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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:31   #51
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Have you done any recruitment before? I'm not entirely sure how a large company would filter down 1000s of application forms to even 100 or so, from completely qualititative data.


"Essential Criteria Application Forms" (i can't remember the correct term off hand)- They're what get used in my work (and i suspect the rest of the civil service). Basically they're "Give us an example, including outcome, of a time you met the specific criteria". So for each job you'd have say 4 criteria that need to be met.

As a specific example the criteria for a job i recently applied for were:

* Capable of fostering good working relationships within all departments within the Glasgow office.

* Good report drafting skills and working knowledge of using Microsoft applications, in particular Word and Excel to provide descriptive reports and statistical information

* Capable of coping under pressure and ensuring information is obtained and reported accurately within set deadlines

* Ability to act on own initiative with limited supervision

So i wrote down my answer using specific events (not academic achievement).

By using this approach you can tell if a person actually has the required experience to do a job rather than "Have you revised for exams in the past". Personally i think this way is probably better and that's from the person with probably one of the best academic records in my office.

As to the number's question ... There was recently recruitment for Interviewing Officers for the ABI project. 40,000 applications were received for approximately 600 jobs. So ...
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:32   #52
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
I never made that point, but I see what you're getting at. Jer agrees with me though, and he's one of the only people on these forums who is still a secondary school student. I'm sure Kila would also agree with me, too. Surely the three people with real life present day experience of this all agreeing has a bit more logic behind it than theories proposed by guys who haven't been in school for 5+ years?

Strawman fallacy. The argument remains, regardless of the age group we're discussing.
Hey guys lets ignore the parts of the argument that show that we're wrong and just go on like nothing happened ok
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:47   #53
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I do agree; I don't like the system as it is either (especially the need to continually quantify pupil's progress against each other and a set standard). Yet what Dante/nod are proposing is simply unrealistic and overly dramatic.

The best way to get children to learn is to adapt the skills they NEED to know into areas they enjoy. for example, I teach ICT, so a skill might be "understand cell referencing in a spreadsheet". I could just tell them to do it and give them a worksheet, but that's incredibly dull and they wouldn't enjoy it; so therefore wouldn't learn from it. Instead, if I got them to create a template of the Premier League table and input the scores from the weekend, then create formula around it, they could see how/why it works.

That's for ICT though - it isn't that hard to get them to enjoy the work as most kids enjoy using computers. Something like maths or english is probably more difficult to teach to children who simply don't enjoy reading/language or doing maths.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 14:48   #54
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Surely the three people with real life present day experience of this all agreeing has a bit more logic behind it than theories proposed by guys who haven't been in school for 5+ years?
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DuelingCredentials

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IfYouDontLike...ntUnderstandIt

I just thought I'd throw these in there.

More officially http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AdVerecundiam

Man, imagine how much better the world would be if they taught how to recognise logical fallacies in school
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 14 Aug 2007 at 14:56.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 15:21   #55
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I'd like a quite a few years dedicated to the subject of learning.

In secondary school and sixth form I only did well at computer science, mainly because my intelligence seems naturally geared in a logical way that aides my understanding of programming constructs. However, at that stage, I lacked in others areas. This wasn't a huge problem because you generally choose what you're good at and neglect everything else post 18. You can survive.

However later, when I decided that I wanted to branch out in life, I found myself wanting in other areas and started looking at improving those areas. But I think most people do not do this because they assume if they can't do something it ends there - no possibility of self-improvement. But as I'm a contrary arsehole I decided that I'd find out why I couldn't do something (what fundamental skills I lacked) and construct ways enable me to do it (games that would allow assessed incremental improvement).

So I'd like two things: 1) To introduce the art of introspection. This would allows students to concentrate more on improving their skills in that area rather than competing and often failing to understand something at a set level. The latter obviously reinforces disaffection with a subject. 2) To assess children on how much they've improved and compare children based on that improvement (if you're still dubiously aching to compare, that is). Of course there would be a set level of understanding needed, but I would not emphasize marks in relation to that. And if the student still doesn't improve introduce another round of introspection.

I'd also like to emphasize to children from an early age that it's not important that someone learns something at a faster rate than someone else, because people are naturally good at different things, but that it's important that someone learns how to understand their weaknesses and improve them. Therefore if a student does not complete a stage of education or learning a subject at the same rate of everyone else it won't make them hate the subject because they're concentrating on themselves not others.

Your intelligence is relative to yourself at a previous time, instead of someone else, who is more or less irrelevant really.

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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:17   #56
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DuelingCredentials

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IfYouDontLike...ntUnderstandIt

I just thought I'd throw these in there.

More officially http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AdVerecundiam

Man, imagine how much better the world would be if they taught how to recognise logical fallacies in school
Don't be so silly. I never once said that I was an authority on the subject. I just stated my (educated) opinion.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:19   #57
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Bias by proximity vs rose tinted glasses. Who will win? Who will care? Maybe we should judge arguments based on their merits! If it won't work in your opinion you should give a list of reasons as to why it won't work and how this situation comes about realistically.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:20   #58
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Yeah maybe it'd be better if we all had discussions without using any experience or credentials to back us up. Hypotheses are more fun than actual examples of real life, after all!
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:34   #59
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Yeah maybe it'd be better if we all had discussions without using any experience or credentials to back us up. Hypotheses are more fun than actual examples of real life, after all!
Stop being a gay you fag. You do this all the ****ing time and it makes me dispair as you actually seem to believe you're in the right.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:38   #60
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

The awesome disregard you've displayed for logic here is really quite astounding tk. You do realise you should give examples and reasons based on your experiences. You're actually exactly following the argumentum ad verecundiam to the letter. Would you like to argue with logic?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:50   #61
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I'd like a cuddle.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:55   #62
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

/me gives Hebdomad a cuddle.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:32   #63
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You do realise you should give examples and reasons based on your experiences.
The simple fact that sanctions (eg: detention, litterpicking, suspension from school and eventually exclusions) exist in 99% of schools in the UK should be evidence enough that kids don't like learning and would rather mess about.

Or maybe I could tell you about a few anecdotes from the charming school I teach at. Like how the entire Senior Leadership Team had to cancel early morning assembly one morning to head into town to hunt down a boy who had tried to stab another one and narrowly missed. The boy then came sauntering into school.

Or maybe how on the second day I was there, I heard a tale from another teacher about how 3 boys came into her classroom while she was teaching, and proceeded to throw a boy off his chair and beat the crap out of him while she stood there helplessly.

Or perhaps how, on my second week there, I had a class of year 10s who literally were throwing textbooks at each other, and then eventually out of the window until I had one of the decent pupils fetch SLT (which took about 40 minutes as there were OTHER incidents in the school) to remove them from the classroom.

Or maybe the many times I have been sworn at, shouted at, and generally made it incredibly clear that the kids would rather be messing about on bebo or on their phones than be learning?

Those were just off the top of my head. I could tell you about the teacher having to literally place a pupil in a bin, or me having to wrench a year 7 boy off another one to stop him running in my class and punching him in the face, or having my voice almost destroyed at the end of a day from having to raise my voice to get a class to shut the **** up.

The fact that there's an entire disciplinary procedure for "what to do if kids repeatedly get their phones out and play music on them/text message/PHONE PEOPLE in the middle of lessons" should be enough to tell me that they'd rather treat schools as a big social place than somewhere to be educated. I'd hope it would for you too, but hey I expect I'm using my "authority" on the subject here so it must obviously make my entire opinion/argument null and void

But hey. I'm sure if we put them all in a big classroom and left them to their own devices, they'd all happily educate themselves and learn at their own pace
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:38   #64
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Also some points against nod's initial statement:

1. How exactly are you planning on "segregating classes"? Do you not think that's already done? The simple fact is that there aren't enough teachers to segregate them. The average class size in the UK is something like 27.

2. You can't teach kids objectivity/subjectivity. Theyr'e terrible at holding discussions like that and seeing someone else's point of view. That's why I said "reasoned discussions" should be taught.

3. While you might think maths is "beautiful", not everyone else does. I expect lots of kids would love to teach you how to play football well, as they regard it as brilliant, but that doesn't mean it should be made into a subject to be done at school. You also said that "useless subjects shouldn't be taught" - so why are you saying everyone should learn Higher Maths?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:39   #65
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
if you're only reffering to severe ADHD gays then ok (because our system fails them anyway or whatever), but what about kids who would be getting qualifications if they were "forced" to, but instead play football all day simply because they can?
Oh they don't exist horn. Every child wants to learn and will learn if you give them a chance. The majority of them won't choose "football" if that's one of the options for their daily curriculum. True story
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:44   #66
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

After overcoming the feeling of 'OMG I' reading The Sun!' I realised that TK must teach in a really shit school.

Anecdotal evidence alone is about as worthwhile as the stories in the tabloids about Johnny Foreigner killing a young Arian girl are a reason to stop immigration.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:16   #67
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Anecdotal evidence alone is about as worthwhile as the stories in the tabloids about Johnny Foreigner killing a young Arian girl are a reason to stop immigration.
Sorry, what evidence would you accept, that for the most part kids simply aren't mature enough to learn independently with only limited guidance?

Oh maybe I could tell you about DiDA. That's a relatively new ICT course for GCSE. 100 or so schools joined the exam board (including mine). The essential premise was what is being proposed here; that kids do the work using a website as a guide and with a bit of help from the teacher as and when they needed it.

40% of schools dropped out of the course last year, and a further 20% did this year. The simple reason is that it was too difficult to teach. It worked brilliantly for the few children who DID work independently and could follow the instructions then work on their own. The others who were left to their own devices (not just in my school, in most of the others that did as the course suggested and guided rather than controlled) did the "fun" stuff first and then didn't bother with the "hard" stuff (databases, spreadsheets etc). This happened nationwide. It simply didn't work because that isn't how children want to learn*.


*presently, in this country, at this moment in time, with this mode of teaching.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:20   #68
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Again, that's not really disagreeing with the notion that this is a social issue largely brought on by the way schooling in this country has been run, unless 7 year olds are the ones taking GCSE IT nowadays. It's describing a symptom, certainly, but it is not inconsistent and by some interpretations would be supportive of the hypotheses you are arguing against.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:24   #69
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I assumed we were talking about secondary schools, as did nearly everyone else in the thread. Noone mentioned primary school or pre-school. I also assumed we were talking about present day schooling, as noone had said otherwise. Silly old ceteris parabus. What an absurd notion!
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:30   #70
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Noone mentioned primary school or pre-school.
Well, except nod and dante. As I pointed out to you previously. And you made a reply which showed you accepted that as true, although you also claimed it was irrelevent.

If we're going to keep on going round in circles, I don't really see the point of continuing, do you?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:47   #71
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Sorry, what evidence would you accept, that for the most part kids simply aren't mature enough to learn independently with only limited guidance?

It simply didn't work because that isn't how children want to learn*.
This is why the systems being advocated essentially start from birth rather than when all love of knowledge has been killed off.

Your point may be valid and children may never want to learn however they're brought up but I find this depressing and we may as well just launch the nukes and let another species have a go.

But the fact remains your argument (through limited example) is still invalid.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:57   #72
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Kill the parents and try again?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:04   #73
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
But hey. I'm sure if we put them all in a big classroom and left them to their own devices, they'd all happily educate themselves and learn at their own pace
Why do you think they act like this then? Do you think it's genetically linked to being a teenager? Do you think that if it's environmental it's an acceptable situation to find ourselves in?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:13   #74
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

for those of you advocating the daily mail line of "teach them how to get jobs" please don't.

There is something called 'competencies'. When assessing a future employee you balance competencies and education. Competencies can not be taught; they are innate. Schools aexist to provide the education part.

Getting THE job requires both. Getting A job only needs one and as competencies can not be taught you give children a better working future by focusing on educating them ... like we do already ... oh goodness ... look ... what we do now isn't actually that bad ... sure it could be improved ... but it shouldn't be replaced ... my my .... Gordon is wrong after all.

How strange.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:16   #75
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'd say it's partly genetically linked to being a teenager but probably more to do with the genetics of being human. let's not forget that kids aren't the only ones who don't like learning, there are plenty of adults too \o/ (by more i'm not saying all)
and if by acceptable you mean not bad enough to merit an experiment that could essentially leave britain with a generation of completely untrained adults who don't have anything in the way of standardized qualifications then, personally, i would consider it so, yeah.
Do you think we are destined forever to be constrained by our genes? Why can some people enjoy learning?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 23:37   #76
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Have you done any recruitment before?
Yeah, a few times over the last couple of years. In fact a little over a week ago I was involved in an interview panel and selection process for a position. One of the applicants mentioned on-line gaming as an example of team work. (I hoped it was PA and they were going to be awesome, but it wasn't and they weren't ) And I had the dubious pleasure last month of having to undertake the recruitment process from start to finish for new positions created within the section of the business I work in. From writing the incredibly shitty job advert (which was on the Guardian Website and everything!!) to short-listing, doing the interviews and finally making the decision on who was appointed. It was all very, very boring.
Quote:
I'm not entirely sure how a large company would filter down 1000s of application forms to even 100 or so, from completely qualititative data.
Large companies which regularly receive thousands of application forms have HR departments designed to do such things. And if you're looking for ways of easily categorising people you simply make them fill out an application form so you can easily sort people by their level of experience (for instance). To be honest, if the job is in anyway worthwhile you just get your admin officer to read through them all and pass up the strongest x%

Quote:
The sad truth is that most kids would choose David Beckham Studies or Beauty Therapy as they simply aren't mature enough emotionally, mentally or educationally to be able to sit down and work independently.
There's nothing wrong with studying David Beckham Studies.

Quote:
But it wouldn't change overnight anyway, and with your method of "leave them to it", you'd end up with a bunch of self-centred degenerates.
Have you seen modern Britain lately?

Anyway, I explicitly said such a move would be phased in over time. People's behaviour now is influenced by the environment they find themselves in - we're all in agreement here otherwise we wouldn't care about education in any case. I'm suggesting one of the causes of the behavioural patterns might be the education system we currently have. Yes, if you said to kids "Hey you don't have to go to school tomorrow if you don't want" then I'm guessing the vast majority wouldn't go. I know I wouldn't have at the time. But that's because I viewed school as a prison sentence to be endured, not an experience to be treasured.

The likely effects of sudden changes in policy is not a useful indicator on whether the policy themselves are good and bad. Someone who suddenly stops taking heroin may well suffer horrifically, but that does not mean that taking heroin is necessarily good for one's health.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 08:54   #77
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
suggestions made in this thread would produce even worse results in regards to how our society works. i.e. our employers want people with standardized qualifications
I really don't get this reasoning. Why do you think society would be worse off only because kids don't get comparable grades in school? Is it just because employers have one less way of easily sorting people? Surely this wouldn't make that large an impact to counteract possible positive developments in general attitude and/or skills in students.

Tomkat, some of the stuff you say sounds really bitter and just the fact that you have already experienced so many shitty stuff in your short time as teacher might be a sign that there's something wrong and some change might be needed. As Dante said, not extreme overnight but gradually changing stuff starting with the youngest children.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 14:59   #78
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I assumed we were talking about secondary schools, as did nearly everyone else in the thread. Noone mentioned primary school or pre-school. I also assumed we were talking about present day schooling, as noone had said otherwise. Silly old ceteris parabus. What an absurd notion!
I was speaking about the education system as a whole, not just the secondary school system, and I assumed nod and dante were doing the same because of their kind of suggestions that involved a sea-change in how people see and interact with education which was a stupid thing to think really because threads never move onto slightly different topics, especially not ones in which nod posts.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 15:11   #79
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Tomkat, some of the stuff you say sounds really bitter
Not really - I chose to continue at this school (I was only on long-term supply work there before) as I actually really enjoy it there. A difficult school is much more enriching to teach in, as you can actually improve things there. A school that's already doing really well is hard to improve and you just become another cog in the machinery, grinding out decent grades.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 15:22   #80
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
and you just become another cog in the machinery, grinding out decent grades.
Wait, what the hell do you support?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 17:17   #81
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Wait, what the hell do you support?
I never said I disagreed with the nod/dante argument of inspiring kids and getting them to work without being pushed. I hate the idea of quantifying every child in terms of reports/grades. I just think that education as a whole would be difficult to run without it.

The main problem seems to be giving children (teenagers, especially) work that essentially is dull as shit, and doesn't seem relevant to everyday life at all. Who cares about the Periodic Table? Who cares about the quadratic equation? Who cares what the underlying themes in Macbeth are? If there was a way of adapting all areas of the curriculum to something teens enjoy, then it'd make learning a lot more relevant for them.

I had to cover a Science lesson once and they were doing the Electromagnetic Spectrum. It essentially was just doing work from a textbook, but I tried to explain to them using a mobile phone as an example; how bluetooth was in one place on the spectrum, while infra-red was another, and chatting on their phone was another. It interested them for 5 minutes. I'm not a Science teacher and my knowledge of it is very limited, but you get the idea.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 17:21   #82
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Who cares about the quadratic equation? Who cares what the underlying themes in Macbeth are? If there was a way of adapting all areas of the curriculum to something teens enjoy, then it'd make learning a lot more relevant for them.
How about putting all of Shakespheres characters in the Big Brother house?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 18:28   #83
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I don't think it's an either or kind of thing where you need to appeal to the lowest common denominator to get kids interested. People can become interested in science or maths or whatever at various points, although it rarely happened in my experience until the last couple of years of school. Some sort of reward based system, like you know if you do this type of maths it'll help you in x,y,z areas and you can get a,b,c jobs better and get into certain college courses easier, and an understanding of this at a young age would be helpful. Sometimes just forcing people to do shit they hate is just beyond counter-productive and certain classes that are disliked spill over into a general dislike of school.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:27   #84
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
How about putting all of Shakespheres characters in the Big Brother house?
I know this is a joke, but that's the kind of ridiculous thing that probably would work. Children are shit and so is their taste in TV/music/film/life.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:30   #85
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Some sort of reward based system, like you know if you do this type of maths it'll help you in x,y,z areas and you can get a,b,c jobs better and get into certain college courses easier, and an understanding of this at a young age would be helpful.
How can you explain this to kids though? I mean I teach them how to use Excel from year 7 and it's entirely useless and ****ing dull to them at that age. I've tried to explain that it's actually really useful (when confronted with "siiiiiir, this is so boring, why can't we use Flash or Fireworks again??"), especially when they come to doing coursework at GCSE+. Kids are very narrow minded and quite egocentric, and can't think beyond the next month or so, let alone 5 years in the future* though.


*again generalising, but you get the idea.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:30   #86
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

There are different ways of doing this. For example that romeo and juliet thing with di caprio was quite well done. I'd say it's more the exception than the norm that it works out well though.

Edit: To second post, I'm not entirely sure. A reward based scheme within the classroom seems like the kind of step that could work in the short-term? In the long run we're obviously looking at deep societal change though.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:36   #87
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

The problem is a large number of children are already decided upon 'working in a factory' before they've even taken their GCSEs.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:40   #88
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

As I get older I rely more and more on Shakespeare, particularly at funerals or in bad times.

There is no argument on earth that could ever make me deny shakespeare to children.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 20:28   #89
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
As I get older I rely more and more on Shakespeare, particularly at funerals or in bad times.

There is no argument on earth that could ever make me deny shakespeare to children.

What if it turned out Shakespeare was a paedophile?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:10   #90
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
How can you explain this to kids though? I mean I teach them how to use Excel from year 7 and it's entirely useless and ****ing dull to them at that age.
Sitting down and trying to force someone to learn something like Excel is an utterly absurd exercise. If they're not interested - why bother? I find it difficult to believe that many people will learn despite their own willpower. As Nod mentions - not many people retain much of their French/German GCSEs - despite the fact most us spent at least a couple of hours a week for three or four years on the subject.

Technical skills can be difficult to absorb out of context for some though. I know how to use Excel because in some limited circumstances it's the best tool for the job. And the problems I have to solve are real ones with real outcomes. Again, everyone is different (the main reason why we shouldn't force everyone into the same round category) but I find it very difficult to learn things otherwise.

Additionally, kids are right to question how useful something really will be (if that's how it's bieng sold to them). Some of your kids may be ten years from their first proper jobs. The spreadsheet may have experienced dramatic changes by them. Some of them will never have to use Excel-type programs because they'll be persuing career paths which don't require it. For the ones who are really going to be doing IT-heavy jobs, they'll probably have to spend quite a while unlearning how the nonsense and bad practice you'll be putting into their heads because it's convenient (and otherwise, the other 80% of the class won't "get it").
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:37   #91
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Sitting down and trying to force someone to learn something like Excel is an utterly absurd exercise. If they're not interested - why bother? I find it difficult to believe that many people will learn despite their own willpower.
If they aren't made aware of Excel and its capabilities, how will they know that they could/should use it? You can't just wave your hand vaguely at the different software on offer and expect them to pick it up and use it as and when they need to, without showing them what it does.

We teach them at that age because it's immensely useful for nearly all coursework at GCSE/A-level. Also it's not really absurd seeing as most office jobs require you to use it at some level
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:42   #92
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Teaching Excel is a perfect example of what you shouldnt be doing in schools anyway. The correct way to go down that route would be teach students how to think about both data and programming, and then learning Excel in the future wont be particularly difficult. Using an Excel as an introduction to programming principles is a terrible idea.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:46   #93
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
We teach them at that age because it's immensely useful for nearly all coursework at GCSE/A-level. Also it's not really absurd seeing as most office jobs require you to use it at some level
Your students stabs each other. Something tells me they won't be in an office environment.*

*unless, of course they are robbing the place
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:47   #94
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

The problem you* seem to be stating is that school doesn't teach you any useful skills which you may use in your future job. However, this is a silly statement as there are countless jobs out there, with completely different requirements. School equips you to deal with the world, not with getting a job. While some children might only benefit from "Shopkeeper Studies" and "How to have 5 children and keep your figure" as that's all they might ever be, you have to try and accommodate EVERY child into this.

At a very very very basic level, how a child performs in school (across the entire curriculum) is based on how naturally sharp they are (I hesitate to use the word "intelligent" as I don't like it) and how well they pick up new concepts, and then how hard-working they are. Sure, memorising the insanely dull facts for GCSEs does seem completely pointless, but it is just HARD WORK. Those pupils that have the motivation to do this are likely to be the ones who excel in the future because they will have the motivation to work harder elsewhere in life. Of course there will be exceptions, but for the most part this is true.

*dante, nod, jakiri, etc
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:52   #95
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
The problem you* seem to be stating is that school doesn't teach you any useful skills which you may use in your future job. However, this is a silly statement as there are countless jobs out there, with completely different requirements. School equips you to deal with the world, not with getting a job. While some children might only benefit from "Shopkeeper Studies" and "How to have 5 children and keep your figure" as that's all they might ever be, you have to try and accommodate EVERY child into this.

At a very very very basic level, how a child performs in school is based on how naturally sharp they are (I hesitate to use the word "intelligent" as I don't like it) and how well they pick up new concepts, and then how hard-working they are. Sure, memorising the insanely dull facts for GCSEs does seem completely pointless, but it is just HARD WORK. Those pupils that have the motivation to do this are likely to be the ones who excel in life because they will have the motivation to work harder elsewhere in life. Of course there will be exceptions, but for the most part this is true.

*dante, nod, jakiri, etc
are you some kind of idiot?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:53   #96
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Teaching Excel is a perfect example of what you shouldnt be doing in schools anyway. The correct way to go down that route would be teach students how to think about both data and programming, and then learning Excel in the future wont be particularly difficult. Using an Excel as an introduction to programming principles is a terrible idea.
We don't use Excel as an introduction to programming principles, we use it as a tool to analyse data and statistics.

What would be the point in teaching students about programming, when only about 1% (if that) would choose that in their careers?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 11:54   #97
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Phang
are you some kind of idiot?
If you have nothing constructive to post, please don't
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:01   #98
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If you have nothing constructive to post, please don't
the post in question was fun though because it ignored every single argument made by the posters you mentioned in favour of more or less the diametric opposite approach. maybe you should sit in on some English classes!
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:02   #99
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If you have nothing constructive to post, please don't
He does have a point though; in some ways, your post was arguing against a completely opposite position to the one that I, for one, hold.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:03   #100
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Surely it makes sense that if a lot of what is taught in schools is wasted than we should attempt to minimise waste through changing either what is taught or the approach taken by children towards the teaching?

I really have no idea on tk's positions on his own or versus anyone else's argument
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