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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 13:39   #1
qebab
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Equality

The point I will try to make in this thread might not apply to other countries than Norway, but I'm interested in hearing wether it does.

In Norway, the labour party has won most elections the last 100 years, and have been in control of the government for maybe 85 of those years. I am not sure wether this is why things are as they are, or if it is norwegian mentality that makes it so. Maybe it's even something else, that I didn't think about.

You see, over here, equality has always meant very much. This might sound good at first, but it isn't always so. Now, this spring was my last in norwegian school system, and I'm going to the university to study after I have had my military service now. Since it was our last spring, there have been a lot of people asking us questions, and giving us paper forms to fill out. The goal of these surveys were to find out how what we thought about school after being there for twelve years. The questions we were asked eventually got me thinking, and I remember a lot of situations those past twelve years where I'd rather equality was not the goal.

Gymnastics would be a good example, seeing as it's one of the subjects where people are very different in many senses. It would nearly always be teamgames, and if some individuals excelled - then they were told to be more of a teamplayer. "Don't be egocentric, let X have the ball!". Individuals who were good, were often taken off the pitch, so those who were mediocre would have a chance to feel like they were doing good. As a result of this, the gymnastics were never about excelling, it was about keeping yourself on the pitch. I'm sure people can see why this isn't necessarely good (You would see the same on football teams in the region, everyone were supposed to play where they wanted to, and noone would play any longer than others).

Maths is another example. When I was younger, maths was my favorite subject, and my homework was always done in time, and I did well on all tests. If I got 85%, or 90% points on a test, I would be given a pat on the back, and the teacher would proceed to tell me I was doing good. He was obviously satisfied - wether I was or not, was irrelevant. He would then go on to help pupils who didn't have any talent or interest of the subject - to get the average up. The educational system in Norway measures the success of schools in average grades. The grade system is 1-6, where 1 is failed, and 6 is the best. The average would be perhaps 3.5, for a school, usually. Seeing as it is easier to get a student from 2, to 4, than from 5 to 6, teachers are usually forced to prioritise pupils with lower grades, who either just don't care, or have problems that stems from other sources. This leads to "top notch" pupils not getting any help, and largely losing interest. I was lucky enough to have a teacher who had other methods the last two years, and managed to extend to my limits, but mostly if you do good, you'll be given a pat on the back and told you're doing good.

Why would this be a problem? Well, when you're concealed in school the teachers control your environment to a large extent - this is not how it works in "real life". Because of this way of working, a lot of sharp and talented individuals lose interest, and become merely average. The average grades are improving, but we see fewer, and fewer really talented people each year. Football is an example of a sport that is suffering because of this. We have a lot of well organised teams, but all the players that are creative, and can settle a match on their own on a good day are foreigners (With the exception of 3 players, from the top of my head). I think this an effect of how the system treats people in their youth.

But people aren't identical - of course you should put the team first, but you aren't the team. You're an outstanding individual, noone is quite like you. When the government sets themselves a goal such as; Maths students should average 4. Will they be happy if everyone eventually gets 4, and there are no longer any 5's and 6's?* If this continues, I think the society here will become dull and boring eventually.

Thoughts about this? Is this so other places also, are there any positive effects that outweights the negative one? What should be done to solve this problem? Or is there no problem at all?






* I don't think it could ever go that far, but due to people who either don't have any interest, or people who don't have any talent for subjects being prioritised 100% some places, the real talents will go lost when they lose interest when trying to learn next years curiculum alone. I know I did, until I picked it up again two years ago.
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Last edited by qebab; 4 Jun 2006 at 19:04.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 14:05   #2
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Re: Equality

It comes down to your analysis of what makes a good government. Now obviously what you appear to have outlined seems to be a fairly extreme example but the general question remains over what are the priorities of the government, or rather what should they be. Essentially the approach of many states over the past sixty to seventy years has been a reaction to the nature of democracy, that is "idiots get the same number of votes and there's a hell of a lot more of them". The further your country tends towards a socialist approach in terms of healthcare and education, and I don't mean universal healthcare and education I mean what qebab outlined in education and giving the same priority to different patients, the less people will want to let this go.

Personally I don't think the positives of it outweigh the negatives and I support a minimalist, individual responsibility orientated, ideal-market-inspired approach.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 14:59   #3
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
The educational system in Norway measures the success of schools in average grades. The grade system is 1-6, where 1 is failed, and 6 is the best.
Most education systems are analysed this way, I'd say (although in the UK they do seem to also collect data on the number of kids getting the top grades). But the issue here is not really one of equality, but one of the stupidity of targets. It's a fairly common theme in government policy - managing complex systems like health services or national education systems is hard, and it's notoriously difficult to get a good idea of how things are going. You can ask individual teachers, perhaps school heads and they can probably tell if you their class is better/worse than a year ago. But once you get past that sort of level it's much harder to get a 'feel' for it, and so we have these sorts of objective measures (and of course targets). If you set an organisation a target that they must meet, they will of course attempt to meet it, but not necessarily in a sane way. As I've mentioned before there's the old (probably untrue) example of the Soviet Union shoe factory which was given the target of producing a million shoes. So it did. It produced a million left shoes rendering the output basically useless. But it met the target.

Anyway, there's a lot that could be said on this topic but more generally I'd say that there are associated costs & benefits to any sort of 'national philosophy'. By pursuing equality (in a seemingly fairly irrational manner) you might indeed be stunting sporting genius (there's no way of testing this, but let's presume that it's true). And so you aren't going to get the sort of creative genius that, say, the Brazilian or Argentinian slums seem to produce every once in a while.

But then again I'm presuming there's a lot more random murders in Sao Paulo then there are in Oslo. Obviously that's not a fair comparison, but the point is that if you increased the amount of inequality you might find you had better footballers but an overall worse society to live in. Not that I'm defending these policies per se, they seem rather bizarre, but I suspect they are the natural extension of other (mainly authoritarian) ideas. In general though I am unsure why the citizens of a country should actually care if "they" (as a nation) are any good at sports.

But looking at education from another angle, if you look at the United States , I doubt many would deny they have some top class colleges (Harvard, MIT, etc) who are second to none in the provision of elite education, research and so on. But by all accounts the rest of the countries education system isn't so good and indeed we hear various horror stories about the provision of education in, say, poverty stricken inner city neighbourhoods (not that this is necessarily linked much to the first point). But does it matter? What are we trying to achieve? A balanced generally well educated populace or some sort of elite?

Fortunately I do not believe that these questions are either/or but if they were, what would we want? It's better to have a bunch of geniuses because they'll be the ones who will cure global warming, right? Well, possibly, but this is not particularly straight forward. It might be that the big issues of our day (climate change, AIDS, energy use, etc) will need to be solved from both ends - both scientific breakthroughs but also cultural adaptations. Looking at infection rates of AIDS (for instance) the big wins seem to have come mainly from educating people on the ground, not some uber cure.

Speaking generally : Yes of course people are different. That's the wonderful diversity of the human condition. But egalatarianism doesn't deny that. In fact, most sane egalatarians are open to the idea of various differences in capacity between people. Even if you take some radical Bell Curve position of genetic inheritability of intelligence and racial differences in IQ and so on as 100% true then that still would not really challenge the egalatarian position in any meaningful fashion as far as I can tell.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 15:12   #4
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Individuals who were good, were often taken off the pitch, so those who were mediocre would have a chance to feel like they were doing good.
On this specific point, this is the sort of thing that certain newspaper columnists in the UK get really annoyed about (they'd tend to call it 'political correctness' for no good reason) but I'm failing to see the problem. If your goal is to make the world's greatest football team then obviously this is a stupid idea. However, I doubt that is the purpose of most school kick-arounds. Obviously you shouldn't punish people for doing well, but it depends on how these things are presented. There are certainly variations of football where the player who scores twice first get's to sit out followed by the next and the next...and so on, which indirectly does mean that you end up with the fatties and skinny kids (me ) all desperately trying not to be last.

If nothing else, I think one of the primary lessons you'd want to teach your "elite" is the idea of sportsmanship and being the bigger man, etc.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 16:01   #5
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Re: Equality

I find your post really disgusting and it genuinelly angers me. This is probably the main reason why I would never send my kids (in the unlikely event I have any) to a state school. The situation in the UK is pretty similar, and I would assume the same also applies to most other Western countries - education is focused squarely at the lowest common denominator, and the most important thing is getting people up to a certain minimal level rather than pushing the talented kids forward. The whole thing is pretty much designed to squash any real creativity or talent, and its really depressing to think about the number of potentially bright people who have been handicapped by an education system which focuses on the mediocre.

You see this sort of thing at all levels in society (the same mentality underlies pretty much all socialist policies) but one of the most interesting recent examples was an initiative I was reading about in the Metro where a bunch of private charities were getting together to make laptop computers available to third world countries at very low prices (around 50 quid). This provoked outrage in the Letters section, with several people writing in to complain that it was disgraceful that charities were engaging in a program which would only help those who came from realtively well-off families and were literate, rather than directing their efforts towards feeding and clothing the extremely poor. Its the exact same mentality - the desire to make everyone mediocre even if this actively prevents a few from excelling.

Another good example is the sort of patterns people display when giving to charity. Charities which are focused on helping the poor, and those who have no obvious value to contribute to humanity, often get huge amounts of donations, whereas not many people would be prepared to donate money towards helping fund the work of a talented artist or scientist who didnt have the finances to achieve his goals. Similarly, people tend to think its somehow more moral to build mudhuts in Africa rather than help to fund start-up companies via the stockmarket or whatever. The general rule is that the greater your level of mediocrity, the more people will be inclined to help you, and this is reflected at pretty much all levels of modern society, from primary school onwards.

Last edited by Nodrog; 4 Jun 2006 at 16:19.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 16:37   #6
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
not many people would be prepared to donate money towards helping fund the work of a talented artist or scientist who didnt have the finances to achieve his goals.
Why would (or should) scientific research be in the domain of charity? Not many people would donate money to a scientist because we have venture capitalist firms and state grants to do this. If I'm being a good consumer, why should I donate to scientists or artists when I'm contributing to both these fields through my purchases?

In general I don't think you can surmise that much from charitable donations in this sense - at the start of the 19th Century there were plenty of philanthropists (John Ruskin, William Sutton, George Peabody and so on) who put money into building housing estates. That doesn't really happen these days not because people don't care about housing but because there are different methods of financing housing (banks in particular are very happy to lend to housing associations).
Quote:
The general rule is that the greater your level of mediocrity, the more people will generally be inclined to help you
I'm not sure "mediocrity" is a term that applies very well to your example of people in mudhuts in Africa, or those in needing of feeding and clothing in the third world generally. But yeah assistance tends to go to those in most need. This is not always ideal (third world aid especially is in a state of perpetual triage) but it's hardly an outrageous principle.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 17:47   #7
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Re: Equality

My take on it is that talented people who care to advance will be motivated enough to do it on their own time. As for Nodrog's points, he sounds a lot like Thomas Malthus, who rougly said that poor people are not worth helping. I don't agree with that, but I'm not sure if I'm setting up a strawman here.

I understand that a lot of people are tired of inept social programs that do not seem to do anything other than reward lazyness or please an unjustified social sentiment. I admit, it's true, there are problems with how social services have been implemented and how various philosophies or ideas have been forced into areas where it isn't working or doesn't make a lot of sense.

In education, I think it is enough to give everyone the same opportunity and tools to make the best out of their time and effort. It is up to the parents of children to motivate their children to learn and do well, not the school. I don't think the teachers need to help any group of students over any other. Just teach the information, if there are students that excel, than advance them through the program faster than others.

Having said that, I believe there are children who, because of problems with their families, health, or economy will not do as well as they could otherwise, and I don't see any harm in providing extra tutoring after school or some such service to help these kids out or anyone else who might need it. Extra work, or 'AP' style classes for advanced students, after hours or during normal school hours, is okay too.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 19:14   #8
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Re: Equality

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I expect people on these forums to be academically capable by and large and its only natural that you feel you haven't been given a yellow brick road all the way to your Nobel Prize. Well if you are so smart go to a bloody library and get some books out. If you are so smart you shouldn't need a teacher.
For me, this is not what it is all about. I never expect to get a Nobel Prize - I only want to "fulfill my potential", no matter how cliche that sounds. What is annoying, is to see teachers spending hours on without end trying to teach something to someone who doesn't really care at all. Everyone are talented with something - and mainly things that interest them. If you have an interest in say literature, I feel the school system should be able to help you get started with it. Bear in mind that we are not only speaking about high school level and above, but also for younger children who aren't very capable of doing things on their own. When I was 11, I was a whole month ahead of my class in maths - my teacher told me to slow down and take a break until the rest caught up. Well, I bloody well slept through those lessons. Later on, I spent that time helping out my friends with their maths curiculum, but that is no substitute for learning. I was slowed down for years, until my interest in the subject just disappeared altogether.

As for needing a teacher, I think most people do need a demonstration of something before they can work out. Solving equations is hard to do unless you have seen someone do it already. Intellect is often about catching onto something quickly, and you can often train yourself to do that. I don't consider myself very smart or intelligence, but I like to be allowed to do what interests me, and subjects such as history, physics, maths and chemistry have been among them. I was lucky enough to have a physics teacher who lived for his subject, and knew stuff way out of curiculum, and I hope to be able to continue working with that subject. But if my teacher hadn't been willing to help discuss with me, and teach me the subject outside school, I very much doubt that it had been something I enjoyed today.

And before we start labeling people into classes, my father is a labourer in industry, and my mother is a low level office worker. I have been brought up as working class and earnt my own money since I was 14.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 19:34   #9
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
What is annoying, is to see teachers spending hours on without end trying to teach something to someone who doesn't really care at all. Everyone are talented with something - and mainly things that interest them.
This is the nub of the matter. I would imagine that yes, the bottom 10% (academically speaking) have, on average, more than 10% of the schools resources dedicated to them. And some of this is for the "egalatarian" reasons discussed - although as I have said it can be worth it, it is cheaper to do it now than to have to imprison them later at a much higer cost if they have no career path when they finish education.

But a lot of that extra spending is utterly wasted because we (i.e. the education system) are (in many cases) forcing pupils to learn about things they have no real interest in. I am not talking about giving an introduction to all subjects when students are young, but compulsory lessons in utterly stupid subjects long beyond the point where it's obvious they are not interested.

In terms of independent learning I think the 'net is an obvious opportunity here. When I was about 13/14 I was vaguely interested in programming simple QBasic programs often with sbOlly from these forums. But the only real resource we had was the qbasic.hlp file plus a couple of things we might have come across on BBS'. Now a kid in a similar position would be dramatically better off and could probably end up a competent programmer before they even hit 18. And in this context all they'd need would be some access to computers (quite universal in the west), some free time and some imagination.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 19:42   #10
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As I've mentioned before there's the old (probably untrue) example of the Soviet Union shoe factory which was given the target of producing a million shoes. So it did. It produced a million left shoes rendering the output basically useless. But it met the target.
Sounds like a story for the fireplace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Anyway, there's a lot that could be said on this topic but more generally I'd say that there are associated costs & benefits to any sort of 'national philosophy'. By pursuing equality (in a seemingly fairly irrational manner) you might indeed be stunting sporting genius (there's no way of testing this, but let's presume that it's true). And so you aren't going to get the sort of creative genius that, say, the Brazilian or Argentinian slums seem to produce every once in a while.

But then again I'm presuming there's a lot more random murders in Sao Paulo then there are in Oslo. Obviously that's not a fair comparison, but the point is that if you increased the amount of inequality you might find you had better footballers but an overall worse society to live in. Not that I'm defending these policies per se, they seem rather bizarre, but I suspect they are the natural extension of other (mainly authoritarian) ideas. In general though I am unsure why the citizens of a country should actually care if "they" (as a nation) are any good at sports.
This isn't mainly about sports, it was merely used as an example. Sports is mainly entertainment, and nationalistic people might put a great deal into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But looking at education from another angle, if you look at the United States , I doubt many would deny they have some top class colleges (Harvard, MIT, etc) who are second to none in the provision of elite education, research and so on. But by all accounts the rest of the countries education system isn't so good and indeed we hear various horror stories about the provision of education in, say, poverty stricken inner city neighbourhoods (not that this is necessarily linked much to the first point). But does it matter? What are we trying to achieve? A balanced generally well educated populace or some sort of elite?

Fortunately I do not believe that these questions are either/or but if they were, what would we want? It's better to have a bunch of geniuses because they'll be the ones who will cure global warming, right? Well, possibly, but this is not particularly straight forward. It might be that the big issues of our day (climate change, AIDS, energy use, etc) will need to be solved from both ends - both scientific breakthroughs but also cultural adaptations. Looking at infection rates of AIDS (for instance) the big wins seem to have come mainly from educating people on the ground, not some uber cure.
"What are we trying to achieve?" is an interesting question indeed. Now, it is only natural that different people have different skills, and trying to teach everyone the same will obviously not work out. Making a "class" where everyone learns the same things can't be done. That there will exist an elite, as you put it, is inevetable, for various reasons this will happen. In some cases these are the pioneers who work with cures for diseases, charting genes, working out how to "conquer" Mars. And other times it will be those evil capitalists who works for profit only. From what I know about these things, USA is an extreme when it comes to education, compared to the rest of the West. Norway, being one of the richest countries in the world compared to population, we can afford to offer a good educational system throughout the entire country, provided we have personell for it, and if they are offered good wages, there will be. It is easy to say that in countries such as say - Angola, only a minority is getting education and that this is to create an elite. But I am quite sure they would offer a much better system if they could, and probably one where everyone had the same possibilities.

And that is what this is all about. Myself, I want a school system where everyone has the possibility to reach their full potential. I spent twelve years in the school system, learning what I probably could have learn in ten years. This means that there was a lot of extra time that was filled up - by doing nothing at all. This is where I feel our system fails, at least. Those who are not interested in some subjects (mainly such subjects as norwegian, history and society) are absent a whole lot, but when they are there, they are behind. This means that the teacher will try to teach them what they lost out on, without it making the subject more interesting to them. This is a vicious circle leading to more absence. The system for these people should be to change to subject to fit them, you can not change the pupil to fit the subject. Make it interesting for them - this way they will work with it without the teacher spending half a less telling them why it is important they learn it.

Theoretically speaking it would of course be better to get a working cure for AIDS. These countries (Mainly third world countries) have poor educational facilities, they are generally many years behind. But as Nodrog gave us an example of, with those laptops - you need to start somewhere. It would be better for the country if they were able to stand on their own without help, and doing this comes through education, not supplying blankets and shelter. Trying to industrialise these countries so they can produce something, and earn money would be a final solution to their misery, while giving food, shelter and water will only last so long. It is kind of idiotic to protest when someone wants to send educational aid to literate people, because others don't have houses, or water. Obviously, the basic needs for the human being must come first - water, nutrition, shelter, other human beings. But if we keep just giving them those things only, do you honestly thing they will ever get their head over the water?

As you say, it is about a balance. A balanced populace with regards to education would be the best - ever layer of society is needed. But you need to start somewhere, and the middle isn't necessarely the best place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Speaking generally : Yes of course people are different. That's the wonderful diversity of the human condition. But egalatarianism doesn't deny that. In fact, most sane egalatarians are open to the idea of various differences in capacity between people. Even if you take some radical Bell Curve position of genetic inheritability of intelligence and racial differences in IQ and so on as 100% true then that still would not really challenge the egalatarian position in any meaningful fashion as far as I can tell.
Being a barbaric norwegian, I don't know what that means. Would you be so kind to give a good source where I can learn what it is? (egalatarianism)

Having ranted at our educational system, I must say I am pleased with our public healthcare. We are generally quite good at these things, but not as good as we were. Our welfare is generally good, it was just me thinking back at those years during school, and thinking that it really was not that good.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 19:44   #11
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Re: Equality

As much as I'd like to stay to debate this, I really have to go. I'll be back tomorrow, hoping that I won't fall too far behind.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 22:55   #12
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
This isn't mainly about sports, it was merely used as an example. Sports is mainly entertainment, and nationalistic people might put a great deal into it.
I realise this, but I'm not sure the example of sport can be applied elsewhere. Or at least no so easily. You say that Norwegian's don't make good football players (say) because they have been hampered by statist enforced equality. Are you saying that applies to business too? Are Norwegian businesses uncompetetive in the world market because they lack sufficient drive in their leaders? Has research been done on this?

It's quite possible - there's the usual stereotype of a tourist from the countrside who gets ripped off by everyone when he or she visits the big city. The idea behind this is that people in the country aren't sufficiently well versed in scams, or confidence tricks and so on. Now, no-one is saying that city folks are somehow better spiritually for being paranoid towards everyone but it's certainly an advantage in some circumstances. Perhaps the same applies here that equality is a good idea internally but less good when facing external pressures or competetion.
Quote:
That there will exist an elite, as you put it, is inevetable, for various reasons this will happen.
I'm not sure about that. There are certainly always going to be different ability ranges and interests, and this will naturally inform what people end up doing. But why would we automatically assume there would be an elite of some kind? That seems to be an assumption. Yes, stock brokers may be rated more highly in this world than sewage workers but it's trivial to imagine a situation where the scenario was reversed for some reason, or that there was no real distinction made at all.

Quote:
And that is what this is all about. Myself, I want a school system where everyone has the possibility to reach their full potential. I spent twelve years in the school system, learning what I probably could have learn in ten years.
Again this seems to be much more a flaw in the speciifc management style your schools have adopted. We get it here too - independent learning isn't seriously encouraged and there are obviously problems which arise because of it. I would much prefer for kids to be, at an earlier stage in their educational career, given a choice over large parts of their education. And part of this would be opting to finish by 15, 16, 17, 18 or beyond.

Quote:
Theoretically speaking it would of course be better to get a working cure for AIDS.
I don't think anyone would argue against a full cure for AIDS.

My point wasn't that a cure for HIV/AIDS would be superior but simply we do not have one yet. And it's not clear that one is around the corner. Certainly with more complex diseases likes cancer it is unlikely we will develop a 100% cure for at least a few decades. In the meantime, the easiest ways of cutting all these diseases is lifestyle changes and economic restructuring. Both of which require a reasonably educated populace.

Quote:
It would be better for the country if they were able to stand on their own without help, and doing this comes through education, not supplying blankets and shelter. Trying to industrialise these countries so they can produce something, and earn money would be a final solution to their misery, while giving food, shelter and water will only last so long.
I suspect that most aid of the "blanket and food" variety goes to specific catastrophes like the Tsunami, Pakistani earthquake, Sudan and so on. But obviously I agree and I think everyone knows that aid is not a long term solution. Which is why even Bono and the like are harking on about European & US trade sanctions. The two simplest things the first world could do to improve Africa's lot for example would be to reduce/remove our trade barriers in agriculture and secondly to revise the way our immigration policies work. The first is fairly self evident but the latter is often ignored. The African dispora (for want of a better term) sends money back to Africa which absolutley dwarfs the amount sent in aid. As I always say, the problems of Africa will be solved by the deeds of black people, not by aid. So let's let them get on with it.

Quote:
It is kind of idiotic to protest when someone wants to send educational aid to literate people, because others don't have houses, or water.
I don't think anyone is seriously "protesting" it though. Yes the letters page of the Metro did have a few moans about it, but I'm not sure this constitutes a protest. That's just a simplistic knee jerk response which is the sort of thing newspaper letters are famed for. But in any case, in most scenarios it's not an either/or situation. Yes, there will sometimes be resource limitations where we must choose one project over another, but this is the exception, not the rule. In most cases we can try and feed and clothe those in need of emergency aid and try to boost IT skills elsewhere through cheap laptops. Although I'm not convinced that the latter is a long-term charitable cause anyway - it seems like something which given the right initial support and proper management could easily become a profitable enterprise.
Quote:
Obviously, the basic needs for the human being must come first - water, nutrition, shelter, other human beings. But if we keep just giving them those things only, do you honestly thing they will ever get their head over the water?
No, of course not - but again, this is misrepresenting third/first world relations somewhat. As a general rule the flow of resources is from them to us, not the other way round. This is why we are wealthy and they are not. It is sometimes comforting to see the world as some huge white mans burden but this is not really an accurate representation of the world.
Quote:
Being a barbaric norwegian, what that means. Would you be so kind to give a good source where I can learn what it is? (egalatarianism).
You're forgiven since it's not a word (I can't spell). It's Egalitarianism. Although that's not a good article and doesn't tell you much. But I'm not sure if there's any really good articles which outline what I'm talking about anyhow.

I think to summarise, I like Noam Chomsky's point : egalitarianism is a principle, not a position or a system of facts. I am saying that if, tomorrow, a spaceship arrived bearing some amazing treasures from another world that we should do our best to try and spread this benefit to as many people as possible rather than it all going to whomever got lucky, or was militarily strong, or whatever other justification we have for unfair share.

In many ways we already have egalitarian arrangements in place. The law is a pretty good example where most people are treated more or less equally in a given context. This has not always historically been the case. But obviously there is still lot to do.
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Unread 4 Jun 2006, 23:24   #13
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Re: Equality

Couple things.

I don't really see 'go read some books' as being a good solution to the "bright kids" 'problem'. I read a lot when I was going through school, and I learned one thing: spelling (maybe a little contextual vocabulary). When I have questions in my research, it's usually possible to find the answer in a book, but it's usually 100 times faster just to ask my advisor/whoever (and the answer given will be much more likely to be phrased in a manner relevant to my specific situation).

When I went through school, obviously more attention was paid to the 'mediocres', but it's hard to argue with that. One central issue being: what good is it for a teacher to spend extra time with a specific student when that student is as intelligent or more so? I'm almost glad teachers spent so little time with me, as it turns out much of what they did tell me was inaccurate.

One answer to that issue is to take the bright kids away from the normal teachers and give them to a 'better' group of teachers. This will never happen, for two reasons: where do you get this group of teachers? In general, the upper level of society has better things to do than babysit your brats.* Secondly, because we live in a democracy, and people in general won't vote in favor of moving funding away from their kids, especially because that will also move smart kids away from their kids (and people tend to think (rightly?) that being surrounded by intelligent people will help make them smarter). And also because that is something the nazis and soviets would have done.

Anyway, as always I blame the parents, not the schools. If you think it is important for your child to learn something, then teach it to him. If I have a child that turns out to be exceptionally intelligent (and I don't really care if any do), then I will put them smack into a public school system, and (rightly) treat that school as a baby sitter (that has the added perk of teaching my child how to socialize properly), and take the responsibility of actual education onto myself. And I have no respect for any parent who would do otherwise, unless they happened to be much dumber than their gifted child.

* There are four situations I can reasonably imagine a very capable and intelligent person giving one-on-one time to your gifted child:
1. Your child is working in industry. The other person is his boss.
2. Grad school, advisor.
3. You are rich as ****ing hell, and paying the guy hundreds of thousands a year.
4. The "capable and intelligent" person is you.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 03:05   #14
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Another good example is the sort of patterns people display when giving to charity. Charities which are focused on helping the poor, and those who have no obvious value to contribute to humanity, often get huge amounts of donations, whereas not many people would be prepared to donate money towards helping fund the work of a talented artist or scientist who didnt have the finances to achieve his goals. Similarly, people tend to think its somehow more moral to build mudhuts in Africa rather than help to fund start-up companies via the stockmarket or whatever. The general rule is that the greater your level of mediocrity, the more people will be inclined to help you, and this is reflected at pretty much all levels of modern society, from primary school onwards.
Charities like Oxfam certainly make good money for the third world on the shame our society feels, but I don't think the West really gets a bad deal out of the situation on the whole. Of course, certain Africans get an even better deal than anyone but then it is our society that elects people apparantly more concerned about what nastiness resides in Saddam Hussein's moustache.

I don't really rate myself morally to be honest, but isn't it of the greatest importance to provide a basic "quality of life" for everyone? I suppose that's pretty irrational, but then I'd question the logic behind my sitting here while Jim Crow endures conditions that we would not subject our pets to.

More on topic, I think that if we really want to improve our society we should look toward our own modern vices. If we're misusing economic opportunities by educating everybody to a basic standard what can be said about the money we spend on product packaging? Do I really need a cleaner to save me half an hour of my day? How much money is afforded so that a minority can enjoy the "high life"? How much more so that those who tend them can see the pictures? I'm back off topic again.

I suppose I feel bad for you in that you could have had it better, but how bad should I feel for you?

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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 03:26   #15
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
And that is what this is all about. Myself, I want a school system where everyone has the possibility to reach their full potential.
Another side issue, what is meant by 'potential'? Obviously I know what it means in a conventional sense, but I don't think it's a useful value given the importance of external influences on the personal development of any individual. In an ideal world (ie. one where absolutely every opportunity could be afforded to every individual) I would expect that individual 'potential' would be unrecognisably greater than at present, and furthermore that the difference in potential between individuals would be a far smaller fraction than it is perceived to be at present.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 03:26   #16
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Re: Equality

If you are so goddamned smart, why don't you go about realizing your potential and let the teachers help those that really need it? Life is not handed to you on a platter, you know.

Besides, it's bullshit. We carve personal attention and love to flash here as much as any other country. To say that Norway is built on equality is misusing the word, like calling this system for democracy. In school, all my teachers cared about were the top students, not the medicore or bad ones. I guess it's just the eyes that see.

ps norway is far from socialist. that would be like calling the system we live under for democracy
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 07:13   #17
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Exclamation Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No, of course not - but again, this is misrepresenting third/first world relations somewhat. As a general rule the flow of resources is from them to us, not the other way round. This is why we are wealthy and they are not.
I think you are confusing wealth with resources. Resources, by themselves, aren't worth much. A barrel of oil or a ton of iron ore is worth about $70, but only to someone who owns an oil refinery or a steel mill, respectively. No one else on the planet can do anything particularily useful with them. Once the oil has been converted into gasoline or plastic or whatever and the iron ore has been converted into steel or iron then they become a lot more useful. Lots of people have uses for those items. The steel and gasoline can be used to make still more useful items. The first world is wealthy because we can turn so many resources into so many useful products, the third world is poor because they cannot.


But back on topic...


We have something similar in the US called No Child Left Behind (NCLB). Basically, schools are evaluated according to how many of their students pass a series of standardized tests (in reading and math). Previously, some schools were simply passing students regardless (to make themselves look good) and ultimately graduating people who couldn't read or write or do simple arithmetic.

I have no problem with the general idea of evaluating schools and unfortunately since the government operates the public schools, the normal marketplace corrections are absent (dysfunctional schools can't go out of business, bad teachers/administrators are rarely fired, and ultimately people can't just take their business elsewhere).

The problem with this standard is that public schools have little incentive or reward for educating students beyond the level required to pass the tests. This has put pressure on schools to transfer funding from programs aimed at talented students to remedial programs (arguably they had little incentive to provide accelerated instruction before NCLB either, but at least they had no strong incentive not to). Even programs in other subjects such as music, art, foreign languages--basically anything that doesn't show up on the standardized tests--are now at risk.

I think the biggest danger of cutting accelerated programs and spending more class time on remedial instruction is that the advanced students are more likely to get bored with school and stop caring/trying. Children, regardless of their level, need to be challenged. Some students will be able to challenge themselves and some parents can challenge their children; but I think it's asking a lot (probably too much in many cases) to expect children to sit through hours of repetitive instruction of things they already know and still maintain a love and excitement for learning.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 07:54   #18
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I think you are confusing wealth with resources. Resources, by themselves, aren't worth much. A barrel of oil or a ton of iron ore is worth about $70, but only to someone who owns an oil refinery or a steel mill, respectively. No one else on the planet can do anything particularily useful with them.
This is true in an abstract sense, but since we live in a market economy people can do something useful with it - they can sell it. The problem is that in some cases even the rights to some of these resources have been passed over to first world interests (or their local subsiduaries). Of course you are correct and my phrasing was unclear to say the least - I was reluctant to start talking about wealth since then you're dealing with dollar values of things, and it becomes complicated.

In strict terms the flow of wealth is probably from the first world to the third world (especially once you include the money sent home by immigrants in the west) but I'm not sure that really constitutes value, but I realise that's a bit more of a fuzzy concept.

My point was put better and simpler by Ephor : in any scenario the elite can hardly be said to be doing badly (and if they are, I think we should question whether they are actually 'the elite'). More specifically here, we can debate how much of the first world's wealth is dependent on the third, but in either case I think it's clear to most observors who's generally doing best out of world trade and it ain't people living on a dollar a day.

In relation to your other point I of course agree about targets. There's an expression in management speak which sums it up - "What gets measured gets done." With the unspoken addition - "unfortunately, very little else does." being tacked on the end.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 07:59   #19
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
I don't really see 'go read some books' as being a good solution to the "bright kids" 'problem'.
I don't think books is the main idea behind learning outside of school - you'd be better off joining a debating team, or participating in an internet community dedicated to a topic you find interesting or something like that. The point is there's plenty you can do without needing a teacher's direct intervention. Of course there is the issue of attitude and there are going to be bright but generaqlly apathetic students who need some sort of guidance. But generally it seems you can't force people to learn (as Calvin says; "You can present the material, but you can't make me care.") and most "bright but lazy" people need to **** up a few times to get their arse in gear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephor
Another side issue, what is meant by 'potential'?
This is a good point. I think a lot of people have ridiculously high expectations of what they're going to be able to achieve (I know I did/do). This is not a bad thing, but it's fairly ridiculous to assume everyone can be a millionaire or movie star or whatever (although of course anyone can).

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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 18:55   #20
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Exclamation Re: Equality

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
As I understand it the No Child Left Behind Act is mostly rhetoric and has had a negative impact on the performance of schools already in trouble.
No Child Left Behind has been mostly rhetoric until this year, which is the first year that the results start to count (in terms of holding schools accountable).
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However taking it as you describe it, you seem to be saying it has been poorly implemented which isn't an argument against it obviously.
Well we're all waiting for that government program that's brilliantly implemented.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 20:11   #21
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Re: Equality

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
Well we're all waiting for that government program that's brilliantly implemented.
i'm a big fan of the freeway system,

and while it's debatable as to whether the "let's stop those krauts!" plan was implemented 'brilliantly' or some other adverb would be more fitting,

i think it's clearly high time we cloned up an eisenhower.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 21:42   #22
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Re: Equality

Equality of opportunity is desirable.

Equality of outcome is undesirable.

A government which concentrates on making sure that the opportunities for all of their citizens to excell are as equal as possible (poor people having the same access to education as rich people for instance) is a plus.

A government which concentrates on making sure that everyone gets the same outcome for their lives regardless of the amount of effort or talent expended by the individual, is not a plus.

Unfortunately, in an education system, unless you segregate individuals by ability leading to elitism, you are stuck with a system which will have the best effect on the great middle while having less than optimal effects on both ends of the spectrum of talent. Those with the money to go outside of the system will do so to see that their offspring have additional opportunites.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 21:56   #23
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Re: Equality

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Originally Posted by dda
Equality of opportunity is desirable.

Equality of outcome is undesirable.
Inequality of outcome leads pretty much inevitably to inequality of opportunity as you go on to say (unless we're going to have children raised by the state or something).

In any case, I feel the term "undersirable" is far too strong here. Perhaps "Not a goal we should actively directly seek" or something.

Myself, I look forward to the day where the vast majority of differences between people's lifestyle are down to personal choice rather than economic or political restrictions.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 22:21   #24
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Re: Equality

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Myself, I look forward to the day where the vast majority of differences between people's lifestyle are down to personal choice rather than economic or political restrictions.
This is a good thing to look forward to as it will give you something to look forward to for the rest of your life.
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Unread 5 Jun 2006, 22:27   #25
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Re: Equality

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Originally Posted by dda
This is a good thing to look forward to as it will give you something to look forward to for the rest of your life.
Definitely - these things won't be achieved in my lifetime, that's why it's more about an attitude. A direction we should be moving in as it were.
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Unread 6 Jun 2006, 00:07   #26
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Re: Equality

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Originally Posted by Snurx
If you are so goddamned smart, why don't you go about realizing your potential and let the teachers help those that really need it? Life is not handed to you on a platter, you know.
This is a lot easier said than done for a pupil who is - for instance 10 years old. At my age, this is not really a problem any longer, as I can get around, and I generally know how, and where to find knowledge that I need. All it might take for a teacher to help someone out, is to tell them where to get these things, but I must say I have never seen anything like that happen. For kids whose parents have no education, and thus will not get any help with school at home after a certain stage, it will be hard to reach the expertise they would be able to otherwise. This is a loss for society, and for the kids in question. The way I read the first sentense in your post, you seem to think that these children don't really need help. Understand me correctly, I do not say that the kids who have trouble getting through their curriculum in school should not be helped out, and work on their stuff alone. I am saying that one needs to find a new approach to teach them their curiculum, or make a new curriculum. It is not always so easi yo shape a pupil into a person who can take interest and joy in what the school teaches him/her, sometimes you need to shape what you teach that person instead.

And why shouldn't bright children have as much right, or deserve help as much as any other kids? I think it is wrong to say that these children should study on their own since they don't really need guidance to get through what others might need guidance to get through. I also think that they need guidance as well, it's just a matter of how quickly they catch on to it, or how much interest they have in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snux
Besides, it's bullshit. We carve personal attention and love to flash here as much as any other country. To say that Norway is built on equality is misusing the word, like calling this system for democracy. In school, all my teachers cared about were the top students, not the medicore or bad ones. I guess it's just the eyes that see.

ps norway is far from socialist. that would be like calling the system we live under for democracy
Subjectively to you, it might be bullshit, just as it is facts for me. As you say, it is all about the eyes that see. But I still feel that the way the system is governed right now, leads to generalisation of students, and that this again leads to teachers and staff at schools doing the easier thing to get the grades up. The difference between a 2 and a 4, is (measured in workload) very similar to the difference between a 5 and a 6, and hence it is better to spend time with those who have a 2, than a 5. Obviously, if you put a similar amount of time into both cases, one of them will raise the average twice as much as the other.

I don't think I said that Norway was built on equality either, at least I did not mean to. I am saying that this has traditionally been a value that means a lot to norwegians, and that this shows on our society. The one big exception to this, is the obsession with celebreties that some people show.
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Unread 6 Jun 2006, 00:14   #27
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is a good point. I think a lot of people have ridiculously high expectations of what they're going to be able to achieve (I know I did/do). This is not a bad thing, but it's fairly ridiculous to assume everyone can be a millionaire or movie star or whatever (although of course anyone can).
I am not quite sure how we would settle this. At a young age, we often have these high expectations (it would perhaps be more right to call them dreams) about becoming the first gazillionaire, being the first football player to win the World Cup three times in a row, etc. We quickly learn that not everyone is meant to do that though, and most people settle for that. We are either restricted by ourself and our abilities, or our environment. In most cases, the restricting factor would be ourself.

I don't think I have a sufficient talent for playing football to ever become a professional player, no matter how much training and assistance I would recieve. It is also something I wouldn't want to prioritise. However, I do believe that I have a sufficient talent for science to become a scientist. Wether this would be chemistry or physics, I don't know, but these are realistic goals. The restricting factor in this case would then be my environment. These are obviously examples, and probably not the best ones you could find. But the idea behind a school where you can fulfill your potential, is obviously that the school is not the restricting factor that renders you unable to achieve your goals.

This will of course be nearly impossible to measure though.
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Unread 6 Jun 2006, 00:43   #28
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Re: Equality

America's K-12 grades (Primary, middle and high school) are, I'm ashamed to say, a joke. Kids only see thier schoolwork as a task to be completed and forgotten, not something to be learned and retained. Most information is only retained by students in bits and pieces, not the entirity that it was taught in. The exceptional students are given exceptional attention, the mediocre students given mediocre attention, and the bad or "hopeless" students are for the most part given up on by teachers.

The Universities vary, most of them being quite good.

I think that the key to solid learning is establishing a constant and equal amount of attention with the student, and helping them to realize why and how retaining information can be helpful.

In an ideal setting, the best way that I have found to help a student retain information is for the student to learn it without viewing it as something to be learned. If the student finds it interesting, or can relate it to themselves in some form or fashion, they will more readily retain what they have learned and put it to use.

This brings me to my next point, putting the subject information to use. Students need to see past the 'chore' of learning, and find practical uses for the things that they learn. Not only does this compliment the theory behind what they learn, it also gives the student a good memory and feel for what they are doing.

Just my 2 cents as an educator.
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Unread 6 Jun 2006, 00:43   #29
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Re: Equality

Is streaming in education good or bad in people's opinion? I think for one that it's a good thing.

Pardon me for trying to state something that seems obvious but surely if you have classes that attempt to maximise the 'potential' of groups of different ability levels (while allowing for movement between them) can only help to achieve 'equality'.

The question to me is how you stream. Is it by subject, or in fact by the whole curriculum that is on offer (are there children in education that might be better off learning a trade than doing any serious academics, for example). I'm sure that the level of opportunity to move into different classes is also a key factor as people generally develop at different times etc.
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Unread 6 Jun 2006, 01:00   #30
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Are Norwegian businesses uncompetetive in the world market because they lack sufficient drive in their leaders? Has research been done on this?
I would be surprised is this is the case. I think our leaders have sufficient drive to make our businesses competetive in the world market, but I still think we have a lot of room for improvement. People who think outside the box, and come up with something new. The way I see it, many of our big companies base themselves on really solid organisational work, and only little creativity. This means that they would for instance employ very few people, and rather let them work a lot to give them a compact working force. In an office for instance, fewer people would handle cases, so a case would only be handled by few people. This is efficiency, obviously. I am not sure wether that is a positive, or negative thing.

I can not back this up with statistics, and I very much doubt that there has been done research on this. However I have an uncle who is employed in a company that seems to follow that recipe, and I rarely see him because he's working all the time. This is definitely not a future I picture for myself - two week summer vacation seems too little for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But why would we automatically assume there would be an elite of some kind? That seems to be an assumption. Yes, stock brokers may be rated more highly in this world than sewage workers but it's trivial to imagine a situation where the scenario was reversed for some reason, or that there was no real distinction made at all.
Elite is probably not the right word for this. What I meant was that there will be distinctions between different layers of the society, such as for instance work that challenges the intellect, or work that is physically challenging. This is a natural division to make, and it will always be this way. Not everyone can be doctors, not everyone can be cab drivers. This is not to say that doctors are more valuable to the sociecty than cab drivers (that is an entirely different discussion altogether), but it happens to be so that you need more qualifications to be a doctor than you need to drive a cab. If I was to study medicine at university level for seven years, I would very much want something back other than the joy of performing my profession with skill. This sort of higher education should be rewarded, if not for other reasons than to make sure that skilled people choose to take it (most human beings have the habit of choosing reward over challenge).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Again this seems to be much more a flaw in the speciifc management style your schools have adopted. We get it here too - independent learning isn't seriously encouraged and there are obviously problems which arise because of it. I would much prefer for kids to be, at an earlier stage in their educational career, given a choice over large parts of their education. And part of this would be opting to finish by 15, 16, 17, 18 or beyond.
This is probably true. Individual choice of education should be allowed at a much earlier stage than at present - perhaps this way more people would end up with an education that might support their lives after they're through the system. The example you mentioned about IT and coding is desirable, I think. I agree wholeheartedly with this part of your post, but I am not so certain how this could be applied in real life, nor if it ever will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I suspect that most aid of the "blanket and food" variety goes to specific catastrophes like the Tsunami, Pakistani earthquake, Sudan and so on. But obviously I agree and I think everyone knows that aid is not a long term solution. Which is why even Bono and the like are harking on about European & US trade sanctions. The two simplest things the first world could do to improve Africa's lot for example would be to reduce/remove our trade barriers in agriculture and secondly to revise the way our immigration policies work. The first is fairly self evident but the latter is often ignored. The African dispora (for want of a better term) sends money back to Africa which absolutley dwarfs the amount sent in aid. As I always say, the problems of Africa will be solved by the deeds of black people, not by aid. So let's let them get on with it.
This is also something wich I haven't ventured into, and don't have numbers and statistics for. I am starting to feel insufficient for this discussion

Obviously I agree about changing our trade barriers, but this is not necessarely a working solution. Selling raw materials to other countries will not make you rich - selling finished products will. If they sell raw materials wich are then made into products in the west, will they buy these products from the west at a higher cost? Establishing some industry there needs to be done, and to achieve this they will need "an elite" (as described above, this is a bad word for it. But they would need the "right people" to get started). If they can turn their raw materials into products themselves, and sell to other countries, they will be far better off. This is why it is so vital that there are various classes, if you want to call it that. They will need people with a talent for management, and financial abilities - they already have manpower. What they need is guidance and initiative, I think.

I am not so sure that I agree with the second part. This is partly because of reasons that could be called egocentric, since I don't want immigrants to come to this country and take jobs that my friends, my family or I would need. Unless the economy needs it, I don't think it would be very good to get a lot more immigrants into our country - people without jobs often means more crime, and it is also a strain on the society in other aspects. As opposed to this, I would sooner be inclined to send more aid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't think anyone is seriously "protesting" it though. Yes the letters page of the Metro did have a few moans about it, but I'm not sure this constitutes a protest. That's just a simplistic knee jerk response which is the sort of thing newspaper letters are famed for.
This is mostly a misunderstanding based on language, I think. The word I wanted to use would be to complain, or something along those lines, not protest (I realise protest is a rather strong word in english?). Anyway, what I mean was that there were obviously some, if not many people that were unhappy about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But in any case, in most scenarios it's not an either/or situation. Yes, there will sometimes be resource limitations where we must choose one project over another, but this is the exception, not the rule. In most cases we can try and feed and clothe those in need of emergency aid and try to boost IT skills elsewhere through cheap laptops. Although I'm not convinced that the latter is a long-term charitable cause anyway - it seems like something which given the right initial support and proper management could easily become a profitable enterprise
This is obviously something that is satisfying when we can manage to achieve it, and disappointing when we can not. And as for the last part of it - if it woud cause a profitable enterprise for a country that is in dire need of things like that, it must be good, right? Money is certainly not what these people have most of, but education and initiative might help them get some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No, of course not - but again, this is misrepresenting third/first world relations somewhat. As a general rule the flow of resources is from them to us, not the other way round. This is why we are wealthy and they are not. It is sometimes comforting to see the world as some huge white mans burden but this is not really an accurate representation of the world.
The first/third world relations sounds like a very complex thing to describe, so either way, we have to simplify it. The basic thing, I think, is that they are in a position where they could use help, and we are in a position where we can offer them help. This doesn't mean we have to - given time, they will probably manage sooner or later (later rather than sooner at this pace, I think), and noone is forcing us to help them. However, it is the right thing to do. It is not a burden, and it is not necessarely our duty to help them - but I would feel quite shit for being from the west if we didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You're forgiven since it's not a word (I can't spell). It's Egalitarianism. Although that's not a good article and doesn't tell you much. But I'm not sure if there's any really good articles which outline what I'm talking about anyhow.
I can't spell myself, obviously. In fact, I managed to leave out three words from the sentense you quoted there.

As for egalitarianism, I think it sounds like a good idea that is hard to apply to reality. This is because different ways of applying it might conflict with others (there is also the option that I misunderstood the whole thing, and it is actually perfectly applicable.).
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Unread 6 Jun 2006, 01:21   #31
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Re: Equality

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
America's K-12 grades (Primary, middle and high school) are, I'm ashamed to say, a joke. Kids only see thier schoolwork as a task to be completed and forgotten, not something to be learned and retained. Most information is only retained by students in bits and pieces, not the entirity that it was taught in. The exceptional students are given exceptional attention, the mediocre students given mediocre attention, and the bad or "hopeless" students are for the most part given up on by teachers.
This was certainly something different from what I have seen - but then are viewpoints are very different as well. Because of all the films and series that come from your country, I was almost convinced that your students worked a whole lot with school to get those scholarships they would need when they were to apply to Harvard or Yale. It is a bit surprising to see that most of the kids you see appear to think more of school as a duty that needs to be done. Another stereotype made by Hollywood?

As for the attention bit of it, that is also not how it is around here. If you are not catching on to reading and writing, for instance, you might find that you get hooked up to a computer and told to play educational games here. My sister did (she is only nine, but I can tell already that she will not get a higher education - except maybe in art or something like that), and she is regularly playing these games with a group of kids that have a hard time learning maths, and other basic skills. I didn't see a computer at school before I was 16, neither did my brother.

If there are hopeless students, they will be followed up by a social program, as well as teachers and staff at the school. If you want a year off school - just be absent and say you have depressions. Your school will set you up with a shrink, and when you're ready to start again, they will put you on a special program (I have a good friend who has been doing this for years).

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
The Universities vary, most of them being quite good.

I think that the key to solid learning is establishing a constant and equal amount of attention with the student, and helping them to realize why and how retaining information can be helpful.

In an ideal setting, the best way that I have found to help a student retain information is for the student to learn it without viewing it as something to be learned. If the student finds it interesting, or can relate it to themselves in some form or fashion, they will more readily retain what they have learned and put it to use.

This brings me to my next point, putting the subject information to use. Students need to see past the 'chore' of learning, and find practical uses for the things that they learn. Not only does this compliment the theory behind what they learn, it also gives the student a good memory and feel for what they are doing.
This is fairly obvious, I think. The best way to make someone latch onto a subject is by making the subject look interesting to them. Ideally you would also want the student to have available help at any time he/she might need it, but this is where the question of prioritising comes into picture. I am not sure what I think about this, not how it should be done, neither how it could be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Just my 2 cents as an educator.
It is always interesting to see things from the other side of the fence. This is no exception
__________________
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.

Oh crap, I might be back. I should take my own advice.
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