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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:16   #1
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The First Holocaust

The other day I was reading about the ill-remembered and oft-denied armenian genocide. This holocaust was responsible for the deaths of between 1.2 and 1.5 million Armenians from the period 1915-1917. Most famously this genocide is referred to in a quote attributed to Adolf Hitler "who after all speaks today of the armenians?" Tragically the turkish government largely still refuses to acknowledge the reality of the armenian genocide despite the masses of evidence available, instead choosing to pass them off as casualties of the first world war. Perhaps even more disgracefully both western governments and media outlets still put forward the facade that the truth, definitively acknowledged by the international association of genocide scholars as a genocide, is up for debate and the matter is unresolved. However all that aside while I was reading I came across this quite remarkable first-hand account of the armenian genocides from a woman named Astrid Aghanajanian who witnessed these events as a young girl. Prior to this her grandparents and her uncle had been shot by Turkish soldiers.

Quote:
What was left of the family all walked and walked. At a village one night, my father who had been deported with us came to see us. He told my mother that he thought he was being allowed to say good-bye, that he would be shot with the othr men. I remember my mother told me that my father's last words were: "The only way to remember me is to look after Astrid". We never saw him again. It was a long march and the Turks and Kurds came to carry off girls for rape. My mother would run from one end of the column to the other each time she saw them attacking us. My other grandmother died along the way. So did my newly-born brother Vartkes. We had to leave him by the roadside. One day, the Turks said they wanted to collect all the young children and look after them. Some women, who couldn't feed their children, let them go. Then my mother saw them piling the children on top of each other and setting them on fire. My mother pushed me under another pile of corpses. She buried herself with me under those bodies. Even today I cannot stand to be in darkness or to be on my own. My mother saved me from the fire. She used to tell me afterwards that she heard the screams of the children and saw the flames, it was as if their souls were going up to heaven.
I just thought I should share that with you all. I hope you gain something from reading it.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:19   #2
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Re: The First Holocaust

I think I knew, but didn't remember. Thanks for reminding.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:19   #3
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Re: The First Holocaust

turkey is denied membership until they admit it (that might seem a bit harsh. but it is true)
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:22   #4
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Re: The First Holocaust

My mother's name was Astrid.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:23   #5
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Re: The First Holocaust

As far as i was aware there was a general movement recently towards (political) awknowledgement in Turkey of the horrors of the Armenian genocide (or something).

On an aside i wound someone up via txt and shared the messages via email with another co-worker.

I was then asked by the person i wound up if i thought my actions (e-mailing the convo) were "sad" when the person i was winding up found out.

I responded "Yeah, sad like the holocaust".

Anyways i dont think that's Godwins cause i AUTOMATICALLY WIN ARGUMENTS WITH THAT STUPID BITCH!
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:25   #6
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
My mother's name was Astrid. :(


point caller?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:27   #7
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
point caller?
It's not a name I see often in the US.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:30   #8
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Re: The First Holocaust

Blonde girl in work is called Astrid.

She's from "Bishopbriggs".

I guess you need to be from this area to make a "proper decision" on the "facts" :(
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:31   #9
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
As far as i was aware there was a general movement recently towards (political) awknowledgement in Turkey of the horrors of the Armenian genocide (or something).
Yes, there is a movement. However the government still refuses to acknowledge it any way whatsoever.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:32   #10
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Re: The First Holocaust

BTW PIC LINK of "ur" maw SK plsta
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:33   #11
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yes, there is a movement. However the government still refuses to acknowledge it any way whatsoever.


*cough* Japan *cough*
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:42   #12
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
And, Jonny: have you been listening to System of a Down again?
I'll have you know I've never polluted my hearing with that filth in my life.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:45   #13
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Re: The First Holocaust

Pic link of Nan's maw too plsta!!!!!!!
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 05:24   #14
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Re: The First Holocaust

My state assemblyman is Armenian. His family escaped to Greece.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 05:25   #15
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
.


My gran's second cousin or something*




































*a very famous "Glasgow son"
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 05:35   #16
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
My mother's name is Astrid aswell.
For that I celebrate by providing you this link to an image of Tila Nguyen.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 10:57   #17
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'll have you know I've never polluted my hearing with that filth in my life.
They just throw some guy into prison for writing about it (or they banned the book, I dont remember ).

edit for anyone who cares:
The guy is called Orhan Pamuk and he has been accused of 'public belittlement of tirkey' or something like that.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 11:09   #18
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Re: The First Holocaust

If we're defining holocaust as "really bad genocide" (rather than something unique which ocurred in the 30's and 40's in Central Europe) then I wouldn't say this was the first holocaust.

But yeah another pretty horrific example of people being shitty to each other on an epic scale.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 11:16   #19
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Re: The First Holocaust

wow i actually had no idea about any american genocide

damn the scottish schools system.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 11:31   #20
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
wow i actually had no idea about any american genocide

damn the scottish schools system.
you mean about thowing lots of indians into reservations, let them die there and take there land? we are not talking about that right now.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 12:03   #21
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If we're defining holocaust as "really bad genocide" (rather than something unique which ocurred in the 30's and 40's in Central Europe) then I wouldn't say this was the first holocaust.

But yeah another pretty horrific example of people being shitty to each other on an epic scale.
Tthis was the first time an event of this kind was referred to as a holocaust (famously enough to gain recognition at least). By none other than Winston Churchill in fact.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 12:09   #22
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Tthis was the first time an event of this kind was referred to as a holocaust (famously enough to gain recognition at least). By none other than Winston Churchill in fact.
Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia (hardly reliable in these matters I realise) says :
Quote:
But since the mid-19th century, the word has been used by many authors to refer to large catastrophes and massacres, particularly those caused by immolation.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 12:12   #23
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia (hardly reliable in these matters I realise) says :
Nothing I can show you over the internet. I read it in a book concerning 20th century genocides whose name I'll get for you later if you want. As I said though yeah it was probably used before but this was the first time it was used and became widely known enough for the name to stick.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:46   #24
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Re: The First Holocaust

Well... I wonder what the world would be like if the holocausts didn't happen. Perhaps we would be over-populated?

[Soviets]There was no holocaust. Ever. You're all just capitalist dogs looking to degrade our motherland and superior society.

Good day.[/Soviets]

P.S. - Dah.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 18:06   #25
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Well... I wonder what the world would be like if the holocausts didn't happen. Perhaps we would be over-populated?

[Soviets]There was no holocaust. Ever. You're all just capitalist dogs looking to degrade our motherland and superior society.

Good day.[/Soviets]

P.S. - Dah.
Qazok, you're the scum of the Earth for trying to pull anything positive out of mass murder.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 18:49   #26
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
Blonde girl in work is called Astrid. She's from "Bishopbriggs".

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnybgood
Yes, there is a movement to acknowledge the atrocities of having to live in Bishopbriggs. However the government still refuses to acknowledge it any way whatsoever.
Just so you know Dace.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 19:36   #27
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Well... I wonder what the world would be like if the holocausts didn't happen. Perhaps we would be over-populated?

[Soviets]There was no holocaust. Ever. You're all just capitalist dogs looking to degrade our motherland and superior society.

Good day.[/Soviets]

P.S. - Dah.

I thought the first line was a joke but then you made it really obvious that the next bit was and thereby implied that the first bit wasn't and are you ****ing serious?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 20:01   #28
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Re: The First Holocaust

Just ban the wanker, he's not even funny or amusing as most imbecile posters can be.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 20:02   #29
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Re: The First Holocaust

yeah kura right
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 20:52   #30
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I thought the first line was a joke but then you made it really obvious that the next bit was and thereby implied that the first bit wasn't and are you ****ing serious?
Well think about it from a different perspective... if 2+ million people hadnt been killed (i confess I have no clue how many were killed) then they would ahve reproduced etc. etc.

Maybe this was a way for nature to de-populate.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 21:03   #31
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Well think about it from a different perspective... if 2+ million people hadnt been killed (i confess I have no clue how many were killed) then they would ahve reproduced etc. etc.

Maybe this was a way for nature to de-populate.
Paul? Skipped the border south did we?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 22:17   #32
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
wow i actually had no idea about any american genocide

damn the scottish schools system.
You need to listen to some System Of A Down.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 23:51   #33
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Paul? Skipped the border south did we?
Are you on drugs?

Here's the award for most off topic and unresponsive post ever made.

If you weren't a mod I would have them send you a warning PM and then a ban.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 23:56   #34
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Re: The First Holocaust

QazokRouge5 is on a path of intellectual self destruction... Indeed I think that he is too far down this path to return.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 23:57   #35
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Well think about it from a different perspective... if 2+ million people hadnt been killed (i confess I have no clue how many were killed) then they would ahve reproduced etc. etc.

Maybe this was a way for nature to de-populate.


6 million jews etc, but if you really want to make smart and witty comments, talk about the 41 million casualties in total, the 20 million died in russia because of stalin (not the war), the chinese mao killed, the victims of world war one


you my lad, are rather uninformed....
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 00:54   #36
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion
6 million jews etc, but if you really want to make smart and witty comments, talk about the 41 million casualties in total, the 20 million died in russia because of stalin (not the war), the chinese mao killed, the victims of world war one


you my lad, are rather uninformed....
You are rather uninformed about the correct numbers too, but hey.
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 01:21   #37
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Actualy about 10-12 million died in the death camps. including - but not limitied to - about 6 million jews. I find it somewhat strange that the massive amounts of romani, serbs, russians, slavs, communists, homosexuals and whatnot that were killed or worked to death so often are left out.
I don't know those figures by heart, so I only mentioned the jews, which was enough to make him look stupid.

And to Zhukov, the victims of Stalins regime range from little to few, exact numbers will probably never found, because of the thourough rewriting of history, which was a big hobby of a lot of Stalinists at the time. However, the quote 'One man's death is a tragedy, a million is just statistics' says enough about Stalin
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 01:27   #38
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion
I don't know those figures by heart, so I only mentioned the jews,
Indeed you did and that fact ought to have been clear to all.

goodness knows what the two norwegians thought you had typed.

I do hate people being lazy and misreading posts, whether they are my own or someone elses. Theamion your post was clear. They ought not to have typed anything.
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 01:30   #39
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Re: The First Holocaust

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Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Are you on drugs?

Here's the award for most off topic and unresponsive post ever made.

If you weren't a mod I would have them send you a warning PM and then a ban.
Just because you don't get it doesnt mean that it is off topic and unresponsive you piece of shit.

**** off.
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 04:02   #40
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Are you on drugs?

Here's the award for most off topic and unresponsive post ever made.

If you weren't a mod I would have them send you a warning PM and then a ban.
The rather insane fact that you seem to think that the world requires depopulating aside, it was a reference to trolling. Paul Adams, sunday8pm to you, used to be quite fond of it. I presumed you were trolling. Apologies for being presumptuous it turns out you're just nuts instead. Good day.
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 15:04   #41
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Actualy about 10-12 million died in the death camps. including - but not limitied to - about 6 million jews. I find it somewhat strange that the massive amounts of romani, serbs, russians, slavs, communists, homosexuals and whatnot that were killed or worked to death so often are left out.
This is turning into a massive aside, and I freely admit my contribution to that trend, but some facts need to be corrected here.

Firstly, common mistake so no harm/ no foul: Probably about 3-4 million people died in the death camps, the single largest death toll being betwen 1.8 and 2.5 million at auschwitz birkenau. There were only 6 death camps, while there were about 180 concentration camps located throughout Germany and occupied Europe, mostly Poland. When people refer to the holocaust, they tend to means deaths from murder/ work or privation from all sources, but the 6 death camps at best accounted for a third of all holocaust dead.

At various concentration camps, people were worked to death, and deaths increased s the end of the war drew closer, but they paled in comparaison to the 6 death camps whose primary purpose was not labour, but simple extrmination. Dachau, which is often, and erroniously referred to as a death camp, was in fact a concentration camp and only (can you say 'only' in a case like this?) about 31,000 people died there. The concentration camps add a million or more deaths to the totals of the 6 death camps.

The rest of the deaths were the result of a combination of elements, the main three being the Einsatzgruppen, mobile death vans and arbitrary killings by Whermacht and SS troops as a matter of course.

The Einsatzgruppen are of course the worst, mobile killing squads that came in after the troops and exterminated millions by shooting. At Babi-Yar alone outside Kiev 100,000 jews, Soviet POWs and Gypsies were killed. The Einsatzgruppen are responsible for between 2-3 million deaths themselves. Then we can add a million Soveit POWs deliberatly killd by starvation in 1941 anbd early 1942, before the German labour shortage forced them to be kept alive for slave labour, and then about another million arbitrary killings by SS and Wehrmacht troops in the course of the war, generally following the infamous 'Commisar order' and 'military justice decree' of 1941 which allowed atrocities to take place in the regular army without punishment.

Total victims of the Holocaust, about 10-11 million, of which 5.5-6 million were jews, and 2.5-3 million were Soviet POWs. The remainder, about 1.5 million, were political prisoners, enemies of the state (including communists) and anti-socials, mentally and physically handicapped (about 130,000 killed before the war by Euthenasia squads), and homosexuals and gypsies. It is worth adding that not that many homosexuals were killed, not because they were not avidly persecuted (they were) but because it is much easier to hide your sexuality. The Roma and Sinti Gypsies were also heavily targeted, but their small starting numbers mean probably about 200,000 slain at most.

Notably, Serbian and Bosnian dead are genarally not counted in the total, because they were not victims of the German holocaust, instead being victims of the equally evil if poorly organised croatian Ustasa.


Oh, and as an answer to the whole (hopefully joking) depopulation comment, its not that wrong. During WWII about 2.5% of humanity was killed, including deaths from all sources.
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 15:14   #42
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Re: The First Holocaust

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Just because you don't get it doesnt mean that it is off topic and unresponsive you piece of shit.

**** off.
ooh, i was in a bad mood last night wasnt i?

sorry qazok
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 21:01   #43
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Re: The First Holocaust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
ooh, i was in a bad mood last night wasnt i?

sorry qazok
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 21:11   #44
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Re: The First Holocaust

To add to Vermillion:
The deathrate of Soviet POW's were over 50%. Roughly the same with Serbian POW's (who often were used/threathed in the same way as the Soviet POW's).

Another reason for the large number of deaths in the Sovietunion, is that the german army took the food from the population, leaving the population in german controlled areas to starve to death, specially in the cities.
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 21:56   #45
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Re: The First Holocaust

You'd turn them all into lesbians dude
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 22:08   #46
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Re: The First Holocaust

It's nice to know that GD completely misunderstood and missed my point. It makes me ponder about your comprehension abilities.

Moving along....

My point was not that I thought the world should be depopulated.

I was attempting to stimulate thoughts and ideas as to what the world would be like today had those 20+ million people not been killed in that 30 year period of our time.

Would there be over-population?

Would there be no war in Iraq?

Would the Jews that died have gone to Israel?

Would the Germans have been so brutally punished for war crimes?

etc.

Use your brains for once people. Stop trying to turn every one of my posts into 'trolling' or some comparison to your mothers underpants.
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Unread 17 Nov 2005, 23:22   #47
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Re: The First Holocaust

What if jesus wasn't born? Maybe the roman empire would never have fallen and we'd now be entering into some sort of glorious golden age in the commonwealth of galaxies.





PS The phrasing of your question implied that overpopulation=bad thing, holocaust=less overpopulation, therefore holocaust=good thing! And it did. That's how language works. Next time use a disclaimer.
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