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Unread 23 Aug 2006, 23:52   #1
Marv
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dyslexia

Ok so amoungst the PA Team and Support Team my spelling has become to be known as abit of a joke. However when I find myself writing things (and typing ofcs) I find that as far as my brain is concerned when I read things I am correct, that or I tend to get letters the wrong way round or not enough of them when there is a letter repeated (like tt in 'letter').

When I was a kid at school in year 7 I was told I might have mild dyslexia but not that bad. I have 20/20 vision says my recent eye test (1 month) ago, yet I am starting to again have all the same problems I had when I was younger.

Does anyone else suffer from this kind of thing and is there anything I can do or places I can contact to try to sus out / fix whats wrong with me?

I don't mind the piss takes on the spelling but it has made me realise there maybe an underlying problem.

Any thoughts anyone?
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 00:00   #2
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Re: dyslexia

I suffer from Dyslexia, Dyspraxia and a High Level Language disorder. If you go to your Universities Special Needs office when uni starts up again, they can give you the tests for it to see whats up
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 00:09   #3
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Re: dyslexia

ah cool thanks Smudge. I got discovered as a potential problem when I started secondary school pruely via tests they did on all new pupils. Spelling / maths / problem solving etc..

Thanks for the info. I'll go check it out :-)
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 00:56   #4
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Re: dyslexia

So is dyslexia a requirement for support team then, or just a strange coincidence?
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 00:57   #5
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Re: dyslexia

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Originally Posted by jt25man
So is dyslexia a requirement for support team then, or just a strange coincidence?
strange coincidence at best :-)
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:02   #6
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Re: dyslexia

I used to suffer from dyslexia.

my dear darling teachers used to run themselves ragged with worry over it

now I can spell.

these things take time.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:03   #7
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I used to suffer from dyslexia.

my dear darling teachers used to run themselves ragged with worry over it

now I can spell.

these things take time.
So was it something that just sort of fixed its self or was it something you worked at and developed?
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:03   #8
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Re: dyslexia

I will admit it is something that is starting to worry me slighty :s
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:09   #9
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
So was it something that just sort of fixed its self or was it something you worked at and developed?
it was something i worked at because i felt bad every time I made a spelling mistake.

I didn't try in school because then it didn't matter. after school it mattered because retards would try to dismiss my point because it was incorrectly spelt.

We all just need the proper motivation.

We need to stop pretending that correct spelling comes easier to others than ourselves: it always takes effort. The word dyslexic means - 'I'm never going to try because I will always fail'. It's a useless word. A very destructive word.

Spelling is like dieting. There are no quick fixes and there is no excuse for not trying.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:13   #10
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it was something i worked at because i felt bad every time I made a spelling mistake.

I didn't try in school because then it didn't matter. after school it mattered because retards would try to dismiss my point because it was incorrectly spelt.

We all just need the proper motivation.

We need to stop pretending that correct spelling comes easier to others than ourselves: it always takes effort. The word dyslexic means - 'I'm never going to try because I will always fail'. It's a useless word. A very destructive word.

Spelling is like dieting. There are no quick fixes and there is no excuse for not trying.
This probably sounds as retarded as it is, but are there any like "exercises" I can to do work at it. Alot of the time I spell a word wrong but don't see it until someone points it out to me. This being bacause I read letters backwards so it looks right when its wrong. Is there anything that can be done about it that I can work on myself?

Spelling wise I do try my best, taking forever, but I am trying
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:16   #11
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
This probably sounds as retarded as it is, but are there any like "exercises" I can to do work at it. Alot of the time I spell a word wrong but don't see it until someone points it out to me. This being bacause I read letters backwards so it looks right when its wrong. Is there anything that can be done about it that I can work on myself?

Spelling wise I do try my best, taking forever, but I am trying
the only exercise that worked for me was listening to those annoying gits who correct you..

when someone points out a mistake you've made get pissed off: get angry. then you'll remember not to make it again

that's how I learned (keep learning)
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:18   #12
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
the only exercise that worked for me was listening to those annoying gits who correct you..

when someone points out a mistake you've made get pissed off: get angry. then you'll remember not to make it again

that's how I learned (keep learning)
cool - thanks mate, appreciate the advice and help, its got me all worried this has :s
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:29   #13
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Re: dyslexia

A Cambridge University study concluded that it doesn't matter what order the letters in a word are arranged. The important thing is that the first and last letter are in the right place. The rest doesn't matter. This is because the human mind does not read every letter by itself, but the word as a whole.

For example:

Aoccrding to a reserach at Crmbaidge Univsreity, it dosen't mtater in waht oredr the letters in a wrod are. The olny ipmortant tihng is taht the frist and lsat lteter be in the rihgt palce.

The rset can be a tatol mses and you can sitll raed it wuthoit prlboem. Tihs is bscauee the huamn mnid deos not raed erevy letter by iteslf, but the wrod as a wohle.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 01:31   #14
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Re: dyslexia

thats unrelated to dyslexia qazok.


besides, within pateam its always been called a case of zeusitus. Its actually quite contagious - just about everyone in there has suffered from it at one point or another.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 02:05   #15
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Re: dyslexia

it was wakeyitus before it was zeusitus
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 02:07   #16
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
A Cambridge University study
I taught at that university.

I've yet to see you show me any respect.

until you do. keep quiet.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 08:07   #17
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Re: dyslexia

'Dyslexia' is a very silly idea. Take any average group of kids and it isnt really surprising that youre going to have a high degree of variance in their abilities; some might struggle to grasp arithmetic, whereas others may be terrible at drawing, and others might have reading problems. Students should be ideally be given extra attention in the areas where they are struggling and encouraged to work harder to develop these skills, but pretending that there's some innate 'learning disorder' holding them back helps noone. I doubt that there's any real difference between struggling when it comes to reading ('dyslexia') and struggling in mathematics.

I was always very bad at 'practical' subjects while at school, and my drawing/crafts/painting/etc skills were signficantly worse than those around me, despite my english/maths being a lot better. It would be stupid to invent some 'practical ability learning disorder' to describe this though - I was just good at some things and not at others, like most people.



Quite apart from the scientific dubiousness of the dyslexia idea, youve also go tthe potentially serious problem that having students and their teachers believing that they're suffering from some innate 'disorder' is likely to have an adverse effect on their work ("I'll never be any good at maths so theres no point even trying").



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
We need to stop pretending that correct spelling comes easier to others than ourselves: it always takes effort. The word dyslexic means - 'I'm never going to try because I will always fail'. It's a useless word. A very destructive word.
I think its almost certainly true that correct spelling comes easier to some people than others. Different people tend to be 'naturally' better at different things; I didnt put any extra effort into maths at primary/secondary school and rarely bothered doing homework or any extra-curriculur practice, yet I was still a lot better at it than those around me (including those who worked harder than I did). On the converse side, I was never great at playing musical instruments, whereas some people show ridiculously high amounts of talent in this area from an early age. It's highly unlikely that I could ever match the piano skill of a child music prodigy, regardless of how much effort I put in (music is an interesting example, because there's such a blatently obvious difference in 'natural' talent evident in childhood between certain great musicians and normal people). It's hard to say how much 'natural' talent matters in most areas though, because I do think people have an unfortunate tendancy to believe that others are only good at things because of some innate magically ability they have rather than as a result of hard work (its easier on the ego to believe people are better than you due to luck rather than because they put more effort in).

For most skills, it probably isnt important whether they come 'naturally' to you, which is probably why noone has bothered inventing a disorder to cover them. Not being to draw or play the violin is unlikely to have a serious effect on your life, so most people are content to just say "I'm not very good at art/music" and make no effort to develop their skills. But when it comes to something as important as reading/writing, you cant really do this; basic literacy is fairly important in most areas of life, so most people should be encouraged to keep trying their best to improve their skills in this area, even if they are 'naturally' less talented here than the average person and have to work a lot harder than others in order to reach a decent level.


(I've put the word 'natural' in scare quotes all through this post because I dont want it to sound like I'm saying that this sort of ability is necessarily determined by genetics rather than upbringing. But regardless of the initial cause, it does seem to be fairly obvious in many people by the time they're midway through primary school).

Last edited by Nodrog; 24 Aug 2006 at 08:56.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 09:49   #18
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Students should be ideally be given extra attention in the areas where they are struggling and encouraged to work harder to develop these skills, but pretending that there's some innate 'learning disorder' holding them back helps noone.
Maybe with young children, but one of the things I always found depressing about school is that I was forced to spend a lot of time working on subjects I seemed to have zero ability at (art & music). Obviously it's probably not a good idea to let people specialise completely at the age of three, but likewise it's frustrating to have your time wasted endlessly trying to get you up to some mythical "equal" level with everyone else when that's not really going to happen. Of course this is not to deny the importance of basic literacy and numeracy skills.
Quote:
It would be stupid to invent some 'practical ability learning disorder' to describe this though - I was just good at some things and not at others, like most people.
Yeah, although I suspect the main reason terms like 'dyslexia' get invented is to combat (or into) some notion of "general intelligence" which has plagued enquiry in this area for a number of years.

I think in general there's no ingherent problem with inventing terms for being especially bad at drawing / writing / reading / maths. Yes, people can react by treating these terms as excuses why they're not very good at x, but that's a problem which doesn't seem insurmountable.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 10:23   #19
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Re: dyslexia

Well im a trainee teacher, and I personally feel that there is to much labeliing not with dsylexia but with ADHD and asperges syndrone. I think these are very real to some people as marv was saying, but to others it is simply a case of your aggro and misbehaving lets give you a title so its not your fault.

Also as Dante said people are good at some things and not good at others, I was good at science and maths hence im teaching them, i was honestly terrible at art, It looked like i was epileptic when i tried to draw so it was a waste of time me doing them lessons as simply put i was never going to improve, I accepted this so should the teachers instead of trying to label me with some disability
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 11:05   #20
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Re: dyslexia

so basically i'm just a retard? :s
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 11:09   #21
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Re: dyslexia

no not at all marv, i simply said there is people who get labeled to confrom them into an acceptable society. Your not one of them, also you can get these cool things from doctors, its effectively like a stress ball, you squeze it with whichever hand you dont write with so when you do write its promotes concentration and higer learning when your writing so you make less mistakes.

A few kids at the school i teach at use them it seems to help them, eventually you stop squeezing the stress ball and you write/type perfectlly

just an idea

edited for my ironic and accidental typos Lp
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 11:56   #22
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Re: dyslexia

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Originally Posted by aestuos
its promotes concentration and higer learning when your writing so you make less mistakes.

I'm not comfortable with you teaching.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 12:14   #23
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Re: dyslexia

TomKat is better than you aestuos, if we want someone to talk about teaching, we will ask him because he is our chosen expert, not you filthy takeover wannabe teacher.

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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 12:58   #24
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Re: dyslexia

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Originally Posted by KaneED
TomKat is better than you aestuos, if we want someone to talk about teaching, we will ask him because he is our chosen expert, not you filthy takeover wannabe teacher.

TOMKAT FOREVER AESTUOS NEVER

I never said i was an expert, in fact i stressed being a trainee teacher. Also i never said that my opinion was correct.

And to be perfectly honest KaneED, marv had a problem, i sugggested a way which might make it better, ripping my idea down is a little immature to be honest i was simply trying to help.

Also its good TomKat is a teacher, but saying that im a filthy takeover is unfair, you have no idea how good my teaching skills are so please dont comment on them. the country im in England struggles to find physics teacher and i believe the job i do is of a high quality and im helping people which is more than i can say for the majorety.

Basically dont comment on something which you know nothing about, ask TomKat, its a hard job teaching so dont slag people who do it, its hard enough.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 13:24   #25
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestuos
I never said i was an expert, in fact i stressed being a trainee teacher. Also i never said that my opinion was correct.

And to be perfectly honest KaneED, marv had a problem, i sugggested a way which might make it better, ripping my idea down is a little immature to be honest i was simply trying to help.

Also its good TomKat is a teacher, but saying that im a filthy takeover is unfair, you have no idea how good my teaching skills are so please dont comment on them. the country im in England struggles to find physics teacher and i believe the job i do is of a high quality and im helping people which is more than i can say for the majorety.

Basically dont comment on something which you know nothing about, ask TomKat, its a hard job teaching so dont slag people who do it, its hard enough.
I hope your teaching skills are better than your spelling/grammar skills
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 13:38   #26
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouRiQueT
I hope your teaching skills are better than your spelling/grammar skills

My spelling and grammar is better when im not in a hurry, also i know english is important in all sublects but im a science teacher not an A level english teacher.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 13:43   #27
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestuos
My spelling and grammar is better when im not in a hurry, also i know english is important in all sublects but im a science teacher not an A level english teacher.

So the ?sublect? you teach is science? So proper spelling of scientific terms is not important in the ?sublect? of science then? I'd also hope that because you're a teacher you would have a decent command of the English language regardless of whether you're in a rush or not...


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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 14:03   #28
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouRiQueT
I hope your teaching skills are better than your spelling/grammar skills
Hes better than me.

Go and read my announcements on the announcements forum..and noitce they have been edited several times

Thanks for the info aestuos - not sure how I would use a stres ball when I type, but I assume I use it whrn writing and it then transfers and bebefits both.

Feeling slightly better about the whole thing now :-)
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 14:13   #29
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Re: dyslexia

well you're not a teacher.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 14:16   #30
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Re: dyslexia

spelling is overrated, as long as the argument or thought behind the written work is interesting i really couldn't care less if it was written in text speak. Admitedly i have a prejudice against text speak because anecdotal evidence suggests people who use it are mongs but i can't rule out someone syng somfing rly cleva bt riting leik dis.

My mum has a real problem with spelling, she can write really well but just can't grasp spelling. It doesn't bother her in the slightest she uses a spellchecker to make sure everything is ok.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 14:42   #31
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
cool - thanks mate, appreciate the advice and help, its got me all worried this has :s
Not that you've made many mistakes, probably far fewer than I do, but to me you actually come off with somebody who probably could have a slight case of dyslexia.

As opposed to most people who complain about being 'dyslectic', you actually have decent sentence structure etc. I mean, the wast majority of people complaining about being dyslectic use horrible long sentences without punctuation. They simply write like they speak. They lack practice in writing, and most likely haven't read all that much either, so they have no idea what makes text easy to read. Given their lack of practice, it's no wonder they suck
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestuos
My spelling and grammar is better when im not in a hurry, also i know english is important in all sublects but im a science teacher not an A level english teacher.
Example of horrible sentence, which probably would have sounded ok if spoken, but reads horribly.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 14:47   #32
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouRiQueT

So the “sublect” you teach is science? So proper spelling of scientific terms is not important in the “sublect” of science then? I'd also hope that because you're a teacher you would have a decent command of the English language regardless of whether you're in a rush or not...

go away.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 14:53   #33
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Not that you've made many mistakes, probably far fewer than I do, but to me you actually come off with somebody who probably could have a slight case of dyslexia.

As opposed to most people who complain about being 'dyslectic', you actually have decent sentence structure etc. I mean, the wast majority of people complaining about being dyslectic use horrible long sentences without punctuation. They simply write like they speak. They lack practice in writing, and most likely haven't read all that much either, so they have no idea what makes text easy to read. Given their lack of practice, it's no wonder they suck
If your refering to announcements bear in mind they get spell checked and grammer checked by the whole PATeam and most of my support team for me. and if your refering to here, i dont know :s maybe a good day. I tend to be worse on irc as you tend not to read stuff before you post it.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 15:06   #34
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
go away.
no.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 15:18   #35
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouRiQueT
no.
Please?
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 15:19   #36
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
Please?
what the **** is your problem?
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 15:27   #37
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouRiQueT
what the **** is your problem?
You saw the rep comment.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 16:24   #38
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Re: dyslexia

i just lost 130 rep points for not laughing or summet hmmm. Anyway i think any stress ball should work, but the best thing is to go doctors and ask them for advice, something can normally be done to help if not he will explain that its a common problem for people.

at least your trying to sort it out which is all that counts marv gl
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 16:30   #39
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Re: dyslexia

gd is one of those places where if you miss the joke, and continue to post defensively you get punished usually.
either via humiliation, or neg reps - often a combination of both.
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 19:00   #40
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestuos
i just lost 130 rep points for not laughing or summet hmmm. Anyway i think any stress ball should work, but the best thing is to go doctors and ask them for advice, something can normally be done to help if not he will explain that its a common problem for people.

at least your trying to sort it out which is all that counts marv gl
Thanks alot, I'll make a docs apointmnet and see what they say.

Everyone's help is much appreciated :-)
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Unread 24 Aug 2006, 23:40   #41
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Re: dyslexia

Is everyone deliberately making spelling mistakes in this thread because its title is 'dyslexia'?
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 14:44   #42
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunderbunny
Is everyone deliberately making spelling mistakes in this thread because its title is 'dyslexia'?
I'm not
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 15:36   #43
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Re: dyslexia

Marv, as suggested, see your uni senco and they will be able to do certain tests etc.
dyslexia and dispraxia are very real, but unfortunetly, for most people, its not fully understood.
Indeed, I come across profesisonals every day that simply do not understand exactly what it is, and how to deal with it.

For instance, it is widley assumed it comes down to simply reading, but this is widely incorrect. You will find high incidences of individuals having difficulties dressing themslves.
Whilst sight IS tested, its not genrally the sight that is being tested, but dominant eye/hand, and again, these will offer differ in Dyslexic children.

There are exercises you can do, though I believe its not been proved they can aid an improvement, mentally I personally believe they can. Its all based on cross over activites that use both sides of the brain, to strengthen the link between both left and right sides.

Whilst I admit I dont have any experience working with adults of which dyslexia and dyspraxia is an issue, i ahve worked with children with the same condition for 10 years now, both in supporting the children concerned, and testing all children who are suspected of having any learning issues.

Feel free to dop me a pm, or you can find me in #poker
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 15:51   #44
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Maybe with young children, but one of the things I always found depressing about school is that I was forced to spend a lot of time working on subjects I seemed to have zero ability at (art & music). Obviously it's probably not a good idea to let people specialise completely at the age of three, but likewise it's frustrating to have your time wasted endlessly trying to get you up to some mythical "equal" level with everyone else when that's not really going to happen. Of course this is not to deny the importance of basic literacy and numeracy skills.
I enjoyed the subjects I was less good at at school, I didn't find it particularly frustrating that others were better than me. In one way it seemed almost fair to me because they (at primary school anyway) weren't better than me at much else (academically). I also didn't really find it frustrating and it seems odd to me that you would think you did, is it that frustrating that your pictures don't turn out as well as some of the other kids'? In that situation I can't see anything unsatisfactory with just trying your best (however good that may be). Maybe it was different at your school but the teacher's didn't mind as long as we tried and it never really felt like a waste of time. If anything the areas in which you are worse at are more important than the ones you are weak in. What's the point of sitting in a 2 hour maths lesson when you could have answered any question relevant to it after the first 10 minutes and you have to sit around waiting for the teacher to explain it to the slow kids? I'd rather do some bad paintings or bang tunelessly on a cow bell.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 16:08   #45
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
is it that frustrating that your pictures don't turn out as well as some of the other kids'?
No, of course not. It's frustrating because I had zero interest in art. Perhaps this was a reaction to not being as good as others, but whatever the reason the whole thing was incredibly boring, and I could have been becoming genuinely good at maths instead of trying desperately to be "average" at everything.
Quote:
What's the point of sitting in a 2 hour maths lesson when you could have answered any question relevant to it after the first 10 minutes and you have to sit around waiting for the teacher to explain it to the slow kids?
"Independent learning". There's no need to wait for the "slow kids", in fact there's no reason why everyone should be learning the same subject at the same time.

Basically I consider it a waste that I had to sit around learning (or trying to learn) things that I'll never use, whereas the skills I use every day (e.g. computer skills) were atrophying. Maybe it wouldn't have worked like this, but if you add up all the hours I spent doing art, or music or German and converted that into more science / maths / IT lessons I think my education would have gone better.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 16:21   #46
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No, of course not. It's frustrating because I had zero interest in art. Perhaps this was a reaction to not being as good as others, but whatever the reason the whole thing was incredibly boring, and I could have been becoming genuinely good at maths instead of trying desperately to be "average" at everything..
I guess I enjoyed art more than you.

But there is a difference between everyone trying to be average at everything and everyone just trying their best at everything, I don't think I ever said people should "try to be average".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
"Independent learning". There's no need to wait for the "slow kids", in fact there's no reason why everyone should be learning the same subject at the same time.

Basically I consider it a waste that I had to sit around learning (or trying to learn) things that I'll never use, whereas the skills I use every day (e.g. computer skills) were atrophying. Maybe it wouldn't have worked like this, but if you add up all the hours I spent doing art, or music or German and converted that into more science / maths / IT lessons I think my education would have gone better.
Why are you putting a greater value on science and maths than you are on subjects like art and music? Just because you found those particular ones boring? I think they probably have specialisation at about the right age tbh, any time before that (about 13 I believe, or at least it was 13 for me) and you're not really a rational actor and so shouldn't be allowed to discard things you don't particularly like. Firstly because you may yet develop and interest in them. Think of all the people who "get into" art and music after they reach maturity for example, perhaps if they had continued studying it they would have liked it earlier and I imagine they would have liked to be "better" at it and wished they had got into it earlier. Secondly because the things that they teach you about the world are valuable, whether you particularly enjoyed them or not, I still learnt things in art and music classes (and the classes I didn't like even (PE!)) that I consider valuable.

I'm with you on the German though.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 16:33   #47
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
But there is a difference between everyone trying to be average at everything and everyone just trying their best at everything, I don't think I ever said people should "try to be average".
No, but it's implied. In a rational society I don't think we would spend so much of our time as children comparing ourselves with others (a natural response to marked tests, grades, etc). And there it might not be such an issue. But here, there is the continued idea you should be trying to catch up. Bollocks to that, everyone should be free to puruse their own interests.
Quote:
Why are you putting a greater value on science and maths than you are on subjects like art and music?
Because I enjoyed them. And because they have proved more useful in my career. And from the age of about 8 I've known I wanted to work in computers and despite having done two non-IT degrees I've basically ended up working in IT. That won't apply to everyone of course, which is why they should be able to choose what they want to do. I would never want to force anyone to learn the things I like, I just ask for the same to apply in reverse.
Quote:
I think they probably have specialisation at about the right age tbh, any time before that (about 13 I believe, or at least it was 13 for me) and you're not really a rational actor
I think specialisation, in the sense you mean, is only ever bad when it closes doors. I think people should have the freedom to study what they want from a very early age. Not discard things permanently, but choose which book they want to read, what picture they want to draw, what game they want to play almost as soon as they are capable of making choices at all. I don't see any problem with a kid completely disregarding a subject for a period so long as they always have the option of going back. It's only the rigidity of the current education system which makes that very difficult to achieve. To me a perfect classroom would be somewhere where children turned up, chose their activity for the day / week / year, being coached where appropriate by someone who had a genuine love of learning.

But even on a practical level (ignoring the morality of freedom) forcing people to study things they don't want to learn doesn't really seem to work anyway. Maybe a limited number of people need that sort of coercion, but I doubt it applies to the majority. I might have liked things like art or music or PE, if I didn't have some ****s forcing me to do it.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 16:50   #48
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I think specialisation, in the sense you mean, is only ever bad when it closes doors. I think people should have the freedom to study what they want from a very early age. Not discard things permanently, but choose which book they want to read, what picture they want to draw, what game they want to play almost as soon as they are capable of making choices at all. I don't see any problem with a kid completely disregarding a subject for a period so long as they always have the option of going back. It's only the rigidity of the current education system which makes that very difficult to achieve. To me a perfect classroom would be somewhere where children turned up, chose their activity for the day / week / year, being coached where appropriate by someone who had a genuine love of learning.
I'm not sure something like that could work. Most children would just play games all day, if they were given the option. I know me and my schoolmates would have done. I guess some would paint all the time, but would they leave school literate? What if they were rubbish painters too, effectively wasting their entire school career? Obviously that's an extreme example, but there would be far more occurrences of children leaving school ill-equipped to deal with the world simply because they didn't possess the breadth of knowledge which we do, because we were forced to do it.

Not to mention the fact that children can't really make informed decisions as they're only proto-sentient (i made up a stupid word! \o/).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But even on a practical level (ignoring the morality of freedom) forcing people to study things they don't want to learn doesn't really seem to work anyway. Maybe a limited number of people need that sort of coercion, but I doubt it applies to the majority
It applied to me, it has applied to an awful lot of people I've met. Kids, by and large, don't want to be at school, or at least they would rather be doing other things.

What do you mean by "doesn't seem to work"? It worked with me, I didn't enjoy any of my science lessons really, but I can still recall large chunks of them. Teaching people that don't want to learn certainly isn't as easy as teaching people that do, but it can be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I might have liked things like art or music or PE, if I didn't have some ****s forcing me to do it.
If you hadn't had someone forcing you to do it, would you have done it at all?
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 17:12   #49
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Re: dyslexia

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Not wishing to tread on Dante's toes here, but when you say "just play games" there is a value judgment there that video games players get upset at often enough. It is not right to suggest that games are just mental chewing gum with no inherent mental value..
I wouldn't say they're a less worthwhile activity, obviously games are a crucial part of a child's socialisation etc. Just that if they played games all the time, and not structured teaching games either (and they were never really very much fun were they?), then they wouldn't get nearly as much useful knowledge out of school as they would otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Also perhaps as you suggest children don't want to be at school because of the pressure they are put under to do things they don't want to do. Children congregate freely under supervision all the time.
Well OK, perhaps they would be more likely to go to school than they are now in the situation Dante described, so you can forget that point if you like. However that still doesn't address the fact that much of their school time would be spent doing things less worthwhile, or at least too unbalanced. Again, if a child cannot write properly (and some people take a LOT of practice at this and really don't like doing it, I went to a normal primary school, I remember) then I believe that the educational system has done them a disservice. Especially if it allowed them to pursue less useful avenues (e.g pretty much any other subject).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I think also Deepflow that as a (once) motivated capable middleclass boy you might not necessarily be a representative sample of childrens experience. I always regarded some subjects with mild distain, but that didn't mean I couldn't get grades in them, but then I was (am) a swotty know-it-all wanker. Remember that something like half the children in the UK DONT get 5 or more GCSEs.
I was never motivated, I don't know what gave you that idea. I didn't particularly like school at the time either, and if you're getting that picture of my childhood years then it is incorrect. I have just come to the conclusion since then that a lot of the stuff that I found boring is actually useful, as well as the stuff I didn't. Generally I didn't try to get good grades either (if by *try* you mean do any homework/coursework), but I normally did the classwork and at least tried to pay attention (more in my early years of school than by the time I got to GCSEs though, I think perhaps I did do too many of those) and in hindsight I think I have benefited from it, even though I didn't enjoy it at the time.
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Unread 25 Aug 2006, 17:18   #50
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Re: dyslexia

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
I don't think forcing education down children's throats is a good method. children are naturally keen to learn, to my mind it's the schooling system that creates an anti-education mega meme. forcing kids to school, forcing kids to study subjects they have no interest in, forcing them to measure there worth in society through exams and then forcing them to do it with children who have different interests and will probably end up as a disruptive nuisance creates quite a lot of friction.
it's hardly suprising you'd want to play games when the alternative (academic study) is offered in such a context.
I guess I just think that kid's should be forced, whereas you think it damages them, I think it's necessary in order to get them to learn, or at least to learn the right things. You can say that forcing them is wrong all you like, but I have given examples of times when not doing this would be disastrous for the education of the child, and these would be fairly commonplace in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emo
by telling them their life is ....ed if they don't remember it? :/
I'm not aware of teaching methods, I am just the product of them.
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