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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 01:32   #51
mist
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
electrons are at rest on an open DC circuit [ - ========>| |========> + ]
i'd delete this before mark comes back. it'll be better that way.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 01:35   #52
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
electrons are at rest on an open DC circuit [ - ========>| |========> + ]

edit: valence electrons anyways, so calculations of electron rest mass is possible because all rest mass of any electron of any atom be it valence or not is constant unless influenced by an outside force, then it (mass) becomes different
umm, the valance band is just a way of modelling an energy level - as in it's energy level isn't changing.
It's never at rest in the velocity sense of the word.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 01:54   #53
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Re: what is matter?

in my rather limited experience, bonds are better modeled using waves than particles anyway, due to the energy levels etc.

that asside, i've got a masters in electronic engineering, and i know shit about emc as well, so it'll probably be ok.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 01:57   #54
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Re: what is matter?

i hope so, i have one on wednesday on Environmental Protection (a bullshit module - or non-technical as the department call them)
And then next week I have the EMC one and one on Energy Utilisation - i.e Fuel Cells and hybrid vehicles.
Already had 2 crappy exams grr
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 02:02   #55
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Re: what is matter?

never did anything on fuel cells etc. sounds far to practical to be taught on a 'real' course
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 02:08   #56
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I'm an Electronic Engineer. Know anything about Electromagnetic Compatability? I have an exam on it next week, it's a bugger
i did years ago - my current field concentrates on power generation of diesel, steam and gas turbines and magnetic induction systems and related equipment, and also air conditioning and auxiliaries, lighting and power distribution systems so my brain purposely discarded all electronic communications engineering and radio principles.. sorry

good luck on ur exams though
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 02:12   #57
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
never did anything on fuel cells etc. sounds far to practical to be taught on a 'real' course
Are you implying that i'm not doing a real course?
I didn't realise they got more real than this.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 02:29   #58
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Are you implying that i'm not doing a real course?
I didn't realise they got more real than this.
no, was implying that the majority of electronics courses i looked at had little or no practical element to them, tho ironically most included practical programming.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 02:59   #59
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i'd delete this before mark comes back. it'll be better that way.
nah its ok, i wanna hear his view on this
Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
no, was implying that the majority of electronics courses i looked at had little or no practical element to them, tho ironically most included practical programming.
lots of practical elements to them when you use them at work
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 08:46   #60
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
electrons are at rest on an open DC circuit [ - ========>| |========> + ]

edit: valence electrons anyways, so calculations of electron rest mass is possible because all rest mass of any electron of any atom be it valence or not is constant unless influenced by an outside force, then it (mass) becomes different
Electrons have no net drift on an open DC circuit, but they're not at rest unless it's also at 0K, which is impossible.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 11:50   #61
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
no, was implying that the majority of electronics courses i looked at had little or no practical element to them, tho ironically most included practical programming.
well, it is mostly theory. Not much Programming though. I get a M.Eng at the end of this year so I'm happy... I guess.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 14:05   #62
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Exclamation Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
well, it is mostly theory.
I have a little theory:

Mark is a glorious brainbox.

Proof: This thread, and every other science thread that has ever been on GD.

This is my theory.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 15:20   #63
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
This is my theory.
http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/MissAnneElk
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 15:33   #64
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Re: what is matter?

Learning to Fly by Tom Petty?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 15:39   #65
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Re: what is matter?

If you can't play the guitar you don't deserve your name

However, if you learnt to play well and we ever had a meet up and you bought your guitar we could all join in with:
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Where lived a country boy name of Jonny B. Goode...
He never ever learned to read or write so well,
But he could play the guitar like ringing a bell.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 16:00   #66
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Re: what is matter?

I think the moral of the story is to not challenge people to find errors in something you know has errors in.

Or something like that at least.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:11   #67
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think the moral of the story is to not challenge people to find errors in something you know has errors in.
but this is the exact science all instructors use in schools, otherwise we would all be arguing about navel lints and booger hairs.. unless youre referring to GD posters then theres a hint of fact in your statement - but then GD would be as boring as AD if to practice fully the moral..

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I could teach you to play any song* you wanted on guitar in 4 weeks. Seriously.
but learning the songs right away vice learning the basics first will be really bad in the long run i know this because my lord god and saviour is my Ibanez - what kind of guitar do u have?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:14   #68
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I thought you got chucked out of Cambridge in your first year?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:23   #69
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I thought you got chucked out of Cambridge in your first year?
I degraded from Christ's after a term and a half for doing no work. Degrading isn't the same as being sent down or dropping out, as you're still a member of college and return to the course subsequently. However, that's utterly irrelevent, as this is stuff that's covered in the first term. Not that I didn't know it beforehand, of course.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:25   #70
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
but this is the exact science all instructors use in schools, otherwise we would all be arguing about navel lints and booger hairs
What?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:29   #71
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I degraded from Christ's after a term and a half for doing no work. Degrading isn't the same as being sent down or dropping out, as you're still a member of college and return to the course subsequently.
The difference is that you leave before they kick you out?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:31   #72
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
The difference is that you leave before they kick you out?
No, degrading is an action that can only be done at the behest of the college and university. Leaving entirely of your own volition would be 'dropping out', not degrading.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:35   #73
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
What?
the science of "challenging people to find errors in problems imposed" - if there is such a name for this, is still a science by definition
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:37   #74
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
the science of "challenging people to find errors in problems imposed" - if there is such a name for this, is still a science by definition
Well, ignoring that it's not a science, it doesn't really apply. And the obvious implication of my post was 'if you don't want to be argued with'.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 17:56   #75
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Well, ignoring that it's not a science, it doesn't really apply. And the obvious implication of my post was 'if you don't want to be argued with'.
ah! ok big boy <salutes> - ill just nod and agree with you then, dont want to be argued with right now --
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:02   #76
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
ah! ok big boy <salutes> - ill just nod and agree with you then, dont want to be argued with right now --
Just leave it. He likes to prove how clever he is to the rest of GD occasionally. We all know he's intelligent, he just has to make up for his lack of academic qualifications.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:06   #77
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle29uk
Paging anyone who passed A level physics to thread 182961.
i passed the first year, does that count?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:08   #78
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Just leave it. He likes to prove how clever he is to the rest of GD occasionally. We all know he's intelligent, he just has to make up for his lack of academic qualifications.
Oh wow, someone who's never met me suddenly knows all about my personality. I correct people because I don't like incorrect things, not because I need to prove my superiority over them.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:10   #79
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
ah! ok big boy <salutes> - ill just nod and agree with you then, dont want to be argued with right now --
1. It isn't a science. It just isn't.

2. I never said that people had to agree with me, just that one shouldn't produce a challenge to find something wrong when you know that there's something wrong with your argument, and not expect people to pick up on that fact.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:16   #80
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Re: what is matter?

why can't you all just get along? this is all most tiresome

the threads now been derailed into 'semi flames' for no particular reason other than tomkat and mrl dont like each other very much.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:20   #81
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Oh wow, someone who's never met me suddenly knows all about my personality. I correct people because I don't like incorrect things, not because I need to prove my superiority over them.
although you think/know/think-you-know/know-you-know/or-wtf-ever that your superior, you dont need to prove it right? not giving you a hard time here, just want to know more about you - uhm, want to talk about this over dinner tonight? heh..
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:49   #82
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
although you think/know/think-you-know/know-you-know/or-wtf-ever that your superior, you dont need to prove it right? not giving you a hard time here, just want to know more about you - uhm, want to talk about this over dinner tonight? heh..
I'm decidedly above average in everything I've turned my hand to, and demonstratably so.

Oh, and the obvious counter-argument to me posting just to show how smart I am (and it's the same one I mention every time someone says something of this variety) is that, when demonstratably wrong, I accept this.

Quote:
the threads now been derailed into 'semi flames' for no particular reason other than tomkat and mrl dont like each other very much.
I don't see me commenting on TomKat anywhere, do you?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 18:57   #83
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
the threads now been derailed into 'semi flames' for no particular reason other than tomkat and mrl dont like each other very much.
I quite like Mark actually...

He just irritates me when he has to prove to everyone that they're wrong and he's right. We all know he's clever, but he goes to great efforts to turn threads into one-on-one arguments until they get fed up discussing things with him.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 19:07   #84
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I quite like Mark actually...

He just irritates me when he has to prove to everyone that they're wrong and he's right. We all know he's clever, but he goes to great efforts to turn threads into one-on-one arguments until they get fed up discussing things with him.
I wasn't even going to come into this thread until I was challenged to find something wrong with a post. I had considered it answered (by queball, in particular).
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 19:08   #85
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Re: what is matter?

Stop having the last word!
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 19:17   #86
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Re: what is matter?

Ok!

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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 22:48   #87
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm sorry MRL, I know you would love to think that GD is entirely devoted to catering for your intellect and we all post *exclusively* to you, but I like to be considerate and cater for GD as a community of, well, more than you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's an idiotic way of doing things, to be perfectly frank. And, in context, I would say that you're actually incorrect, because you were using the lack of being able to 'see' things in the context of dark matter, and, given that we can observe black holes, I don't think that is a particularly well together put argument.
A black hole is a self-luminous object in the sense that it does emit light, but this light is of a short wavelength and in the form of low-level radiation which does not form part of the visible spectrum, so therefore cannot be detected by the naked eye.

For example, the Uhuru satellitte detected 339 sources of x-rays, one of which was the black hole Cygnus X-1.

But we can “see” the effect that they have- for example look at the “matched pair” (star and black hole) LMC X-3, the star is being whirled around “empty space”, with gas being sucked into this “empty space”.

NOTE: “empty space” is used here to denote and emphasise the fact that a black hole is not visible to the human eye.

Now I disagree with your point concerning light aborting a black hole:

The distance from the singularity (the centre of a black hole, which is infinately dense) to the point of “no return” (the event horizon) is called Schwarschild’s radius. Some black holes have both an outer and an inner event horizon, if light or matter [N.B. this clear distinction is not made to support your argument, but merely to clarify a point and (hopefully) prevent any confusion from arising] reaches the outer event horizon, it will never “escape” the gravitational well that a black hole creates, therefore light that reaches Schwarschild’s radius will never be “seen”. Now, inside the innner event horizon, the spin of the black hole creates a countereactionary force, setting up a region where is very very remotely that light will spiral towards the singularity for the rest of enternity. Yet I think all would consider it “sucked in”, it shall never escape, never be seen, and has quite clearly been affected by a black hole’s gravity, in well, quite a terminal fashion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Light does have a small amount of mass, because it has energy. Inertial mass is the usual term.
Yes, inertial mass may be the "usual term" but invariant mass is the correct and appropiate term. Oh, and read something other than an introduction to physics:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00007/art00101

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Oh, and use x^y to mean x to the power of y. It's standard practice, and makes things look so much nicer.
Now, if you followed the above link, you will notice most of the mathematical symbols are missing, I rarely venture outside mathematica when doing maths on a computer, so I am not familiar with "compromise notation". So apologies.





Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's a bad equation to define momentum with. Use the De Broglie equation.
λ = h / p if you would care to know it the aforementioned equation.... but wait, this is specifically for quantum mechanics, particles and wavelengths, so is entirely appropiate for photons, but wait, why would I use an equation built around the facts concerning photons, momentum and mass to prove well, that a photon's momemtum is the reason it has mass?? Why not, instead reinforce my argument with the standard equation?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Rest mass is the proper term, and every scientific discussion must be conducted with proper terms. Science uses a very precise language just to stop potential confusion; talk about accuracy and precision, and a scientist should understand what two distinct concepts have been mentioned.
Already disscussed. If you would care to read something that goes beyond a basic understanding of physics, invariant mass is the term used.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm not particularly happy with this, as this statement is only true if there's another prerequisite that you haven't mentioned, as, under the given requirements, the box has mean 0 momentum, but it is not true that at every point the system has a net momentum of 0.
To anyone with even the most simplistic grasp of the English language, context and syntax this would have been obvious.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Yes we can, because, if it wasn't, it would have infinite inertial mass, and therefore infinite energy, by the Lorentz Transforms. Anyway, that's immaterial; we can perfectly easily calculate the rest mass of particles that we've never seen at rest, because we have the precise mathematical means to calculate the rest mass from the observations we have made. For example, we have calculated the rest mass of an electron, but electrons are never stationary either.
Oh god. http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v39/i19/p1176_1 need i even bother argue that stationary electrons do exsist? Yes, mathematically it is true, but it is never said because it simply couldn't happen, it is in a photon's very nature to be moving- fundamental quantum mechanics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's not a nice thing about it at all. That's what makes it, as it stands, unable to be called a scientific theory, or even a scientific conjecture. It has no evidence, and, given that more and more people are abandoning it, quite possibly no future if 'good' evidence isn't discovered when the LHC starts operating.
That was sarcasm- I agree with you entirely on this one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Oh sweet jesus. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Any motion creates (a small amount of) mass from the energy. I don't really know how you got from this kind of thing to 'respiration' which is not only the OTHER WAY AROUND, also creates energy from the difference in bond enthalpies between the intial state and its products and not significantly from any mass interactions.
No, no, no. I am not talking about some sort of chemical reaction, hence the use of respiration. Nuclear fission- is not a complete change, it is merely the change of one element into another with the by-product of lots of mass being released.

http://www.wbabin.net/ajay/sharma1.htm

This is the kinda stuff i'm talking about, with every last quark, every last sub-atomic particle vanishing and being converted into energy.

Now, I like discussing things- I like to do it in fashion whereby the associated parties accord each other all due respect, I did to you- but then you felt your arguments *really* didn't carry that much weight, so you proceeded to insult me in an attempt to diminish both myself and my arguments in front of our peers in GD. Make no mistake- I respect you MRL, you really do know your physics, I have been impressed by you on numerous occassions, I have accpeted your corrections, I have accepted that I have been wrong, I have accepted that your knowledge surprasses mine before- and have done so already on this thread [where applicable] and I will be willing to continue this discussion if you can accord me the same level of respect and treat me as an equal, as I treat you. If not, this will probably be my last post.

Oh yes Stew... I am sure GD is more than capable of understanding quantum mechanics. You misunderstood me. I just about understand it, to even begin to reach the knowledge required to *teach* the subject needs post-grad dedication. So how could I *possibly* teach it to GD over the *internet*, no diagrams, no maths etc. Apologies for any offence caused.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 23:18   #88
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
oshi

what does oshi mean?
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 23:20   #89
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
I'm sorry MRL, I know you would love to think that GD is entirely devoted to catering for your intellect and we all post *exclusively* to you, but I like to be considerate and cater for GD as a community of, well, more than you.
Oh wow, you're quoting a post by me and saying that immediately afterwards. How ever did I think you may have been talkign to me.

Quote:
A black hole is a self-luminous object in the sense that it does emit light, but this light is of a short wavelength and in the form of low-level radiation which does not form part of the visible spectrum, so therefore cannot be detected by the naked eye.
I know perfectly well what you're talking about, however, when you're

Quote:
Yet I think all would consider it ?sucked in?, it shall never escape, never be seen, and has quite clearly been affected by a black hole?s gravity, in well, quite a terminal fashion.
Meh, we'll just have to disagree.

Quote:
Yes, inertial mass may be the "usual term" but invariant mass is the correct and appropiate term.
Sorry, that was an error on my part. I meant the opposite of the intertial mass, the name of which has escaped my brain for a moment.

Quote:
Now, if you followed the above link, you will notice most of the mathematical symbols are missing, I rarely venture outside mathematica when doing maths on a computer, so I am not familiar with "compromise notation". So apologies.
Yeah, latex and its ilk are immensely useful. No problem here.

Quote:
To anyone with even the most simplistic grasp of the English language, context and syntax this would have been obvious.
Just making absolutely sure. This whole thing started because of lax language (something that I, unfortunately, have been continuing), after all.

Quote:
Oh god. http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v39/i19/p1176_1 need i even bother argue that stationary electrons do exsist?
Hadn't seen something of that variety before, however, given that I can't access the article I can't really tell whether the nomenclature is merely shorthand or not. You live and learn.

Quote:
Yes, mathematically it is true, but it is never said because it simply couldn't happen, it is in a photon's very nature to be moving- fundamental quantum mechanics.
Different strokes, it appears. I think it's perfectly valid to say that we have proved by contradiction that the photon doesn't have any rest mass.

Quote:
That was sarcasm- I agree with you entirely on this one.
The Guardian (well, the G2) had a large article on String Theory last week. It only managed to get to the fact that it is lacking in evidence, or even structure, a few paragraphs from the end.

It's going to be a (better supported) version of Cold Fusion, isn't it. The hyperbolae of the media, quotes from inside the sciences included, are building it up way too much.

Quote:
No, no, no. I am not talking about some sort of chemical reaction, hence the use of respiration.
Oh sorry, in a fit of blatent irony I completely misinterpreted. I get you.

Quote:
if you can accord me the same level of respect and treat me as an equal
By and large, this is the way I do things. Argue with a person, evaluate the different knowledge bases and move on. I assumed too much from your loosely worded initial post, and that made me misinterpret what you were trying to say otherwise.

Quote:
Oh yes Stew... I am sure GD is more than capable of understanding quantum mechanics. You misunderstood me. I just about understand it, to even begin to reach the knowledge required to *teach* the subject needs post-grad dedication. So how could I *possibly* teach it to GD over the *internet*, no diagrams, no maths etc. Apologies for any offence caused.
Well, it depends. It's pretty trivial to teach some of the upshots of QM, or rather some of the more qualitative results and reasoning (Feynman's sum over paths, for example), and that's probably what he was referring to. It can be discussed in terms that everyone can understand.

You're completely correct when talking about the mathematics, though.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 23:21   #90
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
what does oshi mean?
Abbreviation of 'oh shit', leaving the last letter implied.
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 23:28   #91
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Re: what is matter?

oh! ^_^
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Unread 24 Jan 2005, 23:34   #92
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Re: what is matter?

Its amusing how this thread has degenerated from an implicit argument over language into an explicit one.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 05:59   #93
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Re: what is matter?

can someone explain to me why i become an inch shorter when i get a boner? MrL? thermo? maybe one of you physicists can answer this..
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 08:43   #94
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
can someone explain to me why i become an inch shorter when i get a boner? MrL? thermo? maybe one of you physicists can answer this..
Well, human beings aren't kept up by a skeletal system; this is a myth. In actuallity, you and I are supported by a series of liquid or gas filled bladders, the phase in each one being determined by how much protection this area needs. When you get a boner, you're removing the liquid from some of the bladders, in order to increase turgidity. The major consquence of this is that the bladders compress somewhat, with a corresponding loss in height.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 11:52   #95
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm decidedly above average in everything I've turned my hand to
posting on the internet.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 14:39   #96
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Re: what is matter?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
posting on the internet.
I'm great at posting on the internet. See, I'm doing it now!
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 15:49   #97
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Well, human beings aren't kept up by a skeletal system; this is a myth. In actuallity, you and I are supported by a series of liquid or gas filled bladders, the phase in each one being determined by how much protection this area needs. When you get a boner, you're removing the liquid from some of the bladders, in order to increase turgidity. The major consquence of this is that the bladders compress somewhat, with a corresponding loss in height.
cool beans!! although i was expecting a post from you that resembles a 'flame' or something to that effect to make me look like a moron.. hehe
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 16:13   #98
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm great at posting on the internet. See, I'm doing it now!
for some reason, i read this as posing :/
i blame the purple hat.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 18:54   #99
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Re: what is matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
for some reason, i read this as posing :/
i blame the purple hat.
Pimpin' Nixon approves of posing.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 22:07   #100
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Re: what is matter?

MRL, :-)

Have a reputation point for being nice.
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