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6 Jun 2005, 15:53
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#1
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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American Sign Language: Utter Scam
To me "American Sign Language" implies a 'language.' But it's not. It's just a complete and utter scam.
The other day I was attending one of my graduation ceremonies, as I am wont to do, and was watching the sign langauge chick because I was bored. Anyway, she's going through all kinds of crazy motions, and I'm trying to match symbols with words. Yeah.
The speaker is talking about the show '24' (don't ask why), and mentions how they sometimes break it into four panels. And the sign language chick, instead of doing a 'four' (maybe four fingers?) and then some whacky symbol for 'panel', does as follows: uses her hands to square out four regions in front of her, upper left, upper right, lower left, and lower right. And I think to myself: is it more likely that the sign language to english dictionary actually has that as a defined translation of "four panels", or is she just making this shit up as she goes along?
I think it's pretty clear. When they say 'language' what they mean is "a set of hand gestures and symbols, often corresponding with english letters and words, used to convey complex and/or abstract ideas".
Such bullshit.
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6 Jun 2005, 15:57
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#2
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Heh, Leeds !
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: In The Redfern
Posts: 3,790
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Why didn't they do a powerpoint demo and save the poor girl getting arm ache or something ?
__________________
The George Harrison of BlueTuba
Yes, I know he is dead !
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6 Jun 2005, 15:58
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#3
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Insanely Insignificant
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 1,056
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
language
a systematic means of communicating by the use of sounds or conventional symbols; "he taught foreign languages"; "the language introduced is standard throughout the text"; "the speed with which a program can be executed depends on the language in which it is written"
Are you upset because you don't understand sign language or just have unmerited apathy towards it?
It's an extremely useful means of communication.
__________________
Very nearly there.
All is nothing, without you.
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6 Jun 2005, 17:44
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#4
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phalon
language
a systematic means of communicating by the use of sounds or conventional symbols; "he taught foreign languages"; "the language introduced is standard throughout the text"; "the speed with which a program can be executed depends on the language in which it is written"
Are you upset because you don't understand sign language or just have unmerited apathy towards it?
It's an extremely useful means of communication.
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that's a poor definition, but the key proposition is that it is 'systematic.'
while a langauge doesn't necesarily require every word/symbol what have you to be explicitly defined, it does imply that for any word/symbol you create, there is an explicit way to interpret it.
from the example i give, symbols in ASL can be used which have no explicit rule for interpretation, and therefore it is not systematic, and therefore, even by your (poor) definition, ASL is simply not a langauge.
PS: i think you mean 'antipathy', and no i don't,
and yes, i agree it's 'useful', but that's completely beside the point.
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6 Jun 2005, 18:00
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#5
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Powering your life...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 400
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Sign language has its merits- beeyond a doubt. This is a language people will be learning as an accompanient to their first language, so why noy simplfy the process? make it as easy as possible? And is it not testimony to the language that somebody entirely unskilled in it can understand what the chick was talking about? Anyway, i'd like to point out that glove sounds just like "hand-shoe" in German...
__________________
Reality is only a perception.
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6 Jun 2005, 18:00
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#6
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Dum Di Dum Di
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 858
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Would you be happier if they only used difficult signs to abstract things that could be easily shown directly?
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6 Jun 2005, 18:09
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
while a langauge doesn't necesarily require every word/symbol what have you to be explicitly defined, it does imply that for any word/symbol you create, there is an explicit way to interpret it.
from the example i give, symbols in ASL can be used which have no explicit rule for interpretation, and therefore it is not systematic, and therefore, even by your (poor) definition, ASL is simply not a langauge.
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Most signs in natural language dont have explicit rules for interpretation - although the meaning of a sign will be fixed to some extent, its general 'meaning' in any particular instance will be largely derived from both the specific context, and the way it is being used. To be honest, I'm not sure what an "explict rule" for interpretation would even look like.
I think that the most sensible criteria for classifying an utterence as a genuine linguistic sign, as opposed to an arbitrary sound/gesture, is that independent speakers of the language will able to interpret and use it in a similar way, in similar contexts. If users of ASL are able to understand the panel sign she gave, then it seems obvious that it does possess some degree of objectivity, whether there are explicit "rules" or not. If she was simply making it up as she went along, other speakers of ASL wouldnt be able to understand what she was trying to communicate.
Quote:
is it more likely that the sign language to english dictionary actually has that as a defined translation of "four panels", or is she just making this shit up as she goes along?
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If a person has been annoying me for a while and I want to communicate that something they have just done has gone too far, I might refer to it as "the straw that broke the camel's back". Would an English to Chinese dictionary actually include this under the definition of the individual words? That utterance gains its understandability not from any explict rules goverming the 'meanings' of the individual words, but through the role it plays in our language, taken as a whole. No matter how much you know about the individual lingustic tokens ('straw', 'camel', 'back'), you would not be able to deduce that they would be employed in this specifc way. You cant analyse language at the term-by-term level and expect to get anywhere.
Now suppose instead of using that cliched expression, I decided to make up my own metaphor on the spot - lets say I called it "the last heavy truck that finally made the bridge collapse". Is there an explicit rule for interpreting this? You certainly couldnt deduce what I meant through an analysis of the individual words, and its quite possible that this utterance has never been made before by a speaker of English. But it would be wrong to say I was just making it up as I went along - any competant speaker of the language would understand exactly what I was trying to communicate. Similarly, even if she did just make up that description of a panel, she will probably be counting on ASL speakers to understand it through their holistic linguistic ability. Being able to instantly use and understand never-seen-before expressions is a vital part of knowing a language.
Last edited by Nodrog; 6 Jun 2005 at 18:33.
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6 Jun 2005, 18:25
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
Sign language has its merits- beeyond a doubt. This is a language people will be learning as an accompanient to their first language.
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Sign language can be a first language, not an accompaiment. The distinction between sign languages and spoken languages is probably a lot narrower than most people think, if it even exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language
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6 Jun 2005, 21:16
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#9
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Powering your life...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 400
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
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I never said it didn't. But for all those who use it as a first language- their family,friends probably learnt it too- and then there are those who lose their hearing. So all in all I think [NB. I think! i could be wrong!] that there might be more people with it as a 2nd language than 1st.
__________________
Reality is only a perception.
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6 Jun 2005, 22:38
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#10
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I think that the most sensible criteria for classifying an utterence as a genuine linguistic sign, as opposed to an arbitrary sound/gesture, is that independent speakers of the language will able to interpret and use it in a similar way, in similar contexts. If users of ASL are able to understand the panel sign she gave, then it seems obvious that it does possess some degree of objectivity, whether there are explicit "rules" or not. If she was simply making it up as she went along, other speakers of ASL wouldnt be able to understand what she was trying to communicate.
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I would strongly disagree with the belief that language can be demonstrated by successful communication of an idea. If I'm peeing on someone's shoe, I feel that I am quite clearly conveying my utter contempt for them, yet I would not consider myself communicating linguistically. By the same token, such a definition would imply that a dog humping your leg was speaking in American Sign Language fluently, conveying clearly that (A) he is horny and (B) he finds you attractive. I see the "genuine linguistic sign vs. an arbitrary sound/gesture" portayal to be a false dichotomy; something can be an entirely meaningful sign or gesture without having linguistic character.
Yes, the sign language lady was clearly communicating to her audience. And in a similar situation, the listeners may use her gestures to reproduce the same idea. But I think language is something more. People can make silent films which convey thoughts and ideas. I would argue that they do this largely without the use of language (restricting to silent films that didn't have text appear intermittently throughout the film). Someone else, upon seeing one of these films, can use a similar scene in their silent movie to convey a similar idea. But I don't feel that makes it suddenly become 'silent film language.'
Last edited by acropolis; 6 Jun 2005 at 22:46.
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6 Jun 2005, 22:56
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#11
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Yuba stalks me
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 28
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Sign language rocks. It is a true language because it has a formal syntax and formal semantics. It is able to express abstract concepts, and enables people to communicate.
The coolest thing about sign language, is that people that use ASL as their primary form of communication (mainly native signers i.e. people born deaf) actually sign in their sleep!
How cool is that?
__________________
* elusion jumps on arbs
* elusion licks arbs all over
<Arbac> oh geeee thanks :P
* Arbac jumps on elusion
* Arbac stabs elusion all over
<Arbac> lick that bastard!
<elusion> hey licking is sweet :/
<elusion> it's a way of showing affection stabbing is not a way of showing affection
<elusion> stabbing is a way of a psychotic murderer :/
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6 Jun 2005, 22:58
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#12
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbac
Sign language rocks. It is a true language because it has a formal syntax and formal semantics. It is able to express abstract concepts, and enables people to communicate.
The coolest thing about sign language, is that people that use ASL as their primary form of communication (mainly native signers i.e. people born deaf) actually sign in their sleep!
How cool is that?
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sometimes i have 'nocturnal emissions'
apparently i'm speaking in American Sign Language
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6 Jun 2005, 23:07
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#13
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Powering your life...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 400
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbac
Sign language rocks. It is a true language because it has a formal syntax and formal semantics. It is able to express abstract concepts, and enables people to communicate.
The coolest thing about sign language, is that people that use ASL as their primary form of communication (mainly native signers i.e. people born deaf) actually sign in their sleep!
How cool is that?
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That is pretty nifty.. I actually woke up screaming no the other night.. very unusual for me, normally when i dream, I realise i'm dreaming and then proceed to do all those things i would never do in real life....
__________________
Reality is only a perception.
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6 Jun 2005, 23:09
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#14
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
I love the fact that anyone would call sign language a "scam." I have images of a hoarde of deaf people being featured on Crimewatch now.
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6 Jun 2005, 23:15
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#15
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Powering your life...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 400
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I love the fact that anyone would call sign language a "scam." I have images of a hoarde of deaf people being featured on Crimewatch now.
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You really make me laugh sometimes MM, I can barely type im laughing so much... definately a pos rep and POW nomination..
__________________
Reality is only a perception.
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7 Jun 2005, 00:06
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#16
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:cool:
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 791
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Re: American Sign Language: Utter Scam
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
I would strongly disagree with the belief that language can be demonstrated by successful communication of an idea. If I'm peeing on someone's shoe, I feel that I am quite clearly conveying my utter contempt for them, yet I would not consider myself communicating linguistically. By the same token, such a definition would imply that a dog humping your leg was speaking in American Sign Language fluently, conveying clearly that (A) he is horny and (B) he finds you attractive. I see the "genuine linguistic sign vs. an arbitrary sound/gesture" portayal to be a false dichotomy; something can be an entirely meaningful sign or gesture without having linguistic character.
Yes, the sign language lady was clearly communicating to her audience. And in a similar situation, the listeners may use her gestures to reproduce the same idea. But I think language is something more. People can make silent films which convey thoughts and ideas. I would argue that they do this largely without the use of language (restricting to silent films that didn't have text appear intermittently throughout the film). Someone else, upon seeing one of these films, can use a similar scene in their silent movie to convey a similar idea. But I don't feel that makes it suddenly become 'silent film language.'
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Language can be demonstrated by succesful communication of an idea, but succesful communication of an idea does not necessarily have to be linguistic (e.g your example of peeing on someone elses shoe).
The dictionary defines language as: 'Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols.' I think the important word here is "arbitrary" - i.e based upon individual judgment or preference - just because the person you saw using sign language didn't use the proper signs for "four panels" doesn't mean she's suddenly not using a language at all.
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Danger gleams like sunshine to a brave man's eyes.
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