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Unread 8 May 2003, 12:57   #51
Saitam
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Why do ppl keep claiming,"I know these ppl, they would never do this". Fact is, you never know what another person will do, or why they may do it.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 13:17   #52
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well I haven't bothered to read all of it... well more or less nothing of it, but if I am to state my point of view then I'll just say... Its not posible and I will be the first person to leave if its tried to be done.

We have lots of nice ideas for next round to make the round more fun so no reason to take such drastic actions.

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Unread 8 May 2003, 13:48   #53
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Just my two pence worth (for those of you who don't know, I'm the guy that writes P and deals with the NG version of ircu).

1) There has been abuse of oper/CSC services in the past. There is no way of denying this. *HOWEVER* almost all of the `old school' oper/CSC crew are no longer with us. This effectively means that all the people who were well known to abuse services are no longer here.

2) Any use of services (both CSC and oper) is well logged and very noisy. Believe me, if someone started inviting their way into private channels then they would have about 4 PMs inside of a few minutes asking them what was going on.

3) The new breed of network staff are very anti-abuse, especially me personally. If I saw someone doing any of this, or got reliable logs of it happening, I would come down on whoever it was like a ton of bricks and I know I would have the network admins behind me. Believe me, we take abuse very very seriously. I like to think this new attitude is why people who quote oper abuse still reference things that happened ages and ages ago.

4) If you are going to have a private channel, for the love of god use some common sense. Don't have network wide bots in there (PBOT, Stats) and do actually check your access lists regularly. Believe it or not, most of them time when a channel gets reported as `hacked' its because one of the channel members with high access has decided to f**k that channel over and actually has nothing to do with insecurity. Trust the people you give such access - and check they are worth it regularly

If anyone has any specific questions about NetGamers and security/what opers can do/etc, feel free to ask in this thread and I will do my best to answer them.

And now I shall end with a quote which I have always found very apt:

There's a lot of hate for opers for a lot of reasons. Some are directly oper related (i.e. 99% of us are collossal assholes), some are directly user related (i.e. 99% of you are raving lunatics), and some are just plain misconceptions.

GK
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Unread 8 May 2003, 13:54   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeekay

There's a lot of hate for opers for a lot of reasons. Some are directly oper related (i.e. 99% of us are collossal assholes), some are directly user related (i.e. 99% of you are raving lunatics), and some are just plain misconceptions.

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so true

PS u the same jeekay from p15 rd 4 ?
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Unread 8 May 2003, 15:56   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
How is it safer?
How do you think?

Restricting control to only those are in the alliance, therefore removing the possibility of anyone gaining access by abusing admin controls?

Setting up your own bot, that can restrict access much better than P can?

Having fewer people around who will be interested in gaining access?

I thought it was obvious. You don't keep secrets by letting other people control them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
You realize that alliances actually gain benefits from using NetGamers? Fact is that activity generally drops by 5-10% or more when one moves to a private network.
In which case boot the inactive members, etc.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 16:27   #56
Jeekay
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Setting up your own bot, that can restrict access much better than P can?
I'm curious - how do you restrict access much better than P can? I would welcome any suggestions for additions that would allow people to restrict their channels further.

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Unread 8 May 2003, 16:44   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeekay
I'm curious - how do you restrict access much better than P can? I would welcome any suggestions for additions that would allow people to restrict their channels further.

GK
The best example I can think of is limiting people to access from certain hosts. For example, limiting a user to only being able to log in from *.btinternet.com (home) and a work IP/host also. If someone attempts to log in as this user from another host, they will be blocked. Such a security measure is impossible with P. Admittedly it's a rather paranoid feature, but it does illustrate the fact that there is more flexibility when coding your own services (or running third-party services designed with heavy security in mind) than using P. Whether alliances actually need these features is another matter altogether.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 16:50   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
How do you think?
I think that private servers are no more secure than usage of NetGamers. It does however create the illusion of security. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and by far the weakest link in alliance security is social engineering (ie spies).

Quote:
Restricting control to only those are in the alliance, therefore removing the possibility of anyone gaining access by abusing admin controls?
Access is restricted no more than NetGamers. Anyone who knows the server IP/address can connect.

Quote:
Setting up your own bot, that can restrict access much better than P can?
Just for the pedants, P is a service, not a bot (PBOT, Stats and CH are bots). I've yet to see a service that surpasses gnuworld in privacy protection, features and all-round functionality.

Quote:
Having fewer people around who will be interested in gaining access?
Technically hiding a channel name is just as easy as hiding a server IP.

Quote:
I thought it was obvious. You don't keep secrets by letting other people control them.
Really? Explain to me how plenty of upstarts manage to keep quiet while having their channels on NG? I can cite plenty of cases of alliance techies doing more damage than the volunteers on NG could ever hope to.

Quote:
In which case boot the inactive members, etc.
Not on the alliance server doesn't equate inactive.

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Last edited by Jester; 8 May 2003 at 16:56.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 17:32   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saitam
Why do ppl keep claiming,"I know these ppl, they would never do this". Fact is, you never know what another person will do, or why they may do it.
With regards to snow, both A2 and I know him very well both online and in real life. We see him frequently, and know him easily well enough to be 100% sure about the things we have said.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 17:56   #60
Bashar
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And going back to the topic - my personal preference is to have a private alliance server. There are several reasons for this:

1. Aesthetics - It gives a professional feel, and just feels nice to have for some reason.
2. For stupid people like me, it helps seperate alliance stuff from other PA related stuff, and general discussion stuff, and as a result, makes sure I don't (or didn't) say something "sensitive" in the wrong place.
3. As already mentioned - the channel registrations are far easier on your own server.
4. Security - Netgamers doesn't have +R/+r (whichever) which can be used on a private server to restrict to only registered members
5. Whilst P is a good bot - it is a bit of a git to clear (purge) a channels access, and then start a fresh (as many alliances do every round) - maybe something you could add Jeekay?
6. With private servers, you can remove someone from the irc, forums etc. very easily (or modify their access due to rank change) without having to alter for every single channel (though I assume this could be done on netgamers with a bot??)
7. Netgamers only lets you register channels to one person, and they can only have a set amount, which means that in the event of an HC/exec leaving, some channels could be lost, and in the event of a dictatorial alliance, one person may not be able to have enough channels in their name - so maybe some method of registering channels to an alliance rather than to a person (god knows how that could be worked)
8. A private alliance server allows custom hostmasks - which is brilliant for assessing someones rank very quickly.

These are mostly just aesthetic though, and minor, but they do make it worth having if you have the resources available to your alliance.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 18:28   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bashar
And going back to the topic - my personal preference is to have a private alliance server. There are several reasons for this:

1. Aesthetics - It gives a professional feel, and just feels nice to have for some reason.
Fair enough.
Quote:
2. For stupid people like me, it helps seperate alliance stuff from other PA related stuff, and general discussion stuff, and as a result, makes sure I don't (or didn't) say something "sensitive" in the wrong place.
With modern clients and seamless multiserver connections this isn't much of an issue imo, though it's obviously a personal preference.
Quote:
3. As already mentioned - the channel registrations are far easier on your own server.
Depends on who runs the server. I've heard some horror stories about getting chans regged on private networks.
Quote:
4. Security - Netgamers doesn't have +R/+r (whichever) which can be used on a private server to restrict to only registered members
Yes it does (+r).
Quote:
5. Whilst P is a good bot - it is a bit of a git to clear (purge) a channels access, and then start a fresh (as many alliances do every round) - maybe something you could add Jeekay?
This has been requested several times, and is usually denied under the reason that 'removing people one by one better prevents abuse by people with 400+ access'.
Quote:
6. With private servers, you can remove someone from the irc, forums etc. very easily (or modify their access due to rank change) without having to alter for every single channel (though I assume this could be done on netgamers with a bot??)
Quite correct. The difference would be small and insignificant.
Quote:
7. Netgamers only lets you register channels to one person, and they can only have a set amount, which means that in the event of an HC/exec leaving, some channels could be lost, and in the event of a dictatorial alliance, one person may not be able to have enough channels in their name - so maybe some method of registering channels to an alliance rather than to a person (god knows how that could be worked)
Cservice are happy to 'overthrow' alliance channels if all the supporters agree.
Quote:
8. A private alliance server allows custom hostmasks - which is brilliant for assessing someones rank very quickly.
I've always found more fun in making custom hosts like wankstain but that's just me
It is true that this is an issue. You'd probably not want to use custom ranks like that on NetGamers at all.

Quote:
These are mostly just aesthetic though, and minor, but they do make it worth having if you have the resources available to your alliance.
That depends, doesn't it? If you review Poma's original post he says that nos have a serious issue with DDoSes on their network, and he's asking about the security implications of moving to NetGamers. The dime could turn any day and dump other alliances from their hosting, at which point it might not be worthwhile to invest those resources anymore. I agree that there are many added comforts in running private servers. It does add extra hassles as well though.

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Last edited by Jester; 8 May 2003 at 18:37.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 19:14   #62
MrL_JaKiri
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
Access is restricted no more than NetGamers. Anyone who knows the server IP/address can connect.
I quite clearly meant admin access, otherwise, the rest of the point doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
Not on the alliance server doesn't equate inactive.
It does for the purpose of the alliance.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
Just for the pedants, P is a service, not a bot (PBOT, Stats and CH are bots). I've yet to see a service that surpasses gnuworld in privacy protection, features and all-round functionality.
Service then, it doesn't make any difference.

P can have multiple logins to the same account, which means that many people could access a private channel with the same account; if you set it up that only one user could be online with a given account at one time, recovering any previous user (and of course not letting you logout) is just one example of how P is relatively insecure.

ps. See Rob's post too.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 19:22   #63
Jester
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
I quite clearly meant admin access, otherwise, the rest of the point doesn't make any sense at all.
Fair enough, but I don't see really see how this restricts people from abusing admin powers. Like I said, I've seen more of it in alliances than I have on NetGamers.


Quote:
It does for the purpose of the alliance.
Unless you have your private channel on NetGamers, which was my point.

Quote:
P can have multiple logins to the same account, which means that many people could access a private channel with the same account;
It's quite easy to catch this though...

Quote:
is just one example of how P is relatively insecure.

ps. See Rob's post too.
Rob's point is fair, but doesn't really make a big difference. If you lose your alliance password to the world then they can just as easily come onto the private alliance server as join the private NetGamers channel. And if the password was given away... The most normal way of spying these days is by using channel relays, so why not just join under their normal nick and relay everything you say instead?

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Unread 8 May 2003, 19:28   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
It's not a question of it being secure vs insecure, my point is that in all cases netgamers is NOT AS SECURE AS A PRIVATE NETWORK.

Private servers may not be secure on an absolute scale, but they're less insecure;

like the point about techies; they'd have similar powers on NG, but so would the NG admins. You're just lowering the potential number of security issues.
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Unread 8 May 2003, 19:39   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's not a question of it being secure vs insecure, my point is that in all cases netgamers is NOT AS SECURE AS A PRIVATE NETWORK.

Private servers may not be secure on an absolute scale, but they're less insecure;
That's bull****, there are a plethora of new security issues that arise when you move alliance IRC off a network like NG.

Quote:
like the point about techies; they'd have similar powers on NG, but so would the NG admins. You're just lowering the potential number of security issues.
This tactic is normally known as FUD. Fact is that the NG admins are more reliable than your average alliance techie because they have to conform to public and peer review on a daily basis. On the other hand, your average powermad 15-50 year old alliance techie is just as likely to be a freedom loving gimp as a totalitarian fascist who wants to know your every thoughts. Most alliance techies use ircds that allow much more control (the aforementioned +I and viewing of +s channels, not to mention ircds running in debug, allowing recording of all PMs and so on...).

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Unread 8 May 2003, 19:57   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
Fair enough, but I don't see really see how this restricts people from abusing admin powers. Like I said, I've seen more of it in alliances than I have on NetGamers.
Depends what sort of 'abuse' you mean. It varies in scale and effect. While you could classify gratuitous kicks/kills as abuse, it certainly doesnt compare to abuse from admins who arent members (illegal access, etc).

Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
It's quite easy to catch this though...
Really? P doesnt make any sort of notification when two people with the same username enter a channel, and without (forced) custom hosts there's no way to tell without doing a verify on every user. I've easily spied on channels by using a generic nick such as 'Away' or 'bbl|eating', even when the owner of the username is in the channel.
I have written custom IRC services for an alliance server, and one restriction is that it only allows one login per nick (it also tracks IP accesses and alerts on unusual logins, such as the same nick being used from 2 different countries).

Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
Rob's point is fair, but doesn't really make a big difference. If you lose your alliance password to the world then they can just as easily come onto the private alliance server as join the private NetGamers channel.
What if this isnt known? Ok, fairly informed people will know where to find most major priv servers, but casual spies may not know where to join and test.
There is also the advantage of custom services being harder to 'poke around' on. Everyone knows how to use P, and can fiddle around trying various passwords for a user, then look up their channel access on the NG website to see where to join.
Private services can be made more cryptic and limit what a user sees. Someone breaking into someone elses login wont be able to see which channels they can use, and can be spotted by suspicious behaviour (such as not joining their gal chan).
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Unread 8 May 2003, 20:36   #67
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Originally posted by xtothez
Depends what sort of 'abuse' you mean. It varies in scale and effect. While you could classify gratuitous kicks/kills as abuse, it certainly doesnt compare to abuse from admins who arent members (illegal access, etc).
I mean techies feeding information to hostile alliances, abusing trust. Not harmless stuff like kicks/kills.

Quote:
Really? P doesnt make any sort of notification when two people with the same username enter a channel, and without (forced) custom hosts there's no way to tell without doing a verify on every user. I've easily spied on channels by using a generic nick such as 'Away' or 'bbl|eating', even when the owner of the username is in the channel.
I said it's easy to catch, not trivial. Idiots will still be caught off guard by it. But then this wouldn't be any different on a private network, would it?

Quote:
I have written custom IRC services for an alliance server, and one restriction is that it only allows one login per nick (it also tracks IP accesses and alerts on unusual logins, such as the same nick being used from 2 different countries).
By default P allows one login per nick. It's possible to raise this to 3. If you're worried about people's account passwords being abused, try to make sure they keep the limit at one. The difference here is mainly that P makes it optional. As for different countries, no P would not allow people to track this. I suppose you could enforce turning off +x in the channels, but that's a bit 'lame' in my opinion. This is of course, one of the advantages of running a private server. You can be a totalitarian dictator ala Big Brother if you'd like. I don't really see why you should treat you members like morons.

Quote:
What if this isnt known? Ok, fairly informed people will know where to find most major priv servers, but casual spies may not know where to join and test.
Again, it's easy (though not trivial) to set up a bot to catch this.
Quote:
There is also the advantage of custom services being harder to 'poke around' on. Everyone knows how to use P, and can fiddle around trying various passwords for a user, then look up their channel access on the NG website to see where to join.
Should they gain access to that persons password. However, keep in mind that hijacking someone else's account is likely to get you g-lined on NetGamers, which is slightly worse than getting g-lined off a hostile alliance server.

Quote:
Private services can be made more cryptic and limit what a user sees. Someone breaking into someone elses login wont be able to see which channels they can use, and can be spotted by suspicious behaviour (such as not joining their gal chan).
Security through obscurity is hardly something to brag about. Most everything in P is hideable if your account is configured correctly. It's easy for a recruit officer to instruct a person how to correctly configure their P account to conform with the alliance standard.

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Unread 8 May 2003, 21:03   #68
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Hicks prove me wrong then... Intead of says im wrong, please prove it, othwise its rumours and hearsay.
So the rumours were all started due to a poor and badly put together English Pop Act???

- Sorry couldnt resist it :P
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Unread 8 May 2003, 21:42   #69
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Unlike the Netgamers network, all the mods on this forum can, and do, read your private messages.

Think about that!
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Unread 8 May 2003, 22:09   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
That's bull****, there are a plethora of new security issues that arise when you move alliance IRC off a network like NG.

This tactic is normally known as FUD. Fact is that the NG admins are more reliable than your average alliance techie because they have to conform to public and peer review on a daily basis. On the other hand, your average powermad 15-50 year old alliance techie is just as likely to be a freedom loving gimp as a totalitarian fascist who wants to know your every thoughts. Most alliance techies use ircds that allow much more control (the aforementioned +I and viewing of +s channels, not to mention ircds running in debug, allowing recording of all PMs and so on...).

Jester
On a private server an attack channel will prolly not be closed because it has too many ppl in it...
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Unread 8 May 2003, 23:05   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chef!
So the rumours were all started due to a poor and badly put together English Pop Act???

- Sorry couldnt resist it :P
You don't own a dictionary, do you?

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Unread 8 May 2003, 23:07   #72
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Originally posted by Saitam
On a private server an attack channel will prolly not be closed because it has too many ppl in it...
Um. Sort of like that WP attack channel that was published in the #vts topic the other day? Real secure!

The last time I played 'professionally' on PAnet we used keyed channels with keys given out in the private channel. Or keys given out by the BC directly to interested people.

Note that while I'm defending NetGamers, I'm not saying there isn't a point to having a private server. Poma asked for pros and cons, and in general the community is horribly biased towards private servers and imo, needs a devil's advocate.

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Unread 9 May 2003, 02:51   #73
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I did ask for Pro's and Con's and this thread now has a BOATLOAD of them. Especially from you Jester, thx.

One of the few remaining points not brought up yet would be all the various illegal software people use to secure their private servers, both custom made software and downloadeable programs as well.

I've heard of a program called BlackIce(?) or something that counter atatcks anyone attacking the server it's hosted on. I imagine there is other software too that notices and acknowledges an attack on itself and immediately seals it's ports off and counterattacks from an entirely different source.

I'm not expecting people to start flooding this thread with all their crafty secrets and personal trademarks towards protecting their IRC server, though I imagine a few of you have some knowledge of some programs available on the market
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Unread 9 May 2003, 11:32   #74
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Originally posted by KoRnNut
One of the few remaining points not brought up yet would be all the various illegal software people use to secure their private servers, both custom made software and downloadeable programs as well.
Never heard of any illegal 'revengeware'. I'm sure it exists, but its use is illegal and usually a bit pointless. What's the point of throwing packets at a dummy?


Quote:
I imagine there is other software too that notices and acknowledges an attack on itself and immediately seals it's ports off and counterattacks from an entirely different source.
No knowledge about stuff that does the latter. However, programs such as portsentry can seal off attackers reactively. We used it for a short period when the Eclipse had a dedicated server hosted somewhere. It sat behind a firewall that also ran portsentry. So if anyone tried to portscan our box for vulnerabillities, they'd probably have their IP blocked.

Quote:
I'm not expecting people to start flooding this thread with all their crafty secrets and personal trademarks towards protecting their IRC server, though I imagine a few of you have some knowledge of some programs available on the market
I strongly recommend against programs that stoop to the levels of the attackers. It's not every eye for an eye, but more like handbag for a handbag.

Generally the level of proficiency for PA techs isn't terribly high. Coding IRC or web resources is very easy with modern programming languages. I suppose some of them could have created hostile countermeasures in case of DDoS or similar behavior, but I doubt many people are in a position to use this (you'd have to own the line the server was hosted on as well as owning the server, a bit like Pileke and the old late r4 nos server).

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Unread 9 May 2003, 13:48   #75
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[i wrote a long reply. took long enough for the cookie/ session to expire. in a brief summary: ]

i know enough to recognize i don't know enough to go about offering a secured ircd server and services to an alliance, or to 'approve' the work of another.

The potential exists for a private server to offer all those desirable modifications and features that an alliance might want. Typically I think we can agree the general implementation of either ircd, host or configuration doesn't meet what might be considered secure criteria.

Looking at the netgamers network this security criteria should be met. the processes which ensure it are (public) review by a team of expert peers. Both of work undertaken and design.

For an alliance going alone this trust is placed in (typically) one person running an ircd.

What can be done to resolve the scenario in which alliances desire that individual element of control?

1. Community Development of an ircd/ services/ web interface for deployment by alliance X

2. Development of 'elevated privileges' bot and interface for the netgamers network.

Looking at the two options and considering #1 briefly - it still leaves holes for isp / host / server configuration. but moves security back into review by the public peer group. would an alliance or individual privileged by an alliance sacrifice the advantage this knowledge /capability gives them.

option 2 .. an interesting thought? It costs significant sums of money for bandwidth alone to host an ircd, services, web.
I'd be more than willing to pay for this feature. But what would i expect to get from it? Biggest hurdle - would alliances accept its advantages and be prepared to use it?

An 'elevated privileges bot' - I consider this an alliance-friendly layer or gateway if you will to P service, though existing as a separate alliance-specific entity.
Alliances are going to require a list of features. Consultation springs to mind. I'd expect a group rather than an individual to register channels. visibility of proper hosts (-x) to admin level just for users on our channels (which ofc we want to monitor). An exposed interface so that our own tools can integrate and automate processes such as monitoring /user addition /subtraction, access and modes. Inclusion of a featured multi-target/channel attack bot. attack/def calls. channel announcements.

Sounds to me as though R10 is doing big things with alliances - it could further add integration of the game with this alliance layer.

In short it would need to offer some of the desired features of private servers to an alliance/HC, an accepted level of security demonstrated to the community, and the stability /convenience of a service.



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Unread 9 May 2003, 13:56   #76
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From what u have just said there, Tyriel, has made me think a bit - the 'alliance' level bot, might be more possible than u think, i have a few ideas, spent some time thinking about the idea on the train yesterday - pm me if u want to suggest anything, but i'll go talk to those in the know/PATeam. See what people think
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Unread 9 May 2003, 14:30   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saitam
On a private server an attack channel will prolly not be closed because it has too many ppl in it...
I presume this is supposed to have happened at NetGamers. Could you please state the facts of exactly what channel was closed when, and why? I know both myself and the network admins would be anxious to hear of any such cases.

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Unread 9 May 2003, 14:44   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
From what u have just said there, Tyriel, has made me think a bit - the 'alliance' level bot, might be more possible than u think, i have a few ideas, spent some time thinking about the idea on the train yesterday - pm me if u want to suggest anything, but i'll go talk to those in the know/PATeam. See what people think
This would need to be some sort of interface to P/ircu. A hulking beast that serves all alliances wouldn't work or be used.

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Unread 9 May 2003, 14:52   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
This would need to be some sort of API to P/ircu. A hulking beast that serves all alliances wouldn't work or be used.

Jester
Not necersarrily, it would require some co-operation from the alliance HC thou - as i said, its an idea, it might never go further.
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Unread 9 May 2003, 15:07   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeekay
I presume this is supposed to have happened at NetGamers. Could you please state the facts of exactly what channel was closed when, and why? I know both myself and the network admins would be anxious to hear of any such cases.

GK
Was thinking on the attack done in rnd5, dont remember who was organising it etc, but it was on a Fury or Legion guy. When too many ppl where in the channel, ircop's arrived closed channel, kicked ppl out of it, to keep servers healthy.
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Unread 9 May 2003, 15:26   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saitam
Was thinking on the attack done in rnd5, dont remember who was organising it etc, but it was on a Fury or Legion guy. When too many ppl where in the channel, ircop's arrived closed channel, kicked ppl out of it, to keep servers healthy.
Ah, seems I misunderstood. In this case the attack channel was being spammed all over the network and generally an annoyance.

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Unread 9 May 2003, 16:01   #82
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Originally posted by Saitam
Was thinking on the attack done in rnd5, dont remember who was organising it etc, but it was on a Fury or Legion guy. When too many ppl where in the channel, ircop's arrived closed channel, kicked ppl out of it, to keep servers healthy.
I actually remember this incident, though it was before my oper days. The reason the channel was closed was because f**kwits were running round the network spamming it everywhere and when opers came to investigate, they were kickbanned from the channel. It had nothing to do with PA politics and certainly nothing to do with keeping servers healthy.
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Unread 9 May 2003, 19:22   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
This would need to be some sort of interface to P/ircu. A hulking beast that serves all alliances wouldn't work or be used.

Jester
Not necersarrily, it would require some co-operation from the alliance HC thou - as i said, its an idea, it might never go further.
To make this useful, and give it features that raise desireability it would need to be the interface to P/ircu that Jester describes. In fact it would need to be seperate and distinct from P - but able to interact with P at a service level. This is the reason i described it as 'elevated priveleges'.

For all intents and purposes those alliances would want it to seem to work 'as a service' in their allocated channels. P doesnt need to be there. They get 'eclipse' or 'tot'. (with two options - members able to login 'thru P' or login directly to this bot)

Your never going to sell a big clunky beast shared between each alliance. My view was you write <alliance_bot_Y> capable of running as a process on a box trusted admins control - and if 10 alliances pay for it .. you run 10 copies of it for them, with their admin control.

MIT - Being realistic, for your own sake, this is NOT something alliances would want PA team near with a barge pole. Jolt could possibly host it being game neutral, or netgamers. Independence is the problem. These issues make it sound more and more unlikely dont they ?
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Unread 10 May 2003, 02:41   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by tyriel

2. Development of 'elevated privileges' bot and interface for the netgamers network.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember the existence of 'Target-Bot', which was integrated with an early version of AH. What happened to this I do not know - I think it was dropped when AH was re-coded for r7 (I think it was r7 anyway).

I suppose it's possible that this could be resurrected somehow, and it would implement some of the features that alliances would want. Coupled with new developments in AH, it could make private servers much less desirable - though with a creative tech department an alliance will always be able to develop better custom tools, the AH/Target-Bot combination should be enough for mainstream alliances to use.
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Unread 10 May 2003, 02:55   #85
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Quote:
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I may be wrong, but I seem to remember the existence of 'Target-Bot', which was integrated with an early version of AH. What happened to this I do not know - I think it was dropped when AH was re-coded for r7 (I think it was r7 anyway).

I suppose it's possible that this could be resurrected somehow, and it would implement some of the features that alliances would want. Coupled with new developments in AH, it could make private servers much less desirable - though with a creative tech department an alliance will always be able to develop better custom tools, the AH/Target-Bot combination should be enough for mainstream alliances to use.
That Target-Bot code i now have, that i'm doing stuff with as we speak hence asking for suggestions etc above
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Unread 11 May 2003, 18:02   #86
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I'm actually a big fan of netgamers IRC for alliance purposes. Ever since Planetarion IRC has stablized, ie net splits aren't rampant, I have seen private servers as a tool for larger alliances only. If your alliance only has about 40 people, of which maybe 30 will be on at a given time, netgamers is a fine locale. As long as you set your channels to +ins, it is for all practical purposes a private server.

Here are the only detriments I see to operating on netgamers exclusively for smaller alliances:

If you catch a spy or someone who has infiltrated your channel, you cannot effectively ip track them, etc.

Sloppy copying/pasting on the part of members can end up in a public channel, instead of one on your private server.

If you find these to be fundamental to the operation of your alliance, then by all means set up a private server. If you really do not care about them, then all a private server does is provide an added hassle for your members, a reliance upon a server that could be DOS'd at horrid times, and a false sense of security.
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Unread 13 May 2003, 01:09   #87
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You've gotten all the reasons for having a private irc server for your alliance. so I'm not realy going to go into that.. except perhaps that no major ally can NOT have one. as now adays. as your not considered "major" unless you have one. (perhaps silly, but you loose some credibility without one).

I Run NoS Net. and it's been under attack most of the round.
once at tick 1 (seemed to be a test as it wasn't a biggy. didn't take down NoS Net. only managed to split it for a few min)

I then had to reconfigure the whole net. getting more servers, and setting out with round robin, and a hub server with a hidden IP.

the weakest part of NoS Net was my own private home server I had linked up to NoS Net. I was DoSed and DoSed and DoSed.
my ISP threatend to close my inet link for good unless it stopped.
as all the ppl on the same switch as me got affected also, so they had to protect their other customers.
and as the attacks where DDoS (seems to have been a Trojan DoS bot net) the attacks came from everywhere. with to many different ip's to block them all one by one. so my ISP closed down my whole link out of the country. in and out.. at first.. then later. I got attacked from ip's in country also. so now. each time I get just a tiny little DoS at me. they close down my whole link in and out. and I hafto beg to get it opened each time.
the other servers in NoS Net has also gotten DoSed but they don't go down for several days like my home link..
they DoSing stopped after I removed my home server from NoS Net. and removed the nos-hq.com domain from it also.

the other servers can deal with it. and I manage to keep NoS Net together most of the time. but against a Trojan DoS botnet there isn't much todo. either try to ride it out. or block the whole link in the switch. blocking the packages at the server doesn't help at all, as the packages are talking with your netcard already. they need to talk to your netcard to get rejected. soo. even if you reject all packages your link is still being used up. and you then get Denial of Service (DoS)(DDoS = Distributed Denial of Service)

and I'm in the prossess of getting a new ip for my home server, as I still get DoSed a little now and then. and because my link has been abused (yer. I get stamped as an abuser cuz I've been DoSed. makes sense? nope!. but that's life) my link get's closed down right away. and I'll hafto wait either a few hours, or a day for it to get opened. if it's a big attack. then I hafto beg to get it oppened.

if it haden't been for my loyalty to Howling Rain (HR)
I would have quit PA, taken all my toys and let NoS play around on NG without a single bot or server full of toys.
and started living a normal life with my GF.
hmm. yer GF.. she actualy was scared cuz of this. she realy didn't like ppl attacking us like this. she was afraid someone could come to our door and hurt us. (she doesn't quite understand everything about inet and things.) the fact that my GF also got scared cuz of this pisses my extra much off.


I've talked to ****load of ppl. and nobody can help me with this.
and nothing mit can say can help either. only way to combat a DDoSer is to have access to your ISP's switch, so you can block out the attacking IP's. most ppl don't have access to that. and the ISP's doesn't bother blocking all incomining ip's, when they only need to block yours. (in effect they are helping the DoSers, making their Denial of Service more effective than they could ever manage them self).

but the bottom line is.
you need a lot of money to get realy good equipment and links. hopefully with access to a main switch.
then you need a team to be ready to punch in ip's to block when the attack starts.
as I've done all that can be done.
so getting a good techy doesn't help, unless you have the money to back that up with good enough equipment/link/access.
I have been talking with someone about creating a new network service working on top of tcp/ip. connecting all members like a distributed net. will slow down things abit, for those unlucky enough to end up connected to the net though someone on a crappy dialup. but irc doesn't need much bandwidth. we would have several irc servers in that net. with hidden ip's. ppl would connect to their own localhost(127.0.0.1) on a spez port. to get on the ally's irc server. the protocol would then connect you the next client in the link. and so on. well.. I'm not going to bore you with the details. we talked for a while about this. it would take a while to explain it all. but. the bottom line is. the ip's for the irc servers would be hidden. and it would be impossible for a spy to find it. it would require all our members to install a proggy on their computers. and it would also slow down the bandwidth to the irc server for some of our members (not realy a problem).

and everybody moving to NG ? what will that solve? they've already DoSed the official Planetarion Tools. why should they leave NetGamers alone? only reason they don't DoS NG now, is cuz there is no point, as all the major allies have their own irc net.
if all ally's moved to NG. the ally doing the DoSing would just hafto have their own "backup" irc net, and move there just before they DoS NetGamers. taking down all the alliances in one blow.

some ppl are braindead. they are risking prison just to win a game. when I finaly catch this person, I WILL press charges. and i WILL see him/her in jail.

I haven't been able to track him down yet. BUT.
if it's a Trojan bot net then I can contract the attacking ip's. inform them of the trojan in their system. then get access to analyze the trojan. find the gathering place for the bot net. then go there to try to catch the mofo.

I haven't started doing this until now. as I thought my ISP was doing something. I just found out. they aren't doing anything.
I'll hafto find him my self. then they will do something.
and as I was DoSed AGAIN last night.
I will go mofo hunting tomorow.
__________________
R2-R3 : n00b
R4 : HR BC
R5-R6 : HR Techie
R7-R11 : HR HC / NoS Head Techie / NoS WC
R12 : Retired <- GF gives ultimatum. PA or Her.
R13 : HR Peon -> BC -> MC (GC of Winning Gal)
R14 : HR HC
R15 : Retired <- GF dumps me cuz of PA.
R16 : HR Peon
R19 : Omen BC
R20-R30 : Retired
R31 : HR Peon

Someone give me a dictionary.
Cuz I don't seem to know what retired means. =/
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Unread 13 May 2003, 01:27   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
Private servers are usually run by someone part time using basic code with minimal modification. Which do you think is more secure?

Private servers are exactly that - private. Not more secure. About the only other thing you can say is you have better control, but thats about it really imo.
humz.. I dunno about the other alliances. but there isn't much left of the "basic code" you talk about.
we started ofc out with a basis. but it has been modifed and modifed again and again. to get it the way to like it and it makes things much much much easier for us. and yes. we can (perhaps we have ) added code to weed out spies. and to save time dealing with new recruits being braindead.
I've been a Techy on Pa Net quite a few rounds ago. and when you hafto deal with normal NG tools, you waste A FRELLING LOT of time on braindead ppl not knowing how to either use irc, or use P or join a chan with a key. etc. etc. etc. the list goes on. I sat hour after hour after hours explaining things.
with a private irc net. we just code things to either be easier to understand. or to have built in explanations to everything.
and if someone still doesn't get it. we find out what it takes for him to understand it right away. and code that in. making sure the next guy like him doesn't ask the same frelling stupid question.
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R2-R3 : n00b
R4 : HR BC
R5-R6 : HR Techie
R7-R11 : HR HC / NoS Head Techie / NoS WC
R12 : Retired <- GF gives ultimatum. PA or Her.
R13 : HR Peon -> BC -> MC (GC of Winning Gal)
R14 : HR HC
R15 : Retired <- GF dumps me cuz of PA.
R16 : HR Peon
R19 : Omen BC
R20-R30 : Retired
R31 : HR Peon

Someone give me a dictionary.
Cuz I don't seem to know what retired means. =/
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Unread 13 May 2003, 02:00   #89
Chaos
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and one more thing you can't do on NetGamers is hide your members ip's with fake hostmasks.

for ppl like f.eks. Dingo. it would be devastating for him to let the "enemy" see his ip. as DoSing one person is simple compared to an irc server. if you have a dialup or in dingo's case. a ****ty satelite link. you wouldn't need more than two ppl on ISDN doing a little ping flooding to DoS him. and then attacking his planet. making him unable to get defence or for his gal m8s to see it until one tick after the attack has started (as gal status doesn't show hostile until the next tick after an attack)

not the best way to attack with DoSing for help. but it would reduse the chance of a good defence for a planet.
if we moved to NG. one simple little spy in the alliance chan would get the HC's ip's and with some good spying get the ip's of the whole gal of the HC. or atleast many of them. then DoSing, then attacking. making it much much easier to make a successful attack. All our Executive use fake hostmasks. and most of our members also
__________________
R2-R3 : n00b
R4 : HR BC
R5-R6 : HR Techie
R7-R11 : HR HC / NoS Head Techie / NoS WC
R12 : Retired <- GF gives ultimatum. PA or Her.
R13 : HR Peon -> BC -> MC (GC of Winning Gal)
R14 : HR HC
R15 : Retired <- GF dumps me cuz of PA.
R16 : HR Peon
R19 : Omen BC
R20-R30 : Retired
R31 : HR Peon

Someone give me a dictionary.
Cuz I don't seem to know what retired means. =/
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Unread 13 May 2003, 13:24   #90
Mit
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chaos
and one more thing you can't do on NetGamers is hide your members ip's with fake hostmasks.
+x - hides and sets ur IP to 127.0.0.1 if i remeber correctly.

As for saying i can't help at all, i have some knowledge - IRCDs should be run on Linux, and u can set up IPTables rules to help combat part of the problem. I can also help try to trace the people.

As for saying about NG not being DoS'd, u'd be supprised, some people out there have a 'thing' against NG.

As for the tools being DoS'd, yes, this is correct - a vunerability in the TCP system which cannot be easily avoided unfortunately.
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Unread 13 May 2003, 14:02   #91
Gayle29uk
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chaos
for ppl like f.eks. Dingo. it would be devastating for him to let the "enemy" see his ip. as DoSing one person is simple compared to an irc server. if you have a dialup or in dingo's case. a ****ty satelite link. you wouldn't need more than two ppl on ISDN doing a little ping flooding to DoS him. and then attacking his planet. making him unable to get defence or for his gal m8s to see it until one tick after the attack has started (as gal status doesn't show hostile until the next tick after an attack)
Or he could, for example, reconnect and get another IP address assigned. Very few of us (even on DSL) have static IPs so there is no point whatsoever using a DoS attack to support a PA attack in this way.
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Unread 13 May 2003, 15:39   #92
Jester
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chaos
and one more thing you can't do on NetGamers is hide your members ip's with fake hostmasks.
First of all, you can (as mentioned) use umode +x to hide your hostmask/ip on NG. If you have a dialup, getting a new IP is no challenge whatsoever. It's much more of an issue for people on static/almost static connections. It is also possible to use bouncers to protect addresses. It's more reliable and has other advantages. Bouncers do cost money, but many people have them anyway these days.

As for people being considered less proffesional due to not having private servers. That's true, but hopefully this thread will do a bit to allieviate that.

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Unread 13 May 2003, 19:28   #93
Saitam
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
First of all, you can (as mentioned) use umode +x to hide your hostmask/ip on NG. If you have a dialup, getting a new IP is no challenge whatsoever. It's much more of an issue for people on static/almost static connections. It is also possible to use bouncers to protect addresses. It's more reliable and has other advantages. Bouncers do cost money, but many people have them anyway these days.

As for people being considered less proffesional due to not having private servers. That's true, but hopefully this thread will do a bit to allieviate that.

Jester
I am curious about that, as +x only shows my ip adress and does not allow me to hide my hostmask or ip, atleast it does not work for me, maybe it does for others...
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Unread 13 May 2003, 22:36   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saitam
I am curious about that, as +x only shows my ip adress and does not allow me to hide my hostmask or ip, atleast it does not work for me, maybe it does for others...
Having already authed with P I do '/mode Jester +x'
Code:
23:34:04 [netgamers] -!- jester.users.netgamers.org is now your hidden host
23:34:05 [netgamers] -!- Mode change [+x] for user Jester
Then '/wii Jester' and get:
Code:
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!- Jester [[email protected]]
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!-  ircname  : Hope you guessed my name
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!-  channels : @## #linux 
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!-  server   : London.UK.Eu.Netgamers.org [Jolt's UK IRC Server]
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!-           : jester
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!- Jester [email protected] 62.179.210.79 Actual user@host, Actual IP
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!-  idle     : 0 days 0 hours 16 mins 11 secs [signon: Wed May  7 21:11:11 2003]
23:34:52 [netgamers] -!- End of WHOIS
My client mangles the 'actual host/ip' line, but it should be reasonably easy to decipher. As one might expect, this is only shown to opers and yourself.

'/userhost jester' and '/userip Jester' show:
Code:
23:37:57 [netgamers] -!- [email protected]
23:38:06 [netgamers] -!- [email protected]
Jester
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Last edited by Jester; 13 May 2003 at 22:51.
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Unread 14 May 2003, 00:23   #95
Chaos
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lol. yer I forgot about that new feature +x
never use it my self. as I've got static ip and can change my hostmask to anything I want. and it's no point in my trying to hide my ip. (as someone obviously already have it)

still. it wouldn't be hard for me to find the real ip of a person.
I'd just set up a bot to poll a nick every sec or so. so when they reconnect. my bot will get his ip right before he's activated the +x
realy simple if I realy wanted to get someones ip. on a private net, probing like that can be coded in things to avoid it. either a warning system that will warn me if someone keeps who'ing someone more than a certain times pr min. or I could code into the ircd that you couldn't whois ppl more than once each min.

or... something even simpler.. just code the ircd to activevate the users fakehost on connect recognizing each dif member by irc server password.

no mather what you do and say.. you can't tell us a private irc net isn't more secure. as you can modify it to suit your every need.
but on NG. you hafto follow a certain standard. that all alliances know. and if a security hole is found. you can't seal it either. just go around it somehow. channel registrations takes time. you need to have supporters. if P goes down. you can't do anything about it. just wait. and hope it comes up soon. and you can't sit and watch everyone that connects to your net. you can't monitor all command and actions going on with the services.
and only way to monitor ppls irc activity would be to code a bot to do the verify command with P to check the persons pnick.
if I know P well enough.. it would just result in P ignoring that bot half of the time claiming it's flooding it. ofc the bot can be coded to queue up the msg's to P. but that could result in a backlogged bot. and at best it would just be a lot of extra work.

no mather what you say.. having a private irc net is:

1. more secure
2. easier to manage
3. more secure.
4. get's things done quicklier
5. more secure.
6. you have more controll over what's going on.
7. more secure.
8. you don't hafto answer to the NG Opers for anything.
__________________
R2-R3 : n00b
R4 : HR BC
R5-R6 : HR Techie
R7-R11 : HR HC / NoS Head Techie / NoS WC
R12 : Retired <- GF gives ultimatum. PA or Her.
R13 : HR Peon -> BC -> MC (GC of Winning Gal)
R14 : HR HC
R15 : Retired <- GF dumps me cuz of PA.
R16 : HR Peon
R19 : Omen BC
R20-R30 : Retired
R31 : HR Peon

Someone give me a dictionary.
Cuz I don't seem to know what retired means. =/

Last edited by Chaos; 14 May 2003 at 00:36.
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Unread 14 May 2003, 11:05   #96
Jester
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chaos
still. it wouldn't be hard for me to find the real ip of a person.
I'd just set up a bot to poll a nick every sec or so. so when they reconnect. my bot will get his ip right before he's activated the +x
It would get it eventually. The more the person disconnects the more often. Let's not forget that if they're disconnected due to ping timeout/peer they're likely to reconnect using a different nick than the one you're polling. It's not a fool proof system, and I've seen private servers breached yielding a much more useful list of hosts.

Quote:
realy simple if I realy wanted to get someones ip. on a private net, probing like that can be coded in things to avoid it. either a warning system that will warn me if someone keeps who'ing someone more than a certain times pr min. or I could code into the ircd that you couldn't whois ppl more than once each min.
On 'good' alliance servers I've used, /who and /whois have been disabled for non-registered clients. On the modified version of ircu Eclipse was using earlier clients gained a false hostmask on connect, so other normal users would never see their real host. Unless of course they did something silly like DCC chat/send something.

Quote:
or... something even simpler.. just code the ircd to activevate the users fakehost on connect recognizing each dif member by irc server password.
That's also a possibility.

Quote:
no mather what you do and say.. you can't tell us a private irc net isn't more secure. as you can modify it to suit your every need.
I find this moronic and blind. Obviously you're having security issues (albeit not directly game related). Though to be honest, I keep seeing this unqualified and can't be assed to argue against it anymore. I hope you enjoy living in La-La Land, in the mean time I'll enjoy my time in the 'Real World' and make my choices based on balanced, wellfounded and educated opinions.

Quote:
but on NG. you hafto follow a certain standard. that all alliances know. and if a security hole is found. you can't seal it either. just go around it somehow.
That quite simply isn't true. If a security hole is founded you can do many things. You can read the source and write a patch, then send the patch to the relevant people. You can alert the relevant people of the issue (http://forum.netgamers.org). You can contact the ircu coder-com people directly (or gnuworld if it's a problem with P).

Quote:
channel registrations takes time. you need to have supporters.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I've seen alliance networks where registering channels took much longer than on NG. Generally, yes, it is more conveniant to be able to register channels on demand, such as one can on a private network. But it's a small thing.

Quote:
if P goes down. you can't do anything about it. just wait. and hope it comes up soon. and you can't sit and watch everyone that connects to your net. you can't monitor all command and actions going on with the services.
You can always set up a seperate bot for the invites... Generally speaking though, it's a long time since P has gone down for more than 30 minutes.

Quote:
and only way to monitor ppls irc activity would be to code a bot to do the verify command with P to check the persons pnick.
if I know P well enough.. it would just result in P ignoring that bot half of the time claiming it's flooding it. ofc the bot can be coded to queue up the msg's to P. but that could result in a backlogged bot. and at best it would just be a lot of extra work.
Please! Educate yourself before you go off on these rants. If you want to keep track of registered nicks, why not just /whois people on join? At worst you'll get a late reply, but you won't flood off unless your bot is stupid

Quote:
no mather what you say.. having a private irc net is:

1. more secure
No, you're more in control. That is not the same as security.
Quote:
2. easier to manage
rofl!
Quote:
3. get's things done quicklier
Possibly. This depends on the techie though. If you've actually paid attention to the suggested and accepted changes to NG then you'd see that they have a good track record on getting quick, necessary changes done promptly.
Quote:
4. you have more controll over what's going on.
Yes. This is one of the advantages.
Quote:
8. you don't hafto answer to the NG Opers for anything.
I've never had to 'answer' to the NG opers for anything. I've never been /kill'ed. So tell me how this is an issue?

You want a list of advantages of using NG?
  • No DoS.
  • Higher channel activity
  • Less likely that alliance techies can get high on power
  • Members rights are better protected (PM logging anyone?)
There is also the possibility of better inter-ally communication if both alliances are situated on NG. There are advantages to having a private network, but it's not an obvious choice.

Jester
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Unread 14 May 2003, 12:15   #97
Fifth_teletubbie
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester

You want a list of advantages of using NG?
  • Higher channel activity


All the reason you need really.

I always *hated* having to log on to two servers, carrying on (often parallel) conversations on two servers etcetera.
Especially if the retarded-techie-with-men-in-black-syndrome thought up 'something new and really cool and really really secure' for the privserver resulting in me _again_ having to reg in a dozen places and change my perform etc etc.

All hail NG. If you really feel you need more security than an invite-only room on NG you are either paranoid or need to work on your recruitment standards.
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Unread 14 May 2003, 14:12   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jester
[b]You can always set up a seperate bot for the invites... Generally speaking though, it's a long time since P has gone down for more than 30 minutes.
bull..

Quote:
Please! Educate yourself before you go off on these rants. If you want to keep track of registered nicks, why not just /whois people on join? At worst you'll get a late reply, but you won't flood off unless your bot is stupid
blarg.. hello ?? keep record from nicks? lol. .yer. great system.
like everybody uses the same nick all the time. ppl with many cute away nick. or somthing-CS nicks. etc.
f.eks. users nick is Lollypop , one day he joins the chan as LolpopMAD . the bot wouldn't recognize him. completely stupid idea. don't go around being that ****y and then spew out stupid ideas.

Quote:
No, you're more in control. That is not the same as security.
lol. ofc it is.

Quote:
  • No DoS.
  • Higher channel activity
  • Less likely that alliance techies can get high on power
  • Members rights are better protected (PM logging anyone?)
No DoS ? a few posts ago someone said NG has it's shares of DoSes also.
and even if it doesn't it's got way more splits that NoS Net has.
yes they only last a few min. but still. it's annoying.

Higher Channel activity?
so you claim that ppl would chat more in the alliance chan if it was on NG ? why? with multi server clients it's not realy a problem for ppl to connect to another server. or to chat on it.
we've got no problems with ppl not chatting..

Techies high on power? uhmz.. I'm the only friggin Techy NoS's got left. I fired the rest of them. and only two other have Ircop rights. and they are HC's. and I've never abused my oper rights.
infact when I do use /kill to kick a spy or something off the net. then It only takes a few min until I get questions from the other opers why I did that. as all opers get noticed about everything that happens. even if we did feel like abusing our oper rights. we would hafto answer to the other opers. I've used the /kill three times since round 6.

member right protected? wtf are you talking about?
I don't monitor PM's. if I realy wanted to I prob could.
but most ircd admins couldn't as they don't have the skills.
unless they where running unreal ircd. it's got a cute little mode for opers to spy with. we use a modifed version of ircu.

and I don't think our members are worried about us abusing our powers. they would rather we abuse it if that ment we got rid of spies. and the enemy didn't get their coords.

now.. please stop attacking me personly. and being rude to me.
I haven't been rude to you until this msg.
__________________
R2-R3 : n00b
R4 : HR BC
R5-R6 : HR Techie
R7-R11 : HR HC / NoS Head Techie / NoS WC
R12 : Retired <- GF gives ultimatum. PA or Her.
R13 : HR Peon -> BC -> MC (GC of Winning Gal)
R14 : HR HC
R15 : Retired <- GF dumps me cuz of PA.
R16 : HR Peon
R19 : Omen BC
R20-R30 : Retired
R31 : HR Peon

Someone give me a dictionary.
Cuz I don't seem to know what retired means. =/
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Unread 14 May 2003, 16:13   #99
Mit
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Jester/Chaos : P went down for near 17hrs a month or so back, that was a ONE OFF insident, it shouldn't go down for more than 10 mins now.

Chaos,

/whois

Mit is [email protected] * Tim
Mit on Lots of channels
Mit using qnps.tx.us.netgamers.org QNPS NetGamers Server
Mit is logged in as Mit
Mit has been idle 2mins 28secs, signed on Fri May 09 23:13:23
Mit End of /WHOIS list.

There, process that and take out the 'Mit is logged in as Mit' bit - that shows u the persons P nick. they can't join a +i channel without being logged into P or an op abusing access etc. Thus thats enough to track.



There are a lot of reasons for and against alliances having their own servers, namely control and the fact they can hide hostmasks (Which can now be done on Netgamers). Perhaps, if the alliances weren't happy about X.Users.NetGamers.Org hosts, they could discuss and see if anything more customisable be done.
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Unread 14 May 2003, 17:06   #100
Jester
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chaos
bull..
Correct, as Mit pointed out.

Quote:
blarg.. hello ?? keep record from nicks? lol. .yer. great system.
Again, please educate yourself! Mit pointed out the raw that includes the registered Pnick sent by ircu (MAKE A NOTE, IT'S SENT BY IRCU) on whois.
Quote:
lol. ofc it is.
Yes and no. The most pointed advantage of control is quite simply logging. Being able to mix and match IPs. Unfortunately I find that this tends to lead to very many false positives.

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No DoS ? a few posts ago someone said NG has it's shares of DoSes also.
and even if it doesn't it's got way more splits that NoS Net has.
What's the point of DoSing NG if all alliances use it? More to the point, if you want your alliance members not to DoS NG, just move your alliance channels there.

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yes they only last a few min. but still. it's annoying.
This was addressed in a previous post. Just ask your members to connect to the same server.

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Higher Channel activity?
so you claim that ppl would chat more in the alliance chan if it was on NG ? why? with multi server clients it's not realy a problem for ppl to connect to another server. or to chat on it.
we've got no problems with ppl not chatting..
Perhaps I should've been more precise. By higher channel activity, I meant more people in the channel. If you want proof, ask Dingo about how activity fell when nos moved from PAnet to a private server in r4.

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Techies high on power? uhmz.. I'm the only friggin Techy NoS's got left. I fired the rest of them. and only two other have Ircop rights. and they are HC's. and I've never abused my oper rights.
Ask Dingo about Pilleke.

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infact when I do use /kill to kick a spy or something off the net. then It only takes a few min until I get questions from the other opers why I did that. as all opers get noticed about everything that happens. even if we did feel like abusing our oper rights. we would hafto answer to the other opers. I've used the /kill three times since round 6.
Doesn't really sound like you guys need IRCops...

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member right protected? wtf are you talking about?
I don't monitor PM's. if I realy wanted to I prob could.
but most ircd admins couldn't as they don't have the skills.
unless they where running unreal ircd. it's got a cute little mode for opers to spy with. we use a modifed version of ircu.
You're not the only alliance techie in existance. I'd point out the most flagrant example, but it would probably lead to a flamewar with others.

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and I don't think our members are worried about us abusing our powers. they would rather we abuse it if that ment we got rid of spies. and the enemy didn't get their coords.
I'm sure they appreciate it. I've often had to question the people running tech for my alliances. Keep in mind that the power you wield can also be used against you. This isn't a huge point, but it's been done before. Hostile intel having IRCop on your server is not cool.

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now.. please stop attacking me personly. and being rude to me.
It's hard when you're being such a ****ing retard.
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I haven't been rude to you until this msg.
Not intentionally, but you have been arrogant, condescending and generally insulted my intelligence*.

Jester

* Nothing wrong with this, just pointing it out.
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