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Unread 6 Sep 2010, 23:47   #101
HaNzI
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
You made a point of claiming none of the players/leaders who went into Dragons had achieved anything noteworthy before/since in PA, and I countered that simply because you did not know who they were, did not imply they were unproven entities, and made a point of drawing a parallel to LDK who have several people in similar positions.

Did you know who LordN was before he came to Asc with me rnd26? Did you know who I was before I joined Asc? Do names like MjrTorspo, Carnis, deza, longfellow, Mickemus, Tuhoaja, isotee meaning anything to you? Probably not.

(Every person named is either TK or Owage and a former officer or HC)
I think there are reasons for why noone knew who you, LordN and those others are/were, but they are just too obvious to list and i would feel mentally challenged if i actually felt the urge to explain.

On a side note: Apprime has chucked out some more people and there are currently 54 officers left, can you tell me their nicks?
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Unread 6 Sep 2010, 23:56   #102
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
I think there are reasons for why noone knew who you, LordN and those others are/were, but they are just too obvious to list and i would feel mentally challenged if i actually felt the urge to explain.

On a side note: Apprime has chucked out some more people and there are currently 54 officers left, can you tell me their nicks?
When every member is an officer, regardless of merit, this naturally detracts from the import of the title.
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Unread 6 Sep 2010, 23:57   #103
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
You made a point of claiming none of the players/leaders who went into Dragons had achieved anything noteworthy before/since in PA
I didn't really. It'd be fairly ****ing obvious that at least a few of them managed to fencesit their way into some half decent ranks in round 6 anyways. It's just that other people achieved far more.

My only point in this thread is that making a comparison between dragons playing ******** and everyone else playing planetarion is pretty problematic and overall fairly meaningless.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 00:04   #104
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I didn't really. It'd be fairly ****ing obvious that at least a few of them managed to fencesit their way into some half decent ranks in round 6 anyways. It's just that other people achieved far more.

My only point in this thread is that making a comparison between dragons playing ******** and everyone else playing planetarion is pretty problematic and overall fairly meaningless.
How can you even write this drivel with a straight face? Surely you can't have missed how obviously biased your comments are, to a point where they have no bearing on reality? You might as well claim that the definition of achievement in PA is being known by yourself. The utter arrogance of your ignorance astounds me.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 00:07   #105
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
How can you even write this drivel with a straight face? Surely you can't have missed how obviously biased your comments are, to a point where they have no bearing on reality? You might as well claim that the definition of achievement in PA is being known by yourself. The utter arrogance of your ignorance astounds me.
You're right dude. Dragons won round 5, 7, 9, 11 and 15. Dunno how I missed it up to now. My bad homes!
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 00:22   #106
HaNzI
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You're right dude. Dragons won round 5, 7, 9, 11 and 15. Dunno how I missed it up to now. My bad homes!
I dont know dude, I cant seem to find their achievements or records on their wiki page! (where all decent alliance in THIS game have a page) So you must be mistaken sir!

http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki/index.php/Dragons

Maybe Sun_tzu could be so kind to add their glorious achievements to their page and while he is at it maybe add the key officers and HCs.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 05:23   #107
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Re: Ancient history

I'll admit my memory of r9-10.5 is faint, and i was very noobish pre-pax but i hardly remember dragons at all, i dont see they can be considered great if they failed to make a mark on the conciseness of the wider player base.
Not that I can claim to more knowledge of that than just myself ofc.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 12:52   #108
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Re: Ancient history

I feel the standard of the (few) top alliances in ******** from rounds 7 to 10.5 was higher than that of most alliances I played in or against from round 13 to 21 of PA.

That being said, the game was bug-riddled, and there was a suspicion of botting from the day I started playing it. One thing I do think people who didn't play it underestimate is just how taxing it is to lead a good alliance under the conditions of 30 minute ticks. I can not emphasize enough just how hard it was to play with such an intensity at times. There was a round where my galaxy of 6 people were forced to be awake pretty much for 40 hours straight cross-defending ingal. Now bearing in mind that we were the biggest galaxy in the universe by some margin and that the (At the time) losing block were the ones throwing 30 odd planets* at us every 1hr30 minutes... I have great respect for those who managed good alliances in that game, in that day.

However wars in ******** were generally a lot shorter (Amount of ticks, time) than in PA so we're really comparing apples and oranges by bringing in achievements in that game. Basically, if you had an alliance of people who could go a week without sleeping more than 3-4 hours a day (Daytime, yes) in ******** you were golden. 1 hour ticks has always been about a different kind of stamina.

One thing that takes away some credit from Dragons, is the constant rumours and suspicion of widespread cheating. I consider myself a friend of a lot of people who played there and was several times told it was all lies but it was later admitted to be partially true, which disappointed me hugely. There's really no way for me to tell which of the rounds that I went sleep deprived for weeks only to be stopped by the seeming machine of dragons that could have been different were it not for that, and I'm disappointed to not ever having known the truth before I was done with the game.

That being said other alliances that have been and are considered greats have also been plagued by accusations of cheating in the past so it wouldn't be the reason why Dragons weren't. And I still refuse to believe that people like BaSSe and ricka ever had anything to do with it. I definitely do think that the dragons I fought in rounds 7-10 of ******** would've had a massive impact on early PAX and shat all over a lot of the alliances I played with and against then.

I'm sure this post shows my confusion over what we're actually discussing here, so I'm going to pull out here.
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Last edited by qebab; 7 Sep 2010 at 12:54. Reason: Correcting myself.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 14:01   #109
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Re: Ancient history

god how I miss 30min ticks and an active PIA playerbase. By far the best gaming "fun" I ve ever had. PA just cant compare on that level.
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 15:06   #110
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Re: Ancient history

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab View Post
There was a round where my galaxy of 6 people were forced to be awake pretty much for 40 hours straight cross-defending ingal. Now bearing in mind that we were the biggest galaxy in the universe by some margin and that the (At the time) losing block were the ones throwing 30 odd planets* at us every 1hr30 minutes... I have great respect for those who managed good alliances in that game, in that day.
That was probably Dragons finest achievement, the comeback and ultimate win that round. Titus was the one responsibly for that 48h barrage on your gal that round; was actually discussing that with Rikard just the other day, heh. Also, by that round(and a few before it iirc) Dragons was basically completely clean, possibly MrJ might have played in the tag, but nobody else used Jedi by then.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 16:08   #111
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Re: Ancient history

Allow me to refresh your memory: Agra's gal shared accounts that round, and several planets (5?) in Tuho's galaxy were closed for getting defence from MrJ's bots. At the start of the round I was explicitly instructed by Tuho to never arrange defence for MrJ.

[edit] Actually, reading through my logs, I think that was the round after. Round 14 was the comeback round, round 15 everyone got closed.

[edit2] This is quite funny.

[edit3] Oh I just can't get enough.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 16:17   #112
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
god how I miss 30min ticks and an active PIA playerbase. By far the best gaming "fun" I ve ever had. PA just cant compare on that level.
I honestly think PIA would hold a far greater appeal if only they could get some bloody players. It was the incredibly small playerbase that drove most people away (ironically).
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 20:34   #113
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Allow me to refresh your memory: Agra's gal shared accounts that round, and several planets (5?) in Tuho's galaxy were closed for getting defence from MrJ's bots. At the start of the round I was explicitly instructed by Tuho to never arrange defence for MrJ.

[edit] Actually, reading through my logs, I think that was the round after. Round 14 was the comeback round, round 15 everyone got closed.

[edit2] This is quite funny.

[edit3] Oh I just can't get enough.
Okays, going to write some off-topic shiet about Dragons..
r13 (vs. deuce, brazilians etc.) was the "Dragons comeback round", I believe. Me and feanor (and WuMing for a while) were HC'ing and did put up the "PlanX" which actually turned into forming Dragons for that round and getting the core back together. Jurgen and lizardking did step in at some point.
Can't remember about rounds 14 and 15, might have played as scanner or something.
Gotta ask, which round was this "Agra's gal sharing accos"? because I did play quite many rounds with Agra and that kind of actions didnt happen in those rounds :P I am just curious.

and hi QEBAB!
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 21:43   #114
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Re: Ancient history

This is planetarion AD, unless there are events in PIA that correspond directly to events in PA, I'm declaring them offtopic. Not that I encourage talk about PIA in any case.
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Unread 7 Sep 2010, 22:34   #115
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by qebab View Post
I feel the standard of the (few) top alliances in ******** from rounds 7 to 10.5 was higher than that of most alliances I played in or against from round 13 to 21 of PA.
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Which alliances do you think were better? Most just means more than 50% so that's not really a massive assertion. Dragons better than LCH, Insomnia, ND, CT, Angels? Not that controversial really.

Quote:
I'm sure this post shows my confusion over what we're actually discussing here, so I'm going to pull out here.
As far as I can tell this has been the direction of the thread.

Argument: All top alliances in PA betray
Counter: Dragons didn't backstab
Counter: Dragons weren't exactly much of a pa alliance
Counter: ******** counts

New argument: Dragons were better than fury, legion, xanadu and as good as ascendancy, 1up and exi
Counter: No
Counter: Yes
Counter: No
Counter: Yes
Counter: No
Coun...


Conclusion: More pre-emptive moderating to delete off-topic threads is required.
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Unread 8 Sep 2010, 19:23   #116
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Re: Ancient history

If this is a call from the users for me to ban everyone I'm pro.
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Unread 8 Sep 2010, 19:41   #117
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Re: Ancient history

You always are.
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Unread 8 Sep 2010, 20:36   #118
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Re: Ancient history

The users should be damn grateful they have our benevolence. Those jagex mods look a bit more professional.
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Unread 9 Sep 2010, 01:41   #119
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Re: Ancient history

lokken is about as professional as a crackwhore.

/me awaits his ban.
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Unread 9 Sep 2010, 15:58   #120
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
lokken is about as professional as a crackwhore.

/me awaits his ban.
Technically, you're allowed to spew this to a moderator on alliance discussions, however, god forbid if you slam some shit at a certain multihunter, you'll get banned. Try it that way.
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Unread 9 Sep 2010, 21:54   #121
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Re: Ancient history

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lokken is about as professional as a crackwhore.

/me awaits his ban.
It's not against the rules if it's considered fair comment!
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 04:55   #122
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Re: Ancient history

<3
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 12:47   #123
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Re: Congratulations NFI

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Err...yeah, Prahktos had nothing to do with Dragons afaik. I have a vague recollection such an alliance existed, but I doubt it had any HC's or major portions of the membership in common with Dragons, as we were fully focused on PIA at the time.
I'm merely quoting the wiki link content, I didn't make that up you know.
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 12:53   #124
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Re: Congratulations NFI

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I'm merely quoting the wiki link content, I didn't make that up you know.
Well, as a member of dragons from rnd8 BG onwards, it's the first I've heard of it. I'd suggest that wiki isn't exactly accurate.
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 13:02   #125
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Re: Congratulations NFI

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Well, as a member of dragons from rnd8 BG onwards, it's the first I've heard of it. I'd suggest that wiki isn't exactly accurate.
Could be

Didn't you play with FAnG/Angels for quite a while?
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 13:34   #126
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Re: Ancient history

I think I wrote that, it's a fairly safe assumption that I wrote most of the wiki to be honest. It was just designed to let people know which alliance, if you had to pick one, led primarily into Phraktos. I didn't mean to impugn the honour of dragons or anything so sorry if I did guys!
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 13:49   #127
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Re: Ancient history

I wish people would just change whatever is incorrect or can be misunderstood. Its a freaking wiki so it hardly take much time. Sometimes i sit down with a cup of coffee and add details about rounds i played, add people i played with etc.

Mostly thanks to JBG, we have a lot of interesting stories and summaries on wiki now to read. Quite a few people are added aswell.
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 14:37   #128
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
I wish people would just change whatever is incorrect or can be misunderstood. Its a freaking wiki so it hardly take much time. Sometimes i sit down with a cup of coffee and add details about rounds i played, add people i played with etc.

Mostly thanks to JBG, we have a lot of interesting stories and summaries on wiki now to read. Quite a few people are added aswell.
Much like I changed the description of myself. Seems JBG figured his personal opinion about me should be put in wiki rather then a more objective view

But I am grateful that he put in the effort in the wiki, I enjoy reading it from time to time tbh.
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 15:22   #129
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Re: Ancient history

Except that the last person to update it before you (well, I assume the last edit was by you) was Squidly. 4 years ago. But by all means, blame JBG. That's what I always do.
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 15:24   #130
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Re: Ancient history

Did you "update" the one on me also JBG? I liked it btw!
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 15:29   #131
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Re: Ancient history

That was Hanzi. This is information that you can find on the wiki all by yourself.
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 15:37   #132
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Re: Congratulations NFI

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Could be

Didn't you play with FAnG/Angels for quite a while?
I did, on and off, but from the end of original FAnG rnd8 and until r10, I played with Dragons, my home in PIA as well. Basically ~3 years or so of my "prime" was spent in Dragons.
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Unread 10 Sep 2010, 18:16   #133
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Much like I changed the description of myself. Seems JBG figured his personal opinion about me should be put in wiki rather then a more objective view

But I am grateful that he put in the effort in the wiki, I enjoy reading it from time to time tbh.
As mz pointed out that wasn't me. I try to write as objectively as possible for the wiki. I think it's a good way to keep my ability to write about history objectively in good order while I waste my time working in financial services.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 10:36   #134
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Re: Ancient history

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Except that the last person to update it before you (well, I assume the last edit was by you) was Squidly. 4 years ago. But by all means, blame JBG. That's what I always do.
My bad. Given the content, it might aswell have been JBG editing it
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 10:40   #135
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
As mz pointed out that wasn't me. I try to write as objectively as possible for the wiki. I think it's a good way to keep my ability to write about history objectively in good order while I waste my time working in financial services.
Most stuff on that wiki is pretty objective. But when describing another person, some of the descriptions are somewhat biassed and subjective to whoever created or edited it.

Including my own profile. Given the arguements we sometimes have on AD, I wouldn't have been surprised if you let your bias decided what to write as a description. But like stated by Mz, that wasn't the case hence my apologies.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 10:54   #136
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Re: Congratulations NFI

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Well, as a member of dragons from rnd8 BG onwards, it's the first I've heard of it. I'd suggest that wiki isn't exactly accurate.
i dont remember the member base of Phraktos, but it was before Ğragons played pia. it was created the same round cathexis played.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 11:37   #137
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Re: Ancient history

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My bad. Given the content, it might aswell have been JBG editing it
No, it couldn't have.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 13:52   #138
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Most stuff on that wiki is pretty objective. But when describing another person, some of the descriptions are somewhat biassed and subjective to whoever created or edited it.
I doubt you'll find any that have been composed by me. And for ****s sake kj it's spelt biased. This is like the four billionth time you have been corrected on this. Remember this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddah
i dont remember the member base of Phraktos, but it was before Ğragons played pia. it was created the same round cathexis played.
This doesn't exactly make much sense considering tzu's whole 'pia was really active and much better before 1up began playing pa' thing. As 1up was created the round after phraktos so hilariously imploded.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 15:23   #139
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Re: Ancient history

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I doubt you'll find any that have been composed by me. And for ****s sake kj it's spelt biased. This is like the four billionth time you have been corrected on this. Remember this!
Lol, what? I'm sure you've maybe corrected me a few times ... but I wasn't aware I wrote that word wrong so many times. But thanks for your contineous efforts to correct my English spelling.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 15:46   #140
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Re: Congratulations NFI

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Originally Posted by Buddah View Post
i dont remember the member base of Phraktos, but it was before Ğragons played pia. it was created the same round cathexis played.
Cathexis was one hilarious failure politically.

ps. MacT sure is horrible at naming alliances...
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 18:08   #141
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Re: Ancient history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Lol, what? I'm sure you've maybe corrected me a few times ... but I wasn't aware I wrote that word wrong so many times. But thanks for your contineous efforts to correct my English spelling.
I may have partook in some mild exaggeration.
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 18:10   #142
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Re: Ancient history

That link will expire in a bit. Suffice to say, Kjel has said baissed over 60 times!
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Unread 13 Sep 2010, 18:43   #143
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Re: Ancient history

for the record, that's over 240 buttocks.
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Unread 14 Sep 2010, 09:23   #144
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That link will expire in a bit. Suffice to say, Kjel has said baissed over 60 times!
I'm glad to know that you've counted them
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Unread 14 Sep 2010, 09:23   #145
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
for the record, that's over 240 buttocks.
Good one
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Unread 14 Sep 2010, 09:40   #146
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Re: Ancient history

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
I'm glad to know that you've counted them
It sure was hard reading the bit that said "Showing results 0 to X of 62".
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Unread 13 Oct 2010, 02:48   #147
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Re: Ancient history

c7R rules !

Missinformation was the name of the game. I used to come on the forums with other identities and cause abrasive relations between peeps, often in IRC channels as a low ranking member of a medium partner of an alliance, then spout off about one of their allies and cause arguements.

Then all that propaganda to get on certain peoples nerves on the forums

I loved those days, I spent more time on here and in IRC causing mischeif than playing, and we pretty much knew who was getting sacrificed before we even made the deals, except when we had to think on our feet.

... got shafted by Fred though in the end, hoisted by my own patard, sense of importance and forgeting that some people still wanted to just play the game properly to win, rather than the social club it turned into for me.
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Unread 17 Oct 2010, 16:21   #148
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Re: Ancient history

I'm naturally biased but I'd agree with Lokken on that I believe Fury historically (from all factors - not just number of rounds won) were the best alliance the game has seen.

In many ways, r4 was the turning point of Fury that radically altered the leadership of the alliance and paved the way for some of the latter Fury personalities to rise to power (giving fresh new enthusiasm and energy) - people like myself, Germania and Meth.

The succeess, experiance and policies of Fury resounded for many rounds to come, from the people involved in Fury and Wrath even after Fury's disbandment.

(Eclipse, then 1up with links to many other alliances in former Fury Officers and such)

Why Fury over 1up? Because 1up was by far the more noble alliance, and restricted it's own paths to victory. Fury was a respectable ruthless and thus was weaker than Fury as a result. (Though the Furyism was clear in 1up thus why the Fury = 1up threads from a long time ago).

1up impacted PAX and due to the Fury roots, is a natural progression that has further shaped the PAX era and beyond.

No doubt can be brought on how whatever Fury decided in rounds shaped it for thousands of players and that ladies and gentlemen, is a raw showing of the extent of Fury's political acumen.

Synthetic_Sid I do believe will always be in memory of one of, if not the, political figure of the game.



As for Dragons, I laugh at how they can even claim fair play when it was the actions of Dragons that led to the breakdown in relations with Eclipse/WP/Elysium. Dragons launched attacks during the NAP/Ally agreements onto Eclipse command galaxies (Rob was one such galaxy)

If Sun Tzu really believes Dragons was the equivalent to Xanadu, never mind Fury then he is barking up the wrong tree. Xanadu in my mind were historically the anti-Furyism that had spread throughout PA and commanded a great military - bringing what I thought to be the first successful coordination in multiple waves on different vectors. Xanadu just suffered from some political choices and part of me would have liked to see a Fury - Xanadu alliance.

What do you guys think? How would a Fury/Xanadu alliance have faired? Comment in the other thread on this point!
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Unread 18 Oct 2010, 10:47   #149
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Re: Ancient history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l View Post
Quote:
I'm naturally biased yadayada
Just a little?

Quote:
Why Fury over 1up? Because 1up was by far the more noble alliance, and restricted it's own paths to victory. Fury was a respectable ruthless and thus was weaker than Fury as a result. (Though the Furyism was clear in 1up thus why the Fury = 1up threads from a long time ago).
Wow, You ever heard of alliance formely known as eXilition? Rather biasedly way hilarious comparing past 2 of your own(?) alliances, instead f.ex. comparing 1 PA reign alliance to the best alliance of PAX (that you definately had nothing to do with). Ofc when following the unobjective set storyline it kinda fits in just neatly.

Quote:
Synthetic_Sid I do believe will always be in memory of one of, if not the, political figure of the game.
Possibly. He doesn't have to piss and wet all corners of the forums about it either.

Quote:
As for Dragons, I laugh at how they can even claim fair play when it was the actions of Dragons that led to the breakdown in relations with Eclipse/WP/Elysium. Dragons launched attacks during the NAP/Ally agreements onto Eclipse command galaxies (Rob was one such galaxy)
That's complete horse shit. I can remember similar statements over the issue during r9 of which I was in charge of Ğragons BG that was mostly integrated into Wolfpack. What happened was complete opposite. Eclipse launched on allied Wolfpack planets (non-Ğragons if my memory serves). Somehow WP HQ was unable to handle / end already begun random "friendly" fire coming from Eclipse. however they pasted me info on most of those occasions. A while after I gave greenlight for some retals on the eclipse planets in question. Eclipse afterwards used these incidents as a standing stone (aka excuse) to break the block coz round was stagnated and tad boring.

Why no one before corrected what ACTUALLY did happen? Well... Personally I didn't give much shit / didn't pay attension to forums back in the day. I'm sure the ones charge of Wolfpack could've stepped up if they wanted, but perhaps they have life outside the forums or didn't wanna jump into flame-wagon driven by ex fury trolls.

Quote:
If Sun Tzu really believes Dragons was the equivalent to Xanadu, never mind Fury then he is barking up the wrong tree. Xanadu in my mind were historically the anti-Furyism that had spread throughout PA and commanded a great military - bringing what I thought to be the first successful coordination in multiple waves on different vectors. Xanadu just suffered from some political choices and part of me would have liked to see a Fury - Xanadu alliance.
Unless you played 'the other game' you've less clue than SunTzu

Quote:
What do you guys think? How would a Fury/Xanadu alliance have faired? Comment in the other thread on this point!
Cba'ed.
Ps. Have you managed to tailor a single input on AD without a phrase of "fury" or "1up" these past years? I mean writing over Ancient History explicitly is a bit like playing a broken record on a repeat
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Unread 18 Oct 2010, 19:45   #150
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Re: Ancient history

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizardking View Post
Ps. Have you managed to tailor a single input on AD without a phrase of "fury" or "1up" these past years? I mean writing over Ancient History explicitly is a bit like playing a broken record on a repeat
Yes, I've posted whilst Ascendancy and contributed to the forums without Fury/1up mention.

Additionally, this thread mentioned Fury (and 1up to a degree) and since I was around I figured I'd comment as frankly there are few people who can comment on 1up command level, and even fewer for Fury.

The concept of Dragons being better than Fury prompted a response as did Lokken commenting to which my post referred too.


As for your point regarding Eclipse/Dragons - you're talking rubbish. It was the issues with Dragons that stemmed problems. Rob didn't like having to stay up and sort out the mess and the attacks onto our command galaxies were the last straw to issues with Dragons and WP's inability to control.

Ancient history indeed and all the evidence at the time and from multiple alliances pointed to the Eclipse/Dragons breakup to having been the main contributing factor to how the war panned out.
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