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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 00:52   #1
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[A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

I happened to be dozing in a lecture recently, and the following occurred to me, I shall attempt to present it in the most rational and structured way I can. I hope to hear similar theories on this [if any] so I can better understand the situation,

Concerning current theories of our universe, its 4 [or 11? any converts of string theory present?] that say the universe must end, therefore one must surmise that the universe is finite, ie. distance [the universe is expanding etc], time etc all have a beginning [big bang] and an end [big crunch etc] and are inifinte- let us assume that this is still a theory, both the big bang and the big crunch, and insofar as we are concerned science has not a "solution" or "answer".

Now to what this thread is about:

I have a huge problem contemplating, understanding, even conceptualising the infinite, infinity, time distance as being infinite- is this due to all my experiences being limited by the finite? Mathematically, "Infinity can be defined as the limit of 1/x as x approaches zero", on a more theoritcal note [thopugh maths does push towards this on many notes...] Infinity can be difened as a "limitless" quantity- and what are the most basic limits our minds can think of? A beginning and an end. Infinity is just that- without a beginning or end; To underline this-

My experience of time:

I was born- I cannot remember this experience, I cannot remember my conception in the womb. Other than what science has told me, other than what I have perceived** [see note], I do not know from whence or crucially, when, I existed. Can the same be said of my death? The moment my conscious mind ceases to exists, when time, as I percieve it, ends, I am not there to witness it- I am not a spectator.It is over. But I shan't know it is. Insofar as I am concerned, time, as I know it and perceive has no beginning or end I can witness, perceive- is it then infinite? Insofar as I am concerned?

My answer is no- at least my argument [perhaps flawed] is. I believe that the universe shall continue to exist without my active participation in it- I shall never know of course.

Following this line of thinking- is my understanding of inifinity [or attempts at] fundamentally flawed? Is this why my mind can't comprehend inifinity? Because all my experiences are by their very nature finite WHILE SEEMING to be inifinte? Do the bounds and limits imposed by my physical existence hold back my mind from understanding things which exceed [vastly] said limits? Can anyone help me overcome this?



** What is reality? Other than my perception of what I BELIEVE to be the physical world around me. How much weight can I give my assumptins about the world? how much of what I know can I hold to be true? Is this real?????? In theory it is perfectly possible [given sufficient technological advances] to simulate the electrical impulses of taste, hearing, sight, touch, smell etc. and as such feed me full of whatever propaganda one wishes. This begs a more significant question- what is reality aside from our perception of it?
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 00:58   #2
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Trying to understand something entirely outside of your context in any sort of realistic way is just silly. Reality is just something you understand a little bit better from time to time. I suppose you could refuse it and sit in a box denying anything exists but I doubt you'd be able to get that drunk that way
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 01:37   #3
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

how to contribute to a thread where you have very minimal knowledge of the subject matter
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 09:15   #4
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

I mock your stupid jpg, and Hawking!
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 09:34   #5
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

I met a philosopher who was doing a dissertation on exactly this topic. :eek:
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 09:57   #6
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Oh god, another Cartesian running around.

I will offer this explanation for reality. You may think that reality is only a perception, there's an evil demon tricking you, you're in the Matrix, brain-in-a-vat theory, whatever.

I will punch you in the face. It will hurt, you will fall down and probably start crying like Descartes would. Did you dream that punch? Were you tricked into perceiving that I punched you?

For you though, this is reality. It is unlikely that you're being tricked, but even if you are, it doesn't matter. You can say that I don't exist, but the fact of the matter is that you experienced this, and the impression of pain you fell is very real. Reality is what you experience, not what you think some evil demon is tricking you into believeing. Have you experienced the evil demon? No.

Is it possible to experience infinity? I believe yes and no. It is impossible to experience something infinitely large. However, it is quite possible to experience a point where traditional measurements lose value, or something which may appear infinitely large or small to our perspective.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 12:12   #7
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Apart from the random crap, there are two issues being posted about

Perception
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summanus
Oh god, another Cartesian running around.

I will offer this explanation for reality. You may think that reality is only a perception, there's an evil demon tricking you, you're in the Matrix, brain-in-a-vat theory, whatever.

I will punch you in the face. It will hurt, you will fall down and probably start crying like Descartes would. Did you dream that punch? Were you tricked into perceiving that I punched you?

For you though, this is reality. It is unlikely that you're being tricked, but even if you are, it doesn't matter. You can say that I don't exist, but the fact of the matter is that you experienced this, and the impression of pain you fell is very real. Reality is what you experience, not what you think some evil demon is tricking you into believeing. Have you experienced the evil demon? No.
as Summanus said, Descartes wrote about this quite some time ago.
He sort of cheated, used a criterion of truth (anything I can think of clearly and distinctly is true) and God (God is more clear and distinct existing than not existing, therefore he's real) [yes it's a shit argument and people have been laughing at him ever since for it] to disprove the "brain-in-a-vat" arguments.

There's many theories of perception - basic ones range from what you see is what you get to things disappearing when you turn your head, or things being merely the sum of their possible perceptions. A current popular one (I think) is that what you see is tinged by belief, preconceptions if you will. If we believe an object is <x> when it's really <y>, we're more likely to see it as <x> than if we didn't believe it was <x> in the first place - this is a nice illustration of the power of the subconcious.


Quote:
Is it possible to experience infinity? I believe yes and no. It is impossible to experience something infinitely large. However, it is quite possible to experience a point where traditional measurements lose value, or something which may appear infinitely large or small to our perspective.
It isn't impossible to experience infinity as such, as infinity is a concept.
An example of inifinity given to me runs as follows:
Imagine a bookshelf. Extend the bookshelf off to each side infinitely.
[warning: you need a big area to do this on]
Now put two sorts of books on the book shelf, red and green, side by side. How many books are there in total? An infinite number. Now, take out all the red books. How many green books are there left? Still an infinite number.
Things that we think of as infinite are just very very large finite things. The universe is finite (assuming the big bang occured) and so everything contained in it is also finite.
The other sort of infinite is things like "Looking at the interval [a,b] on the number line, how many numbers are there between a and b?"
There's obviously an infinite amount - you can always divide numbers to get more numbers. This you sort ofcan visualise - take a function f(x) that is 1 on [a,b] if x is rational, and 0 if x is irrational. You'll end up with two pretty lines, the one at f(x) = 1 weaker than f(x)=0, as the irritationals are more dense than the rationals. It still doesn't help that much, really. In fact, I don't see it helps at all, as you've just split the interval [a,b] into two more infinite sections - which have different sizes.

Really, infinity is only a concept, a helpful idea. It does not show size etc.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 13:02   #8
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

You experience infinity when you die....right lets get to the point

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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 13:07   #9
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summanus
For you though, this is reality. It is unlikely that you're being tricked, but even if you are, it doesn't matter. You can say that I don't exist, but the fact of the matter is that you experienced this, and the impression of pain you fell is very real. Reality is what you experience, not what you think some evil demon is tricking you into believeing. Have you experienced the evil demon? No.
Yeah but induction's shit so how do you know it's going to hurt this time?





PS Because of my delicate flower-like constitution you'll be the one getting punched in the face.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 13:54   #10
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah but induction's shit so how do you know it's going to hurt this time?





PS Because of my delicate flower-like constitution you'll be the one getting punched in the face.
Unlike Hume I believe that causation exists.


ps will you dance around the maypole in triumph?
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 13:56   #11
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Don't include your silly prejudiced beliefs in an ultra-serious thread about infinity








PS What's a maypole? I have heard of them before but I've really got no idea what it is. That said I'm always up for a good celtic fling so why not
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 14:02   #12
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I mock your stupid jpg, and Hawking!
Thats sad. Because im certain Hawking is your biggest fan.

I mean, lets look at his publications

"A Brief History of Time taken to build a 10k postcount"
"The Theory of Everything : With a comment from MrLJakiri every 3 paragraphs"
"A Life in Science : The Evolution of Threadwaste"
"God Created the Integers. When Jakiri let him get a word in Edgeways"

See.

Stephen Hawking loves you.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 14:02   #13
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

infinity is easier to understand than girls :o




The statement 'the universe is infinite/finite' is meaningless out of context; when 2 people are arguing over the finitude of the universe there is a great number of possible things which they could be discussing. You could use the statement 'the universe is infinite' as an informal shorthand for some scientific theory, possibly to mean something like unboundedness or whatever. But then the statement would derive its meaning solely from the body of theory which it is a part of. Its a bit like how you can use a literally meaningless sentence like "tables arent really solid" as a confused way of expressing the idea that atoms are mostly empty space. The correct reply to the statement 'the universe is infinite' is "what do you mean?".

philosophical problems arise when language goes on holiday and all that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
Mathematically, "Infinity can be defined as the limit of 1/x as x approaches zero"
No! The entire point of using limits is to let us do real analysis without having to appeal to vague notions of infinity or infinitesimals. The limit of 1/x as x -> 0 does not exist. You dont need to invoke infinity at any point while doing calculus; you can informally use it as a limiting concept if it helps you conceptualise things, but it is always dispensible from the point of view of the underlying formalism (at least in standard real analysis; there are equivalent formalisms which use infinitesimals).

When infinity does occur in mathematics it is always rigorously defined; for instance an infinite set is one which is equicardinal ('has the same number of elements') to a proper subset of itself.

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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 15:04   #14
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
When infinity does occur in mathematics it is always rigorously defined; for instance an infinite set is one which is equicardinal ('has the same number of elements') to a proper subset of itself.
Not quite the same, but this reminds me of the thing about the hotel with infinite rooms.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 15:06   #15
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

That place must make a fortune!























Edit: Wait
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 15:25   #16
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
.....
Concerning current theories of our universe, its 4 [or 11? any converts of string theory present?] that say the universe must end, therefore one must surmise that the universe is finite, ie. distance [the universe is expanding etc], time etc all have a beginning [big bang] and an end [big crunch etc] and are inifinte....
no, string theory doesn't have any infinities that I am aware of. One of the reasons people like it is because it avoids them. For example, contractions below a planck length are physically identical to expansions above a planck length.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 15:26   #17
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Not quite the same, but this reminds me of the thing about the hotel with infinite rooms.
I like that. especially when the hotel with infinite rooms next door burns down (and everyone escapes fortunately) and they all need rooms.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 16:24   #18
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Not quite the same, but this reminds me of the thing about the hotel with infinite rooms.
It is the same, f(x) = x+1 is a bijection from N to N\{1} :o

edit: http://www.stormloader.com/ajy/hotel.html for people who have no idea what youre talking about
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 16:28   #19
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

When I posted it, my mind told me that it was different, but time went on and I tried to think of a way that it was, and failed.

Evidently I just got it wrong, stupid brain!

[edit]

God, why do science/mathematics webpages all have to be quite so ugly.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 18:08   #20
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summanus
Unlike Hume I believe that causation exists.
NO! Hume didn't say it didn't exist, he said we can't prove it. We all act like it does exist though, as otherwise we'd all die. ("why eat food? I don't know that it'll cause my hunger goes away."

Quote:
PS What's a maypole? I have heard of them before but I've really got no idea what it is. That said I'm always up for a good celtic fling so why not
not looking it up or anything (which is probably a huge mistake) they used to take it out on the first day of spring (probably the spring equinox, Bel Tine or whatever. They're probably not the same ...). Anyway, all the girls would dance around it, each holding one of the ribbons hanging from the top. For some reason I also think it's a giant phallic symbol - I think only women "of age" dance around it, a few years before they get married.

Or something.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 18:11   #21
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
[edit]

God, why do science/mathematics webpages all have to be quite so ugly.
This is probably the root reason for why science and maths is so unpopular! I propose you start a project to promote maths and science by making them cute and furry. Though I don't suggest doing things like the garage paradox with a bunny rabbit.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 18:22   #22
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
, why do science/mathematics webpages all have to be quite so ugly.
because otherwise they'd be web designers not scientists/mathmaticians ?
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 18:25   #23
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
I happened to be dozing in a lecture recently, and the following occurred to me, I shall attempt to present it in the most rational and structured way I can. I hope to hear similar theories on this [if any] so I can better understand the situation,

Concerning current theories of our universe, its 4 [or 11? any converts of string theory present?] that say the universe must end, therefore one must surmise that the universe is finite, ie. distance [the universe is expanding etc], time etc all have a beginning [big bang] and an end [big crunch etc] and are inifinte- let us assume that this is still a theory, both the big bang and the big crunch, and insofar as we are concerned science has not a "solution" or "answer".

Now to what this thread is about:

I have a huge problem contemplating, understanding, even conceptualising the infinite, infinity, time distance as being infinite- is this due to all my experiences being limited by the finite? Mathematically, "Infinity can be defined as the limit of 1/x as x approaches zero", on a more theoritcal note [thopugh maths does push towards this on many notes...] Infinity can be difened as a "limitless" quantity- and what are the most basic limits our minds can think of? A beginning and an end. Infinity is just that- without a beginning or end; To underline this-

My experience of time:

I was born- I cannot remember this experience, I cannot remember my conception in the womb. Other than what science has told me, other than what I have perceived** [see note], I do not know from whence or crucially, when, I existed. Can the same be said of my death? The moment my conscious mind ceases to exists, when time, as I percieve it, ends, I am not there to witness it- I am not a spectator.It is over. But I shan't know it is. Insofar as I am concerned, time, as I know it and perceive has no beginning or end I can witness, perceive- is it then infinite? Insofar as I am concerned?

My answer is no- at least my argument [perhaps flawed] is. I believe that the universe shall continue to exist without my active participation in it- I shall never know of course.

Following this line of thinking- is my understanding of inifinity [or attempts at] fundamentally flawed? Is this why my mind can't comprehend inifinity? Because all my experiences are by their very nature finite WHILE SEEMING to be inifinte? Do the bounds and limits imposed by my physical existence hold back my mind from understanding things which exceed [vastly] said limits? Can anyone help me overcome this?



** What is reality? Other than my perception of what I BELIEVE to be the physical world around me. How much weight can I give my assumptins about the world? how much of what I know can I hold to be true? Is this real?????? In theory it is perfectly possible [given sufficient technological advances] to simulate the electrical impulses of taste, hearing, sight, touch, smell etc. and as such feed me full of whatever propaganda one wishes. This begs a more significant question- what is reality aside from our perception of it?
You're touching on the old question of

"If a tree falls and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

This can help to explain your question of "What is reality outside of our perception?"
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 18:26   #24
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

This thread hurts enby's brain.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 18:52   #25
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
You're touching on the old question of

"If a tree falls and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

This can help to explain your question of "What is reality outside of our perception?"
No it makes ****ing pigeon pie for three men and a dwarf named Marvin.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 19:10   #26
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Don't include your silly prejudiced beliefs in an ultra-serious thread about infinity








PS What's a gaypole? I have heard of them before but I've really got no idea what it is. That said I'm always up for a good celtic fling so why not
Corrected.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 19:11   #27
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No it makes ****ing pigeon pie for three men and a dwarf named Marvin.
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/2517/forjonny2dv.jpg
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 20:28   #28
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Code:
             _.- ∞ -._
           .'         `.
          /             \
         |               |
        -1               1
         |               |
          \             /
           `._       _.'
              `- 0 -'
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 21:47   #29
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
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Please stop taking the same drugs that s|k is taking, it make you both quite odd at times.
ta.
I've checked my stash and I can confirm that he didn't steal anything from me. :0
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 21:55   #30
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
Code:
_.- ∞ -._
.' `.
/ \
| |
-1 1
| |
\ /
`._ _.'
`- 0 -'
This reminds me of ******. especially the "infinite" bit.

Edit: haha I broke the code but the one above does.

Also, anyone who needs drugs to get that high must have been drinking a lot to get their braincells that low in the beginning.
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 22:22   #31
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This reminds me of ******. especially the "infinite" bit.

Edit: haha I broke the code but the one above does.
Prolapse.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 00:35   #32
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

On behalf of those too proud to ask (hi Yahwe),

What the ****?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 01:06   #33
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Re: [A little hard to follow] Conceptualising Infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
On behalf of those too proud to ask (hi Yahwe),

What the ****?

see i think i ignored this thread and made fun of the other.
the first post is just non-sensical dribble.

or do you mean mark and gordons maths stuff? I've got no clue what that means. I didn't ask because I'm so ignorant that i expect it'd take them too long to expalain.
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