A little story

[mastah]

Well done!

Cheating ain't right however it has become a strategy or so to say..people want to be the best "at all cost" ..So some cheat
unfortunately some don't get caught and they keep at it to ruin someone else her/his hard work they have put into their PA account which they have done without cheating..

I hope more people do the same thing like you, not neccasarily by pm logging, but just by reporting cheaters with good evidence!

Cheating is for loosers..

[Piktuolis]

Originally posted by Kileman
But thumbs up to XtotheZ for reporting cheaters who were friends... its something that can be hard to do... but its the 'right' thing to do, and can get a lot of people to hate u. But its just a game.

Correct, PA is still is a game but friends which we meet here often become real friends. Maybe I'd also betray them for "greater good" but for sure not for some bloody game.
Of course everyone has his own priorities and is free to choose...

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by xtothez
Meddy, Nacho and wishmaster were all closed after their logins were found on ouzo irc.

This may be unrelated, but is wishmaster the former 'Aequitas' from Legion Round 4 (and prior)? If anyone can confirm or deny this, I'd personally appreciate it.

xtothez, while the thought of personal conversations etc. being 'not personal' is unnerving, I see absolutely no fault in what methods you had to go to to confirm or deny your suspicions. Not because of what you eventually discovered, but simply because it's better than people who turn a blind eye, even to friends; something I can also admit to being guilty of.

That being said, I direct this part to those who claim 'injustice' for xtothez's logging 'personal' conversations: NOTHING ON THE INTERNET IS PRIVATE.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the only thing that is ever private is what you tell yourself; as soon as you speak, type, show, or otherwise communicate it to any other soul, it ceases to be "private."

It wasn't "nice" that xtothez turned his friends in, with evidence gathered by personal means, but guess what? It was more ****ed up that people would cheat and use xtothez (his abilities and services as well as friendship) just to get an edge in a stupid online game.

That is ****ed up. Abso****inglutely ****ed up.

It's not hard to see who has more integrity, under the unfortunate circumstances. I wish I had half as much courage as xtothez did.

[Fasie]

Excellent job xtothez !!!

And i was zuite surprised to read tht pm couldn't be logged easily, cause as Hobbierogue says, nothing s private on the net.

[Lanceman]

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
[...]

That being said, I direct this part to those who claim 'injustice' for xtothez's logging 'personal' conversations: NOTHING ON THE INTERNET IS PRIVATE.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the only thing that is ever private is what you tell yourself; as soon as you speak, type, show, or otherwise communicate it to any other soul, it ceases to be "private."

[...]

No.
Why do people slave themselves to generalize so fast on such important matters?
There is privacy.
In this case the things may be different as it was his own service and his own rules for using it but you can't say there isn't privacy on the net.
Some people WANT the total freedom of information which can help to understand the meaning of the world etc. but that doesn't mean it is real.
The problem in most cases is to distinguish between private and public information.

[Lerxst]

Very well done xtothez! The way you got this info is questionable ofc, but nonetheless it was necessary to do it that way. You showed courage. Which is seldom found nowadays in PA.

[Kileman]

Originally posted by Piktuolis
Correct, PA is still is a game but friends which we meet here often become real friends. Maybe I'd also betray them for "greater good" but for sure not for some bloody game.
Of course everyone has his own priorities and is free to choose...

I have never gone out of my way to catch cheaters in my own alliance, I leave that to those that are hostile to me/us. And I have never gone out of my way to report cheaters that will have a negative affect on my own planet (eg having gal mates closed etc). As for friends... well what they do in their own time is their business. And having them is friends is more important to me than some crusade against cheating.

But for me it all depends on the type of cheating. If it doesnt affect anyone, its not important. I dont really think account sharing/swapping is a big deal. It just makes people REAL lives easier and lets private gals continue to remain highly ranked etc when REAL life takes its toll... whereas I would have little problem reporting someone I knew was farming extensively/botting or multi'ing.

[xtothez]

Originally posted by booji
I dont like the idea of U saying the OuZo community in general is emtrenched in bitterness and hypocracy.

I meant the Planetarion community as a whole. See sig.

[Wishmaster]

I am not Aeq

[merle]

wether ppl cheat or not, noone has the right to read someones pms.
its not called private massege for nothing, it was a break of trust. i am disgusted.
-
privacy is privacy, even if you plan to kill the president ure not allowed to listen. shame on u xtothez, i never thought youd abuse our trust like this.

[Heartshunter]

Originally posted by merle
wether ppl cheat or not, noone has the right to read someones pms.
its not called private massege for nothing, it was a break of trust. i am disgusted.
-
privacy is privacy, even if you plan to kill the president ure not allowed to listen. shame on u xtothez, i never thought youd abuse our trust like this.

The cheaters also abused his trust, by using his facilities for (pa) "illigal" activities in the first place and thats even more disgusting. If you really want privacy, use another medium.

[Doorsdown]

I may not fully agree with ur methods for proving ur suspisions but irc is a public thing and most MOTD for them do say that the admins can do stuff like that and if u don't agree then disconnect. But i am glad to see that people still have a sence enough to turn in cheaters, friends or not.

[Empress]

Originally posted by merle
wether ppl cheat or not, noone has the right to read someones pms.
its not called private massege for nothing, it was a break of trust. i am disgusted.
-
privacy is privacy, even if you plan to kill the president ure not allowed to listen. shame on u xtothez, i never thought youd abuse our trust like this.

oh for the love of all things sane shut up.

ppl were cheating blantantly before he started logging the pm's as thats how he got suspicious in the first place..he just found a way to get proof. Thats not abusing your trust thats the ouzo/gto/anyone else that cheated abusing his trust and the community.

[Maddix]

Originally posted by merle
wether ppl cheat or not, noone has the right to read someones pms.
its not called private massege for nothing, it was a break of trust. i am disgusted.
-
privacy is privacy, even if you plan to kill the president ure not allowed to listen. shame on u xtothez, i never thought youd abuse our trust like this.

Are you still GTO merle?

[Epcylon]

There are a lot of people here who seems to have completely lost the plot.

Yes, legally he had the right to do whatever he wants with his ircnet. Yes, unless encrypted, all information on the internet can be read by a third party. Yes, catching cheaters is good.

None of this matters.

I'll break it down for those of you with shorter attention span.

Legally he can do whatever he wants with his ircnet. But as I have made a point of saying over and over again. The law is imperfect, and what he can legally do is not the same as what is right to do. If I can manage to get someones signature on a contract that gives me all their properties in exchange for a pat on the back, then in the eyes of the law I have done nothing wrong. I'm hoping most of you will agree that morally, I have.


Now, privacy. It is true that any information sent over the net is in theory open for anyone to read unless you encrypt it. But the technical ability to read information does not give you the right to read it. Your local postoffice can take a peek at your private mail, it's just a matter of opening the envelope. That doesn't mean they are allowed to.


As for the argument that this is ok since it's done for the greater good. By that logic we should all have implants that tell some central computer where we are, what we are doing and what we had for lunch last tuesday. Because, this would make it much easier to catch thieves, and that makes it ok, because it's done for the greater good. I hope you don't think that's a good idea.


Without checking the numbers, I'm guessing about 2-3% of the lines logged in this little excercise was actually about cheating. So you are violating the privacy of everyone in order to catch the 2-3% who are cheating. That would be like banning all asians from entering the country because some people from Singapore might have SARS.


Again, all honour to Xtothez for daring to report his friends, if more people would do that, then we wouldn't have had to resort to this in order to catch them.

I still think it was wrong to do this, but at the same time I guess the Planetarion community isn't able to take responsibility for it's own actions, so we probably had it coming.


And for those of you too thick to grasp this point, I'll say it as clearly as I can...

Blatant cheating should be reported. They are not your friends when they are ruining the game for you and everyone else, they are selfish and they are wrong. But you are also wrong if you use their tools, their tactics and their way of thinking in order to catch them.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Epcylon
But you are also wrong if you use their tools, their tactics and their way of thinking in order to catch them.

Beats not catching them at all.

In addition, you're ignoring the fact that XtotheZ has every right to know what's going on on his server, and whether or not illegal activities are being conducted through the service he supplies. The people sharing logins in PM's on OuZo-net are the ones who created the need for an investigation into their activities, and they are to blame.

[Aryn]

i like the house analogy.. can't remember who said it.

pretend the private server was say xtothez's house, and he was having a private party. now he has been tipped off that some people at teh party are drug dealers, but he doesn't believe it. so he goes room to room chatting with his friends, then realizes that these "drug dealers" are missing. he notices a closed door. now in our day and age a closed door means that the person(s) inside want privacy. but it's his house. is it wrong for him to listen to the convo inside to see if they're dealing drugs or not? and if they are.. wouldn't it be for the 'greater good' to call the cops on them?

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by Lanceman
No.
Why do people slave themselves to generalize so fast on such important matters?
There is privacy.
In this case the things may be different as it was his own service and his own rules for using it but you can't say there isn't privacy on the net.

No.
This is an issue of you not grasping a harsh reality of "the Internet" that being that each and everyone of us is a 'faceless user' of sorts who can create and maintain and falsify identies, characters in some cases, of whomever and whatever we want. The fact that you believe there exists privacy in a very unprivate 'world' of sorts is understandable, but extremely foolish as well. If you continue believing the Internet is "super secret and safe" with regards to privacy issues, all that you're doing is placing trust, unfounded or not, into the hands of others, complete strangers or so-called friends.

The only difference is that unlike in the real world, you can't reach out and strangle someone for saying something on "the Internet."

Unless they are in the seat next to you at a local Net Cafe, in which case I recommend crotch-kicking as well.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Aryn
i like the house analogy.. can't remember who said it.

pretend the private server was say xtothez's house, and he was having a private party. now he has been tipped off that some people at teh party are drug dealers, but he doesn't believe it. so he goes room to room chatting with his friends, then realizes that these "drug dealers" are missing. he notices a closed door. now in our day and age a closed door means that the person(s) inside want privacy. but it's his house. is it wrong for him to listen to the convo inside to see if they're dealing drugs or not? and if they are.. wouldn't it be for the 'greater good' to call the cops on them?

Nice analogy, but it doesn't fit. For it to fit, he would have to have had to tape all conversations at the party and listened to them afterwards to find the drug dealers.

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by Epcylon
Nice analogy, but it doesn't fit. For it to fit, he would have to have had to tape all conversations at the party and listened to them afterwards to find the drug dealers.

And if the guilty parties had been 'smart' they wouldn't have abused his trust in the first place and used something like, oh I don't know, MSN MESSENGER OR THE TELEPHONE TO EXCHANGE LOGIN INFO ETC.

Even in cheating, people aren't very smart.

[Gerbie]

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
And if the guilty parties had been 'smart' they wouldn't have abused his trust in the first place and used something like, oh I don't know, MSN MESSENGER OR THE TELEPHONE TO EXCHANGE LOGIN INFO ETC.

Even in cheating, people aren't very smart.

To stick with the analogy:

It's technically not impossible for Microsoft and the phone company to have a similar party.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
No.
This is an issue of you not grasping a harsh reality of "the Internet" that being that each and everyone of us is a 'faceless user' of sorts who can create and maintain and falsify identies, characters in some cases, of whomever and whatever we want. The fact that you believe there exists privacy in a very unprivate 'world' of sorts is understandable, but extremely foolish as well. If you continue believing the Internet is "super secret and safe" with regards to privacy issues, all that you're doing is placing trust, unfounded or not, into the hands of others, complete strangers or so-called friends.

It is true that the internet is a very open and unsafe environment, but that is just the current state of affairs. That does not mean it's meant to be like that. What I am trying to express here is not a belief that my conversations are hidden from prying eyes, but that it should be hidden. Given that premiss, I will do what I can in order to persuade others that even if you can look, you shouldn't.

You can not change the world if you don't ask for change. If you continue to accept the abysmal state of affairs, then you will not get an improvement. I am simply trying to say that if everyone had the decency to stop doing "bad things" just because they can, then maybe we could one day actually end up with an internet where you don't have to encrypt your private conversations.

I know what I'm asking for is Utopia, but that does not mean we shouldn't stribe to achieve it.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
And if the guilty parties had been 'smart' they wouldn't have abused his trust in the first place and used something like, oh I don't know, MSN MESSENGER OR THE TELEPHONE TO EXCHANGE LOGIN INFO ETC.

Even in cheating, people aren't very smart.

I fail to see how this relates to the moralities of his actions.

How can the fact that he might not have caught any cheaters at all defend his actions? I would think that was an argument against him doing this (oh wait, it is!).

[THE GREAT ONE]

Originally posted by Kileman
I have never gone out of my way to catch cheaters in my own alliance, I leave that to those that are hostile to me/us. And I have never gone out of my way to report cheaters that will have a negative affect on my own planet (eg having gal mates closed etc). As for friends... well what they do in their own time is their business. And having them is friends is more important to me than some crusade against cheating.

But for me it all depends on the type of cheating. If it doesnt affect anyone, its not important. I dont really think account sharing/swapping is a big deal. It just makes people REAL lives easier and lets private gals continue to remain highly ranked etc when REAL life takes its toll... whereas I would have little problem reporting someone I knew was farming extensively/botting or multi'ing.

When you climbed out your whole in the ground one day, did u just decide that sharing accounts don't effect other people..cos that's the stupidist thing ever said:P

e.g. u share an account use it to defend...guess what..the guy u defend against is affected..or the guy u attack with that account etc etc

when one gal remains highly ranked it usually means another gal/planet/alliance is dropping or not growing when it should, that is no better than any other type of cheating.

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Epcylon
Nice analogy, but it doesn't fit. For it to fit, he would have to have had to tape all conversations at the party and listened to them afterwards to find the drug dealers.

Again doesnt fit, as I didnt read all the logs. I just used software to process them (so its also possible that some people escaped by not being detected automatically).

[merle]

i think there is a affinity to privacy in the internet, ppl use firewalls, these conversations were held on a so called private server and so on. there is a need on privacy or people get mad, thats what ppl have to suffer from in prisons.
i dont say the net is private, everything can be hacked ect.
but does the fact something can be hacked include the invitation to do it?
to listen on other rooms doors in my eyes is a violation of peoples trust, it wouldve been something else if they shared their accounts in open channels because thats just stupidity.
thats not a point of possibilities, if someone wanted he could observe me all day. but its not allowed, its a break of privacy at least in my country.
i dont say i dont see that there is a need on getting cheaters somehow but would not it be easier to just compare the phonenumbers to names given in the reg. form and calling those not fitting to see if theire real ppl?
yes maddix i am stil GTO and as such partly OUZO HC.
i repeat i am not angry on the fact xtothez reported his friends, it should be a duty of everyone of us. i just have the opinion that it was a breaking of privacy, wether he could do it or not and wether one shouldve known people have the ability or not to listen to private conversations or not. obviewsly in norway this is a legal way to prove crimes but in my country its not allowed to even photograph people if they dont want it and if youre not a policeman you get imprisoned when doing that.
-
im sorry im not in the best mood today, a friend of mine killed himself and this makes me think like a stupid online game with virtual asteroids around virtual planets is of more importance to people here than friendship that really exists and this enrages me

[Saitam]

Originally posted by merlin1955
PM logging is at least immoral, if not illegal. Without a court order you have the right to expect your private conversations to be private, thats why law enforcement must get a court order permitting a wire tap.

Its quite possible xtothez is quilty of some infraction of the law.
The info he obtained would not be premitted in a court of law.

This is no different.

I applaud the idea but I can't condone the illegal methods.

Not to try and take away your beliefs totally, but for instance the US goverment phone taps more or less the entire world (sure they dont check what every call is about unless it has anything they want to know), plus they have been going around to other countries asking them to ban encrypting of e-mails so that they will be easier to de-crypt.

[Lanceman]

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
No.
This is an issue of you not grasping a harsh reality of "the Internet" that being that each and everyone of us is a 'faceless user' of sorts who can create and maintain and falsify identies, characters in some cases, of whomever and whatever we want. [...]

The internet of today doesn't have a technique for being totally anonymous afaik, so you have a face (as long as you aren't someone who can overcome the techniques being used to hunt offenders).
And what harsh reality?
What have identities to do with the privacy of someone?
I said there is privacy on the net and I am realistic there, because just as in the normal world there are mechanisms to protect your private contents.
Furthermore my point was that there are regulations about privacy on the internet, your post sounded like the internet was a place with no limits and no privacy by law (to enforce?).

added: Talking about harsh reality. A friend got rung by an ISP who presented him exerpts from ICQ on the phone. He was kind of scared and paid the bill (at that time robbed accounts were spread). Just because he didn't know he had privacy. He should have said: you show me private logs and I'll sue you and they'd probably hang up.
That's why I say there IS privacy on the internet and I won't accept statements which make people being manipulable.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Saitam
Not to try and take away your beliefs totally, but for instance the US goverment phone taps more or less the entire world (sure they dont check what every call is about unless it has anything they want to know), plus they have been going around to other countries asking them to ban encrypting of e-mails so that they will be easier to de-crypt.

Something which they are catching a lot of flak for doing. There are a lot of people who disagree with them doing it, and btw... siting the practices of the United States of America as a basis for determinating if something is right or wrong... erm...

[Aryn]

heh
if this is such a major issue.. i'd hate to see how you're react to knowing that your goverment tracks your every move. your life isn't as private as you think it is. there are cameras everywhere, phonelines are tapped.. and even emails can be read. and you're worried because one person.. who hasn't disclosed A WORD to anyone else MIGHT have seen you cyber.

oh the funny.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Aryn
heh
if this is such a major issue.. i'd hate to see how you're react to knowing that your goverment tracks your every move. your life isn't as private as you think it is. there are cameras everywhere, phonelines are tapped.. and even emails can be read. and you're worried because one person.. who hasn't disclosed A WORD to anyone else MIGHT have seen you cyber.

oh the funny.

Just to clear this one up.

I've never been on OuZo-net, and the conversations I have had in PMs that I'd rather not have someone else read was done on NetGamers, and were a lot more serious than cybering...

I'm not saying this is wrong because it hurts me (it doesn't), I'm saying it's wrong PERIOD. Again we see a community that are more focused on the individual than the whole. If you only speak up against something when it affects you, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Aryn]

and here's the difference between us. i'm not selfish. and i'm not afraid as i have nothing to hide.
yes i've said some VERY personal things on private servers before, but no i wouldn't be jumping up and down screaming if this had happened to me. as long as the person who read the pm's kept all the info to themselves, it hasn't hurt me at all. also.. if the person gave me a chance to go through and delete my pms.. even better.

if i've had something that was genuinely private, i've used other mediums to say it. i think this has been a major wake up call to those who thought that everything was private. of course it's upsetting, but if you (those who were affected) have said soemthing private during those specific TWO DAYS.. then talk to xtothez and i'm sure he'll let you delete it.

i personally have no problems with phonetaps, cameras, etc etc. if it's what can get rid of the criminals in the world, so be it.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Aryn
and here's the difference between us. i'm not selfish. and i'm not afraid as i have nothing to hide.

I'm selfish because I speak up to protect the privacy of others? I know english isn't my first language, but that just doesn't make sense...

yes i've said some VERY personal things on private servers before, but no i wouldn't be jumping up and down screaming if this had happened to me. as long as the person who read the pm's kept all the info to themselves, it hasn't hurt me at all. also.. if the person gave me a chance to go through and delete my pms.. even better.

if i've had something that was genuinely private, i've used other mediums to say it. i think this has been a major wake up call to those who thought that everything was private. of course it's upsetting, but if you (those who were affected) have said soemthing private during those specific TWO DAYS.. then talk to xtothez and i'm sure he'll let you delete it.

Again. This doesn't affect me personally, because I have never used OuZo-net. And the fact that those affected will be allowed to delete their conversations from the log after the fact that it has been logged and reviewed still doesn't change the fact that it was logged and reviewed in the first place.

And, as I have said before (I'm getting the feeling I'm repeating myself), I am perfectly aware that there are more secure ways of communicating, but that still doesn't mean he was right in logging private conversations.

And btw... I imagine there are now a few people who knows they have talked about cheating on OuZo-net, but have not been closed because their conversations haven't been picked up. Are they now going to Xtothez asking him to delete their conversations? What does he do? Trust them when they say it's not about cheating, which he can't, because that's why he did this in the first place, he didn't trust them, or does he quickly read the conversations they want deleted, which quickly and efficently ruins the whole point of having the conversation deleted in the first place? (Eeuw that's a nasty sentence... sorry)

i personally have no problems with phonetaps, cameras, etc etc. if it's what can get rid of the criminals in the world, so be it.

I don't have anything against those either, but they are actually targetted. They target a specific individual or group of individuals who have in some way drawn suspicion on themselves.

[Aryn]

and he only targetted specific people.
i'm not a techie so maybe i'm wrong.. but if it's possible it'd be extremely difficult to only log pm's made by specific people.
so he logged everything but only looked for key words such as 'login/pass'

also.. if you say that there were cheaters who didn't get caught by this, then obviously he didn't read every single convo or he would have caught them too right?

i've never once said whether i think this is morally right or wrong, but i'm looking at the end result. i think that anyone else could have done the same but come on here, laughed at people, and posted private convos. he did nothing of the sort, which raises respect in my eyes.

(anyways.. gotta go now, pharmacy math final assesment soon :\)

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Aryn
and he only targetted specific people.
i'm not a techie so maybe i'm wrong.. but if it's possible it'd be extremely difficult to only log pm's made by specific people.
so he logged everything but only looked for key words such as 'login/pass'

also.. if you say that there were cheaters who didn't get caught by this, then obviously he didn't read every single convo or he would have caught them too right?

He logged everything and then used tools to search for specific phrases in the text, which makes it marginally better. Still, this is only one case. Given how this community works, the next guy who loggs all PMs might not be so nice and defend his actions simply by pointing to this case and say "nobody minded when he did it". To avoid that we need to draw a line, and IMHO that line should be drawn at any logging of PMs.

i've never once said whether i think this is morally right or wrong, but i'm looking at the end result. i think that anyone else could have done the same but come on here, laughed at people, and posted private convos. he did nothing of the sort, which raises respect in my eyes.

You're saying the end justifies the means. My point is that that is not always the case. Again, IMHO, the good that came of this was not important enough to justify this...

(anyways.. gotta go now, pharmacy math final assesment soon :\) [/b]

I'm off for the weekend to, so I'm leaving this here... I think I've made my point anyways... pleasure debating with you, and good luck on the assesment..

[Mit]

Perhaps what was done, wasn't right, but at the same time, wasn't wrong...

Would u rather the game was overrun by cheaters?

As a multi hunter, i get the bitching from everyone on both sides, either, we're not doing enough, or we're closing the "wrong" (in otherwords, person X won't admit to cheating, but did) people.

This also proves the fact (from a thread before) about Netgamers being more secure environment to house ur alliance / battle group etc.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Epcylon
He logged everything and then used tools to search for specific phrases in the text, which makes it marginally better. Still, this is only one case. Given how this community works, the next guy who loggs all PMs might not be so nice and defend his actions simply by pointing to this case and say "nobody minded when he did it". To avoid that we need to draw a line, and IMHO that line should be drawn at any logging of PMs.

You say that, but what a techy does with HIS OWN server, is entirly up to him, (or her, if the techy is female). So long as there is warning in the MoTD, a server owner is allowed to do WTF they want with the machien, including monitoring messages. Public networks, like Netgamers, however are different. they aren't private for a start, they can't do the above.

[Banned]

I didn't see any complaining when Fury logged everything on their server...

Funny that.

[Maddix]

Originally posted by merle
yes maddix i am stil GTO and as such partly OUZO HC

If you had the same evidence on your friends would you have reported them?

[Mit]

Originally posted by Banned
I didn't see any complaining when Fury logged everything on their server...

Funny that.

What people know or doesn't effect them... they don't care about.

Same as when we close someone, all their friends start "it wasn't him, he's never cheated" etc. Or if it was a big player on 'the other side' they will go for the "he definately cheats" blah blah.

[Stiegl]

Originally posted by xtothez
*stuff*

Xtothez, u have my respect for what u did ... on the other hand i'm really sad and dont understand it!

cheating is wrong, account sharing etc. is against the rules ... still i cant understand how one can report his friends. i'd never ever report any friend if i knew he was doing anything against the rules.
i dont care if i protect a cheater then - thats not about rules or the ****ing game - thats about friendship and trust. and i'd never want to betray my friends, no matter if they cheated!
friendship > *
without friends this game would be nothing!

sad u thought different ...

[ComradeRob]

Originally posted by Stiegl
Xtothez, u have my respect for what u did ... on the other hand i'm really sad and dont understand it!

cheating is wrong, account sharing etc. is against the rules ... still i cant understand how one can report his friends. i'd never ever report any friend if i knew he was doing anything against the rules.
i dont care if i protect a cheater then - thats not about rules or the ****ing game - thats about friendship and trust. and i'd never want to betray my friends, no matter if they cheated!
friendship > *
without friends this game would be nothing!

sad u thought different ...

I agree, reporting friends is something that is very difficult to do. However, if my friends were cheating and lying about it to the extent that the people XtoTheZ reported were, I would have to think very seriously about whether I wanted people like that as my friends anyway.

[Stiegl]

Originally posted by ComradeRob
I agree, reporting friends is something that is very difficult to do. However, if my friends were cheating and lying about it to the extent that the people XtoTheZ reported were, I would have to think very seriously about whether I wanted people like that as my friends anyway.

it's just my personal opinion.
ofc its not easy and maybe i'd think about having such ppl as my friends and even if i'd decide they can no longer be my friends i'd never report them.
i've met a lot of nice ppl here, some i even know in rl now. no chance i'd ever report one of them for cheating. i trust them, they trust me - no game can change that!

edit: maybe i'm nothing better than any cheater then ... i dont care

[Heartless]

Originally posted by Stiegl
it's just my personal opinion.
ofc its not easy and maybe i'd think about having such ppl as my friends and even if i'd decide they can no longer be my friends i'd never report them.
i've met a lot of nice ppl here, some i even know in rl now. no chance i'd ever report one of them for cheating. i trust them, they trust me - no game can change that!

edit: maybe i'm nothing better than any cheater then ... i dont care

Actually ... that's the problem.
Loads of really nice people I met, too. Including meddy. But I for myself have come to the conclusion that this is just a game, and I play it for fun. Of course I want to win, but no longer at any price.
And I know one thing for sure - from r10 on I will report any cheating I recognize, even along my friends rows. It's a matter of how the game should continue, with the same old shrinking "community" or, to have a lot more fun again, with fresh blood which stands a chance, even without cheating.

[Stiegl]

visit me and i'll spank u

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Banned
I didn't see any complaining when Fury logged everything on their server...

Funny that.

Speculation. No Executive within Fury had access to any logging service. I know. I asked them all online and offline. If even Sid never had access to such tools it brings such a thing into doubt in Fury society. Of course, the rumour is that wolfbabe/ViaraiX did it anyway and even went to the lengths of hiding such a thing from Sid, Cryptic etc (Something I do not personally believe they would do.)

I'm ready to dance. Are you?

[Kileman]

Originally posted by THE GREAT ONE
When you climbed out your whole in the ground one day, did u just decide that sharing accounts don't effect other people..cos that's the stupidist thing ever said:P

e.g. u share an account use it to defend...guess what..the guy u defend against is affected..or the guy u attack with that account etc etc

when one gal remains highly ranked it usually means another gal/planet/alliance is dropping or not growing when it should, that is no better than any other type of cheating.

No, because most serious/'pro' players are able to be online 24/7 and can be contacted through a SMS etc ALL the time. But why wake them etc when someone could just login for them? the result is the same. If your attack is gonna work, your gonna have to draw enough alliance/cluster/gal defence etc... just hoping or assuming people wont be online is never a good or fair assumption to make.

Thats my view of the 'rule' at least. While it is not the same as the creators view, im not gonna go out of my way to track down friends that are breaking rules I dont fully agree with And I may have a completly different perspective to such issues, rather than the "im a n00b who logs in once a day for 10 mins and logs out and then account shared" issue.

[merle]

@ maddix: noone i reported ever got deleted... as it seems it depends on the person who reports it seems its of not much use i do it. i stopped reporting people because this fact annoyed me to much in round 6. i tried it again each round and if i had any proof on my reports have any effect id do it again but for me it was always a waste of time. as i pointed out before i doubt its such a big deal to find multies, many accounts r named like multi1, multi2 ect. or run on the same email. in my country the phonebook can be viewed by everyone, pa crew may do so too.
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is it something to be proud of that usa observes in their absolute fear and nervousity the whole world to find terrorists they grew themselves because they could throw anything evul on them? if so, why dident they know there were no massdestruction weapons in iraq? i bet they used phones there too. also they make themselves criminal in many countries doing that so is being a criminal for the "greater good" acceptable? that is the point i wonder about, the server where this happened was in germany as far as i know so german law is about to judge and as far as i know german law forbids observing people for no reason and only observation by police is allowed, everything else is to a certain point a crime.
but all this is not what concernes me, what i am shocked about is that someone observed his friends illegaly so he could find proofs for a violation of rules of a stupid game turning itslef about a bonus round of pa that should not have more meaning than a little fun. i think risking friendships because of that in my eyes is very weird. i know i repeat myself but it upsets me that certain people here think a bruce willis - action hero mentallity: lets blow an airport to get the evil terrorists from killing the president is the right way...i thought people who know how to type letters would be smarter than that
ill stop repeating myself now, any questions personally on me pm me plz i can be queried on pa net
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@ mit: as far as i know its sentinels server we use, xtothes only had the kindnes to set up the boards and even if it was his server he stil wouldve had to stick to his countries ruels and as long as that is no bananarepublic or a country like usa it wouldve been forbidden as long as each ouzonet user wouldve signed an agreement on him reading our private messages.
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@kileman: i fully agree id also only report someone for having multiaccounts or playing another account for the time he is away because thats the vacationbutton is for, i am sure if you would not lose ****loads of ressources it would be used alot more. its just mean to expect a top player to be online 24 hours a day and get his whole work crushed only because he one time had to write a test or had to sleep or to work.

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by Gerbie
To stick with the analogy:

It's technically not impossible for Microsoft and the phone company to have a similar party.

The difference being though that generally speaking, Microsoft employees and your phone company probably don't play Planetarion or would have any reason whatsoever to report your "criminal gaming ways."

Epcylon, while I respect your views and share some of your idealism for moral right and wrong, the fact of the matter is that there's a reality, and as much as I believe somethings, I still live my life within the bounds of that reality. The very same is said about one's "life" on the Internet.

Consider, "two wrongs don't make a right." Yet, it's just as 'wrong' to not report someone who's actively harming the very game thousands of others play, and play fairly. The reality being, those who cheated were actively using xtothez's services, talents, and trust for purposes of cheating. They were taking advantage of him, when you look at the facts. Perhaps they weren't intentional about it, but they did it. Perhaps, perhaps xtothez didn't make a "wrong a right" but he certainly made a very wrong "better than it was" and kept it from becoming a "bigger wrong" by not taking actions to prevent them from cheating in Planetarion further.

That's the reality. You and I can love it or hate it all we want, but it's reality. And sometimes, reality sucks for everyone involved.

[King]

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
The difference being though that generally speaking, Microsoft employees and your phone company probably don't play Planetarion or would have any reason whatsoever to report your "criminal gaming ways."

Epcylon, while I respect your views and share some of your idealism for moral right and wrong, the fact of the matter is that there's a reality, and as much as I believe somethings, I still live my life within the bounds of that reality. The very same is said about one's "life" on the Internet.

Consider, "two wrongs don't make a right." Yet, it's just as 'wrong' to not report someone who's actively harming the very game thousands of others play, and play fairly. The reality being, those who cheated were actively using xtothez's services, talents, and trust for purposes of cheating. They were taking advantage of him, when you look at the facts. Perhaps they weren't intentional about it, but they did it. Perhaps, perhaps xtothez didn't make a "wrong a right" but he certainly made a very wrong "better than it was" and kept it from becoming a "bigger wrong" by not taking actions to prevent them from cheating in Planetarion further.

That's the reality. You and I can love it or hate it all we want, but it's reality. And sometimes, reality sucks for everyone involved.

very VERY well put. Its a rare sight to see someone as eloquant as you are on here.