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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 20:58   #1
ChubbyChecker
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Incest is best?

Looks like a brother and sister in Germany have decided to take their relationship to a new level:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6424937.stm

In light of this do you think that laws against incest are right? Are they an anachronism or a necessity?

Personally I find the fact that they have kids together both disgusting and highly irresponsible.
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 21:06   #2
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Re: Incest is best?

Paging horn to thread #193990

It's interesting they only met when they were 23. It's also interesting that the wife looks like she benefited from the breaking down of another taboo; she's clearly a man.

I think it's "genetically weird" if you like. I'm unsure if people should be forced not to have sex with their sisters and brothers though. I'd like to think it's a given (that they won't do so).
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 21:24   #3
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Re: Incest is best?

This discussion is also ongoing at PB but this is a better place for serious discussions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
It's interesting they only met when they were 23.
From what I understood, he was 23 and she was 16.

I don't think that Incest is bad and think that it should be legal as long as the siblings don't have children as there is an increased chance of the child being disabled.
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 22:20   #4
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Re: Incest is best?

I think we should forcibly sterilise anyone who is a carrier of a genetic abnormality or who otherwise is likely to produce seriously unhealthy offspring.
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 23:10   #5
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I think we should forcibly sterilise anyone who is a carrier of a genetic abnormality or who otherwise is likely to produce seriously unhealthy offspring.
Or is a fatty?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 01:15   #6
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Re: Incest is best?

I do not feel it is right at all

why would he pick his sister out of all other woman . Also having 4 kids makes it worse
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 02:29   #7
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Re: Incest is best?

I forget what this moral question is called. It's basically if a mother knows she will have a retarded child if she gets pregnant during the months of september through january has she committed a wrong by doing so. If so who has she wronged!
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 03:15   #8
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Re: Incest is best?

I think its rather beautiful and i don't have a problem with it. I'm not even sure how anyone can abstractly find the concept of incest abhorent, after all twin porn is a wonderous thing. Presumably those who scream the maude flanders scream also want anyone with HIV to be forcibly sterilised. After all we must think of the children, and if it just happens to stop the ******s breeding it can't be a bad thing amirite?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 03:32   #9
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I think we should forcibly sterilise anyone who is a carrier of a genetic abnormality or who otherwise is likely to produce seriously unhealthy offspring.
I'm a carrier of a 3 in 16 million genetic abnormality leading to a shrunken cerebellum, causing ataxic cerebral palsy. It's entirely genetically based - I know that I'm a carrier because my sister suffers from it in the first place.


On that basis, should I be sterilised?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 03:48   #10
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Re: Incest is best?

I think dante was joking (though admitedly its getting harder to tell with him)
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 09:01   #11
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Re: Incest is best?

Where would you draw the line between acceptable and seriously unhealthy offspring though? Joking or not.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 09:21   #12
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
On that basis, should I be sterilised?
why quibble about the basis?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 10:29   #13
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Re: Incest is best?

Relationships between two consenting adults is none of anyone elses business.

I'm not so comfortable about them having kids together but as others have said earlier - where do you draw the line?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 10:36   #14
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Re: Incest is best?

Well, the fact that we don't know where to draw the line doesn't mean it shouldn't be drawn though.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 10:44   #15
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Well, the fact that we don't know where to draw the line doesn't mean it shouldn't be drawn though.
Looks like we've got an opening for criminalising adultery again guys.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 11:18   #16
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Re: Incest is best?

Well, since "we" consists out of "me" and "you" I also don't know where to draw the line. But I don't really agree to the fact that people with mongolism etc. can have babies when it's sure these babies will suffer the same disease. It's a selfish and irresponsable act of the parents.

I know it's a bit of adressing the problem but not giving a solution, but it's not a decision one person can make without research etc.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 11:29   #17
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Re: Incest is best?

more conclusive proof that gd'ers should never breed
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 11:58   #18
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Well, the fact that we don't know where to draw the line doesn't mean it shouldn't be drawn though.
Thats a pretty good reason not to 'draw it'!! If you can't adequately justify a law, it shouldn't be written.

I'll ask what i asked above more explicitly, if you're worried about harming the children would you sterilise HIV+ couples? If medical technology is used to reduce the risk with that, i don't see any problem with allowing it in these types of cases. Embryo screening could prevent most defects.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 12:08   #19
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Re: Incest is best?

I do'nt really know enough about HIV to have a good answer about that. As far as I know people with HIV can lead a normal life (besides taking cocktails of pills), right? If those children have a chance of a normal life then I don't think the parents should be prohibited to get children. However if those children are sure to leave a short life of pain and suffering, then the parents shouldn't be allowed to get them.

All in my opinion ofcourse, and I have no political ambitions so you shouldn't fear the fact that I have thoughts like that.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 12:19   #20
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Re: Incest is best?

I'm fairly sure there's a cocktail of drugs to give HIV+ pregnant mothers to try to stop the child getting HIV.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 12:20   #21
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Re: Incest is best?

If that's the case they certainly shouldn't be denied the possibility of children, in my opinion.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 12:25   #22
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it's called love and respect furball. something a little unfamiliar to your cold broken heart :'(
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but my heart is definitely broken
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 12:33   #23
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Re: Incest is best?

there's an icebox where his heart used to be
there's an icebox where his heart used to be

EVERYBODY!

there's an icebox where his heart used to be

Oh yeah!
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 13:10   #24
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Re: Incest is best?

come back heart! i miss you!!!!





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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 16:36   #25
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i think the point he was making was that this would be the view held by someone consistent in using the reason given for their distaste of incest.
i.e. if they say the reason they "disagree" with incest is because it could lead to a weaker gene pool, then surely other actions that lead to this outcome should be viewed as equally undesired. for instance, letting people with "weak" genes live.
According to the article I quoted when siblings have a kid together there is a 50% chance that the kid will be disabled. This sounds very high to me and it's quite right that the law forbids it. Even if the kid doesn't show any clear signs of disability it's gotta mess you up genetically to have parents that are so closely related. Just look at the royal family as a sign of what inbreeding does to you.

Things like hereditary diseases and higher risk of downs syndrome with mothers over 40 can be got around with embryo screening and I don't see a problem with making it compulsory for all people who are likely to pass on a disability to their offspring. After all we have the technology and it would be criminal not to use it to improve the quality of life of everybody.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 19:23   #26
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I think dante was joking (though admitedly its getting harder to tell with him)
It wasn't a joke, I was trying to show how this anti-incest stuff would end up, if logically applied. (Actually, I just scanned through the rest of the thread and horn has noticed this already so \o/)

And no furball, I wouldn't have you sterilised. Having met me, I'm sure you might nave noticed I'm hardly the living embodiment of the ubermensch myself and when people start talking about "undesirables" (in any sense of the word) I'm usually in the majority of categories. Enlightened self-interest means I'm not a fan of such politics.

(Although thinking about it logically, my mother is only alive due to Ireland's irrational laws on abortion so maybe one can't base ones politics on such things.)

p.s. If I had a sister and she was attractive I'd like to think I'd sleep with her. But she wouldn't be attractive, if the females in my family are anything to go by.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:40   #27
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Re: Incest is best?

Some of my cousins are attractive
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:49   #28
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Re: Incest is best?

Hey Kila u are back early from your after school scouts club today
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 21:03   #29
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Re: Incest is best?

After giving this matter some thought, I have come to the conclusion that I really don't care what people do to each other (of a sexual nature) so long as it is concensual and done in private and then they shut the f*** up about it.

Most of these things are things I do not need to know.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 22:00   #30
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Re: Incest is best?

Hi Rinoa; have you come back to the internet because the treatment for your chronic shitness has ended?

Oh wait I still see the symptoms
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 22:40   #31
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
This discussion is also ongoing at PB but this is a better place for serious discussions.


From what I understood, he was 23 and she was 16.

I don't think that Incest is bad and think that it should be legal as long as the siblings don't have children as there is an increased chance of the child being disabled.
Bearing that in mind you'll be taken as seriously over there as you are here.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 01:55   #32
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I do'nt really know enough about HIV to have a good answer about that. As far as I know people with HIV can lead a normal life (besides taking cocktails of pills), right?
HIV is a precursor to a terminal disease - AIDS. There is no cure although, where available, a cocktail of extremely powerful retro-viral drugs can delay the onset of full blown AIDS. These drugs have considerable side-effects and the most effective are prohibitively expensive. It should also be noted that there are different strains of HIV with the best drugs being developed for those that generally affect 1st world Caucasians. If you have the misfortune to be a black African you will be dead inside 2 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furball
I'm fairly sure there's a cocktail of drugs to give HIV+ pregnant mothers to try to stop the child getting HIV.
In a case where a pregnant woman receives no treatment there is about a 1 in 4 chance the child will be born with HIV. This drops to almost nil where treatment is available. Unfortunately, even those children who dodge that bullet can later be infected through their mothers breast milk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chubbychecker
Things like hereditary diseases and higher risk of downs syndrome with mothers over 40 can be got around with embryo screening
The embryos of sibling couples can also be screened. Unless it is your contention that genetic defects caused by incest are somehow magical in nature and defy current medical screening technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i personally find it utterly disgusting that these people have to justify themselves to others who feel their repressed sexual hang ups and learned social norms give them some kind of entitlement to tell these people what is right and wrong.
The only way I could improve this sentence would be to add a capital I at the beginning.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 03:42   #33
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Re: Incest is best?

I think I remember Prof Robert Winston saying that although offspring of incestuous couples had a greater chance of birth defects, there is also a chance that the children would be genetically stronger as it may pick up all the strong elements from the parents
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 08:42   #34
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
I think I remember Prof Robert Winston saying that although offspring of incestuous couples had a greater chance of birth defects, there is also a chance that the children would be genetically stronger as it may pick up all the strong elements from the parents
Eh. Isn't that the case with all children of random parents aswell? That or I don't understand what you mean with "picking up the strong elements". :/
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 11:48   #35
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Re: Incest is best?

they made it illegal in the 1st place for reasons, are those reasons still valid ?

reason 1 much greater risk of children born with genetic problems ?

reason 2 proving abuse issues ?

dont need to look very far back historically to see why reason 1 is valid, and dont forget .. even if the child of the 2 remains healthy'ish, it then goes on to produce its own offspring, which inherit the genetic issue.. and so and and so on, if allowed to continue the gene pool becomes rather murky, i'm not adovocating sterisation, but more that theese people think above their hormones for more than 5 minutes, screw yer sister or brother all you want as long as it is consenual, just take precautions and dont produce any kids.
You have no idea how the genes will splice and what problems your creating for further generations.

what they are doings is VERY selfish !!
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 12:21   #36
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Eh. Isn't that the case with all children of random parents aswell? That or I don't understand what you mean with "picking up the strong elements". :/
Lets look at hair colour as an example. Lets assume that blonde, which is recessive, is equivilent to some genetic disease, and brown is some quality an ubermensch would possess. Let us assume that each parent has a copy of the blonde chromosome (Bl) and the brown one (Br).

There is a 1/4 chance that the child will end up Bl, and thus the mating is a failure. There is a 1/2 chance that it will end up with the same hair colour chromosome distribution as its parents, and 1/4 that it will end up with a superior one, with Br/Br.

That's the basis of the argument, really. However, like lots of the things that Winston has to say, it's flawed - either meaningless or such a low outcome, probability wise, that it should be ignored.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 22:43   #37
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
.. even if the child of the 2 remains healthy'ish, it then goes on to produce its own offspring, which inherit the genetic issue.. and so and and so on, if allowed to continue the gene pool becomes rather murky, i'm not adovocating sterisation, but more that theese people think above their hormones for more than 5 minutes, screw yer sister or brother all you want as long as it is consenual, just take precautions and dont produce any kids.
You have no idea how the genes will splice and what problems your creating for further generations.

what they are doings is VERY selfish !!
What you are describing here is called the 'founder effect.' Very simply put, as a genepool becomes increasingly restricted ever more divergent DNA patterns are likely to result. This is a direct cause of speciation (creation of new species) and were this never to have happened the Earth would be a desolate wasteland. It is why there are monkey, apes, chimpanzees and rhinos. Why there are white, black, brown and yellow people.

If you are suggesting that this is somehow morally wrong (*sigh*) then might I enquire as to how you feel about other such closed population groups where the practice of restricted breeding is commonplace? For example the Amish community in America rarely marry or, more importantly, breed outside their community. This practice has resulted in a far higher rate of certain genetic disorders. Perhaps what's needed is to set up a nazi-style stud farm and breed the bitches with an assortment of genetically different outsiders.

After all, what they are doing is VERY selfish.

edit: grammar

Last edited by Achilles; 9 Mar 2007 at 22:55.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 22:48   #38
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Perhaps what's needed is to set up a nazi-style stud farm and breed the bitches with an assortment of genetically different outsiders.

After all, what they are doing is VERY selfish.
I completely agree. this is a very good idea.
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Unread 10 Mar 2007, 20:07   #39
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
What you are describing here is called the 'founder effect.' Very simply put, as a genepool becomes increasingly restricted ever more divergent DNA patterns are likely to result. This is a direct cause of speciation (creation of new species) and were this never to have happened the Earth would be a desolate wasteland. It is why there are monkey, apes, chimpanzees and rhinos. Why there are white, black, brown and yellow people.

If you are suggesting that this is somehow morally wrong (*sigh*) then might I enquire as to how you feel about other such closed population groups where the practice of restricted breeding is commonplace? For example the Amish community in America rarely marry or, more importantly, breed outside their community. This practice has resulted in a far higher rate of certain genetic disorders. Perhaps what's needed is to set up a nazi-style stud farm and breed the bitches with an assortment of genetically different outsiders.

After all, what they are doing is VERY selfish.

edit: grammar
theese people are not part of a community that advocates that, if the Amish or whatever community decide to breed within that community then so be it, but even they dont breed/marry offspring between such close realtions/DNA
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Unread 11 Mar 2007, 05:01   #40
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Re: Incest is best?

I heard a joke today...

A guy is ****ing his sister when she starts laughing. He asks her what's funny and she says, "You're just like dad in bed."

To which he responds, "That's what mom said."
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Unread 12 Mar 2007, 23:33   #41
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Relationships between two consenting adults is none of anyone elses business.

I'm not so comfortable about them having kids together but as others have said earlier - where do you draw the line?
didnt you just answear your question? a line is drown upon conceiveing!
am i rite?
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 11:03   #42
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Re: Incest is best?

Interestingly its already legal in other parts of europe, not only france!
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 11:59   #43
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
didnt you just answear your question? a line is drown upon conceiveing!
am i rite?
it was more the "if we stop them conceiving because of possible genetic disorders then what about all the other people conceiving that could pass on genetic disorders" situation that I was referring to.
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yeh so Plastic Brilliance is now known as FOXYSTOAT - Come on by and check it out!
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 16:09   #44
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Re: Incest is best?

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Originally Posted by Ste
it was more the "if we stop them conceiving because of possible genetic disorders then what about all the other people conceiving that could pass on genetic disorders" situation that I was referring to.
oh rite
But there is a legal approach to incest while theres is none regarding conceiving defectees. I think that the incest could be easily regulated, where relations of people with bad genes cant.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 16:14   #45
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Re: Incest is best?

Neer. It could be done, quite easily.
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Unread 15 Mar 2007, 05:02   #46
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
theese people are not part of a community that advocates that, if the Amish or whatever community decide to breed within that community then so be it, but even they dont breed/marry offspring between such close realtions/DNA
I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that it would be ok for them to have an incestuous relationship if they were part of a community where such things were commonplace? If so, why? If not, then can you explain why it is acceptable for certain groups (incl. Amish) to risk having genetically homogenised children and not for others?
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Unread 15 Mar 2007, 18:22   #47
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
I think I remember Prof Robert Winston saying that although offspring of incestuous couples had a greater chance of birth defects, there is also a chance that the children would be genetically stronger as it may pick up all the strong elements from the parents
Your first mistake would be citing Professor Robert Winston as a credible source for anything other than pop science and entertainment.
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Unread 16 Mar 2007, 17:36   #48
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Re: Incest is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
Maybe that's why he failed in helping my adoptive parents to conceive. As an IVF consultant.
[/url]
I know who he is.

He graduated from The London Hospital Medical College, London University, in 1964 with a degree in medicine and achieved prominence as an expert in human fertility.

I'd hope he knew his stuff about IVF.

It's the way he masquerades as a Scientist/Expert of Everything Under The Sun that irritates me (and a large proportion of the scientific community, also).
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