community and Jolt really and te defficiences in that process.

Every company has a goal, well fr PA to be succssful that gal has to be bought into by all the stakeholders involved, not just you kal.

didn;t know we were discussing goals

[Blacknova]

@ Biffy : It was me who was confused about the nature of the Jolt / Nildram pairing, thanks for clearing that up, I was aware the two were fairly tightly knit as some point in recent history, and I believe that the network infrastructure is still nildrams (what's the point of building up your own network when Nildrams got a damn good one already in place).

@ Wakey : That would be my immediate thought, the words "shell company" spring to mind. The odds are that Sim-Tech and the finances thereof are actually fairly trivial in terms of their importance to this, more likely Sim-Tech gives Jolt an out if god forbid PA was to go down the toilet.

I think tbh we've already figured out that there are costs going into PA which needn't be there, and resources required (like money) that aren't being provided. Ideas and plans are all fine and well, but no money in development means that any progress is going to be haphazard at best, and minimal at worst. It also lends credence to my theory that Jolt purchased PA more as a PR move and low risk investment as opposed to any great "love" for the game or community.

Which is unfortunate really... a lot of good ideas in this thread from many people, and most of them won't see the light of day.

Nova

[mist]

Originally Posted by Kal

based on things i know now but which cannot be revelaed for comemrical and business reasons which are un related to PA, simtech is not used as a way for jolt to make money out of PA

that sounds sooo like jolt are up to something dubious :P

anyway. so, basically, we have to trust jolt on this one? given that the majority of people who seem to post around here seem unconvinced that pa doesn't make money, this seems unlikely.

out of interest, where would geoff rather people looked? currently, a lot of people believe that p2p is the worst thing that's happened to planetarion. therefore it seems reasonable to look at ways to get rid of it, which means reducing costs - which i personally still believe are too high. if he's got any better suggestions as to how to end p2p i'm sure the community would be excited.

-mist

[wakey]

I have to say I agree with Rumad, from Kal's post and the fact Its been shown that Geoff has 'kicked up a fuss' over things posted here, it seems clear that he is reading the forums. Now I know hes probally busy but if hes reading them surly he can spend 5 mins to post a reply. Its all well and good getting others to post on your behalf but when these people (Kal in particular) have no real clue on whats going on and certainly isnt sure how much they can say of the little they do it does just make people a little sceptical. A post by himself would no doubt do a world of good for Jolt and his reputation in the community which lets be honest needs alot of work.

@Nova. I'm not sure it was bought as a PR thing. From my discussions with biffy when he took offence to something I posted he seemed to very much suggest that Jolt simply underestimated the scale of PA's problems. I think they simply looked at how many players the game did have and thought that with their infrostructure they could get it back to those levels and make a nice amount of money at the same time. What they seem to have not looked at (and the fact biffy was the most recent player of PA on the jolt staff and he hadnt played since the 'glory days' cant have helped them here) was simply where the community was at, The community simply wasnt going to get back into a healthy state without major gaming changes and alot of time, effort and money to rebuild it and they simply didnt seem to realise this till after they bought it. Jolts acquisition of PA simply strikes me as a companys version of an impulse buy where they have bought and made promises first and then thought about after. They have hence simply been unable to take big steps and have had to do it in small steps which do seem to be paying off each round

As for the whole "cheaper servers/bandwith elsewhere2. Now we seem to have established Sim-tech is just a shell company I do have to wonder is moving them to somewhere cheaper actually cheaper. Jolt have the servers ect already, is then paying someone else for something you already have waiting cheaper as your paying for many of the things twice in this situation. Ok the bandwith is paid per mb so your saving if you move to soemwhere with cheaper bandwith suppliers but the servers and techinicains are there for Jolt where ever so at the end of the day Jolt would be paying for these things twice.

[mist]

pa has to pay jolt for the servers, the same as it would pay anyone else. it makes sense for jolt to do it, but possibly not for pa. hence the interest - does jolt do what's right for pa or right for jolt.

-mist

[Kal]

we have allready gone into the reasons for the servers being where they are etc.

i also don;t think that the server and bandwidth costs are that important based on current players for long term stability and growth

[mist]

you've already said that spinner doesn't get paid much. if the server/bandwidth costs are unimportant then what IS pa spending it's money on?

-mist

[Kal]

this is the point none of the individual costs are huge but they add up, also there is paying back last years losses etc.

[mist]

paying back last years losses seems reasonable.

however, i can still only see costs:
spinner
biffy
servers
bandwidth

somewhere, my understanding of your maths seems to be lacking

-mist

[Kal]

Originally Posted by mist

paying back last years losses seems reasonable.

however, i can still only see costs:
spinner
biffy
servers
bandwidth

somewhere, my understanding of your maths seems to be lacking

-mist

last year:

buying pa
zeus
fudge

zeus and fudge may not ahve been much, but still costs

(i have no idea how much and for obviosu reasons jolt won;t be telling anyone)

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by Kal

Rememeber the was the server rentla and the paying a lto more than just spinner back them - i belive spinner/fudge/zeus were all piad then, we had more servers then - costs were HUGE then.

Jez a lot of discussion over little things:-/

1. PA is owned by Simtech
2. Simtech is a holding company which Jolt own.
3. I have never been paid by Simtech/Jolt.

Hope this helps.

[mist]

many people feel that were pa finances rejigged the game could be free, and therefore would have more players, making the game great again etc etc.

the first step to understanding this would seem to be examining the outgoings. hence the fuss, i suspect. that and some seem to find the idea of jolt proffiting from pa, while saying they don't, interesting.

-mist

[Zeus]

You have most of the costs in this thread,

Rented servers
(dont forget db server)
Bandwidth
Pay as you use bandwidth
Wages
Spinner part-time (minimal amount)
Biffy (employeed by Jolt for other tasks so not cost to PA)
Bank Charges
CC charges for all visa & mastercard

I've done this quickly so may have left a cost out somewhere, but this is the basics of it. Dont forget if working out costs over a year to include the gap between rounds where there is no income on this equipment.

[Mit]

As far as I remember, the DB was on one of Jolt's servers... (this is what i was told, i was never given any form of game server / db server access) so u can count that server out.
Forums - again on a jolt server.
That leaves jpaweb01, Speed and portal servers. (jpaweb02 died and dunno if it ever got fixed - they both have the same IP now)
jpaweb01.planetarion.com. 49099 IN A 195.149.21.26
jpaweb02.planetarion.com. 48952 IN A 195.149.21.26

But they are all a one off cost (appart from hardware repairs - but they should be covered under warentees if they were new items of hardware, if not... blagged costs?)
Bandwidth - i'll give em that, but what does that cost... pence / mb (they'll have some 'deal' that means its cheaper than for normal users)

Wages - Spinner fine, but not full time. Biffy is hired for other Jolt purposes... PA comes under him thou.

Bank charges etc - fair enough, but they won't be -that- much.

[biffy]

I've spoken to Geoff and we aren't going to comment on the figures mentioned here or what makes up the costs of Planetarion. It is sensitive financial information and I'd be surprised if any online company would be willing to divulge the information that some people here seem to think we should.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by biffy

I've spoken to Geoff and we aren't going to comment on the figures mentioned here or what makes up the costs of Planetarion. It is sensitive financial information and I'd be surprised if any online company would be willing to divulge the information that some people here seem to think we should.

No one cares if you make a profit biffy or what the actuals are. I will restate my wilingness to look at the figures by entering a NDA to audit and help you. I have been an accountant now for 7 years in one role or another and I have more experience at commercial accounting than most.

All the community wants is a better understanding of where the cash is going. The customers are stakeholders and while we aren't expecting to lay your balls and all on the table, there is certain information you should be able to tell us.

A business plan does not mean disclose your cashflow for PA or any of jolts other enterprises. PA players are suprisingly interested only in PA.

PA is a entity by itself, while we may become a bigger part of the jolt community itself, and members of the jolt community may join PA, at the end of the day this community is here to play PA.

Two elements worry me as one of those players. Firstly you are very resistant to a free game, but yet you will not disclose figures to back that up. I myself find that concerning as a stakeholder in the community and someone that has done a lot of research into how funding for planetarion could ostensibly make it a free game or minimal outlay game and I wor as to the costs planetarion are incurring to force such a decision.

Secondly the community is concerned about the costs which the game might be incurring and how those costs could be minimised. PA was always most successful as a free entity - there are other ways of funding PA without entering pay to play arrangements. These should at the very least be maximised to limit the reliance on cash from players and at best securing a structured pay system rather than massively fluctuating prices.

Thirdly the lack of communication from the owners about the direction of pa and what plans jolt have in place and these working as a cohesive and fully inclusive strategy have not been forthcoming. This leads many of the senior members of the community to feel restless and at worst worry about the community and its members future as part of the jolt empire.

I don't think this is particularly wrong. In retail there is a general the adage which is "the customer is always right". We are your customer and while no one wants you to release very specific commercially sensitive data the community has a right to know and understand the costs and the direction in whch jolt are taking PA.

At the end of the day all the community wants is PA to survive and prosper, which would ultimately result in Jolt prospering.

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by Zeus

You have most of the costs in this thread,

Rented servers
(dont forget db server)
Bandwidth
Pay as you use bandwidth
Wages
Spinner part-time (minimal amount)
Biffy (employeed by Jolt for other tasks so not cost to PA)
Bank Charges
CC charges for all visa & mastercard

I've done this quickly so may have left a cost out somewhere, but this is the basics of it. Dont forget if working out costs over a year to include the gap between rounds where there is no income on this equipment.

Rented servers... o_O .... okay... for the kind of firepower involved that must be pretty damn hefty.

Pay as you use bandwidth ... I can see why, but I can also see a KER-CHING sign light up... that's the kind of decision that comes back to haunt you later.

Wages ... minimal as we've got the hint from

Bank Charges .... unless you're in debt these are usually trivial or minimal, ditto for CC charges, esp if you don't use someone like Worldpay.

Nova

[mist]

mit: as far as i'm aware, the database server is a dedicated pa server.

also, the CC costs are significantly higher than you'd think, as there's a minimum fee on each transaction, and £10 is quite a low transaction really.

revealing figures... tbh, i'm not shocked. however, you must realise that while you're unwilling to reveal figures you can't expect people to understand why pa costs money, when many others here are saying, quite believably, that they could run it for free - this rather leads to the conclusion that jolt are running it baddly, for their own ends etc etc etc. personally, i believe that revealing figures would do jolt's rep an awful lot of good.

realistically, what is there to reveal?

if we want to know how much bandwidth pa uses, we can go ask dave - he's run something fairly similar so i'd say he'll have a fair estimate. if we want to know how much pa's paying for a server we can go look it up on your own website in the uberserver bit. we know how many signups there were. pretty much the only things stopping us are wage bills and laziness. therefore, as most of the numbers will be what we know anyway, it would have seemed in jolt's interest to give a little and gain a lot of respect for doing so - assuming the books arn't cooked of course

-mist

[Mit]

Originally Posted by mist

mit: as far as i'm aware, the database server is a dedicated pa server.

What I Was told was the PA DB server, is in the .jolt.co.uk domain space and has the same IP as one of Jolt's webservers. Without saying which one. but, i'd be VERY supprised if it is... perhaps its the forums db, but i'm just going from what i was told while i was team.

[Smudge]

so where is this leading?
its all good speculating about things, but what do you actually want from Jolt and in return, what are Jolt willing to do?

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Smudge

so where is this leading?
its all good speculating about things, but what do you actually want from Jolt and in return, what are Jolt willing to do?

I stated quite concisely what I would like to see in my last post. The real quesion is what is Jolt wiling to do to help resolve this.

[Smudge]

*opens the floor to Jolt

[mist]

Originally Posted by Mit

What I Was told was the PA DB server, is in the .jolt.co.uk domain space and has the same IP as one of Jolt's webservers. Without saying which one. but, i'd be VERY supprised if it is... perhaps its the forums db, but i'm just going from what i was told while i was team.

i thought that the forums were on the weebl+bob machine, as when the forums get hit it goes down, and vice versa

-mist

[Mit]

forums are on cs-maps.jolt.co.uk

wheebl is on 195.149.21.9 (which is the same as what i recall the "pa db" being on - be it forums db or game, i ain't sure)

if its the case that its the forums db, the forum is spread over 2 JOLT servers.

I keep hearing about 'large server costs' but i can't find where they'd be as the servers should be a 1 off cost.

It is curious where money is going.

[Kal]

imho costs probably arn't huge, but income is pretty low once the credit card fees are removed from payment. Bare in mind that since jolt took over PA they intorduced free accounts, reduced operating costs, and lowered prices to users. So savings are passed on to the customers.

[mist]

that would be the forums db then. i know the game db is on a dedicated machine.

the servers are rented per month, i believe, as for a clanserver.

if the servers are indead dual xeons then i guess that'd put them in the same league as the uberservers, which cost clans £399 a month. with 3-5 of those i can see where 'huge server costs' come from

-mist

[Mit]

dual p3 1ghz, 1gb ram, 20gb scsi iirc

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Mit

dual p3 1ghz, 1gb ram, 20gb scsi iirc

that server doesn't seem that uber to me

[biffy]

I believe I set out what our response would be with regards to figures in my previous post and no amount of speculation is going to change that.

I can appreciate that the community would like to know how much is spent on each aspect of the game, and how much income we get, but it is sensitive commercial information and no company in their right minds would disclose their costs and revenues in such detail given the fact that we do have competitors in this area. Even giving totals would be of use to such competitors and signing an NDA doesn't mean you get access to such information either. For what it is worth you have covered the main areas involved with costs so there isn't much more to add on this subject, although a few things have been left out.

Since January we've taken measures to reduce costs where it has been practical - cutting the number of servers we use as an example because the extra (idle) capacity hasn't been needed with Spinner doing the bulk of ongoing development. We've also reduced the price of the game from PaX levels to make it easier for people to get involved and to reflect these lower costs. We'll continue to look at both these areas, and others, in an effort to offer the best possible game at an affordable price, along with re-investing money Planetarion has in areas such as marketing that, long term, should benefit the game.

Additionally we are open to looking at alternative suggestions for the funding of Planetarion but the majority of the ones that have come our way rely on hope rather than any fact and simply don't offer the long-term stability that having a simple pay-2-play system does.

[hinchles]

because pa in current state doesnt require alot of processing power if coded effeciently

infact from what i can tell its now pages doing direct db interaction no longer being compiled c pages like old pa and no middle layer for redundancy/stability anymore. ie its now just a nice plain old boring website

ofc without talking in detail to people i got no clue all i know is the old pa system

[mist]

i believe there is a little more to it than hinch suggests.

as you say biffy, jolt won't reveal things. hence the speculation. i'd quite like to know, and i'm sure there are people, such as hinch, who can give me a fair idea of what jolt won't.

tbh tho, i fail to see how knowing how much pa costs to run would help the competition. if, as i suspect, it's overly expensive then they can all have a giggle at its expense - end of the world - and if it's cheaper, jolt might gain some customers. neither seems particularly earth shattering.

-mist

[mist]

oh, forgot, for the record - dave was happily disclosing the incommings and outgoings of pia, which was (dunno about now) the primary competition. can i assume biffy's previous post is aimed at questioning dave's sanity?

-mist

[biffy]

As far as I know PIA doesn't charge users which makes the comparison inaccurate. When I was at BarrysWorld (before the days of investment) the owners would happily say how much they were spending on various things out of their own pockets. As soon as it became a company charging for services that all changed, as it had to.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one mist.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by mist

i believe there is a little more to it than hinch suggests.

as you say biffy, jolt won't reveal things. hence the speculation. i'd quite like to know, and i'm sure there are people, such as hinch, who can give me a fair idea of what jolt won't.

tbh tho, i fail to see how knowing how much pa costs to run would help the competition. if, as i suspect, it's overly expensive then they can all have a giggle at its expense - end of the world - and if it's cheaper, jolt might gain some customers. neither seems particularly earth shattering.

-mist

example:

jolt competes with company x

jotl publishes what it spends on things

company x then says "damn we spend to much on that, look what jolt gets away with spending"

company x then moves to lower costs

company x gains a competitive advantage

unless company x then tells its customers that it is less efficent than jolt it isn't going to loose customers.

hence unless all companies plan on telling the world detailed information then jolt cannot even if it wanted to

*This is a made up example and bares no resemblance to any actualy companies or customers.*

[mist]

yes, because people really care about the costs of the FREE competition.

hate to break it to you kal, but the only useful part of that post was the last line

-mist