User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Planetarion Related Forums > Planetarion Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 11:56   #51
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
we also don;t have as many rounds per year as he implies, and he neglects coder costs and the fact that we are using expensive uk based servers for whatever reason.

just bare in mind that pa team and jolt have probably considered all of that at some point, so there are probabyl good reasons for not having done something simmilar. time will tell what changes come in the future.

edit: uk based servers will be becuase for all of jolt's other products low latency is important

He didnt neglect the fact that you used uk hosting, he questioned it.

Also, what reason does Jolt have to _REQUIRE ALL_ their products to be run from UK? What would be the problem of setting up pa servers in Sweeden or Norway?

Choosing expensive hosting over cheap, choosing hardcore bandwidth when you really dont need it.. It sounds a bit silly to be honest.

-TheRat
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 11:58   #52
Blacknova
Zhil's Monkeyboy
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
Blacknova is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
we also don;t have as many rounds per year as he implies, and he neglects coder costs and the fact that we are using expensive uk based servers for whatever reason.

just bare in mind that pa team and jolt have probably considered all of that at some point, so there are probabyl good reasons for not having done something simmilar. time will tell what changes come in the future.

edit: uk based servers will be becuase for all of jolt's other products low latency is important
I did include server costs in case you didn't notice, and I said that there was a lot of "fat" in the costs. Low latency is not exactly a factor in PA, this isn't counterstrike, and like I said, we're not getting the server load imo to justify anything more heavy duty than a low end Xeon rig or a very high spec P4 box. Since I wouldn't have to blow £300-400 on a good graphics card (shame really, us BOFH's like our free upgrades ) I could get a rather significant boost in the CPU horsepower department.

UK hosting is still goofy, period, we have some of the highest bandwidth charges in the world I kid you not. What you pay for a half megabit DSL line here would get you enough bandwidth to run half a dozen servers elsewhere. And leased lines here are particularly :eek: , I know, I dealt with UUnet about getting one for the company I used to work at.

The 7 week rounds idea was a suggestion, not a statement, something maybe you could consider as a means of improving the game flow and monetary income by not allowing lengthy rounds to stagnate (7 weeks is long enough to determine a winner comfortably).

As for coder costs, not being funny, if you're generating 6 rounds worth of income over a year with an average of say 1000 accounts that means after you take the costs that I put together OUT you are still left with £25k or thereabouts, which ought to buy you enough coder time to get *some* bugs fixed, no?

EDIT : Pick up on this -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mist
however, you did neglect a beta/speed games box. probably a small niggle tho, and the speed games would probably pay for it
This is true, but bear in mind most speed games you're going to see 100-200 users on there maximum, even if you run only 4 a year that makes the system utterly self sustaining, since you're simply using the same code / code in development you're not adding to costs, and the strain on the server is trivial (some companies will even loan servers gratis for these sort of purposes if they get some free advertising out of it).

Nova
__________________
Chemical Brothers - Loops of [1up] - Music to MO to...

Last edited by Blacknova; 2 Aug 2004 at 12:09.
Blacknova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 12:13   #53
Leshy
Mr. Blobby
 
Leshy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
Also, what reason does Jolt have to _REQUIRE ALL_ their products to be run from UK?
Physical server access, perhaps.
__________________
http://www.leshy.net
Leshy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 12:25   #54
mist
Jolt's best friend
 
mist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
mist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to all
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
we also don;t have as many rounds per year as he implies, and he neglects coder costs and the fact that we are using expensive uk based servers for whatever reason.

just bare in mind that pa team and jolt have probably considered all of that at some point, so there are probabyl good reasons for not having done something simmilar. time will tell what changes come in the future.

edit: uk based servers will be becuase for all of jolt's other products low latency is important
jolt have given pateam some financial figures nowadays?

tbh, if jolt wanted to they could host pa elsewhere. personally, i don't know anything about hosting, but i get the impression that it could be done much cheaper elsewhere.

plus, there's a difference between having considered something, and having examined it properly. people tend to give more consideration to what they know, or are already doing - and voilla, it's the only possible solution. i hate to return to the old argument, but pia managed with no coder expenses and paying for servers via google ads. why can't pa do the same. was pia better run?

-mist
__________________
<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 13:01   #55
wakey
Hamster
 
wakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
wakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

As ive said before I dont think you can seriously run this game on google ads, your putting its whole existance in the hands of a 3rd party by doing this. Now while google is unlikly to go bankrupt like happened with the last ad serving firm PA used google are prone to shutting your account down for unusual activity,. If you receive too many hits from an ip a day on these things google will and do close your account and take all the money you made out of them. Maybe it could be used to supliment income but they certainly shouldnt stop aiming to make a profit via the current means.

Your also forgetting that the income they take isnt what they have to spend, for starters theres transactions costs, then as jolt is a registered company theres tax to be paid ect ect.

Also I have to say that while Nova comes off as sounding like he knows what hes talking about he does seem to leave some gaps. For starters hes forgetting that most people wont pay for something if they dont have to. People are simply not going to be as inclined to upgrade to a premuim account which makes generating income harder. Then you have the fact that a free round means more players, more players means more strain which means better equipement is needed, which then means charging premuim account members more which means fewer of them ect ect.

Also he mentions that he belives it could be run on a 1mbit pipe. Now I cant recall what the pipe was that was used in r1 but I do seem to recall it was bigger than that and for most of that roudn teh figures WERENT larger than they are now. However the game would regularry trip up, sometimes it was too many requests for the webserver to handle, sometimes too many request for the db server to handle but at peak times it was also the fact the pipe couldnt handle the amount of traffic Now by using a pipe that isnt large enough to cover the peak loads and have some spare capcity your asking for trouble, its like your ISP saying ok for the hours midnight to 8pm the usage doesnt go above 20% of our capacity, so lets cut it back our bandwith to save money even though during the hours 8pm to midnight the load is such that it struggles to cope. How unhappy would you be if you couldnt login to scan and pull your ships and they were all destroyed because they had cut corners.
__________________
Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
Co-founder of [F-Crew]
The Farnborough Crew
Cos anything else is just an alliance
Join our public channel at #f-crew
wakey is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 13:23   #56
Blacknova
Zhil's Monkeyboy
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
Blacknova is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
.Also I have to say that while Nova comes off as sounding like he knows what hes talking about he does seem to leave some gaps. For starters hes forgetting that most people wont pay for something if they dont have to. People are simply not going to be as inclined to upgrade to a premuim account which makes generating income harder. Then you have the fact that a free round means more players, more players means more strain which means better equipement is needed, which then means charging premuim account members more which means fewer of them ect ect.
Like I said, it depends on what is included in the premium accounts, a lot of games make money off of the idea that you offer additional features over and above the basic game. It's culled "pull" selling and the idea is that you tempt users to upgrade by saying "here, you can play the basic game as is, OR you can pay us not much money, and gain access to a whole slew of optional features", which is how I suspect most of GG will work for instance. And that's not the only revenue stream I mentioned...

Mist suggested beta / speeders, which WOULD be P2P since they are a different kettle of fish, and provided you do say 6 a year (which is pretty minimal) you could generate a little extra out of that. Merchandise and retail partnerships is the second option, and given the possible customer base if handled correctly could prove quite lucrative. Upgrade accounts are the third option, and tbh P2P either has to be done fully or not at all, currently it's a "halfway" house solution which does neither. I already thought of these issues at least, however...

As for the massive numbers of free accounts thing, well, that's a potential mid to long term problem, if need be you could put a hard cap on the number of accounts able to join up if that became a serious issue (r2 had an insane number of accounts, most of which didn't do much, but the active userbase was close to 10x what it is now). Again, that's more server load than bandwidth since as I already mentioned, bandwidth is at a premium in the UK, and not in other chunks of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakey
Also he mentions that he belives it could be run on a 1mbit pipe. Now I cant recall what the pipe was that was used in r1 but I do seem to recall it was bigger than that and for most of that roudn teh figures WERENT larger than they are now. However the game would regularry trip up, sometimes it was too many requests for the webserver to handle, sometimes too many request for the db server to handle but at peak times it was also the fact the pipe couldnt handle the amount of traffic Now by using a pipe that isnt large enough to cover the peak loads and have some spare capcity your asking for trouble, its like your ISP saying ok for the hours midnight to 8pm the usage doesnt go above 20% of our capacity, so lets cut it back our bandwith to save money even though during the hours 8pm to midnight the load is such that it struggles to cope. How unhappy would you be if you couldnt login to scan and pull your ships and they were all destroyed because they had cut corners.
You don't think that could be because at the time hardware was not sophisticated enough to handle "spikes" in user activity hmmm? Bandwidth does not = load...

The worst that happens if the pipe isn't big enough is that the game pages and accesses will slow down somewhat, which will generally only happen if you get a few hundred users all trying to log in at once, which given the nature of the game isn't exactly likely. As long as the server itself is up to task it shouldn't trip at all. 1mbit constant throughflow is enough to be able to serve a stupid amount of pages per second near instantly (bearing in mind the PAX interface is 90% text and common graphics which once loaded are the same throughout).

Nova
__________________
Chemical Brothers - Loops of [1up] - Music to MO to...
Blacknova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 13:35   #57
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

technically speaking we do have a free account and a premium account system

its also worth adding that when jolt intially bought pa there was a free round and a long devlopment time where they recieved no income before pax - that defecit needs mkaing up before we can get investments back from any profits that are made e.g. a £10k profit this year would be uased to pay back last years £10k loss for example.

I think its fair to say that 1 of two things are needed: lots of marketing, or better free accounts or of course both.

Of course lets say the playerbase doubles, that then puts a lot more pressure on the admins in terms of the time they have to spend to maintain performance levels - so we might get to the stage where it is unfair to have people working the whole time for PA and not get paid. So the bigger the game gets the higher the costs will be, or the more people we have to trust not to break things

I think this has been a useful thread, and i'm sure jolt and other Pa Team members are following it closly.
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 13:49   #58
Chaos
Registered User
 
Chaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Oslo,Norway
Posts: 215
Chaos will become famous soon enoughChaos will become famous soon enough
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

I don't think PA will ever be free again. and I don't think it should. p2p has not only redused players. but it has also redused multies. who's going to run a giga bot net when they hafto pay for every multi planet?
But when you have free account like we have today. we still get ppl multiing with the free accounts. But atleast they are limited abit.

one restriction that would be a good idea for free planets is to not allow them to join an alliance ingame with a free account. That alone should be a good reason for ppl to upgrade. and they shouldn't be allowed to join buddy packs. (but not seeing the gal status that's just lame, they should be allowed todo that)

I don't mind paying to play PA. infact HR does pay for some of our members. if they have a realy good reason they can't pay them self. It's not like it cost that much. (perhaps some annoying adds could be placed on free accounts also?)
__________________
R2-R3 : n00b
R4 : HR BC
R5-R6 : HR Techie
R7-R11 : HR HC / NoS Head Techie / NoS WC
R12 : Retired <- GF gives ultimatum. PA or Her.
R13 : HR Peon -> BC -> MC (GC of Winning Gal)
R14 : HR HC
R15 : Retired <- GF dumps me cuz of PA.
R16 : HR Peon
R19 : Omen BC
R20-R30 : Retired
R31 : HR Peon

Someone give me a dictionary.
Cuz I don't seem to know what retired means. =/
Chaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 14:12   #59
Blacknova
Zhil's Monkeyboy
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
Blacknova is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
technically speaking we do have a free account and a premium account system
In the loosest sense of the term imaginable. In reality it's P2P with a massively crippled "demo" account that sits alongside it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
its also worth adding that when jolt intially bought pa there was a free round and a long devlopment time where they recieved no income before pax - that defecit needs mkaing up before we can get investments back from any profits that are made e.g. a £10k profit this year would be uased to pay back last years £10k loss for example.
That assumes the profits don't wind up in the shareholders pockets, given that PA is a department of Jolt and I would guess that finances are eventually centralised there is very little need to "pay back" any losses, instead what happens is those costs are included in the final accounts (hence the "loss leader" concept).

However, the level of earning a product will make is pretty limited if it is run in the current manner that it is (PA being ancillary to Jolts product line) largely due to the fact there is no motivation or reason to massively push the game, nor is there any motivation or reason to implement significant changes in the codebase.

One could argue this is because Jolt took this on as a commercial venture (which requires a radically different strategy to the one they currently employ), and therefore do not "love" the game and lack the desire to see changes implemented as it creates a drain on their resources to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I think its fair to say that 1 of two things are needed: lots of marketing, or better free accounts or of course both.

Of course lets say the playerbase doubles, that then puts a lot more pressure on the admins in terms of the time they have to spend to maintain performance levels - so we might get to the stage where it is unfair to have people working the whole time for PA and not get paid. So the bigger the game gets the higher the costs will be, or the more people we have to trust not to break things

I think this has been a useful thread, and i'm sure jolt and other Pa Team members are following it closly.
Both + a hell of a lot more on top tbh... This whole mantra of "the commercial experience" which is pushed by companies (not just Jolt) is, frankly speaking, bollocks. It's simply an attempt to move real world captialism and economics into an area where such rules do not apply (see the revised napster, or iTunes for a rough idea of the old world principles failing in the virtual economy).

You can't make people pay for something on the internet, you have to get them to want what you offer (see AllofMP3 / ebay / google's commercial services for examples of products which are desirable enough to encourage usage). In PA that means altering your perception of selling, you don't *force* people to upgrade by hobbling the free accounts, you give them a glimpse of the extra features they could have, and the benefits they will reap from a richer game experience.

If the playerbase doubles and revenues catapult, Jolt will almost certainly have to start paying the PA team something for their time and effort, though that's ultimately your problem to resolve

Nova

EDIT : Please note this post is opinion only, and is not representative of any group or organisation I am affiliated to. (really need to put that in my sig).
__________________
Chemical Brothers - Loops of [1up] - Music to MO to...
Blacknova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 14:22   #60
hinchles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 55
hinchles is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

on the side note of pa making profit and being free not being the way togo.

Blatant obvious answer is PA doesnt make money. You offer it free because of what it stands for not what it can bring you. You fund the running of it via external methods and consider pa as simply a cash sink.

You dont plan to make pa make you money you plan for pa to loose you money and so make the money else where.

I'll be launching an MMORPG shortly that will be 100% free for people to download and play. Yet i wont loose money. Now if its possiable on a MMORPG who's requirements are greatly in excess of what pa would require then running pa free is a neglegiable task.
__________________
www.furious-angels.com
Furious Angels Founder
hinchles is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 14:53   #61
Rumad
th0ng gimp
 
Rumad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
Rumad has a spectacular aura aboutRumad has a spectacular aura about
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinchles
on the side note of pa making profit and being free not being the way togo.

Blatant obvious answer is PA doesnt make money. You offer it free because of what it stands for not what it can bring you. You fund the running of it via external methods and consider pa as simply a cash sink.

You dont plan to make pa make you money you plan for pa to loose you money and so make the money else where.

I'll be launching an MMORPG shortly that will be 100% free for people to download and play. Yet i wont loose money. Now if its possiable on a MMORPG who's requirements are greatly in excess of what pa would require then running pa free is a neglegiable task.
Well they also negated the "strategic partnerships and the income pa brought of PA plaers signing up for the jolt premium services.

As hinch states PA isn't something that will make money - its the periphery where yu can make money and then you might if your lucky break even.

So muc can be done with PA - you don't have to take moeny off ppl - most f whom live in poorer countries and require support or are too young to be able to pay over the net.

Too little thought has gone into the commercial aspects of PA for far too long. It really needs someone who would work simply on gaining funding to support the game. Pay to play from my role as a management accountant is a weak business plan model. So many ways to raise finance and only one requires someone to charge players.
__________________
No one significant ;o)
Former FAnG HC
Former JoV daddy
Former legion th0ng master
Proud to be Independent
Rumad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 15:13   #62
mist
Jolt's best friend
 
mist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
mist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to all
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

kal, why do jolt host planetarion in the uk?

if hosting is cheaper elsewhere, and jolt want pa to be a success, surely it would make sense for them to host it elsewhere?

-mist
__________________
<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 15:18   #63
Rumad
th0ng gimp
 
Rumad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
Rumad has a spectacular aura aboutRumad has a spectacular aura about
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
kal, why do jolt host planetarion in the uk?

if hosting is cheaper elsewhere, and jolt want pa to be a success, surely it would make sense for them to host it elsewhere?

-mist
The simple one is "internal recharge".

They make money off the hosting and I believe that jolt set up a new limited company so as to limit Jolts own exposure. If that is the case they can charge what they want and make cash off a loss making company.

Simple really isnt it ;o
__________________
No one significant ;o)
Former FAnG HC
Former JoV daddy
Former legion th0ng master
Proud to be Independent
Rumad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 15:42   #64
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
kal, why do jolt host planetarion in the uk?

if hosting is cheaper elsewhere, and jolt want pa to be a success, surely it would make sense for them to host it elsewhere?

-mist

look at all theese questions people could have been submitted to forest to ask jolt! will try to find out for you though - bit hard atm i am supposedly at work..
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:18   #65
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Physical server access, perhaps.
I follow you on that one 100%. BUT, what would be the problem of finding a location where you have a person you trust (which isnt that hard to be honest), and host from there?

Example:

Person x lives in Norway.
Where I (Jolt) host my servers, a 10 Mbit pipe costs £200 a month (wild guess).
Where person x lives, a 10 Mbit pipe costs £30 (pretty acurate).
I (Jolt) trust person x!
I (Person x) is willing to maintain servers for free/a small fee/whatever
I (Jolt) save £2040 a year from hosting my servers at person x.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakey
Also he mentions that he belives it could be run on a 1mbit pipe. Now I cant recall what the pipe was that was used in r1 but I do seem to recall it was bigger than that and for most of that roudn teh figures WERENT larger than they are now.
From what I remember the server(s?) ran out of Fudges bedroom hooked up to a 512k pipe. I also seem to remember that there was A LOT more users, at least in R2, than there was now. Please note that my memory is not the best in the world and this is a long time ago. As for the current 5 servers - someone should be shot. R3 had 180k users, whereas a significant amount was used (even though a lot of them were multi accounts, a lot of the multies did use their accounts) and the server hardware was not even close to what is available today. Having seen the server spinner brings to speedgames @ TG, and speedgames are very nice stresstests, there is no doubt in my mind that running 5 "überservers" is just plain silly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
technically speaking we do have a free account and a premium account system
The concept discussed by me and BlackNova was not having a limited/crippled account for free and a full account as p2p, which is the current system. The concept we had in mind was having a free account which does not cripple your account in anyway, so it is technically speaking possible to win a round with a free account.

Rather than having the current system, what we discussed was having additional features which spark the interest of users, which they would then pay for. Myself, I should never be allowed to have a creditcard cos I pay for everything that looks interesting, and I know there is a lot of people like me. Addon features are allready implemented in games like Hattrick ( dot org ) and a lot of people use them which generates a lot of income for the Hattrick owners.

In planetarion you could implement features such as sms alerts (Your construction/research is finished), sms reminders (alarm clock?), Ship images, construction images, ingame statistics (which would have to be stuff not possible to generate through the bot files), and the list goes on. For those who dont understand what I am talking about/dont think this would be populare or even possible, I suggest reading the part of the hattrick manual which explains the "supporter" feature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakey
As ive said before I dont think you can seriously run this game on google ads, your putting its whole existance in the hands of a 3rd party by doing this.
I think what BlackNova meant was to SEARCH google for methods of generating ad revenue, not use google itself. I would suggest using companies such as DoubleClick or TradeDouble (the latter I have successfuly used myself), and implement different levels of banners.

Example:

Lvl 1: Pay £5 a month, have no banners
Lvl 2: Pay £3 a month, display one banner for 5 minutes every hour
Lvl 3: Pay £1 a month display a banner all the time
Lvl 4: Pay nothing, have one popup every hour

Ofcourse this is all just ideas popped out of my head without being seriously thought through, and it would have to be refined a lot etc. But my idea was to show the concept. So say 1000 users pay £5 a month, thats £5,000 a month or £15,000 a round. A lot of money.


That concludes my longest post ever, I hope it wasnt all rubish.

-TheRat

[Edit: Edited for layout]
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:34   #66
Leshy
Mr. Blobby
 
Leshy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
The worst that happens if the pipe isn't big enough is that the game pages and accesses will slow down somewhat, which will generally only happen if you get a few hundred users all trying to log in at once, which given the nature of the game isn't exactly likely.
Actually, you couldn't be further off the mark here.

One of the major issues with Planetarion's bandwidth in the past has never been it's ability to handle a large amount of users, but the ability to handle them all at once. People will want to send and pull fleets just before the tick, check combat reports and scan right after ticks. The server will get hammered by page requests and logins from hundreds if not thousands of users all at once around the tick - such is the nature of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
I follow you on that one 100%. BUT, what would be the problem of finding a location where you have a person you trust (which isnt that hard to be honest), and host from there?
That's just a silly statement.

Jolt is a company. Companies generally don't let their business run through people they happen to trust. Would you be happy if your bank stored your money with some random unaffiliated person, who they claim to trust? Hosting abroad would mean Jolt would need to close a contract with a foreign hosting service, and possibly even having an employee on-site.
You can hardly offer gameservers, only to tell your customers "We're waiting for some guy to get back from the annual penguin-hunt so he can reboot the server" when the thing goes down.

If physical server access is a requirement, then hosting abroad is pretty much a no-no for Jolt, and even if it isn't, I presume Jolt would rather do business with a local company that they have easy access to, than some remote Scandinavian service.
__________________
http://www.leshy.net
Leshy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:35   #67
mist
Jolt's best friend
 
mist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
mist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to all
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
The simple one is "internal recharge".

They make money off the hosting and I believe that jolt set up a new limited company so as to limit Jolts own exposure. If that is the case they can charge what they want and make cash off a loss making company.

Simple really isnt it ;o
i thought something similar, however jolt have repeatedly said they don't want to make money out of pa, just have it break even - so this seems unlikely

-mist
__________________
<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:40   #68
Rumad
th0ng gimp
 
Rumad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
Rumad has a spectacular aura aboutRumad has a spectacular aura about
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Also he mentions that he belives it could be run on a 1mbit pipe. Now I cant recall what the pipe was that was used in r1 but I do seem to recall it was bigger than that and for most of that roudn teh figures WERENT larger than they are now. However the game would regularry trip up, sometimes it was too many requests for the webserver to handle, sometimes too many request for the db server to handle but at peak times it was also the fact the pipe couldnt handle the amount of traffic Now by using a pipe that isnt large enough to cover the peak loads and have some spare capcity your asking for trouble, its like your ISP saying ok for the hours midnight to 8pm the usage doesnt go above 20% of our capacity, so lets cut it back our bandwith to save money even though during the hours 8pm to midnight the load is such that it struggles to cope. How unhappy would you be if you couldnt login to scan and pull your ships and they were all destroyed because they had cut corners.
It oculd easily run on a 1 mb pipe - its called client based sofware.

The actual menu and brwser set up means that each time the page is refreshed a new page needs consructing with the new values. Continually pinging the servers causes the responses to stiffle the load.

Vegeta or yrile (ex legion player and also ex infrogames techie) designed a client based system which just meant the server was in fact the central database. This lowered the amount of calculation and server loading).

all it requires is a bit of lateral thinking and solutions to bandwidth can be found.
__________________
No one significant ;o)
Former FAnG HC
Former JoV daddy
Former legion th0ng master
Proud to be Independent
Rumad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:40   #69
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Jolt is a company. Companies generally don't let their business run through people they happen to trust. Would you be happy if your bank stored your money with some random unaffiliated person, who they claim to trust? Hosting abroad would mean Jolt would need to close a contract with a foreign hosting service, and possibly even having an employee on-site.
You can hardly offer gameservers, only to tell your customers "We're waiting for some guy to get back from the annual penguin-hunt so he can reboot the server" when the thing goes down.

If physical server access is a requirement, then hosting abroad is pretty much a no-no for Jolt, and even if it isn't, I presume Jolt would rather do business with a local company that they have easy access to, than some remote Scandinavian service.
Well, it doesnt have to be a a private persons, we do have hosting companies in Scandinavia aswell, which do offer dedicated servers. And these server houses do offer 24/7 support with technicians having physical access. Now this would ofcourse mean added costs from the servers they would have to rent, but then again the "überservers" would be freed up and ready to generate new income.

It seems to me that some people (not you in general) are just looking for excuses to make it harded instead of spending that time looking for solutions.

-TheRat
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:44   #70
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
It oculd easily run on a 1 mb pipe - its called client based sofware.

The actual menu and brwser set up means that each time the page is refreshed a new page needs consructing with the new values. Continually pinging the servers causes the responses to stiffle the load.

Vegeta or yrile (ex legion player and also ex infrogames techie) designed a client based system which just meant the server was in fact the central database. This lowered the amount of calculation and server loading).

all it requires is a bit of lateral thinking and solutions to bandwidth can be found.

All it requires actually is to turn the server side into an xml based webservice where all data is returned in xml format, having a clientside software (which could be constructed in the browser using some smart js) fetch the xml data. This saves the pipe of the load generated by scripts/html/grafical elements, and it also saves the server from rending cpu time.

-TheRat
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:46   #71
Mit
Let battle commence
 
Mit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
Mit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the rough
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
kal, why do jolt host planetarion in the uk?

if hosting is cheaper elsewhere, and jolt want pa to be a success, surely it would make sense for them to host it elsewhere?

-mist
Simple...

tim@tim tim $ tracepath www.jolt.co.uk

2: lon1-9.nildram.net (213.208.106.194) 64.896ms
3: jolt-gw.nildram.net (195.149.20.126) 64.891ms
4: clarity.jolt.co.uk (195.149.21.11) asymm 3 65.919ms reached

Jolt has deal with major ISP, discounted hosting anyone?

(and no i do not know this for definate... just guessing)
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide

<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer I knew u were
Mit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:48   #72
mist
Jolt's best friend
 
mist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
mist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to all
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

planetarion has repeatedly rejected client side software, so i doubt you'll have much in the way of luck there.

if they need physical access to servers, why not host it somewhere near spinner. it worked before, he's an employee, presumably a trusted one, and norway type area is where people're suggesting hosting anyway

-mist
__________________
<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:48   #73
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Interesting point Mit.. VERY interesting...
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:48   #74
Rumad
th0ng gimp
 
Rumad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
Rumad has a spectacular aura aboutRumad has a spectacular aura about
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i thought something similar, however jolt have repeatedly said they don't want to make money out of pa, just have it break even - so this seems unlikely

-mist
They want the company that bought PA to break even. Jolt I am sure will be making money off infrastructure provision even if its only marginal.

The other way of doing it is to charge what it costs but again it takes up more bandwidth on your current business infrastructure at cost raising your profit (cost would be there anyway so using at cost means you have more profitability, but a reduced margins)..

Even if its making nil profit for jolt its gives them less dead time and thus more profitability (low profit use is still better than no use).

/me turns off and goes back to preparing next years budget
__________________
No one significant ;o)
Former FAnG HC
Former JoV daddy
Former legion th0ng master
Proud to be Independent

Last edited by Rumad; 2 Aug 2004 at 16:58.
Rumad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:49   #75
NEWSBOT3
NEWSBOT
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The enby cave!
Posts: 4,872
NEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriendNEWSBOT3 needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

hello tim.
__________________
[20:27:47] <nodrog-aawy> **** i think my housemate just caught me masturbating
[11:25:32] <idimmu> you are a little piggy arent you
[13:17:00] <KaneED> i'm so closet i'm like narnia
__________________
Pretty parks and funky scrap metal things here
NEWSBOT3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:53   #76
Forest
Don't make me declare war
 
Forest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
Forest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet societyForest is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i thought something similar, however jolt have repeatedly said they don't want to make money out of pa, just have it break even - so this seems unlikely

-mist

It now appears that when they say break even, what they mean, is make the same profit as one of there clan servers does.

ATM it makes a profit but as it doesnt make as much as clan servers, they see this is a loss.

Its all a matter of wording :/
Forest is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:54   #77
mist
Jolt's best friend
 
mist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
mist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to allmist is a name known to all
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
Simple...

tim@tim tim $ tracepath www.jolt.co.uk

2: lon1-9.nildram.net (213.208.106.194) 64.896ms
3: jolt-gw.nildram.net (195.149.20.126) 64.891ms
4: clarity.jolt.co.uk (195.149.21.11) asymm 3 65.919ms reached

Jolt has deal with major ISP, discounted hosting anyone?

(and no i do not know this for definate... just guessing)
if they're getting cheap hosting, and they're not paying spinner much, then how do they justify their assertion that they're not making money?

being as kal's said that spinner's not getting much, this lead me to think their hosting must be fairly expensive. anyway, as jolt charge pa the opertinity cost, rather than the actual hosting cost, the hosting costs seem irrelevant

-mist
__________________
<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:55   #78
Mit
Let battle commence
 
Mit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
Mit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the rough
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

I could also say i used to run my toolkit from a UK ADSL Line (512k down, 256k up) - i know its not quite the same as the game itself, but it was well used (and i know that machine hosted a 'simple' game for someone else (not PA clone or anything... but was def used by quite a few)

The only times the conneciton (server) was 'down' was when it was being DDoS'd, i had enough access to see what was going on, and could always contact it using other methods when the 'webserver' was taken out. But, the only time i can remember it going down was when it was globalled on IRC (expected really), it did still feed all pages i requested, just slow for about 10 mins while everyone had a look.... point behind the message, yes, a slower connection would work, but there would be the 'first tick' and '8th tick' type real bottlenecks, plus would be slightly easier for those who wanted to 'harm' the game to do so during vital ticks.
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide

<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer I knew u were
Mit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:57   #79
Leshy
Mr. Blobby
 
Leshy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
The actual menu and brwser set up means that each time the page is refreshed a new page needs consructing with the new values.
Frankly, better HTML coding can bring the size of the pages down considerably as well already.

I wouldn't go for a client-based setup; PA's attraction is that you can log in from anywhere. If you had to install a client, you'd run into trouble on handheld devices, school and business networks, et cetera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
Well, it doesnt have to be a a private persons, we do have hosting companies in Scandinavia aswell, which do offer dedicated servers.
I understand. But that would mean Jolt would have to sign a contract with them, which is going to cost Jolt money as well; I don't know what the exact expenditure would be, but generally speaking, realiable commercial hosting is a good bit more expensive than your average private webhost. Especially if Jolt have non-standard wishes in regard to their servers, the software to run on it, et cetera, things could go up pretty quickly. And then you're still facing the problem that if things to tits up, you have no control whatsoever from the UK to Scandinavia. And what's more, Jolt would suddenly be having to deal with Norwegian Law instead of the UK one, which would cause more hassle.

Additionally, it is entirely possible that Jolt have an exclusive contract with whatever server hosting company they have now, which would exclude this possibility altogether - and frankly wouldn't surprise me.

This is not some way of trying to be negative - there are simply downsides to solutions that people seem to be overlooking very easily, or coming up with solutions that, while they might work for an individual owning Planetarion, would not work for an established company.
__________________
http://www.leshy.net
Leshy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 16:59   #80
Leshy
Mr. Blobby
 
Leshy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
he's an employee
Spinner is not a Jolt employee.

He's a part-time outside advisor.
__________________
http://www.leshy.net
Leshy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:00   #81
Mit
Let battle commence
 
Mit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
Mit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the rough
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
All it requires actually is to turn the server side into an xml based webservice where all data is returned in xml format, having a clientside software (which could be constructed in the browser using some smart js) fetch the xml data. This saves the pipe of the load generated by scripts/html/grafical elements, and it also saves the server from rending cpu time.

-TheRat
When i started re-coding for rnd 11 using PHP, one of hte requirements was to keep compatibility with OLD browsers (Netscape 4.x) - i did get moaned at for the first passport (that horrible green and brown thing) cos it wasn't quite NS4 compat (the top bar looked a bit iffy)

Would take out the XML as i'm sure it wasn't around back then, certainly took out the CSS and XHTML I started to use.
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide

<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer I knew u were
Mit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:01   #82
Blacknova
Zhil's Monkeyboy
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
Blacknova is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Actually, you couldn't be further off the mark here.

One of the major issues with Planetarion's bandwidth in the past has never been it's ability to handle a large amount of users, but the ability to handle them all at once. People will want to send and pull fleets just before the tick, check combat reports and scan right after ticks. The server will get hammered by page requests and logins from hundreds if not thousands of users all at once around the tick - such is the nature of the game..
That's the server hardware getting nailed, the bandwidth itself is just that... a path from A to B, if it's too heavily congested it slows down, if it gets MASSIVELY overused it will start timing packets out. Even so lets assume 1/5th of the current userbase is actively accessing it at one time (some 800 people) which is a little bit optimistic, you're unlikely to see more than 10% of that in a given minute... and probably less than 5% of that 10% in a given second... or lets look at it another way, an average of 800 users x 5 page views per hour as a rough average. 4000 pages an hour, each of which is what? 20kb? 30kb?

As was already pointed out, the servers weren't as sophisticated in R2, nor was the bandwidth as ample, and yet PA coped remarkably well

Nova
__________________
Chemical Brothers - Loops of [1up] - Music to MO to...
Blacknova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:04   #83
Leshy
Mr. Blobby
 
Leshy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
But, the only time i can remember it going down was when it was globalled on IRC (expected really), it did still feed all pages i requested, just slow for about 10 mins while everyone had a look.....
So as soon as a few people had a look, it already went to a state of not being usable? Come on, how many people react on a Netgamers IRC global, considering not the entire game is on IRC, half of them already know about the toolkit and don't care, and a quarter of them is AFK and doesn't notice the global?

I'd guess the amount of users that slugged the toolkit down after an announcement isn't near what Planetarion would draw around tick times.
__________________
http://www.leshy.net
Leshy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:11   #84
Leshy
Mr. Blobby
 
Leshy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
Even so lets assume 1/5th of the current userbase is actively accessing it at one time (some 800 people)
If you were to host Planetarion and offer it for free, then you'd be wiser to anticipate a larger userbase than the current one. Especially considering people tend to put in multiple page requests - clicking several times if the page won't load, trying to access multiple pages at once, et cetera.

PA has seen it in the past - pages would be lightning fast up until 5 minutes before the tick, at which point the game just died, only clearing up about 10 minutes after the tick. You can't average out all the page requests over an hour, considering you'll have a short, but heavy peak around the tick in which the number of page requests will rise dramatically.

Whatever you host PA on, it needs to be able to cope with 1000+ users putting in page requests within the space of one or two minutes, especially if you expect the playerbase to grow, with free accounts.
Quote:
As was already pointed out, the servers weren't as sophisticated in R2, nor was the bandwidth as ample, and yet PA coped remarkably well
So remarkably well that pretty much everyone remembers the Burp! page
__________________
http://www.leshy.net
Leshy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:15   #85
Rumad
th0ng gimp
 
Rumad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
Rumad has a spectacular aura aboutRumad has a spectacular aura about
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Frankly, better HTML coding can bring the size of the pages down considerably as well already.

I wouldn't go for a client-based setup; PA's attraction is that you can log in from anywhere. If you had to install a client, you'd run into trouble on handheld devices, school and business networks, et cetera.
Not necessarily. Most people could download a client which linked using ame technloy as webpages, but just transmitted numbers. It would lower the bandwidh required and the load on the servers / infrastructure.

I don't necessary believe client software is the solution, but there are many things that can be done with lateral thinking which would lower server load
__________________
No one significant ;o)
Former FAnG HC
Former JoV daddy
Former legion th0ng master
Proud to be Independent
Rumad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:18   #86
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

XHTML is designed to be compatible with everything, and is a very strict "version" (or extension) to HTML. As such, anything you write in HTML can be written in XHTML, and anything you write in XHTML should work in a browser designed for HTML. The CSS is a whole different matter ofcourse.

What on earth makes you say that NS4 compliance rules out XML? If rendering is going to be serverside, its just a matter of having one server responsible for putting the data togeather, where it (internaly on a closed network) requests the data through a web service handing it the xml and then format it to fit the type of device making the request. This would in effect make it possible to code views (which is the visible part of an application) to suit any given device without changing the business logic behind it.

Example:

* Ah, I see this is a modern browser, so I use a grafical/advanced view.
* Oh, this is a handheld with a browser, I apply a view designed for very small screens.
* This is a cellphone, I apply a wml view

And the list goes on.

This would also make it very easy for Jolt to design ingame bot planets, so increase the amount of planets without needing new players (Hattrick does this). The bot is given internal access to the webserver, thus only having to parse the xml.

Just ideas ofcourse, but the current solutions doesnt seem to be thought through very well.

-TheRat
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:21   #87
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
So remarkably well that pretty much everyone remembers the Burp! page
It shall also be mentioned that PA would prolly recieve a world record for bad coding if such a record existed. I have been coding tickers/battle engined myself, and simulating stress tests on them. And I have no clue whatsoever how on earth they managed to make the ticker spend 6 hours completing a tick

-TheRat
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:21   #88
Leshy
Mr. Blobby
 
Leshy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Leshy has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
Not necessarily. Most people could download a client
As I said, there are many instances of where people are not able to download a client
__________________
http://www.leshy.net
Leshy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:21   #89
Mit
Let battle commence
 
Mit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
Mit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the rough
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

-if- rendering was gonna be server side... forgot that option
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide

<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer I knew u were
Mit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:24   #90
Mit
Let battle commence
 
Mit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
Mit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the rough
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
It shall also be mentioned that PA would prolly recieve a world record for bad coding if such a record existed. I have been coding tickers/battle engined myself, and simulating stress tests on them. And I have no clue whatsoever how on earth they managed to make the ticker spend 6 hours completing a tick

-TheRat
Bad SQL, un-normalised or missing an index (i did it with the toolkit before now when i was still learning - missed putting an index on the planets table 'oops')

What happened in old PA when you changed you planet name and then looked into 'politics' as it was then - your old name was still on all the posts.
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide

<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer I knew u were
Mit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:25   #91
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
-if- rendering was gonna be server side... forgot that option

__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:37   #92
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

[17:32] <Kal> anyway people want to know why jolt uses expensive UK hosting for pa
[17:34] <biffy> because Jolt is a UK company
[17:34] <biffy> hosting it outside the UK would probably lead to all sorts of issues
[17:34] <biffy> payments, maintenance
[17:35] <biffy> say we host it in sweden
[17:35] <biffy> we have no swedish staff
[17:35] <biffy> so something goes wrong with the box
[17:35] <biffy> how do we fix it?
[17:38] <Kal> thats what i thought

there u go - makes sence really

there was a suggesiton somewhere that norway could be used and spinner could fix etc - but spinner is only part time remember so thats not a real option.
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:42   #93
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Well, there was another suggestion about using established hosting companies giving dedicated servers.. The extra cost of the servers would be earned up by the extra revenue generated by the freed up clan servers. Also the hosting company would have 24/7 technicians standing by, so that wasnt really a valid point.

-TheRat
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:43   #94
Blacknova
Zhil's Monkeyboy
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
Blacknova is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
[17:32] <Kal> anyway people want to know why jolt uses expensive UK hosting for pa
[17:34] <biffy> because Jolt is a UK company
[17:34] <biffy> hosting it outside the UK would probably lead to all sorts of issues
[17:34] <biffy> payments, maintenance
[17:35] <biffy> say we host it in sweden
[17:35] <biffy> we have no swedish staff
[17:35] <biffy> so something goes wrong with the box
[17:35] <biffy> how do we fix it?
[17:38] <Kal> thats what i thought

there u go - makes sence really

there was a suggesiton somewhere that norway could be used and spinner could fix etc - but spinner is only part time remember so thats not a real option.
*disclaimer, post is opinion only*

That and the fact Jolt is in itself an ISP, so Jolt can charge PA whatever it likes in bandwidth fees (as rumad pointed out)

Sounds like Jolt never heard of outsourcing either

Nova
__________________
Chemical Brothers - Loops of [1up] - Music to MO to...
Blacknova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:47   #95
Mit
Let battle commence
 
Mit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
Mit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the roughMit is a jewel in the rough
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
*disclaimer, post is opinion only*

That and the fact Jolt is in itself an ISP, so Jolt can charge PA whatever it likes in bandwidth fees (as rumad pointed out)

Sounds like Jolt never heard of outsourcing either

Nova
Jolt is not the ISP, Nildram is the ISP that holds the backbone to Jolt's hosting. (from my traceroute - and i'm not on Nildram before someone says something like that)
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide

<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer I knew u were
Mit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:55   #96
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
Well, there was another suggestion about using established hosting companies giving dedicated servers.. The extra cost of the servers would be earned up by the extra revenue generated by the freed up clan servers. Also the hosting company would have 24/7 technicians standing by, so that wasnt really a valid point.

-TheRat
[17:55] <biffy> technicians standing by yes, but technicians tend to be limited in what they do or charge huge amounts for doing an work above minimal stuff
[17:55] <biffy> to give you an idea we usually have people onsite for a day at least once a week
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 17:57   #97
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Shouldnt it be the hosting companies responsibility if the server goes boo-boo ? (Software can be done remotely, so it shouldbt be an issue)
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 18:14   #98
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

note where he said they charge huge amounts
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 18:16   #99
Blacknova
Zhil's Monkeyboy
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
Blacknova is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
Jolt is not the ISP, Nildram is the ISP that holds the backbone to Jolt's hosting. (from my traceroute - and i'm not on Nildram before someone says something like that)
I am on nildram... basically from what I understand Jolt / Nildram is the same company albeit two different halves. Nildram being the consumer and commercial side, and Jolt being the gamer side (the name coming from Jolt cola). For all intents and purposes I think Jolt is in itself it's own ISP, it's just that they use the same pipes as nildram.

Nova
__________________
Chemical Brothers - Loops of [1up] - Music to MO to...
Blacknova is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 Aug 2004, 18:18   #100
TheRat
Retired
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
TheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud ofTheRat has much to be proud of
Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.

Sorry I was a bit unclear on that one.

What I meant was that if a server you pay for goes boo-boo, it isnt your responsibility to fix it but the owner of the server. And as such you should not pay to get it fixed? That would be something like my electrical company charging me when they have to fix a broken device..

-TheRat
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most

-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
TheRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018