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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 02:48   #1
pig
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Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6325319.stm
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 04:12   #2
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Doesn't say what the price of gas is.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 08:10   #3
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Exclamation Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Here in Minnesota most of our oil comes from Canada. Other than the fact that our local tv stations are apparently required to air episodes of The Red Green Show in exchange, it's been otherwise terror-free.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 09:04   #4
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

its freedom fries all over again.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 10:54   #5
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

damn terrorists why wont they just give us their oil and fuk off
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 10:58   #6
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

A teacher of mine in college who was a former navy man told us in business management class one day "We should just nuke Iran, pave it over, and turn it into the world's biggest self-serve for oil tankers. Just pull up, fill up, and get going."
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 11:20   #7
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Presumably these people realise that if America were to boycott "Middle-Eastern" oil they would be violation of their agreements with OPEC. Meaning an oil shortage where the only thing moving faster than the rising price of gas would be the economy flowing down the drain.

So it's just a rather poor marketing gimmick. Presumably.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 12:18   #8
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Oh god.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 14:02   #9
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
So it's just a rather poor marketing gimmick. Presumably.
That's a bit silly.

We can't judge whether it is good or bad marketting until it succeeds or fails. Indeed one would imagine that provided the cost is not ridiculously prohibitive that it has at least some chance of success.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 14:17   #10
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

In one sense this is a good thing (in that it's a nice idea to avoid supporting regimes like those in the Middle East), however it remains fundamentally naive since there obviously isnt enough oil in the US and Canada to run the economy hence the only reason this scheme can work is because others are prepared to use Middle East oil instead. If every petrol station tried to adopt similar measures then petrol would cost about $1000000 for a gallon.

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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 19:51   #11
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

I purchase my gasoline, on most occasions, from ARCO stations, a subsidiary of British Petroleum.
[God Bless the Queen!]

Where you chappies get your oil from, the North Sea, or where ever, is all the same to me.

I will, however, not go to a Citgo station (not a difficult decision as there are none in Stockton anyway) as it is Venezuelan oil.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 20:39   #12
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Bloody Venezualans and their terrorist campaigns around the globe.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 20:52   #13
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

As much as I respect your principled stance dda why on earth have you singled out venezuela from the myriad of human rights violating countries we have out there?
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 23:14   #14
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Nice bit of making a profit from the current political situation IMO

Quote:
its freedom fries all over again.
your quite right phil ..
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 23:17   #15
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
Nice bit of making a profit from the current political situation IMO
I see nobody's bothering to read the last sentence
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 23:27   #16
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Yes i did .. but even so .. a few fruit loops who cant see that they are being played using what they think is a concience will use it and the owners will make a large profit
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 01:09   #17
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

You're all liberal trolls.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 02:38   #18
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As much as I respect your principled stance dda why on earth have you singled out venezuela from the myriad of human rights violating countries we have out there?
Cos they are filthy socialists
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 03:55   #19
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
You're all liberal trolls.
???

trolls who let their children stay out late? or trolls who sit around all day dreaming of Gladstone?
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 09:41   #20
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
You're all liberal trolls.
one, two, many, lots :P
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 10:22   #21
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
You're all liberal trolls.
why arent you banned yet? :crymeariver:
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 14:43   #22
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

For someone with an indian/french name I find this highly amusing ...
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 18:12   #23
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

I hope it explodes and kills everyone in a five mile radius to ensure anyone who might have contracted nationalistic retardation from proplonged exposure to such pollutants are exterminated.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 20:35   #24
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I hope it explodes and kills everyone in a five mile radius to ensure anyone who might have contracted nationalistic retardation from proplonged exposure to such pollutants are exterminated.
And you thought I had serial killer potential...that's nothing compared to genocide of retarded people.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 20:36   #25
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

But I'm too lazy to actually do anything about it.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 20:55   #26
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
But I'm too lazy to actually do anything about it.
Careful, that's a very American attitude, being too lazy to do anything about stuff.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 20:57   #27
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Not when it comes to violence.
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Unread 6 Feb 2007, 01:23   #28
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Bloody Venezualans and their terrorist campaigns around the globe.
Hugo tchaves is ****ing numbnut. He staged a coup a few years ago and now (much like a good old nazi after the burning of the reichstag) he has all the power he needs to do nasty things, from importing migs, ak´s, and whatnot from ex socialist countries, to writting his name on the national flag and draw a leftist horse on it. Not to mention the outrageous campaining on foreign coutries to undermine the influence of dilligent and responsible governments, like Chile and Brazil. He already placed his puppet regimes on equator and bolivia, marching on many others... Media blackout has been his weapon of choice since the coup, and the main TV and News station is going to be dismantled.

And thats what you can do with petrodollars.... think of a wealthy Castro....
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Unread 6 Feb 2007, 08:53   #29
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Hugo tchaves is ****ing numbnut. He staged a coup a few years ago and now (much like a good old nazi after the burning of the reichstag)
Are you claiming he staged the 2002 coup? If so, can you provide evidence?

Or are you talking about the one which took place 15 years ago and was a failure?
Quote:
he has all the power he needs to do nasty things, from importing migs, ak´s, and whatnot from ex socialist countries, to writting his name on the national flag and draw a leftist horse on it.
Given the context of Latin American political history generally, these hardly sound like particularly "nasty" things. Especially if you compare Venezuala to the bloody military dictatorships which have occurred in the past in Argentina, Chile and Brazil.

As for the Venezualan flag, where does it have his name on it? The changes which took place recently put the eighth star on and the coat of arms which does not have Chavez's name in it. Yes, the horse now points left instead of right....so what?

Defence spending is a waste and I would prefer it if governments did not spend their resources on such things, but I would point out that Venezuala spends less of their GDP on it's military than Brazil and far less than the United States.

To be honest your three "nasty things" are pretty feeble tbh, especially when viewed against the considerable gains in Venezuala which have been made in the provision of healthcare, literary programs, etc.
Quote:
He already placed his puppet regimes on equator and bolivia, marching on many others...
These "puppet regimes" are both the results of democratic elections which saw an upsurge in populism. Yes, I'm sure the results in Venezuala influenced other elections, as people are seeing the potential in such movements.

And besides what influence Venezuala does exert is a healthy counter-balance to the influence of the United States and Europe who traditionally have (at least tacitly) supported the old elites who have governed a region which despite considerable natural resources has grinding poverty for a good proportion of it's citizens. It's hilarious to hear people like Condoleezza Rice speak of Venezuala's interference with other countries affairs when the United States has thousands of occupying troops in other countries and has a long and shameful history in Latin America in particular of supporting which ever unsavoury regime is perceived to support their interests.

As for the comparison with Castro, I agree upto a point (although one cannot over-simplify) but I would need see this as much of a criticism of Chavez.

You speak of nazi's but to be honest your reaction sounds like it fits Leon Trotsky's definition of fascism as "the petty-bourgeois run amok".
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Unread 6 Feb 2007, 08:57   #30
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
predictable pro chavez rant
Why did you not comment on this alleged media blackout?

Is it true?
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Unread 6 Feb 2007, 15:48   #31
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Exclamation Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

When the Chinese became rambunctious about the notion of us selling heroin to millions of their people, we invaded their country, massacred the shit out of them, sank their painted barges, de-bollocked the imperial government's tax collectors, and forcibly annexed Hong Kong, together with it's many and various types of nubile and subtle ladyboys. *hohobuusuduu*

I implore the Saudi government to follow our example and consider a similar course of action in this instance. The continuity of global trade must be maintained.

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Unread 6 Feb 2007, 16:07   #32
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Exclamation Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Bloody Venezualans and their terrorist campaigns around the globe.
It's also curious that they're apparenlty not buying Mexican oil, which is the US' bosom chum, particularly of late with Calderón as President.

I'm surprised that they're even buying it from a Franco-homosexual country like Canada, tbh. Although Canada is a white country lead by a right-winger so perhaps they're borderline 'okay.'
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Unread 6 Feb 2007, 17:19   #33
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Why did you not comment on this alleged media blackout?
Mainly because I have very little to add beyond my general comments here, here or here.
Quote:
Is it true?
I should imagine that it's difficult to get an accurate information about a media blackout if it is true, so it's difficult to say.

What seems generally true to say is :
- There are serious restrictions on freedom of the press in Venezuala (even when going by the standards of the developing world). It would not be an exaggeration to say such restrictions are basically criminal.

- Restrictions on the freedom of the press (aside from the violence, etc) include in particular new laws on "social responsibility" in the media and other restrictions on defaming the government or somesuch. Chavez has said publicly he would not use such powers, but one hardly takes a potential tyrant at his word.

- Such restrictions have got worse over the last five years or so. In the Reporters sans frontiers ranking Venezuala dropped from 77th (already pretty poor) to 115th (almost in the bottom 25% of all countries on earth). This by any standards is shockingly bad, and represents one of the worst in the region. In fact, of mainland South America there are only two countries scoring worse in 2005.

- Restrictions on the press are probably part of a much wider problem with human rights abuses - in particular persecution on political grounds. These have been documented by Amnesty International, the Organisation of America's and Human Rights Watch among others. Some of this violence can be blamed on the "usual" Latin American problems - the local bosses, heavy handed and often corupt policing, corruption in the government and so on. Venezualan police have been linked to at least a hundred murders in the last couple of years from the little I've read. To put this in context, the Brazilian police are alleged to have killed (not murdered I hasten to add so not a direct comparison) approximately 1,100 people in 2003 in the state of Rio alone (which has about 50-60% of the population of Venezuela).

- However, other instances of violence can be squarely attributed to Chavez and his supporters. The US State department say that Chavez's supporters were involved in threats, assaults, vandalism, arson, intimidation of journalists and other forms of violence(although I can find no allegation of murder). Since a large proportion of these political murders do not seem to get properly investigated, it is fair to say that the central government certainly can be considered responsible for much for this violence (against journalists and other activists).

- The media is overwhelmingly in the hands of a wealthy elite, both native and foriegn. On the whole, they still operate - albeit with interference and restriction as mentioned above. They are generally hostile to both Chavez and his politics. Overall it's worth noting that the largest television stations and newspapers are in the hands of "the opposition".

- In the 2002 anti-Chavez coup the Venezuelan media (TV in particular) were generally supportive of the coup and of the strike which preceeded it - with it being alleged they went as far as censoring later demonstrations which were held to restore Chavez to power. I am not aware of any prosecutions for these actions.

- Foriegn journalists still operate in Venezuela and foriegn media companies are still based in Venezuela. These include employees of Reuters, the BBC, CNN and others.

Overall, I'd say no - there is not a media blackout. There are (for now) a host of sources of news on the country, both from NGOs, independent journalists, the opposition press, CNN and it's local offshoots, etc. A great many of these are critical of Chavez. However there are certainly serious restrictions of the freedom of the press which form part of a wider pattern of human rights abuses inside Venezuela (many related to Chavez). Are thay unacceptable? Absolutley. Could these get worse? Sadly yes. Are nations which are allies of the United States guilty of worse? Yes. Does this excuse Chavez? No, of course not.
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Unread 7 Feb 2007, 01:07   #34
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As much as I respect your principled stance dda why on earth have you singled out venezuela from the myriad of human rights violating countries we have out there?
I think Hugo Chavez is a ninny!

Human rights be damned, I'm a Republican!
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Unread 7 Feb 2007, 01:16   #35
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Chavez is raising a million man army to defend Venezuela from an imminent American invasion, according to him. He has militia marching around with wooden guns. When no American invasion materializes, what will he do with a million man army, I wonder. Watch out oil workers, copper miners, etc.
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Unread 7 Feb 2007, 07:55   #36
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Do we need a new Godwin's Law for the new millenium?
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Unread 9 Feb 2007, 01:16   #37
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Are you claiming he staged the 2002 coup? If so, can you provide evidence?

Or are you talking about the one which took place 15 years ago and was a failure?
No, i mean the institutional coup last week, where he received the infamous ermächtigunsgesetz, which roughly translates to 'habilitating law', meaning he no longer has to respect any of the other fundamental powers - legislative and judiciary - and will rule by decrees. Essentially the last straw to oficcialy settle a state of dictatorship

Quote:
Given the context of Latin American political history generally, these hardly sound like particularly "nasty" things. Especially if you compare Venezuala to the bloody military dictatorships which have occurred in the past in Argentina, Chile and Brazil.
The world was completely different back then. Every bit of the world counted. Hundreds or Thousands or hundreds of thousands of americans and russians would die every time a forgotten corner of world would choose either to go left or right. Millions of locals would be killed in the process. It was battlefield Earth.

Chaves still lives in that world. He thinks the US and the world gives a crap about his political views and he also thinks that there is another pole to go to (mother russia?)
You seem to comprehend under developed countries as somewhat of a anoxic and static state of affairs where the riches **** up the poor, and they havent got a chance of turning the tides.

I wish it was like that

The problem is that every 30-40 years or so, someone thinks the current government is full of shit, and then he makes a military coup, or he wins the elections, or buy his way up the top, whatever, and when he reaches the top, he goes like 'everything done up to this day is shit and worthless, we will start from scratch' And off this person goes, destroyng the previous matrix of development before it sputters any significant growth.

On and on. Like here in brazil. we got the indepedence, then the king ran away with all our money to Portugal. His son proceeds to destroy the jesuits, which cared a lot about building schools and taming the wilds, and then he gets kicked out in 1889, and in the 1930s the previous democratic government is overthrown, only to be obliteraded in 1946 due to its links with the nazi-fascist regime, proceeding to 1962, when we got a parlamentarist government with leftist intents, and then we got the infamous 1964 military right coup, only to be overthrown with the 1988 constitution.



Every single of these changes involved fundamental changes in the way the state ran, the political axis was set, the scholar doutrination was prepared, the way our roads where paved and which position people made love.

Thus, no measure that takes more than 4 years or so to be completed is done. Our capital city, Brasilia, had to be made in only 4 years. This translated to rampant corruption, absolute abuses in relation to budget laws, elemetal problems with infraestructure, and, of course, an insidious defict which, amongst other things, lead to our colapse and subsequential dictatorship. Note that brasilia was built by a democratic government.

Hence, you gotta realise that politics, in developing countries, is 80% a tool to materialize one´s ambitions, and 20% measures to ensure the continuation of the government (good things).

Britain had its share of revolutions. 1 in the last millenium, am I right? 1069 put aside we got the change of rulers, not the change of goverments. What if britain had something like five 1069´s each century? Welcome to developing nations!

In conclusion, It does not matter if it is left, right, up, left down whatever. If our governments last more than one generation, we could stand a chance.




Quote:
As for the Venezualan flag, where does it have his name on it? The changes which took place recently put the eighth star on and the coat of arms which does not have Chavez's name in it. Yes, the horse now points left instead of right....so what?
Put things in perspetive. What if Tatcher changed the flag to ' i hate punks' and then blair changed the flag to ' workers party rules' or something like that?
Its a political abomination, its an embarassement to the flag and to the country it represents, and a disgrace to the sense that government should attend to the concerns of the people, instead of a place for self promotion.




Quote:
Defence spending is a waste and I would prefer it if governments did not spend their resources on such things, but I would point out that Venezuala spends less of their GDP on it's military than Brazil and far less than the United States.
brazil has active peacekeeping forces, it is an active member of UN, as the US. Hugo´s interests are self congratulation/masturbation.

Quote:
To be honest your three "nasty things" are pretty feeble tbh, especially when viewed against the considerable gains in Venezuala which have been made in the provision of healthcare, literary programs, etc.
so here is a quote for you

Quote:
Originally posted by Benjamin Franklin
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both
Its not for security, but the quote still applies. The little good that he may make does not make up for all the other losses.

May i add that these literary/educational programs are based on banning capitalist books and teaching the biased comunist doctrine?


Quote:
These "puppet regimes" are both the results of democratic elections which saw an upsurge in populism. Yes, I'm sure the results in Venezuala influenced other elections, as people are seeing the potential in such movements.
'people' dont "see anything". Things are shown and explained to the people, including what they must do when they get to the voting ballots. Hitler did that and god knows that Hugo can do the same. Specially if you got a wallet full of petrodollars.

Quote:
And besides what influence Venezuala does exert is a healthy counter-balance to the influence of the United States and Europe who traditionally have (at least tacitly) supported the old elites who have governed a region which despite considerable natural resources has grinding poverty for a good proportion of it's citizens. It's hilarious to hear people like Condoleezza Rice speak of Venezuala's interference with other countries affairs when the United States has thousands of occupying troops in other countries and has a long and shameful history in Latin America in particular of supporting which ever unsavoury regime is perceived to support their interests.
the difference is that hugo told Evo morales sever its ties to the rest of the world, leading bolivia in the absolute oblivion where forgotten and shitty countries like Myammar live. US put south korea and other asiatic tigers on the map, Japan and western germany on the top, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates on the civilized world (despite being surround by a sea of plain wrogness).
I would take my chances with the US in the blink of an eye.

Quote:

As for the comparison with Castro, I agree upto a point (although one cannot over-simplify) but I would need see this as much of a criticism of Chavez.

You speak of nazi's but to be honest your reaction sounds like it fits Leon Trotsky's definition of fascism as "the petty-bourgeois run amok".
I have not heard such comment, though i wouldnt be surprised if this sentence were written by a sovjet official in some gullag
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Unread 9 Feb 2007, 01:27   #38
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Maybe he'll get out of control and invade various nations in the Middle East using dubious military intelligence as a cover story. Wouldn't that be just awful?
I suspect that the people in middle Venezuela are much more at risk.

A million man army in Venezuela will surely turn into an instrument of repression within Venezuela regardless of cynical remarks to the contrary.
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Unread 9 Feb 2007, 01:36   #39
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

I didn't realise Hugh Chavez could rule by decree now actually. Because that has had such a storied and successful history in human affairs!


Again apparently. Hay at least he avoided killing off a minor demographic group I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Rumsfeld
In Venezuela, we have Chavez, who possesses lots of money that stem from oil. He was legally elected, as Hitler was.
You can see here that he's focusing on Hitler's bad points. I'm just surprised he forgot to mention he was Austrian and a painter.
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Unread 9 Feb 2007, 02:43   #40
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Your failure to see the irony in this quote astonishes me.
Please enlight me
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Unread 9 Feb 2007, 11:22   #41
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I purchase my gasoline, on most occasions, from ARCO stations, a subsidiary of British Petroleum.
BP is the entire name, as of shortly after a 1998 merger. It no longer stands for British Petrolium.
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Unread 9 Feb 2007, 19:03   #42
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
He thinks the US and the world gives a crap about his political views
Erm...they do give a crap about his political views. That's why there's plenty of commentary from Rice (as mentioned previously) and Rumsfield about his politics. This is why Bush has openly condemned him. That's why there is American support for the opposition in Venezuela. That is why there is some evidence of American involvement in 2002's attempted coup.

Quote:
You seem to comprehend under developed countries as somewhat of a anoxic and static state of affairs where the riches **** up the poor, and they havent got a chance of turning the tides.

I wish it was like that
I don't believe I ever said that. What I would say is that in many parts of the under-developed world there are horrific levels of inequality. This is especially true in Latin America which has been hailed as the most unequal region on Earth. And Venezuela, which is quite a wealthy country (in terms of resources) is a prime example of this. The political elites (either democratic or military) did very little to resolve the poverty suffered by many millions of people.

I'd also add that this 30-40 year shift that you describe does not happen everywhere - in Mexico the PRI held power for seventy years. And conversely (continental) Europe has until recently suffered fairly calamtious politics too - the number of interstate wars alone from 1800 to 1945 being fairly impressive in number, and with it the number of collapses of the French government. But I'm not sure what all this has to do with Chavez.
Quote:
Put things in perspetive. What if Tatcher changed the flag to ' i hate punks' and then blair changed the flag to ' workers party rules' or something like that?
I don't give a shit about our national flag, but you've still not answered the question. Where is his name? Or did you mean this metaphorically? I agree that political egotism is revolting, but it's hardly the most important issue in this context.
Quote:
brazil has active peacekeeping forces, it is an active member of UN, as the US. Hugo´s interests are self congratulation/masturbation.
If the armed forces of the United States were merely used for masturbation then I suspect we might live in a better world.
Quote:
May i add that these literary/educational programs are based on banning capitalist books and teaching the biased comunist doctrine?
Can you provide a list of books banned? I've done some light google searching and can only find reference to the Satanic Verses being banned, in 1989 - some years before Chavez came into office.
Quote:
Saudi Arabia and the Emirates on the civilized world (despite being surround by a sea of plain wrogness).
Are you giving Saudi Arabia as an example of the civilised world? A country which sits 46 places lower in the RSF rankings on press freedoms than Venezuela? A country which Amnesty International says has regular beheadings by swords (especially against foriegn workers), illegal or unfair trials, torture in the criminal justice system, a complete lack of due process, that punishes people by amputation? This is civilisation to you?
Quote:
I would take my chances with the US in the blink of an eye.
No doubt, but as you say you wish the rich could **** up the poor continually, this is hardly surprising.
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Unread 9 Feb 2007, 22:52   #43
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

I was trying to say that he thinks he is 1961´s Cuba, and he tries to feel all too important about that, despite the fact that the US was willing to have a nuclear showdown about it, and today its hard to find a shred of evidence on the Us alleged support of the coup.

Im sorry but the putting name was a mistranslation of a portuguese term.


I interpreted the 'lasting powers of the elites' as a statement that rich people would squander the resources on themselves, and not having a care in the world about the poor. To me it sounds like the ill fated term I used to describe the situation. I proceeded to explain that in south america it is not the case. Mexico is a different scenario.

Collapses of the french government? I thought there was a hiatus in the napoleonic wars and then on WWII :S. Am i wrong?

The reason for the unbalaced wealth generation has to do with us being catholic, and having pleasure in poorness and lack of interest in mundane things. This is slowly changing. It is vastly discussed and a lot better explained on Die protestantische Ethik und der 'Geist' des Kapitalismus. Blaming the élites for uneven income is as stale and unhelpfull as blaming rich countries for the existence of poor countries.


When i said
Quote:
Originally posted by Muslim
I wish it was like that
I meant i wish there was a government that could last for a while, given that every and any government aims at perpetuating its existence, which can only happen by keep people happy, meaning evolving.


I never lived with the Saudis, but i expect it to be a lot better than its counterparts, despite these nuisances, considering things like women walking around in normal clothing, having rights and etc.
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Unread 10 Feb 2007, 00:05   #44
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
All his posts in this thread
I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything but is anyone else having difficulty following BMs posts in this thread? Is it a language thing or am I just misinterpreting what he is saying?

to be honest, the only bit I think I've interpreted correctly is that you think Saudi Arabia the is least abhorrent Muslim country in the Middle East. Is that what you believe?
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Unread 10 Feb 2007, 00:33   #45
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Wink Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

No, but its better than Iran..

I apologize, my english is very rusty. Any help on that would come in handy.

I also have little time to write, which prevents me to order ideas in a more pleasant way. I also ask for your forgiveness
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Unread 10 Feb 2007, 02:25   #46
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Collapses of the french government? I thought there was a hiatus in the napoleonic wars and then on WWII :S. Am i wrong?
Well, there was a revolution in 1789 (obviously), then Napolean became Emperor, was defeated and replaced by a king, who was then overthrown and replaced by another monarch. There was another revolution in 1830 and another monarchy of sorts until 1848 then the other Napolean became President (and shortly after Emperor). Then you had the whole business with the Prussians invading in 1870 (and of course, the Paris Commune) which led to the Third Republic. Then there was the business where the country was engaged in one of the worst wars in human history and large swathes of the country were a battlefield. After that was over there was a half-time rest and in the second half the whole country was invaded leading to yet another regime change. After that was over with there was more strife involving some troublesome North African types which led to the constitution being ammended in the 50's which brought the French to their Fifth Republic (and counting). Apart from that, it's all been steady as a rock...
Quote:
The reason for the unbalaced wealth generation has to do with us being catholic, and having pleasure in poorness and lack of interest in mundane things.
Umm....no. A nations religious background will of course influence the politics of a nation, but to say that the unbalanced "wealth generation" (as you call it) is mainly down to people not being interested in "mundane things" is nonsense. Somewhere like Brazil has a gini co-efficient much more in line with South Africa (majority protestant) than it does with Croatia, Spain or Ireland (majority catholic). These things are much more down to the political history of these countries and the way that struggles have manifested in political structures, etc. Overall, I doubt it has much to do with people "taking pleasure from poorness".
Quote:
I meant i wish there was a government that could last for a while, given that every and any government aims at perpetuating its existence, which can only happen by keep people happy, meaning evolving.
This logic is rather simple minded since it implies no-one should ever challenge the status quo. Following what you've said, I presume you want Chavez to stay in power for as long as possible?

Not every government (or system of government) is worth keeping, some (e.g. apartheid South Africa) need to be abolished or overthrown. Change shouldn't happen for change's sake but when governments stand in the way of human progress then they should be dispensed with.

Besides, your military dictatorship lasted twenty years. Wasn't that enough?
Quote:
I never lived with the Saudis, but i expect it to be a lot better than its counterparts, despite these nuisances, considering things like women walking around in normal clothing, having rights and etc.
Well, Saudi Arabia may be better than Iran (even that's arguable) but that's daming with faint praise. By most indictators, Saudi Arabia scores badly - even compared to some other countries in the same region. I'm still mystified how you can hold it up as an example of civilised behaviour.
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Unread 10 Feb 2007, 23:11   #47
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, there was a revolution in 1789 (obviously), then Napolean became Emperor, was defeated and replaced by a king, who was then overthrown and replaced by another monarch. There was another revolution in 1830 and another monarchy of sorts until 1848 then the other Napolean became President (and shortly after Emperor). Then you had the whole business with the Prussians invading in 1870 (and of course, the Paris Commune) which led to the Third Republic. Then there was the business where the country was engaged in one of the worst wars in human history and large swathes of the country were a battlefield. After that was over there was a half-time rest and in the second half the whole country was invaded leading to yet another regime change. After that was over with there was more strife involving some troublesome North African types which led to the constitution being ammended in the 50's which brought the French to their Fifth Republic (and counting). Apart from that, it's all been steady as a rock...

you still havent grasp the idea, have you? Israelis havent had a country in thousands of years, still no one denies they are a nation, as they have been in the past millenia. French will be french with or without a soil too.

Brazil is not a nation. Its a state. We got every kind of ethnic and political group of the world. We have no commom culture, we dont have any identity, folklore, whatever. We are not the US. All we got is our state. As I said earlier, A change of ruler meant a change of culture, identity, and the rebirth of the nation. We got a president that banned bikinis, public displays of affection and what not. And it was 1961! Many today think these are the very heart of our culture

Think of our central government as Tito and the civils as a peaceful Yoguslavia. Still our differences are staggering. Most of our latin american counterparts still suffer from this issue. Can you single out a Cost rican from a Belizan?

With that issue settled, I think now you can understand that if a change of government is able to change the face its subordinates, what to say about long term projects? They never happen. They never flourish. Real growth and distribution of wealth can only occur in a stable nation.


Of course nothing is explained as simply as that, but it is one of the prerequisites.



Quote:
Umm....no. A nations religious background will of course influence the politics of a nation, but to say that the unbalanced "wealth generation" (as you call it) is mainly down to people not being interested in "mundane things" is nonsense. Somewhere like Brazil has a gini co-efficient much more in line with South Africa (majority protestant) than it does with Croatia, Spain or Ireland (majority catholic). These things are much more down to the political history of these countries and the way that struggles have manifested in political structures, etc. Overall, I doubt it has much to do with people "taking pleasure from poorness".
as i said there is no one single reason for everything. Comparing Brazil´s 90% catholics with a minor white elite protestant in South Africa is unhelpfull. Also comparing a south american country with european countries...

And I wish you had more to say when you challanged one of the greatest thinkers in ~recent~ history.

Quote:
This logic is rather simple minded since it implies no-one should ever challenge the status quo. Following what you've said, I presume you want Chavez to stay in power for as long as possible?


Not every government (or system of government) is worth keeping, some (e.g. apartheid South Africa) need to be abolished or overthrown. Change shouldn't happen for change's sake but when governments stand in the way of human progress then they should be dispensed with.
A Lasting central government is a prerequisite for growth, not the cause of it.

Quote:
Besides, your military dictatorship lasted twenty years. Wasn't that enough?
Well, Saudi Arabia may be better than Iran (even that's arguable) but that's daming with faint praise. By most indictators, Saudi Arabia scores badly - even compared to some other countries in the same region. I'm still mystified how you can hold it up as an example of civilised behaviour.
Ok, I take it back. Saudi arabia sucks I still state that the Emirates are nice, though
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Unread 11 Feb 2007, 13:21   #48
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Re: Hey DDA where do you get your "gas" from?

heres a nice pic of my country.

The impression that it is not the same country its true. Many nations in one State
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