A little story

[Epcylon]

Well done on catching the cheaters. We need more people to stand up and sound the alarm when people they know are cheating.

But this isn't the way.

I'm not going to use the law to back my claim, because the law is only an imperfect interpretation of what we percieve as right and wrong. The letters of the law will never match the perception of right and wrong, and the more people who would realise this, the less people would bend the law to their benefit claiming "It's allright, because it's not illegal".

Instead I will say this. I have had a few PMs in my time on IRC that have been personal and to a certain extent embarrasing (and quite damaging to me as a person if it was published somewhere). They were meant for one person, and one person only. I don't care what you have the legal right to do, you still don't have the moral right to read my personal conversations with another person. Right now I'm very happy that I've never been on OuZo-net, because I would be rather worried about what kind of personal details xtothez now knew about me. I'm guessing there are a few people who use OuZo-net who have never cheated, and is at this moment worried about which of their secrets are being gossiped about behind their backs.

There are too many people who seem to belive that they have no obligation to do what is right, as long as it isn't written down in some law as a legal requirement.

You do have an obligation to do what is right, and reporting cheaters is right... reading other peoples personal conversations is not.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by merlin1955
Thats really amusing. WOnder why they call it a private server...nm

Because it's got a restricted access list.

Ladeh****ingdah.

[Mistwraith]

Originally posted by Epcylon
Well done on catching the cheaters. We need more people to stand up and sound the alarm when people they know are cheating.

But this isn't the way.

I'm not going to use the law to back my claim, because the law is only an imperfect interpretation of what we percieve as right and wrong. The letters of the law will never match the perception of right and wrong, and the more people who would realise this, the less people would bend the law to their benefit claiming "It's allright, because it's not illegal".

Instead I will say this. I have had a few PMs in my time on IRC that have been personal and to a certain extent embarrasing (and quite damaging to me as a person if it was published somewhere). They were meant for one person, and one person only. I don't care what you have the legal right to do, you still don't have the moral right to read my personal conversations with another person. Right now I'm very happy that I've never been on OuZo-net, because I would be rather worried about what kind of personal details xtothez now knew about me. I'm guessing there are a few people who use OuZo-net who have never cheated, and is at this moment worried about which of their secrets are being gossiped about behind their backs.

There are too many people who seem to belive that they have no obligation to do what is right, as long as it isn't written down in some law as a legal requirement.

You do have an obligation to do what is right, and reporting cheaters is right... reading other peoples personal conversations is not.

behind u 100% there

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Epcylon
Instead I will say this. I have had a few PMs in my time on IRC that have been personal and to a certain extent embarrasing (and quite damaging to me as a person if it was published somewhere). They were meant for one person, and one person only. I don't care what you have the legal right to do, you still don't have the moral right to read my personal conversations with another person. Right now I'm very happy that I've never been on OuZo-net, because I would be rather worried about what kind of personal details xtothez now knew about me. I'm guessing there are a few people who use OuZo-net who have never cheated, and is at this moment worried about which of their secrets are being gossiped about behind their backs.

XtotheZ has already allowed people like Nacho_Ouzo access to the logs he made so that they could have personal stuff of their choosing deleted. I don't think that was XtotheZ's interest. And all this crap about moral rights, it's a game for crying out loud. A game, which has shown time after time morals have no place in it. Cheating is immoral, yet it is prevalent in this game.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way he got the information tbh, if you want complete privacy with regards to PM, use netgamers, admins of private servers are perfectly entitled to do whatever they want with the server.

And as for using a 'legal' argument, try and sue for whatever actions have taken place. I'll bet you'll be laughed out of any court you try in.

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Epcylon
You do have an obligation to do what is right, and reporting cheaters is right... reading other peoples personal conversations is not.

Would you rather the cheaters remained open to spoil the rounds of countless more planets?

[Lillian]

Just proves one more time that DCC chats are the better pms

I couldnt report my own friends :/ Even when I know what they do... I couldnt even tell them to stop, unless they really exaggerate it.

But its good that someone did that dirty job :P
I dont blame anyone for logging private messages to collect proofes for cheating, and also dont blame ppl who cant report their friends.

[SpazMonster]

Originally posted by merlin1955
Thats really amusing. Wonder why they call it a PRIVATE server...nm thats beyond most of you as well.

You are quite confused here it seems. It is the fact that it is a private server that he can do whatever he pleases with it. If it were deemed public domain, it would be a different story, but since it is his own property/domain, he can set the rules. In the same vein the boyscouts can legally discriminate, and that race based PRIVATE organizations are allowed to exist, he can do what he pleases with his own stuff. The people using it are not forced to use it. They were using someone else's eqipment of their own free will. I know my rights, but more importantly, I know where my rights end and personal responsibility begins.

[Mistwraith]

And all this crap about moral rights, it's a game for crying out loud.

Sure it is i accept that, and if u were passing on private info on pa mail then its your own fault.. but were talking private servers, run by private individuals, when does it become a huge invaision of privacy? when they are going to read your e-mails ? cos we also know that account info goes that way as well..

its where to draw the line... now or when you have no form of private communication because u play an online game and you might be thinking of cheating !

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Supernova9
XtotheZ has already allowed people like Nacho_Ouzo access to the logs he made so that they could have personal stuff of their choosing deleted. I don't think that was XtotheZ's interest.

It makes it soo much better to know that after he has read about my secrets he will be nice enough to let me remove it... he has still read something that was not his to read in the first place.

And all this crap about moral rights, it's a game for crying out loud. A game, which has shown time after time morals have no place in it. Cheating is immoral, yet it is prevalent in this game.

So... because the rest of PA has given up on doing the right thing we shouldn't bother either? That's exactly why we have this problem in the first place. People see others cheating and feel that it's ok because "They" are doing it too.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way he got the information tbh, if you want complete privacy with regards to PM, use netgamers, admins of private servers are perfectly entitled to do whatever they want with the server.

And as for using a 'legal' argument, try and sue for whatever actions have taken place. I'll bet you'll be laughed out of any court you try in.

Read my post again... I'm not talking about the law here. Legally he can do whatever he wants... that doesn't mean he is right to do it. As I said. The law is imperfect. It is up to the individual to decide wheter what he is doing is right or wrong, not some court of law. People who hide from that responsibility is why we're having this kind of problems in the first place.

Would you rather the cheaters remained open to spoil the rounds of countless more planets?

No, I would rather the people who knew this was happening had the guts to report the cheaters, instead of looking the other way. There were lots of people who could have said something about these cheaters long before any PMs had to be logged.

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Epcylon
It makes it soo much better to know that after he has read about my secrets he will be nice enough to let me remove it... he has still read something that was not his to read in the first place.

No, I would rather the people who knew this was happening had the guts to report the cheaters, instead of looking the other way. There were lots of people who could have said something about these cheaters long before any PMs had to be logged.

Even if the people who knew reported them, they'd still need proof. What would be sufficient proof? Perhaps those PMs with the login information? Thus those people who give in those PMs then would be violating the other person's privacy by giving away something that's believed by the other person to be in confidence?

And I doubt he cares about your personal secrets which are not related to the game, especially as he probably couldn't tell who you are in real life anyway.

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Pookie
Sure it is i accept that, and if u were passing on private info on pa mail then its your own fault.. but were talking private servers, run by private individuals, when does it become a huge invaision of privacy? when they are going to read your e-mails ? cos we also know that account info goes that way as well..

its where to draw the line... now or when you have no form of private communication because u play an online game and you might be thinking of cheating !

If you used the same password for your email as your PA login, you deserve to be "hacked", no offence, but stupidity is no excuse for a lack of security, but that's another issue.

By connecting to that server, they accept that XtotheZ can do whatever he likes to that server without notifying them. Oh, and as someone else already said, if they were clever enough, they would have used DCC chat instead.

[cypher]

Originally posted by Supernova9
XtotheZ has already allowed people like Nacho_Ouzo access to the logs he made so that they could have personal stuff of their choosing deleted. I don't think that was XtotheZ's interest. And all this crap about moral rights, it's a game for crying out loud. A game, which has shown time after time morals have no place in it. Cheating is immoral, yet it is prevalent in this game.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way he got the information tbh, if you want complete privacy with regards to PM, use netgamers, admins of private servers are perfectly entitled to do whatever they want with the server.

And as for using a 'legal' argument, try and sue for whatever actions have taken place. I'll bet you'll be laughed out of any court you try in.

so basically he gives more people access to read em ? or am i misunderstanding?

i am actually REALLY glad i've never had a private conversation about myself or a friend on that server as i'd personally hate to see certain things come out into the open... a pm is a pm really.... and yes they may have cheated... but to find that xtothez must have read SOOOO many important private other stuff which is none of his business really. it's a shame people have to do this.

[Amoruso]

Originally posted by cyphie
so basically he gives more people access to read em ? or am i misunderstanding?

i am actually REALLY glad i've never had a private conversation about myself or a friend on that server as i'd personally hate to see certain things come out into the open... a pm is a pm really.... and yes they may have cheated... but to find that xtothez must have read SOOOO many important private other stuff which is none of his business really. it's a shame people have to do this.

If they were dumb enough to use the server of someone who would do somthing like this, then Hell bloody mend them.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Supernova9
Even if the people who knew reported them, they'd still need proof. What would be sufficient proof? Perhaps those PMs with the login information? Thus those people who give in those PMs then would be violating the other person's privacy by giving away something that's believed by the other person to be in confidence?

There is a difference between sharing information that was given to you as part of a conversation you were involved in, and sharing information you got by listening in on someone elses conversation.

And I doubt he cares about your personal secrets which are not related to the game, especially as he probably couldn't tell who you are in real life anyway.

Are you really this thick? It's not a matter of what he is interested in, or if he knows me in real life. Wheter he is interested or not, he gets information that he is not supposed to have. Things that are not meant for him to read.

If you are going to claim that he can selectively remember what he wants to remember, and what he doesn't feel interested in at this particular moment in time, you're delutional

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by cyphie
so basically he gives more people access to read em ? or am i misunderstanding?

i am actually REALLY glad i've never had a private conversation about myself or a friend on that server as i'd personally hate to see certain things come out into the open... a pm is a pm really.... and yes they may have cheated... but to find that xtothez must have read SOOOO many important private other stuff which is none of his business really. it's a shame people have to do this.

Yeah, you've misunderstood a bit. Basically he'd let people read the messages from/to themselves to see if there's anything irrelevant to the cheating they want deleted.

DCC chats, the way to go people.

[Leshy]

I would just like to say that I think this is all blown out of proportion somewhat. As far as I know, XtotheZ made the modification just for a single night because he wanted to know if his network was being used by cheaters.

As the server admin, he has full rights to know whether or not the people using his services are indeed misusing that service to cheat in Planetarion - something which was indeed the case.

I sincerely doubt that XtotheZ cared or even read PM's not containing any logins, or that he is doing something like this structurally and regularly. Just for a single night he decided to check if people were indeed doing blatant login-sharing and hey presto: they were.

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Epcylon
There is a difference between sharing information that was given to you as part of a conversation you were involved in, and sharing information you got by listening in on someone elses conversation.

If your secrets are that secret, why talk to them on a server where you could have your PMs logged? Just assuming they aren't being logged isn't a good enough excuse - ignorance is no excuse. If you want complete privacy, DCC chats, otherwise you can't guarantee security of communication. It's like if you were using a phone at my house, and I chose to record all phone calls, if you don't want it recorded, don't talk on my phone, I'm perfectly within my rights to record it.

Oh, and going back a bit, wanting people to report friends is all well and good, but it's not happening is it? Two options, either log PMs to catch people, or let them go unpunished, and spoil the game for everyone they attack or anyone they defend against. which do you choose?

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Supernova9
If you used the same password for your email as your PA login, you deserve to be "hacked", no offence, but stupidity is no excuse for a lack of security, but that's another issue.

You're missing the point.

If we accept that he uses the means available to him to read personal conversations in order to find cheaters, you will also accept that the sysadmins on the server where you get your mail reads your mail in order to find out if you've been naughty or nice this year. Personally I'd like personal conversations and emails to remain personal, and not something that anyone with the technical know-how can read whenever they feel like because they are "looking for naughty people".

There is a reason you need a court order to wire-tap a phoneline, and that is to protect the personal conversations of innocent people. If you give anyone who knows how a carte blanch to intercept personal conversations/emails just because you hope to catch the few who are naughty you are seriously hurting the basic right to privacy that everyone should have (regardless of law).

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Supernova9
If your secrets are that secret, why talk to them on a server where you could have your PMs logged? Just assuming they aren't being logged isn't a good enough excuse - ignorance is no excuse. If you want complete privacy, DCC chats, otherwise you can't guarantee security of communication. It's like if you were using a phone at my house, and I chose to record all phone calls, if you don't want it recorded, don't talk on my phone, I'm perfectly within my rights to record it.

Legally, you have every right. Morally, I don't agree. Say you did go to your friends house, and while you were there your girlfriend called you, you ask him to leave the room to get some privacy, which he does. Now, you have a fight there on the phone, and because your friend is paranoid he taped it. Later that night he listens to you arguing with your girlfriend. According to your logic, that would be perfectly ok, and legally, it is. Morally, imho, it isn't.

Oh, and going back a bit, wanting people to report friends is all well and good, but it's not happening is it? Two options, either log PMs to catch people, or let them go unpunished, and spoil the game for everyone they attack or anyone they defend against. which do you choose?

There you go again.. just because the world is screwed up, doesn't mean we shouldn't bother trying to change it. And the fact that it is screwed up does not give us the right to screw it up even more.

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Epcylon
Legally, you have every right. Morally, I don't agree. Say you did go to your friends house, and while you were there your girlfriend called you, you ask him to leave the room to get some privacy, which he does. Now, you have a fight there on the phone, and because your friend is paranoid he taped it. Later that night he listens to you arguing with your girlfriend. According to your logic, that would be perfectly ok, and legally, it is. Morally, imho, it isn't.

That's why I have a mobile phone (the equivalent in this analogy of DCC chats). If I really want privacy, I take it on that.

There you go again.. just because the world is screwed up, doesn't mean we shouldn't bother trying to change it. And the fact that it is screwed up does not give us the right to screw it up even more.

That's not an answer to the question.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Leshy
I would just like to say that I think this is all blown out of proportion somewhat. As far as I know, XtotheZ made the modification just for a single night because he wanted to know if his network was being used by cheaters.

If we are only looking at this case, it is blown out of proportion, but there is a principle here that needs to be addressed.

I sincerely doubt that XtotheZ cared or even read PM's not containing any logins, or that he is doing something like this structurally and regularly. Just for a single night he decided to check if people were indeed doing blatant login-sharing and hey presto: they were.

And just how is he supposed to know which PMs contain logins without reading them? And saying it's ok because he was only doing it a little bit... I've heard that argument before... it was made by Monty Python in a sketch...

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Supernova9
That's not an answer to the question.

You're right, it isn't. I'm trying to explain that there are more options than those two.

The option I would chose is to try and make people understand that the only way this game will survive is if everyone takes a stand against cheating and reports cheaters when they meet them, wheter they are friends or not.

There is no point in chosing between your two options, because neither is going to solve the problem, they will only bring new ones.

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Epcylon
You're right, it isn't. I'm trying to explain that there are more options than those two.

The option I would chose is to try and make people understand that the only way this game will survive is if everyone takes a stand against cheating and reports cheaters when they meet them, wheter they are friends or not.

There is no point in chosing between your two options, because neither is going to solve the problem, they will only bring new ones.

I believe that option has been tried for quite a while, and it's efficiency can be shown by the rampant cheating present in the game. I agree that there really isn't an ideal solution to preventing cheating, but I do believe that such methods as XtotheZ's are the best of a bad selection if you will.

Pleasure debating with you, I'm off to bed

[JonnyBGood]

I think you're all ignoring the bigger picture concerning Planetarion here. Have any of you bothered to realise what this implies for every single alliance/BG? This is the first time something resembling this has ever been attempted (to my recollection) and look at the results. Disturbing to say the least.


As for the accusations of immorality or illegality on Xtothez's part I disagree. If I went to someone's house and had a private conversation concerning something illegal I don't think I'd have a right to complain if they reported me to the authorities. From the little I know of the situation it appears that the worst xtothez is guilty of is omitting to provide information (I'm assuming he didn't tell everyone he was definitely going to log all pm's beforehand), and even then I'm assuming most servers have some form of disclaimer in a similar fashion to the forums.

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by Supernova9
I believe that option has been tried for quite a while, and it's efficiency can be shown by the rampant cheating present in the game. I agree that there really isn't an ideal solution to preventing cheating, but I do believe that such methods as XtotheZ's are the best of a bad selection if you will.

I respectfully disagree... The current situation certainly isn't good enough, but I think there are better ways than this.

Pleasure debating with you, I'm off to bed

Likewise.. good night.

[Perfect]

Originally posted by Leshy
I would just like to say that I think this is all blown out of proportion somewhat. As far as I know, XtotheZ made the modification just for a single night because he wanted to know if his network was being used by cheaters.

oi oi oi lucky night isn`t it?

1. some members suspected in cheating
2. "exactly same night" XtotheZ made modifications those members had conversation about their l/p(i dont think they do that every night right?)

[IRONY]...yes i agree XtotheZ is an angel and he never read pm`s before... he just got lucky... i`m 100% sure your PM`s are safe in that server while XtotheZ is an admin... [/IRONY]

[Epcylon]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I think you're all ignoring the bigger picture concerning Planetarion here. Have any of you bothered to realise what this implies for every single alliance/BG? This is the first time something resembling this has ever been attempted (to my recollection) and look at the results. Disturbing to say the least.

True, it is rather disturbing that cheating is so widespread, but surely that is no surprise? And there has been rumours of things like this happening before, just not used for catching cheaters, but for catching attacks, spies, spying etc. If those rumours are true or not we will probably never know, but they are also exactly the reason we are discussing this. If we allow PM logging for this reason, we allow it for any reason the admin deems worthy.

But that is also besides the point. We all agree that the goal of this excecise was a good one, but what I don't like is the side-effects.

As for the accusations of immorality or illegality on Xtothez's part I disagree. If I went to someone's house and had a private conversation concerning something illegal I don't think I'd have a right to complain if they reported me to the authorities.

Again, there is a difference. What was done in this case can be compared to taping every conversation, and listening to all the tapes afterwards.

Overhearing a conversation about a crime and reporting it could be compared to someone discussing cheating in a channel when you enter it, and you reporting it.

[Neferti]

Originally posted by Perfect
oi oi oi lucky night isn`t it?

1. some members suspected in cheating
2. "exactly same night" XtotheZ made modifications those members had conversation about their l/p(i dont think they do that every night right?)

[IRONY]...yes i agree XtotheZ is an angel and he never read pm`s before... he just got lucky... i`m 100% sure your PM`s are safe in that server while XtotheZ is an admin... [/IRONY]

indeed didnt his first post read 'after just a few days' he started to see a lot of things wrong? that's more than one night, leshy...

[Neferti]

well.. just two nights he says

the implication is that it was for longer...

[Backbone]

Originally posted by Supernova9
That's why I have a mobile phone (the equivalent in this analogy of DCC chats). If I really want privacy, I take it on that.

it's a bit off-topic, but you know how easy it is to listen to a conversation made over a mobile phone compared to the conversation made over a normal phone? Mobile phones are not scrambled, and there are portable devices out there that pretend to the mobile to be a connection node so it sends the conversation to them. Also, every mobile phone is trackable because of technical means. And you can switch a mobile on without showing it is switched on and connected.

better use a normal phone than a mobile for you private conversations.

[Epcylon]

Oh right.. forgot to comment about that.

By saying that those who wanted privacy should have used DCC chat (or a mobile phone in the case of a wire-tap) you are in effect saying that only those who have the technical know-how are entitled to privacy. I assume you also think that only people who encrypt their emails are entitled to not having them posted on the web? Do you encrypt your emails?

I don't encrypt my emails, and I don't normally use DCC chat, although I do know how to do both. The reasons are many, but mainly it is because the things I say in PMs and in emails are not of such a nature that I feel going the extra mile to protect them is (or should be) neccessary. On the other hand, I still would feel violated if someone who was not meant to read it uses their access to read my mail or my PMs. They have no right to do so. They may have a legal opportunity to do so, but that doesn't mean they have the right.

[OneColourRed]

I do havea certain amount of admiration for what you have done with getting these cheats closed.

However I am in complete agreement with Epcylon. Logging PMs is not moral. If some people got access to some of the Personal messages which i have had with other people over the last few years then there could have been serious repercussions for these peoples personal lives as well as my own. One of the points of PERSONAL messages/chat is so you can get advice on a real life scenario which may be embarrasing or very delicate situation, and in my opinon this provacy should not be violated.

Its a bit like your best friend blurting out your darkest secrets to a complete stranger.

[Sirad]

Originally posted by laputa
And yet he was Madcows Military Officer at a time when you were HC.

yet I was also there and there was no evidance presented to us that he cheated at that time so we took him and others on there word they never cheated.

now if you are to question us accepting there word that they wouldent be cheating, would you then say yor own word is also worthless,.

however in retrospect I'm glad they left madcows over the speed game seeing this..

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Logging PMs isn't "moral".

Neither is cheating in the game.

Takes a thief to catch a thief. I personally don't condone the methods, but I applaud the end results and the sheer balls that it takes to mass-report people who are your friends and alliance mates.

[Aryn]

oh for crying out loud

i seriously doubt he sat there reading every single pm. and if he did he most likely scanned for login/pass, and didn't actually read the convos.

from what i know he had suspected a few specific people. and i'm pretty sure those were the people he read pms of.
he has done quite an amazing job at keeping his mouth shut if he did read the pm's cause i'm pretty sure he would have found out some interesting things. now either he didn't read these things, or he's moral enough to delete the pm as it wasn't what he was looking for and forget about the whole issue. he's not going to run around telling your deepest secrets, and for that you should give respect. he only gave the bit of proof he needed and that was it.

i give a ton of respect to him. and quite honestly if any of the priv servers i've been on logged pm's i wouldn't be upset at all if it's been put to good use (catching cheaters).


oh and Perfect. you don't happen to be one of those people who just didn't bother reg'ing till now are you? or are you one of the bitter people who reg'd a new account to save face?

[NaQ]

i deleted your post for a reason. no trolling please - Aryn

[CamelToe]

Originally posted by cyphie
so basically he gives more people access to read em ? or am i misunderstanding?

i am actually REALLY glad i've never had a private conversation about myself or a friend on that server as i'd personally hate to see certain things come out into the open... a pm is a pm really.... and yes they may have cheated... but to find that xtothez must have read SOOOO many important private other stuff which is none of his business really. it's a shame people have to do this.

what kind of moron discusses anything so sensitive on the internet and not realize that it could easily be seen or read? stop making yourself look foolish by blowing this out of proportion.

and to all the teeny-boppers who think the world is gonna come crashing down around them because XtoTheZ now knows they like to have gay cyber-sex, well... you deserve to be made fun of.

[Goatsemaster]

Originally posted by merlin1955
PM logging is at least immoral, if not illegal. Without a court order you have the right to expect your private conversations to be private, thats why law enforcement must get a court order permitting a wire tap.

Idiot.

[Som1]

Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
Logging PMs isn't "moral".

Neither is cheating in the game.

Takes a thief to catch a thief. I personally don't condone the methods, but I applaud the end results and the sheer balls that it takes to mass-report people who are your friends and alliance mates.

[Prophey]

Good work xtothez. Well done, if I had the capability and the know-how, I would do it myself.

There has been worse things in the world done than monitoring IRC PM's. For the greater good I say. If this is the beginning of a smack down on cheaters then I say bring it on.

That's what DCC chat / ICQ / MSN is for. Alternative "PRIVATE" chats.

Whether it is immoral or unethical, who gives a ****, for the greater good. The greater good out shines whatever he has done. All you "ethics" and "moral" PhD students out there can go eat a donkey's ass and choke on it.

If you wanna start on ethics and morals, why don't you start on the cheaters first? Stupid **** eating pimple faced toss bags.

[Kileman]

Originally posted by Hicks

I'm 95% sure that Fury Net logged PMs, I certainly never really used PMs there because I was paranoid a certain Tech officer would read them. I never once considered if she could it would have been illegal, to be honest anyone who treats this game as something which should be concerned with the legallity of actions like this one should be lynched.

Yer, I was pretty sure wb logged our pms, as much as she denied it... whenever you talked about her in pm she always seemed to be bitchy around ya and 'bugs' with access suddenly appeared. Although this feature was never available to the exec or hc (as far as I knew (they denied it completly "<Zhil> Not even sid ever had pm logging")) it was highly likely it was present and a way to catch spys etc using furynet.

But thumbs up to XtotheZ for reporting cheaters who were friends... its something that can be hard to do... but its the 'right' thing to do, and can get a lot of people to hate u. But its just a game.

[Zh|l]

Whilst I was Fury Executive I never saw anything to do with pm logging whatsoever. Sid also told me he never had access to anything of the sort either.

Whilst I was with ViaraiX/wolfbabe during the Fury Meet I never saw anything that remotely looked like pm logging or such.

[CrazyConrad]

Well done XtotheZ

To the rest of you flaming XtotheZ for what he did cause it was illegal blah blah please do the community a favour and fk off from pa.

[Mit]

Originally posted by gadas
Yes can Zeus or someone else involved explain why F2F is still open?
I'm glad we are getting rid of cheaters but closing cheaters selectivly isn't nice. As logs showed there was login details of F2F in there and xtotez confirmed that they were working so he should be closed as well.

On a side note: xtotez should be closed too for logging in theese accounts as well.

Being the hunter that checked ALL the accounts in the log, i only closed the ones that worked.

[xtothez]

Data 5,772 KB 
Index 1,347 KB 
Total 7,109 KB 

Rows 106,901  
Next Autoindex 111,224

For anyone intresting, that is the state of the table 2 days after logging ceased, and after any requested PMs have been removed/filtered. Thats one hundred and seven thousand rows. 107,000 lines of IRC text. It goes without saying that I dont read this through personally. The system simply flags key words related to cheating and shows the nearby lines. Nine times out of ten this is accurate. The other time I simply skipped through it, as tbh it was a waste of time to read things not related to the cheating.

----------------

I wake up this morning to a BNC log full of compliments and respect for these actions. I'd like to thank you all for your support, this is a far better response than I had expected.

And to those who still disagree with my actions - no, I'm still not proud of them. But as AlbinoSqrl has said, it does take a thief to catch a thief. And if it costs me my reputation under this nickname to make a public statement like this, then so be it.

[Sjor]

Originally posted by Perfect
oi oi oi lucky night isn`t it?

1. some members suspected in cheating
2. "exactly same night" XtotheZ made modifications those members had conversation about their l/p(i dont think they do that every night right?)

[IRONY]...yes i agree XtotheZ is an angel and he never read pm`s before... he just got lucky... i`m 100% sure your PM`s are safe in that server while XtotheZ is an admin... [/IRONY]

now i can easier explain how all my lovely VOMMV xraid ppl got hit in the same night
well maybe it didnt happen but on this server we had a lot of BG's, gal cahnnels, def channels, even we hosted it for a certain part of the speed game, and a lot of intel was there to get and most of us were on the VOMMV side in R9 Xto was teenwar
/me calcs 1+1 together

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Sjor
now i can easier explain how all my lovely VOMMV xraid ppl got hit in the same night
well maybe it didnt happen but on this server we had a lot of BG's, gal cahnnels, def channels, even we hosted it for a certain part of the speed game, and a lot of intel was there to get and most of us were on the VOMMV side in R9 Xto was teenwar
/me calcs 1+1 together

I can take flak for reporting friends, I can take flak for reading PMs and I can even take it for compromising privacy, but dont ****ing dare insinuate I was there to spy against you all.
If you had any conception of the amount of time and effort I put into ouzo tech you would think twice before posting. Fully integrated IRC services, member tools, boards and automatic systems do not write themselves, and I have put far too many late nights and missed many hours I should have been studying for uni to assemble something you seem to take for granted. I know what I did was not ethical by any means, but that is no excuse to start on personal accusations of an ulterior motive.

I have offered a copy of the ouzo tech + source code to sentinel, who will take over from me on his own hosting should ouzo continue. I still however dont believe for a second that gesture would earn me any respite from a community so entrenched in bitterness and hypocrisy, seeking to lay blame on others to excuse their own cheating.

[insomniak]

I usually dont post much on forums but today i feel like doing it :P Ive been with Ouzo since r6 and it been the community ive ever been with. There are a lot of nice people there and ouzo will still live on. Though i suspected some ouzo of having multiple accounts i never thought Nacho was part of it... Even though he was caught cheating it still doesnt change my opinion bout him. Hes a great person and a wonderful person to talk to. I hope this doesnt keep Nacho from every joining irc because this is just a game. I dont care if hes cheated... nor do i care what other people may say negative about Nacho or the great community of Ouzo. I do think what XtZ did was wrong but i dont fault him for doing it... I just hope he gets rid of logs bout my pornagraphy ring, drug trafficing and logs bout my third nipple... those would be embarrasing if those got out :P

[Sjor]

Originally posted by xtothez
I can take flak for reporting friends, I can take flak for reading PMs and I can even take it for compromising privacy, but dont ****ing dare insinuate I was there to spy against you all.
If you had any conception of the amount of time and effort I put into ouzo tech you would think twice before posting. Fully integrated IRC services, member tools, boards and automatic systems do not write themselves, and I have put far too many late nights and missed many hours I should have been studying for uni to assemble something you seem to take for granted. I know what I did was not ethical by any means, but that is no excuse to start on personal accusations of an ulterior motive.

I have offered a copy of the ouzo tech + source code to sentinel, who will take over from me on his own hosting should ouzo continue. I still however dont believe for a second that gesture would earn me any respite from a community so entrenched in bitterness and hypocrisy, seeking to lay blame on others to excuse their own cheating.

i really respected all the work u put in the irc
tbh havent seen an ally with a better irc
and i dont blame u its only maybe u didnt get what ouzo stands for
anyway im out of tick based games so dont take me serious

[booji]

Originally posted by xtothez
I still however dont believe for a second that gesture would earn me any respite from a community so entrenched in bitterness and hypocrisy, seeking to lay blame on others to excuse their own cheating.

that is not a fair comment the vast majorty of the community have not cheated and alot of ppl had no idea about it, most of us are still trying to work out quite what happened and what we are going to do next thus I dont like the idea of U saying the OuZo community in general is emtrenched in bitterness and hypocracy.

I am not saying that I would nessisarly have done anything had I known, tho I am not particularly against what U did, but I am rather against this public post about it, and I suspect alot of other OuZo's are too