[Declined] Cloaking: the non feature

[Cochese]

Since cloaked ships aren't actually "cloaked" anymore (the fleet size shows up, and unit scans show ship counts), what exactly is the point of calling Xan "cloaked" anymore?

Almost every single one of their ships have inferior armor and damage compared to similiar ships of each class for the other three races. Instead of being cloaked, with higher firepower and lower armor, they're not cloaked, have lower firepower and lower armor.

This makes no sense, really.


I propose giving them back their original cloaking whereby if you launch pure cloaked ships at a target, the fleet size shows up as 0...because at the moment, they really don't have any "special" features at all.

The only ships that should not be cloaked are their pods, as it was the "old days", and make fleet scans show the cloaked ships, instead of the unit scans (which would only show the pods, and possibly structure killers).

[Forest]

Being able to fake with fr/fi and not be fleetscanned is very powerful for xans.

What doesnt help is that they are so underpowered this round, but im sure next round, when theya re back to normal, things will settle again.

[Cochese]

Still, what's the point of calling them cloaked, if they're not?

Yes, I'm nitpicking here, but the point remains

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Still, what's the point of calling them cloaked, if they're not?

Yes, I'm nitpicking here, but the point remains

Just as a point, what does cloaking actually entail? Invisibility, or some form of nonexistance from the POV of ALL kinds of EM radiation, not just light?

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Still, what's the point of calling them cloaked, if they're not?

Yes, I'm nitpicking here, but the point remains

They are cloaked though. It's just that cloaking is defined differently than it was earlier.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Banned

They are cloaked though. It's just that cloaking is defined differently than it was earlier.

'Cloaked' is now defined as 'not cloaked.'

But yeah, the whole cloaking paradigm has been laundered down to lint. I suspect no one really wants to see a completely unknown fleet incoming on their planet. There are some things they could do to give Zans back some of their "texture," but that sort of thing can complicate race balancing which already appears to be a weak point.

[demiGOD]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Still, what's the point of calling them cloaked, if they're not?

Yes, I'm nitpicking here, but the point remains

actually.. i dont know if i was drunk that night or high, but i think Xan fleets were not shown on my jumpgate probe scans that were below eta 5 (meaning def fleets in-gal should've been shown on my jpg's) until my battle report showed a shitload of Xan ships defending the planet i'm attacking - which damn near wiped out my attacking fleet

[noah02]

I think Xan are a good race at the mo they kick terrans bum and terrans kick cats bum and ziks kick xan bum and cats are cute.

[Thermodynamics]

They are cloaked, simple- they can't be fleetscanned. A race which can't be unit scanned or whose fleet size didn't show up would simply be too powerful. Incredibly so.

Yes you can unit scan, but who out there sends their entire fleet out roiding on a regular basis anyway? Combining a reasonable knowledge of a xans ships, ETA's and unit scans, one can get a fair idea about what they have sent. When coupled with an ETA of 7, "cloaking" if used competantly is a poerful feature.

[MAdnRisKy]

eta is less important now though......

what with all anti bs ships say being fr class or above the variation in ships usable for defence and eta difference between them and ships attacking, is now much less so than it used to be

[aceshot]

They are cloaked, you fleet scan a Xan attacking you and u will see NO ships.
not even pods.

Stop complaining

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by Thermodynamics

They are cloaked, simple- they can't be fleetscanned. A race which can't be unit scanned or whose fleet size didn't show up would simply be too powerful. Incredibly so.

Oddly enough, they weren't "too powerful" prior to PAX, so I don't see your reasoning.

Also, if you actually read my suggestion, you would know that a modification to the fleet scan would show cloaked ships, while the unit scan would not....as it should be, since it's the "new" military scan.

[MAdnRisKy]

goes back to giving xan a huge advantage though.... because unlike old mil scans you can only do a fleet scan if they are attacking you.

I mean how you gonna work out if you can smash him or not?

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by aceshot

They are cloaked, you fleet scan a Xan attacking you and u will see NO ships.
not even pods.

Stop complaining

You're basically saying "that's the way it is because...uhm...that's the way it is".

Right, go back to doing "PA support" or whatever the hell it is you do, and leave game mechanics to people with a clue.

I'll complain all I want.

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

goes back to giving xan a huge advantage though.... because unlike old mil scans you can only do a fleet scan if they are attacking you.

I mean how you gonna work out if you can smash him or not?

How did we do it in the old days? Use that grey matter between your ears perhaps, or alternately, send a handful of Cutlasses, since they clearly wtfpwn Xan fighters.

The advantage was never "huge" anyways.


As an aside, the fleet scan should be scrapped in favor of the mil scan anyways. Trying to force people to do their own scans quite obviously doesn't work (hello jgp workaraound).

This would not only enable Xan to have their actual cloaking back, but wouldn't give away eta or location, as "too much information" is apparently a bad thing.

Win/Win

[khaos]

Seriously though, you can so easily tell whats coming out you, if your a ter with 50k incoming, you know its pulsars, sentinels and daggers, if your a zik and you see 10k incoming you know its FR. Xans should get more cloak. I like the you cant see how many ships idea. Aswell as the you cant unit scan them. Just add something more to them, cause there starting to lack what they use to have.

[MAdnRisKy]

it isn't an aside.. with mil scans you could do it without having an incomming fleet.

I may agree with your sentiments, but you can't scrap the unit scan on a xan without replacing it with some way of figuring out a stationary xan's fleet espcially if you intend to revert to the xan ships = 0 notion (excluding pods of course)

[demiGOD]

i got a way to fix this glitch.. theyre only cloaked when launched.. they will show the "actual" number of ships on galaxy status and jpg's, but the fleet scans, cloaked ships that are assign as "cloaked" will not be seen on fleet scans.. so if u see 1000 inc on ur galaxy status, but the fleet scan only showed 500 ships, that means the other 500 is cloaked and will get the planet being attacked guessing so... hmmm that still is pretty powerful... that..... NAH forget it guys!!!

[Doorsdown]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

I mean how you gonna work out if you can smash him or not?

we had no trouble with them in 10.5 and we couldn't unit or fleet scan them

[MAdnRisKy]

I fear over balancing issues for xan.... rnd 8 anyone?

[Cochese]

I think Xan were overpowered in r8 due to the combination of overburn (most idiotic thing ever) and the new initation system, where roid cost was determined by number of type, not total number--making Eonium roids more plentiful, and allowing people to waste it on overburn attacks.

I don't remember the stats they used that round, however.

Anyways, look at Xan now. A handful of Cutlasses wtfpwn a Xan Fighter fleet, not to mention in-gal Rogues.

Not only do they no longer have cloaking, they no longer have teeth :/


Edit: I looked at the stats, and not much changed other than the Sentinel pricing between r7 and 8...except in r8, they made it a substantial Crystal sink (went from 1600m, 350c to 500m, 1000c).

With it's retarded T3 = ALL, being a Crystal sink compared to Metal-heavy Vsh/Puls, and that idiotic Overburn, and you have your answer as to why Xan in r8 was overpowered.

We had the same problem with "Xan" in PIA...most of the universe was always "Xan", every round, and they had virtually identical fleets: 19283719237129 "Sentinels", a few token "Vsh", and the Corvette pods + flak.

They've really gone from being overpowered to underpowered over the course of the last few rounds, and the low armor (meaning higher efficiency for ships targetting Fighters) is essentially the nail in their coffin.

Case and point: 1 Cutlass will subvert Harpy: 2 (24), Spider: 3 (36), Vsharrak Fighter: 7 (63), Daeraith Pulsar: 4 (48), Dagger: 4 (52), Corsair: 1 (19)

*cough*

[MAdnRisKy]

cochese, xan in rnd 8 had another advantage..... and it was to do with the changes in mil scans... what you're proposing makes that very easy again.

IF you were to ONLY change these scans and keep the stats almost identical it might work. But it won't happen that way. Xan will get an overhaul in stats AND make it extremely easy to fleet fake, and then they'll be the uber race for rnd 13. and i'm just saying it's happened before.... and conversations like this one were pre cursors

[noah02]

Xan are sort of on and off for each round.
Tbh they should always rule in reality its just the way they are everyone knows an invisible fleet shoots first.
But we have to be realistic and cant have them being awesome every round.
I say you should see 0 incoming but be able to fleet scan them to see numbers incoming but not ships or then again that would make them nails hmmmm but still be able to unit scan them.

[Cochese]

Or perhaps add a cloaked unit scan (that anyone can do) between News and JGP on the tech tree or something along those lines.

[aceshot]

Originally Posted by Cochese

You're basically saying "that's the way it is because...uhm...that's the way it is".

Right, go back to doing "PA support" or whatever the hell it is you do, and leave game mechanics to people with a clue.

I'll complain all I want.

OMG i feel so pwned
*****

You cant take criticism? geez dude

I am saying that they have been made that way so they at least they have something in their favour fs, no wonder u get heavily flamed if u take that attitude to a comment.

You aint perfect aight

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by aceshot

OMG i feel so pwned
*****

Fine then. Run along before you get "pwned" some more.

You cant take criticism? geez dude

I certainly can: CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not "nubs" like yourself posting gibberish instead of a well conceieved and solid argument. Stupid posts get stupid replies. Fancy how that works.

I am saying that they have been made that way so they at least they have something in their favour fs, no wonder u get heavily flamed if u take that attitude to a comment.

Please point out where I've been flamed, other than your immature comments.

Also, please try to wrap your brain around what is being discussed here. You have yet to give a valid argument, and the above quoted material certainly doesn't count. Yes, they can't be fleet scanned. So what, they can be unit scanned, and you can see EXACTLY how many ships are incoming, and unit scan to find out pretty much exactly what they have.

See if you can figure out how that isn't cloaking, and how that's anything "in their favor" at all.

You aint perfect aight

I never claimed I was, nor did I allude to believe that. You're quite obviously not perfect as your lack of understanding here has proven.

Now, back to the discussion at hand: adding a cloaked unit scan to the tech tree in light of giving Xan their "old" cloaking back.

[MAdnRisKy]

but leave their numbers of incs? or remove that.... if you remove that and have the changed mil scans as they are now, xan are WAAAY too powerful... don't do it, and it's an accademic exercise except it gives xan a slight amount of extra researching time before the scan planets know what their fleet is

[Cochese]

Revome the number of incoming ships aside from pods (which wouldn't be cloaked), add a cloaked unit scan, and let the fleet analysis scan show what they've sent.

Puts more importance on Xans building jammers as well, offsetting their ability to build other constructions in any great number if they want to keep their fleet info relatively hidden.

[MAdnRisKy]

do you need the cloaked unit scan also?

(playing devils advocate here now, the idea has worth in that scenario since you can at least in theory, work out what is inbound...)

[Forest]

The problem with a cloaked scan, is that u then ahve a scan, that u ahve to research, that is for one race only. All scans aer available for all races, and tbh thats how it should be. (I am aware we catn FA xan, but thats caus ethey are cloaked, so in effect, its smoething we cant do to them, rather than something that is needed for them).

[Cochese]

I suppose you wouldn't need the cloaked unit scan if the fleet analysis scan showed the cloaked fleet....if it encourages Xans to build jammers, it would probably encourage everyone else to build more amps--or at least give scan planets more importance, which I'm not so sure about.

Hence the idea of having a cloaked unit scan...

[lokken]

It's amusing that Xan are meant to be a kill race, but yet they don't kill (just look at Xan BS vs Zik BS)

The fleet scan factor of not being able to be scanned last round was fine as xan had proper stats, hence they were reasonably effective.

For xan to be properly cloaked, you'ld have to bring back the military scan (or else you could never tell what they had), and I think in terms of scans, things are probably better as they are - all that Xan needs is better stats.

[Cochese]

Good point(s) Lok, however there is a problem with merely giving them better stats.

If they're a "kill" race, they have high damage--which they most certainly do not have now, heh.

Of course, this could be easily solved by doubling their damage, and giving them a bit more armor.

The issue with Zik vs Xan is quite obviously the biggest stat issue that needs to be addressed. Note the cutlass efficiency versus Xan Fighters in one of my previous posts.

The Rogue needs to be changed...either initiative, targetting, damage, or a combination of those.

Without Rogues, you can at least just lob more and more Fighters at a Zik to get through...Whoever is responsible for that ship specifically, I'd like to drag out into the street and shoot.

[MAdnRisKy]

hmm somebody went xan didn't they.

Lok BS is a bad example, xan have always had crap capital ships. But yes the xan stats are shocking.... my only worry is that the sats will be readressed AND you'll do something with xan's cloak, and they'll just end up being the rnd 13 uber race :/

(at which point, cochese here will probably go zik :P)

[Troll]

Ok this is so simple

Xans show on unit scans because they don't engage there cloaking devices while docked in order to conserve energy

as for the rest, whatever

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

hmm somebody went xan didn't they.

Lok BS is a bad example, xan have always had crap capital ships. But yes the xan stats are shocking.... my only worry is that the sats will be readressed AND you'll do something with xan's cloak, and they'll just end up being the rnd 13 uber race :/

(at which point, cochese here will probably go zik :P)

I went Xan knowing full well what the stats were, and that since Zik were (are) overpowered, there would be problems down the road. I actually almost when Cath just to **** the big Ziks that would inevetably show up, but I liked the way Xan played, generally speaking.

I'm actually hoping to play the Beta just to see if I can't make sure they don't bork the stats again, but instead, making them balanced--Xan included.


Troll: kindly **** off out of this thread if you have nothing constructive to contribute. I could just as easily be a smartass as and say Xan ships were cloaked in orbit in the previous five rounds, but how does that help?

It doesn't.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Of course, this could be easily solved by doubling their damage, and giving them a bit more armor.

This unhinges Zikonian balance.

The issue with Zik vs Xan is quite obviously the biggest stat issue that needs to be addressed. Note the cutlass efficiency versus Xan Fighters in one of my previous posts.

Yeah, at the moment Zik is powerful because Xan's armor is weak. The best attack a Zik can do is FR/CO with a healthy Cutlass count and get a Xan to defend with some pulsars and a heavy load of Vsh.

The Rogue needs to be changed...either initiative, targetting, damage, or a combination of those.

Yeah, Rogue having init 3 is insane. Looking at Zik stats it looks more like a typo than anything.

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

Lok BS is a bad example, xan have always had crap capital ships.

Not true. They've just always had better options elsewhere.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

hmm somebody went xan didn't they.

Lok BS is a bad example, xan have always had crap capital ships. But yes the xan stats are shocking.... my only worry is that the sats will be readressed AND you'll do something with xan's cloak, and they'll just end up being the rnd 13 uber race :/

But it's a basic example of two very similar ships in terms of class, target, and killing, so a nice obvious comparator.

If there's one ship i'd certainly improve its the vsh - the fact it just falls over and dies doesn't make it especially useful to anyone, really.

As for testing this stuff: Quite honestly sod having an open beta, have it with people who actually want to make good stats, not the kind who brag that 'they came first in beta' as those kind of people are actually fags who add nothing to the testing whatsoever.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by lokken

As for testing this stuff: Quite honestly sod having an open beta, have it with people who actually want to make good stats, not the kind who brag that 'they came first in beta' as those kind of people are actually fags who add nothing to the testing whatsoever.

Betas are terrible for testing stats, a battlecalc would be better.

[OrionIII]

I agree with Banned... PA Crew should set up a calc and try to even outhe stats...

But Honestly i am a Xan this round, and I believe that maybe adding a little Attack power and a littel Armor to all Xan ships is NOT the best way.

Either double armor or weapons, not both, that makes the Xan specialized in one area. If i had to decide that one id say weapons. For the simple fact that by being cloaked that is part of their defenses and therefore the actual physical armor is reduced, cos if it wasnt where it is the ships wouldnt be able to cloak.. that seems reasonable from a game mechanics point of view... doesnt it?

[Troll]

there is nothing paticularily wrong with XAN. FFs complaining about being xan where is the whine thread about being terran clearly the worst race of the round.


goatchesse your a noob :-)

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Troll: kindly **** off out of this thread if you have nothing constructive to contribute.

They seriously need moderators on this forum.

[Legion]

how about you just dont pick Xan and not worry ...

[Cochese]

What part of "if you don't have anything constructive to contribute, don't post" do you people not get?

[Legion]

Originally Posted by Cochese

What part of "if you don't have anything constructive to contribute, don't post" do you people not get?

just winding you up chill down boy. :xmas:

[Cochese]

Since I'm probably twice your age, I'd appreciate you not calling me "boy".

We're trying to get something done here, so please, go troll on AD if you aren't going to add anything useful to this discussion

BACK ON TOPIC KTHNX.

[Chippeh]

For once I'm forced to agree with cochese

I've been noticing all round that Xan's arn't really cloaked anymore.

To begin with, FA isn't used all that often when organising defence, between the target not being on and the attacker having dist.

Combine that with Xan being one of the weak races this round, means unit scans usually are sufficient, as either they've had to send their entire (or close to it) Fi/Co fleet, making calcing easy, or they've sent some fake of a) fi meant to look like fr or b) fr meant to look like fi and I for one haven't seen one of these work all round.

So I suggest a) Hide inc. Xan fleet number

or b) Make unit scans only show Xan pods, and have FA show fleet composition. (Yes I'm sure this will cause some people to whine about the target having to be online, blah blah blah)

[Hellcat]

With all these problems with balancing Xan's cloaking, how about changing them back to how they were with a Xan fleet not really being detected apart from a message in the news saying a jumpgate from x:x:x has been detected... So all you will know is the ETA and the planet the attack originated from..

This make them too powerful? Well here is my suggestion and roll with me on this one..

Give the research a few more options.. To combat Xan undetectable fleets bring in a cloak array scan, after all the current scans, which will scan Xan fleets and give back a certain amount of info - be it fleet size, approx size (e.g. fighters 2000, frigates 200, destroyers 20), or the full fleet scan info.

Will this give the other races an advantage? Well how about introducing some other research options.
- Cloak Array Scans.. and (anti xan)
- Advanced armour - Brings terran strength armour to combat terrans (anti-ter)
- EMP Shielding - Helps protect against the effects of EMP (anti-cat)
- Micro Sealing - Seals your ships against nanobot penetration (anti-zik)

You could bring this tech tree into being after a certain number of ticks for example 1/2 way through round. This would give the round the chance for your planet to have its advantages during the start of the round. Half way through technologies develop to counter your advantages.

A wild suggestion off the top of my head but i would like to see my research tree develop during the game instead of having everything done except the ability to mine x 1,000 roids. Opening new tech branches at set ticks allows for the stagnation of the round to be shaken up.

[macros69]

Manual
Xandathrii

Construction: 1 ticks faster
Research: 10% slower
Production: 1 tick faster
Ships are cloaked , but have extremely poor armour and powerful weapons.

well you got it right about the armor but powerful weapons........no race has weaker weapons than the Xan and before people say there init ain't to bad that is true but its doesnt say anything about the speed they attack.

Xan need to get more powerful weapons and i think cloaking should have some more advantages apart from if you fleet scan you dont get an individual breakdown of the ships. hands up guys who can't roughly guess what an xan is sending them??? maybe if you did it so that if you were attacked by an Xan then in the incoming fleets on galaxy status for the amount of ships it would be 0. But if you fleetscanned them it would tell you how many ships were being sent to attack. I dont know just a susgestion.

[Tyroka]

Originally Posted by macros69

Xan need to get more powerful weapons and i think cloaking should have some more advantages apart from if you fleet scan you dont get an individual breakdown of the ships. hands up guys who can't roughly guess what an xan is sending them??? maybe if you did it so that if you were attacked by an Xan then in the incoming fleets on galaxy status for the amount of ships it would be 0. But if you fleetscanned them it would tell you how many ships were being sent to attack. I dont know just a susgestion.

This would be too powerful, it would give xans an advantage just not in the beginning of round (as it was before PaX: before mil-scans) but during the whole round. To be able to arrange (good) def against a xan u would need to have a fleet analysis and if the guy under attack isn't around to give it u'd need to send lots, making xans a real def-drain from alliances (too powerful)

Instead make it (as suggested) show only number of pods (and perhaps struct-killers) in news/gal-status. Let unit-scans be as they are now and fleet analysis (FA) only give total number of ships sent towards the planet.

This would give a little extra for the xan (if the target isn't around to do a FA):
* can send only pods as fake
* hard to know how many ships to defend against
* Xan could either build as many fr-pods as fi-pods or send along enough fi-pods together with fr-pods make the number look like fi-pods (ofc ETA can give a clue but the xan could just have added 1 slower ship)

and if the target is around to do a FA it would be as it is today.

This gives more advantage to the xan but not as much as if unit-scan would be blank (only show pods & struct-killers).



btw Cochese, making a new post, a new for each one, where u "flame" those not contributing to the discussion just adds a lot of more unimportant posts in the thread making it less interesting to read. (I do agree that those ppl shouldn't post here but u telling them that won't make them stop posting and only add another unimportant post to the thread)

[macros69]

Yeah i can see how this would be to powerful but wouldnt telling the number of pods, structure killers etc be a disadvantage to Xan if the person in question had unit scan? because most people know what a Xan will send them and if you now knew the amount of pods and structure killers then you would be able to make an even better estimate