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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 01:37   #1
JTheGayC
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Give people something to do

or you will lose them
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 07:58   #2
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Re: Give people something to do

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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 10:19   #3
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Re: Give people something to do

Here on Portugal we have a rule that says:

Far from eyes ... far from the hart

Many people don’t come here because there is no game running, and ends to get in on other online game.
Hang them on PA … A free round of 2 or 3 weeks will give you more time to work on the R11.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 11:59   #4
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by k2ou3
Here on Portugal we have a rule that says:

Far from eyes ... far from the hart

Many people don?t come here because there is no game running, and ends to get in on other online game.
Hang them on PA ? A free round of 2 or 3 weeks will give you more time to work on the R11.
The english alternative would be 'Out of sight, out of mind'.

On the other hand, 'absence makes the heart grow fonder', so it's best not to rely on proverbs.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 12:19   #5
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Re: Give people something to do

fact remains, unless you give the community something to do over these months, until round 11 is coded or should that be IF its coded, they are gone, perhaps for good.

So please get if someone is listening, give your community something to do!
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 12:53   #6
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Re: Give people something to do

Yup, agreed on all counts. Why not run a PAX.5 or something (or even better, a round 10.5 and ditch PAX), but just something that fills the gap like r9.5 did. And of course, as usual, if you make it free, it is more likely to bring in new players (or do I need to term it as "It is more likely to bring in new paying customers" to make the point?).
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 13:09   #7
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Re: Give people something to do

I'd agree, something needs doing, we're doing all we can at the moment, but a small disagreement on the NDA front is proving a few problems.

Bashar, we cannot run an old style PA game, we're missing probably the most crutial bit, the database but a fill in rnd 10 might be an idea to consider.

At the moment, i cannot say a lot, other than we're waiting on jolt.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 13:11   #8
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Re: Give people something to do

speed round 8-) bring it on
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 13:30   #9
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
Bashar, we cannot run an old style PA game, we're missing probably the most crutial bit, the database but a fill in rnd 10 might be an idea to consider.
So I keep hearing, but I am slightly puzzeled by the relevance of this. If the database is all you are missing and you have the code, then surely you can create another?? Or am I missing a point somewhere?
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 13:43   #10
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Re: Give people something to do

You're missing the point on it I'm afraid.

- We have the compiled code for the pages and the ticker.
- We do NOT have the database.
- We do NOT have the source code.
- The debug DB errors in classic PA are next to non-existant, and it used Sybase rather than MySQL which is apparently a pain in the neck so we can't rebuild it from what we have.

Therefore, the only game we currently have the option to run is PA:X.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:01   #11
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Re: Give people something to do

Failing all else another round of R10 stats would give new alliances (such as mine) a chance to flex, and would give the player base as a whole something to do whilst waiting for those little progress bars on KaZaa.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:03   #12
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
You're missing the point on it I'm afraid.

- We have the compiled code for the pages and the ticker.
- We do NOT have the database.
- We do NOT have the source code.
- The debug DB errors in classic PA are next to non-existant, and it used Sybase rather than MySQL which is apparently a pain in the neck so we can't rebuild it from what we have.

Therefore, the only game we currently have the option to run is PA:X.
Well that was a stupid situation to let yourselves fall into wasn't it. I remember people specifically saying when PAX was being dreamt up "Will you keep the r9 code for future speedgames etc.?" and being told yes.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:05   #13
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Re: Give people something to do

I must agree on the fact that it would be in PA's best interest, to get something up and running as soon as possible. I have been contacted by Jolt to see if I can help with getting speedgames up fast.
So, it seems I will give it a go (:

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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:12   #14
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
I must agree on the fact that it would be in PA's best interest, to get something up and running as soon as possible. I have been contacted by Jolt to see if I can help with getting speedgames up fast.
So, it seems I will give it a go (:

"Oh no, he's back!"
Seems you can't stay away after all. I am puzzeled though why jolt felt they needed to come to you to ask for help sorting it. Does jolt have insufficient faith in the capabilities of the current PAteam to sort it themselves?
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:14   #15
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Re: Give people something to do

Well, it is obvisouly less work for me to modify PaX to Speedgame than it is for the team, after all I know the code first hand already.

Oh, and Bashar, don't sound too enthusiastic (:
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:14   #16
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Re: Give people something to do

Oh, and following on from my last thread, if they do have insufficient faith in the current PAteam, what is being done to address this problem? I doubt that you would be persuaded to come back on any such level without the situationd being dire Spinner (unless a break is what you needed of course).
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:14   #17
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Re: Give people something to do

Oh, and I CAN stay away, no problem. I was just asked to help, and I thought my help might be welcome.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:15   #18
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
Oh, and Bashar, don't sound too enthusiastic (:
I don't do enthusiasm during exam periods, especially when I am in the middle of an exam period whilst on anti-biotics as it means I can't go drown myself in beer after every exam
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:16   #19
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Re: Give people something to do

Jolt will have to answer your question, I am afraid, but I think pretty much everything now depends on the resolution to the current NDA situation. Of that I have no part, I am just here to help with the speedgames.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:16   #20
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
Oh, and I CAN stay away, no problem. I was just asked to help, and I thought my help might be welcome.
I think welcome doesn't quite cover it. You are most deffinitely welcome I reckon, but also needed I think. I am not too surprised to hear you have been asked to help, and I hope it goes well.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:17   #21
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
Oh, and I CAN stay away, no problem. I was just asked to help, and I thought my help might be welcome.
It's definatley welcome, as the person who wrote the code in the first place is the most likely to be able to do a good job on sorting out the glitches, and adding the things required for speedgames, such as the ability to put Private galaxies in.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:18   #22
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Re: Give people something to do

Nice to see you Spinner. :-) I hope you bring with you some pursuasive power on the Jolt and their silly NDA front. You always could sort things out, my fingers are crossed that you'll work your magic on this one too.

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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:20   #23
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
It's definatley welcome, as the person who wrote the code in the first place is the most likely to be able to do a good job on sorting out the glitches, and adding the things required for speedgames, such as the ability to put Private galaxies in.
PERSONALLY, I would have made sure Mit was going to sort it myself for one simple reason, it would have helped aquaint him with the PAX code properly, and he's going to need to be aquainted with how it works if he is going to integrate bits into a new round. Though that is just my feelings. I would then have asked Spinner to do an advisory role with Mit, that would be the best option I think.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:22   #24
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Re: Give people something to do

how did the PATeam manage to lose an entire game? :|
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:22   #25
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Re: Give people something to do

R11 is a recode, not a bodge together of PA:X and r9 code. Part of the reason why it's being recoded is that PA:X is written in Perl, and that is not Mit's strong point when it comes to coding.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:24   #26
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Re: Give people something to do

and you managed to lose r1-9 database because .. ??
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:25   #27
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
R11 is a recode, not a bodge together of PA:X and r9 code. Part of the reason why it's being recoded is that PA:X is written in Perl, and that is not Mit's strong point when it comes to coding.
I didn't say it was a botch job, I said he needs to know how it works, which he does. And also, perl is not that different from other languages, it has a lot of similarities to PHP, java and the C series of code. You can work with perl if you know any of those with minimal extra thought and learning.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:27   #28
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Re: Give people something to do

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Originally Posted by Veil05
and you managed to lose r1-9 database because .. ??
I would guess a combination of moving servers (or more, needing new ones when old ones were switched off), a lack of backups, deleting what backups there are, new staff and I am sure we could throw human error in there too somewhere.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:27   #29
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Re: Give people something to do

The servers at Jolt were reformatted. Which lost the version Jolt had. Don't even begin to ask about Jolt backing up stuff.

There were also two versions for ievents here in the UK. Unfortunately both Mit and my versions are unavailable. Mits via corruption of the DB and mine due to the harddrive dieing on me.

It appears that round 1-9.5 was just -meant- to leave this planet.

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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 14:29   #30
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Re: Give people something to do

well if speed games is PA:X u should release all the formulea's because, Mit is coding it again, so i dont see the problem
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 15:11   #31
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Re: Give people something to do

what is NDA? :/
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 15:18   #32
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Re: Give people something to do

Yay, Spinner is back!

/me fires up the spellchecker... :-)
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 15:18   #33
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Re: Give people something to do

I assume the formula everyone wants is the one regarding disturbance factor of the ships in combat?
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 15:18   #34
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Re: Give people something to do

NDA - National Dance AssociationThe National Disability Authority
Network Design Architects

NDA National Dart Association

The cult of the NDA


You pick

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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 15:23   #35
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Re: Give people something to do

NDA = Non Disclosure Agreement

In other words Jolt saying "You aren't allowed to tell people anything we don't want you to, and if you do, we reserve the right to use you as our personal sex toy"

Something like that
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 15:26   #36
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Re: Give people something to do

That was the last link
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 16:20   #37
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Re: Give people something to do

Sheesh, the fuss : eek :

Cant you just reset the current PAX that is up but stopped, set a date a week ahead, and start ticks 4 days after that? It wouldn't be very 'serious' anyway, just something to do.. speedrounds alone wont cover the hole while awaiting r11. Infact, re-starting a short PAX would probably only bring more interest once speedrounds come alive.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 16:23   #38
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Re: Give people something to do

Maybe we could have couple of speed rounds, followed by 10.5 free round while we await round 11 ( which I hope is called the name I chose:P )
We need to keep people busy else they will find real life.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 16:59   #39
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Re: Give people something to do

Welcome back spinner. You promised us (Rucphen dude's) a speedround back there. So let's roll. We already had a meeting with PA-Team about do able changes. I think we all(All is those who want speedround) could give you some input about good changes etc.

So... Set a date, start coding and good luck!
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 17:08   #40
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Re: Give people something to do

Personally, I'm after every formula there is (see my suggestions thread). Disturbance seems to equate reasonably well to 22% of ships dying, so I'm not too bothered about that one. My main problem is with the structure/factory damage system. I decided mid round to try and take down a top 10 player who paid a few too many visits to my planet, so I concentrated on factories, using the specialst ships, which resulted in me wasting a large portion of my value for almost no effect, seemingly due to bugs.

In havoc I was able to send large numbers of ships at various inactive targets to try and work out what was actually going on. It seems that the (supposedly structure specialist) Varanus is significantly worse at structure/factory destruction than the Nasicus, possibly because the 20% of a Varanus fleet that is 'mixed' in priority does not steal roids.

I sent equal sized fleets of Nasicus at identical inactive targets, one set to factories/factories and one set to structures/structures. Both killed about the same proportion of factores as structures, but the structures one killed a larger number of each.

If I had the formulas, I could confirmed the problem much earlier, and would have reported this as a bug quite early on in the round, meaning the end of the round would have been better for all of us, with the big planets being in constant danger of debilitating anti-factory suicide runs and therefore seeing a lot more action. As it turned out, losing factories wasn't the interesting factor that it might have been if the promised 'all ships fire' could properly combine with working factory targetting.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 17:29   #41
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Re: Give people something to do

have to be honest here at the risk of getting flamed to death

round 10 was called to an end (quite rightly IMHO) regardless of wether it was crap or brill, it had reached the end of that rounds lifecycle

we then had a havok which arguably wasnt that much fun (bug exploits and coop all the inactives 3 bil res) or times so that anyone bothered much (over the xmas hols) most players simply went into semi active mode for the speedround promissed immediately following havock

after over a month what we can see is a long time with no apparent light at the end of the tunnel

given that the remaining playerbase is the hard core most wont wait so long this can be seen by the number of people / alliances going to games like the PLA one or eve ect in a big way.

what has kept those people till now in PA is mainly the community / alliance stuff so as people move over and see the grass on the other side is growing as opposed to appearing greener, the interest in PA wanes. (Fact an increasing number of people i talk to in the abovementioned games have less than zero intention of comming back)

whats actually needed is some free action eg:- and old round or round 10 with some ammendments and it needs to be running now . this could be a stage between normal and full on speed round which may actually entice people to pay for such a beast.

what we actually are getting is good intentions and very frank reasons why it isnt happening and the classic "its someone elses fault" stuff , but zero is announced on the delivery front which, in all honestly is all most people actually care about ( example i wouldnt wait in pizza hut for 2 months for a deep pan because they have no cheese Id be at dominics saying "wasnt it a shame pizza hut closed" in between courses)

so simply ( and hopefully without anyone taking it personal)

for every day nothing appears to happen, more and more people will trickle...then flood to other ventures. Its now getting to the point (and some alliance leaders might even say that its well past this point already) where any remaining alliance worth its salt will be making hard decisions on where its efforts are going to be pushed in the future to serve its members best.

regards all

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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 17:29   #42
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Thunderball
So... Set a date, start coding and good luck!
Didn't he delegate that task to Terror?
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 18:00   #43
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Re: Give people something to do

Surely Spinner/Fudge (maybe even Vish) have copies of the source code for PA Classic? Rebuilding the database from just the binaries would indeed be difficult, but with source code... not exactly the toughest challenge in the world, given how many people would return to play (and pay for) a round 9 style speedround. If Jolt are refusing PATeam access to the PA Classic code, then maybe this is something Spinner can hook us up with? Welcome back btw Spinner... how's the new job? Pays well but not as satisfying as PA I'll bet


Regarding recoding PA "because Mit doesn't know Perl", that's tbh a load of crap. As is the statement that PA is "stepping into the modern internet" by being coded in PHP (there's nothing remotely 'unmodern' about Perl despite it being a couple of years older than PHP). Anyone can see a recode of PA will be as buggy as ever (this is simply a fact with almost all code). We put up with bugs in PAX knowing that things would improve as the codebase matured gradually. Remember even 9 rounds of PA Classic weren't enough to squash all the bugs in that. Aside from a new PA being buggy it will takes *ages* to code. Fudge and Spinner (and the various design assistants) took the best part of 2 rounds to code PAX while being paid (sort of) fulltime for it, now Mit is hoping to repeat the process during 1 maybe 2 speedrounds.... (did I hear somewhere the end of February was a possible signup date?) as a volunteer.

Quite simply it's ludicrous to recode the whole thing when there's a perfectly good, working codebase already in place. Yes the combat system is flawed and some elements of PA Classic need to come back, but why start from scratch?

Furthermore, while I'm not going to question Mit's coding ability (I know nothing of it, but there are certainly some who are critical of it), I would like to point out how almost non-existant the PA Toolkit was this last round and I've seen nothing to indicate Mit has regained the vast amount of dedication it'll require to code PA from scratch. On the other hand any amount of effort from 'some' to 's**t loads' would be great if he were just hacking the exisiting code.

I can only see two sensible options:

a) Mit learns Perl - It's not like it's that hard for a competent programmer to learn a new language, particularly when they're only required to modify existing code not start from scratch, and Perl isn't exactly a worthless skill to have lying around. Furthermore:
Quote:
[21:32:40] <Mit|Coding> i know -some- perl
b) Find someone who does know Perl - There's plenty about who I'm sure would be happy to help.

Sorry for the negativity, there's surely enough about at the moment, but I just can't make myself feel optimistic for PA's future when I hear it's being recoded again. (Insert some fiting quote about 80% of software projects being over budget, under specified or delivered late, and the other 20% being cancelled entirely).
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 18:14   #44
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
R11 is a recode, not a bodge together of PA:X and r9 code. Part of the reason why it's being recoded is that PA:X is written in Perl, and that is not Mit's strong point when it comes to coding.
Surely when appointing people to head the programming of the game, you choose people who can code in the same language, and thereby save an absolutely enormous amount of time?

At least that would have been the case had not Mit been (apparantly) self appointed.

Ho hum.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 19:42   #45
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Re: Give people something to do

ffs gime something to do all this time spent with wifey and kids is killin me
restart ticks for havoc or something

for anyone wondering the real meaning of NDA
NDA = No Dreadnoughts Allowed
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 20:14   #46
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Re: Give people something to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
all this time spent with wifey and kids is killin me
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 20:21   #47
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Re: Give people something to do

Well, if all else fails, there is at least one stable open source speedgame 'old-style PA' clone in PHP out there on the intarweb that could be pressed into 'official' service
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 03:31   #48
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Re: Give people something to do

so what exactly is the problem with the NDA?
Or aren't you allowed to say?
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 03:46   #49
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Re: Give people something to do

Love the way noone can accept the blame.

1. Spinner, surely you have the old source code? And if not, how long would it take to recode, with the help of PA Team (which otherwise are doing nothing, except fannying around with an alliance thing which noone really uses anyway)? 2 weeks?
2. If this NDA is the only thing in the way, surely it'd be a good idea to phone up Jolt, push it along, get them to whack it in the post. I know it's very nice having the "POWAH" and not having to do anything because you have an excuse, but you'll lose it quicksmart if you keep bollocking around.
3. Mark made a good point about Mit not knowing Perl. Again, stop messing around with useless addons like the alliance stuff, and get the IMPORTANT stuff sorted.

Welcome back Spinner, try to avoid the pessimism on the way in.
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 11:19   #50
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Re: Give people something to do

1) as we KEEP saying, between all of us, the old game has unfortunately been lost....
2) An NDA has been agreed and signed and sent back to jolt, however things have changed from Jolt's side and they have proposed a new agreement, i can't say anymore than that.
3) I have said i do know -some- perl, but having no access to the code (see #2) i can't do anything about that... The main point to not using Perl for rnd 11 was PHP was a more commonly known language in the team and thus more people could help.
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