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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 13:35   #1
Sun_Tzu
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Possibly of interest...

[15:25:57] <Sun_Tzu> http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...43651221729476 <---when you have some time, have a look at that and tell me what you think
[15:27:17] <JBG> i think lch is doing it wrong heh
[15:28:41] <Sun_Tzu> I confirmed it with appoco, that's correct
[15:28:55] <Sun_Tzu> and according to him, working as intended
[15:29:06] <JBG> that's hilarious
[15:29:11] <Sun_Tzu> yes
[15:29:15] <Sun_Tzu> I called him a moron
[15:29:31] <Sun_Tzu> and he started babbling about bubblegum philosophy bullshit
[15:29:58] <Sun_Tzu> [12:23:43] <Appocomaster> no
[15:29:58] <Sun_Tzu> [12:23:46] <Appocomaster> that's right
[15:29:58] <Sun_Tzu> [12:23:51] <Appocomaster> the marauder all get stolen
[15:29:58] <Sun_Tzu> [12:23:57] <Appocomaster> so none of them can 'die' in compensation
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:25:14] <Sun_Tzu> you're allowing the defending ships to die twice
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:25:21] <Appocomaster> its probably the best way to implement steal
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:25:24] <Appocomaster> when ships die
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:25:30] <Sun_Tzu> it's not :/
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:25:44] <Appocomaster> no?
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:26:03] <Appocomaster> it gives steal an advantage if used wisely
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:26:07] <Sun_Tzu> because those ships can't both be stolen and converted into new stolen ships at the same time
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:26:17] <Appocomaster> pfft
[15:30:20] <Sun_Tzu> [12:26:20] <Sun_Tzu> you're effectively doubling the defenders marauders by doing it this way
[15:30:41] <Sun_Tzu> [12:26:31] <Appocomaster> no, or they'd have stolen more
[15:30:41] <Sun_Tzu> [12:27:13] <Sun_Tzu> they *ARE* stealing more, in reality they shouldn't be able to steal anything as they are also getting stolen, there's nothing left to die, or get stolen
[15:30:41] <Sun_Tzu> [12:27:24] <Sun_Tzu> they are dying twice, i.e. they are acting as twice the ships
[15:30:41] <Sun_Tzu> [12:27:42] <Appocomaster> but the marauders fire at the same time
[15:30:41] <Sun_Tzu> [12:27:48] <Sun_Tzu> that being the problem
[15:31:01] <Sun_Tzu> [12:28:22] <Sun_Tzu> why can't I steal back the stolen ships aswell then?
[15:31:19] <Sun_Tzu> [12:28:54] <Appocomaster> because they're in the process of being stolen
[15:31:19] <Sun_Tzu> [12:29:24] <Sun_Tzu> you do see how this is slightly retarded? when in real life does having MORE firepower means you take more losses?
[15:31:44] <Sun_Tzu> [12:30:47] <Appocomaster> there's also a paradox
[15:31:44] <Sun_Tzu> [12:31:19] <Appocomaster> but it's hard to explain
[15:31:44] <Sun_Tzu> [12:31:30] <Appocomaster> being more powerful doesn't always mean you're going to win in a fight
[15:31:44] <Sun_Tzu> [12:31:37] <Appocomaster> but we're going to get into philosophy
[15:32:27] <Sun_Tzu> his name-dropping philosphy-bit is so retarded I cba to even paste it
[15:32:45] <JBG> heh
[15:32:50] <JBG> awesome
[15:33:19] <Sun_Tzu> see this kind of explains why it's so hard attacking as a big zik atm :/
[15:33:36] <Sun_Tzu> I had to recall my 100k bs because someone sent a 1/4th of that to defend against me :/
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 13:43   #2
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Possibly of interest...

That does seem pretty weird.

In my opinion the only acceptable outcome in a 10k mara defending against 20k mara scenario is this:

The defending 10k mara steal 10k mara at a cost of 10k mara (no change) BUT 10k mara get stolen (see below) -> end result: 0 mara left.
The attacking 20k mara steal 10k mara at a cost of 10k mara (no change) BUT 10k mara get stolen (see above) -> end result: 10k mara left

An approximation, obviously.



P.S. I hate to point out your inadequacies once more, but.. only 100k bs?
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 14:07   #3
Sun_Tzu
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
P.S. I hate to point out your inadequacies once more, but.. only 100k bs?
Check fleetvalue...

Ship Class T1 T2 T3 Type Count
Marauder Battleship Battleship Cruiser - Steal 70000
Pirate Battleship Frigate - - Steal 25000
Raider Battleship Asteroids - - Pod 2000
Paladin Battleship Frigate - - Emp 1229
Stalwart Battleship Battleship Cruiser - Emp 2426
Broker Battleship Asteroids - - Pod 32

That's 1.2mil value in bs :/

I don't think you'll find many ziks with 70k maras out there...
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 14:25   #4
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Re: Possibly of interest...

I'd agree with mz with one addition, defenders get either 15 or 30% salvage for the maras.
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 14:34   #5
Sun_Tzu
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'd agree with mz with one addition, defenders get either 15 or 30% salvage for the maras.
Which in his example would be 60% salvage(twice 10k maras, thus 30% + 30%) + salvage from attacker losses.
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 14:44   #6
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Re: Possibly of interest...

ps. You two are supposed to be the prime watchdogs on these things(in my absence), why hadn't you picked up on this earlier? If we're going to start poking at each other, I'd probably start by pointing out I've only played a fraction as much PaX as you have and yet I'm the one who figured this out :/
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 15:11   #7
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'd agree with mz with one addition, defenders get either 15 or 30% salvage for the maras.
I'm not entirely sure how salvage is calculated for stealing/stolen ships, but I think the defenders should already get salvage for the 10k maras they lose while stealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
ps. You two are supposed to be the prime watchdogs on these things(in my absence), why hadn't you picked up on this earlier? If we're going to start poking at each other, I'd probably start by pointing out I've only played a fraction as much PaX as you have and yet I'm the one who figured this out :/
I've never played Zik.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 15:18   #8
Sun_Tzu
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm not entirely sure how salvage is calculated for stealing/stolen ships, but I think the defenders should already get salvage for the 10k maras they lose while stealing.


I've never played Zik.
a) They do, my point being the defender loses first 10k maras and then another 10k(stolen) maras in your example, for a total of 20k maras of which 30% = 6k maras which is 60% of the original amount.

b) Poor excuse. Does that also mean you've never calced a battle with zik-ships on both sides?
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 16:16   #9
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
a) They do, my point being the defender loses first 10k maras and then another 10k(stolen) maras in your example, for a total of 20k maras of which 30% = 6k maras which is 60% of the original amount.
I know. I was just saying that solving the original problem also solves the salvage problem. The two are not seperate issues, like JBG made it seem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
b) Poor excuse. Does that also mean you've never calced a battle with zik-ships on both sides?
Either that or the bug was introduced during the combat engine changes this round!
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 17:06   #10
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Either that or the bug was introduced during the combat engine changes this round!
See! You've been paying attention and you still didn't notice it :/ I hadn't even bothered to find out they changed the combat engine!
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 17:09   #11
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Re: Possibly of interest...

err, hasn't this one been around for ages? i vaguely remember when Monroe did the stats rounds ago their being a similar sort of discussion on zik ships stealing each other at the same init and giving funny results, which caused stats to get changed (iirc) Admittedly that could have been a different bug entirely though.
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 17:17   #12
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Appocos reaction would indeed suggest that he knew about this from before. However, the fact that it has not been dealt with to me is simply...
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Unread 19 Sep 2008, 10:52   #13
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Appocos reaction would indeed suggest that he knew about this from before. However, the fact that it has not been dealt with to me is simply...
It would require the combat engine for stealing to be re-written for steal vs steal, that's probably why.

All it requires really is that Zik ships don't target their own class as T1.
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Unread 19 Sep 2008, 11:08   #14
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^ View Post
as T1
At all. It's a limitation I'm not particularly happy with.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 19 Sep 2008, 22:55   #15
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath View Post
err, hasn't this one been around for ages? i vaguely remember when Monroe did the stats rounds ago their being a similar sort of discussion on zik ships stealing each other at the same init and giving funny results, which caused stats to get changed (iirc) Admittedly that could have been a different bug entirely though.
This is similar to the bug that came up when I did the stats, but not exactly. But it is definitely in the same vein, which is that there really is no good way for steal ships to steal each other at the same time.
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Unread 20 Sep 2008, 13:49   #16
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Re: Possibly of interest...

does anybody have a b-rep of something like this happening?
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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 16:17   #17
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Re: Possibly of interest...

um the attacker should end up with +2k maras anything else is just crap prolly appoco walking in legoland again as usual
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 07:21   #18
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Possibly of interest...

2k? Did you just pick a random number?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 13:53   #19
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Re: Possibly of interest...

well 28k maras steal 26k maras and the attacker steals all of the defs maras =28k so it should be +2k

dont drink and drive mz
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 14:51   #20
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Ok. I see. And I disagree. It's stupid.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 15:18   #21
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Re: Possibly of interest...

how come?

http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...70361222180401

why is it any diffrent from killstuff?
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 15:36   #22
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Re: Possibly of interest...

You realise that these changes (e.g. suggested by mz) will remove any last advantage from Zik and further overburden steal ?
Ironically, most of those posting are Ziks I think
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 15:37   #23
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1 View Post
why is it any diffrent from killstuff?
Because steal ships die when they attack, and kill ships don't.

Surely you can see the difference between your and Tzu's scenario?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
You realise that these changes (e.g. suggested by mz) will remove any last advantage from Zik and further overburden steal ?
Er.. what? Zik can still steal if you implement my suggestion. They just can't die and still steal afterwards.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 15:47   #24
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Re: Possibly of interest...

why should it be a diffrents if you kill emp or steal shit? you loose some and gain some
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 15:54   #25
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1 View Post
why should it be a diffrents if you kill emp or steal shit?
It shouldn't. That's what my suggestion is meant to ensure.

Your suggestion on the other hand makes absolutely no sense. The only way one side could gain 2k mara is if both sides steal without losing ships in the progress. This does not happen under any other circumstances, so why should this scenario be any different? It is also worth noting that this causes problems with salvage.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 16:05   #26
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Er.. what? Zik can still steal if you implement my suggestion. They just can't die and still steal afterwards.
I think I looked at this approach early on and couldn't actually get my head around it.

Whilst the current situation is less "logical", it's actually a lot easier to cope with.

It can be summarised as follows: your ships all steal as much as they can, then they die up to the value that they stole (if there's any ships left).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mz
Re: Possibly of interest...
That does seem pretty weird.

In my opinion the only acceptable outcome in a 10k mara defending against 20k mara scenario is this:

The defending 10k mara steal 10k mara at a cost of 10k mara (no change) BUT 10k mara get stolen (see below) -> end result: 0 mara left.
The attacking 20k mara steal 10k mara at a cost of 10k mara (no change) BUT 10k mara get stolen (see above) -> end result: 10k mara left

An approximation, obviously.
Did you mean that basically both sides lose 10k marauders?

That's pretty nasty (with my alternative always leaves more ships, though usually on the smaller side).

Your approach seems to work as follows:
steal ships fire
calculate ships stolen
calculate how many steal ships die from how many stole
adjust stolen ships to make sure that the steal ships who stole can kill sufficient numbers of themselves to equate to the value that was stolen.

This leads on to other scenarios:
what happens when you have a higher steal efficiency than armour efficiency?

Do we have to reduce the amount that were stolen so that it equals that of the stealing ships?

Whilst my approach may not translate to real life that easily (yes, I've had enough analogies, including yours about punching me in the face and knocking my teeth out robban), it's more simple to understand and doesn't involve several rerolls of combat to readjust / reduce all the stealing that's going on until it's reached 'sensible' limits.
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 16:17   #27
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Did you mean that basically both sides lose 10k marauders?
Yes. This is what would happen when both sides contain the same kill ship, so why shouldn't the same happen when both sides contain the same steal ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Your approach seems to work as follows:
steal ships fire
calculate ships stolen
calculate how many steal ships die from how many stole
adjust stolen ships to make sure that the steal ships who stole can kill sufficient numbers of themselves to equate to the value that was stolen.
1 Steal ships fire
2 Subtract ships killed by enemy fire
3 Add ships stolen
4 Subtract ships lost during stealing



Example:
Defence has 10k mara, attack has 20k mara, mara fires at 110% eff.

1 Steal ships fire
10k defending mara -> kills 11k attacking mara
20k attacking mara -> kills 10k defending mara (This is where the efficiency issue comes into play)

2 Subtract ships killed by enemy fire
Defence has 0k mara, attack has 9k mara.

3 Add ships stolen
Defence has 11k mara, attack has 19k mara

4 Subtract ships lost during stealing
Defence has 1k mara, attack has 9k mara


Unless I missed something, this same scenario can be used outside of same-init steal battles (and indeed needs to be, because many battles contain both same-init and different-init stealing)
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 23 Sep 2008 at 16:28.
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 16:19   #28
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Re: Possibly of interest...

well as in the etd br they loose (kill) ships on both sides but the diff with maras loosing ships while stealing new ones just a simple swapping ships that the attacker gain on it as he sent a bigger fleet that gives a 2k maras+ for him.

the salvage should be calced on the 2k net loss for the def
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 11:36   #29
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Re: Possibly of interest...

mz surely the process can be stopped at step 3? I must admit i cant fully get my head round it, but i dont actually see the point of step 4.
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 13:13   #30
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Maybe this helps:

You can split the steps in 2 groups: 1+2 and 3+4.

In 1 and 2, killing enemy ships and losing ships to enemy fire is calculated. During these steps, both sides lose about 10k ships to enemy fire.
In 3 and 4, abandoning ship to board enemy ships is calculated. During these steps, both sides gain about 10k ships at the cost of 10k ships.

If you leave out step 4, you're basically getting twice as much as you should get. Both sides kill 10k ships of the other and both sides gain ~10k ships at the cost of 10k ships. It makes perfect sense.

Further, it wouldn't work in other scenarios than the same init steal one, resulting in inconsistent behaviour. You'd have to code steal combat twice. Once for same init, once for different init stealing.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 13:27   #31
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Actually, thinking about it, my suggestion might not be as good as I originally thought it was.

The problem is this: the ships that I've stolen at init X during tick Y are immune to enemy fire at init X+1 (and up) during tick Y.

Let's use a real world example:

10k Wyvern and 100k Buccaneer vs 20k Pirate

Click "Detail Log" to see what I mean. The Pirate steal 10k Wyvern at init 20, but the 100k Buccaneer do not steal back those 10k Wyvern. They just steal Pirates. This is because the Wyvern are stored elsewhere while the battle takes place, and only added to the fleet that steals them once combat is over.


Now lets look back to the example I gave earlier, using the method I gave earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Defence has 10k mara, attack has 20k mara, mara fires at 110% eff.

1 Steal ships fire
10k defending mara -> kills 11k attacking mara
20k attacking mara -> kills 10k defending mara (This is where the efficiency issue comes into play)

2 Subtract ships killed by enemy fire
Defence has 0k mara, attack has 9k mara.

3 Add ships stolen
Defence has 11k mara, attack has 19k mara

4 Subtract ships lost during stealing
Defence has 1k mara, attack has 9k mara
Count how many ships each side loses in total.

Attack: 11k killed by enemy fire, 10k lost during stealing, makes 21k ships lost in total.
Defence: 10k killed by enemy fire, 10k lost during stealing, makes 20k lost in total.

But they don't have that many ships to lose in the first place.

This is a problem.

The only way of solving this problem (as well as the one Sun_Tzu found) that I can think of is by disallowing same init stealing altogether. I don't like this solution.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 22 Oct 2008, 02:46   #32
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Let's use a real world example:

10k Wyvern and 100k Buccaneer vs 20k Pirate
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Unread 5 Nov 2008, 00:10   #33
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Another steal bug!

http://game.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=208
http://game.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=209

Fun for all the family.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 5 Nov 2008, 06:29   #34
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Re: Possibly of interest...

what happened to the thief mz?
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Unread 5 Nov 2008, 09:53   #35
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Re: Possibly of interest...

As far as I know, they died while "stealing".
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 5 Nov 2008, 15:00   #36
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Re: Possibly of interest...

Fixed (I thought that the patch I made on Monday fixed it, but I just patched the patch and it all now works fine )
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