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Unread 9 Dec 2007, 22:06   #1
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Round 25: stats

No, this isn't a set of beta stats for next round. Though looking at the time scale, stats probably need to be semi-finalised in the next couple of weeks.

I'd appreciate comments on this round's stats and how T1/T2/T3 have affected the game and changed the "balancing points" for stats.

e.g. Xan and Zik seem to be doing well, with Etd and Cath less well. Is that more a feature of stats, or of the opinion of the top players under-rating them, or both?

Some / all of this feedback may well be used for next round's stats
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Unread 9 Dec 2007, 23:46   #2
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Re: Round 25: stats

- Drop etd/cath
- Spread cath ships out between Zik/Terran/Xan
- Multiple targetting rocks.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 00:06   #3
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Re: Round 25: stats

I would not drop cath / etd per se. Just reduce the amount of different ships. There is no need for each race to have it's unique fleet.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 01:54   #4
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Re: Round 25: stats

-Drop Veil05
-Spread his molecules between the 3rd world countries to help them out
-Multiple targetting rocks.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 02:28   #5
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Re: Round 25: stats

I'm with Veil and Heartless. Both ideas work.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 03:44   #6
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Re: Round 25: stats

Multiclass targeting has brought some interesting dimensions back into the game. Early in the round xan was way over powered, but as the round has evolved the other races have caught up, and now zik is probably the toughest nut to crack. Xans have continued to do well however, and are probably a bit overpowered, mostly because by building just attack ships and spectres (which are pretty nasty) they can cover every attack option. More thought needs to go into secondary targeting in this regard to help balance things out a bit. Multicast targeting should have helped cath and etd out quite a bunch, but this has only seemed to be partially true. I think that if cath had been given a second kill ship and emp rates had been bumped up just slightly they would have been a very formidable race this round. I'm not sure what really went wrong with etd, could be because of how terrible they were last round as they do have some pretty nasty fleet combos. I have been surprised at how well terrans have held up this round, but overall they have done pretty decent, if they had been allowed to punch through on xans this round I think they would have done much better.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that teamups have become a complete must to attack the larger players. In the past even the largest player could still usually be hit solo by certain races, with multiclass targeting this is simply impossible. It has also been extremely hard to attack anyone with a larger value then yourself. Because of this I feel it would be very beneficial to either increase the value of XP for hitting players bigger then yourself, or further decrease damage to make it easier to punch through on the bigger players.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 11:53   #7
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Re: Round 25: stats

I dont mind having to team up on my targets, I think it adds a nice change. The only thing that I have noticed is that attacking has become one of those things where you calculate it so that any target is possible as long as he loses more than you do, now, while I myself dont mind it, I know quite a few people who find it unacceptable, this is a big reason why cath are so badly bashed this round.
I think that any multi targetting round will have this problem because the other races will be harder to hit, and thus making the caths a bigger target than normal because of 0 loss coupled with the increased difficulty of hitting anything else.
If things stay like this, we will not have to phase out cath because they will phase themselves out while more and more people try them and realize they are nearly impossible to successfully play them in a universe like this.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 12:16   #8
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Re: Round 25: stats

What about a high init, low damage Cath kill ship with T3 = All ? (30% damage) [c.f. Avenger pre R10]
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 12:53   #9
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Re: Round 25: stats

I get the feeling they would be overwhelmed quickly depending on their class and armor, but I think it should be tried in a beta at least.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 15:04   #10
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Re: Round 25: stats

The consequences of an all targeting ship appearing again is a bit concerning.

Maybe remove any Cathaar kill ships but turn the T3 from every ship into a kill target? The guns and damage can be different on the same ship, so even though all Cathaar ships could be great at stunning they could be very weak at killing.

The T3 on a ship could be safe from damage from the relevant attack fleet, like FI/CO of this round could T3 kill BS/CR without losing ships. If nearly all T3 was zero-loss but quite weak it would stop Cathaar from being a class which is attacked without any ship loss for the attackers, which is something that the class suffers from badly.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 16:04   #11
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Re: Round 25: stats

All targeting has been shown time and time again to be too powerful to allow in the game. Imagine if a zik could steal a bunch of them, the zik would be pretty much unhittable. Rather then all targeting I would say simply give cath 1 or 2 more kill ships and make sure with those kill ships it can hit every class. With a high initiative it would give caths a much better balance.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 16:27   #12
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Re: Round 25: stats

T3 * is a bad idea. Don't do it.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 18:20   #13
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Re: Round 25: stats

The idea of cath killing on T3 is quite interesting, the fact caths get no salvage at all from emp is bitterly annoying
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 18:47   #14
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Re: Round 25: stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
T3 * is a bad idea. Don't do it.
Completely agree.


On the point of having cath being able to have emp/kill ability I also find that rather interesting.

Can't comment any further though as I didn't play this round
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 20:19   #15
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Re: Round 25: stats

I thought the stats worked out a bit better than feared this round, although imo
ziks and xans were a bit overpowered.
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Unread 10 Dec 2007, 20:27   #16
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Re: Round 25: stats

I think this conversation is quickly being steered towards cathaar EMP "Critical Failure", which I still oppose, but it might have to be done from what I can see.
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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 00:58   #17
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Re: Round 25: stats

- I think exploring the possibility tohave T3 kill for cath is nice but certainly not target all.
- The trademark of ETD could be to have T1, T2 and possibly T3 on a ship to combine Emp, Kill or Steal rather than having each ship specialized in one style.
- ETD should be made the default race choice
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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 01:12   #18
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Re: Round 25: stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
- ETD should be made the default race choice
Id be cautious with this, while it would add to the people playing ETD, it might not do it enough, and if the stats were to stay around where they are currently, these people will get bashed to dust.
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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 08:29   #19
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Re: Round 25: stats

I have to say that having a ship doing different damage types will not happen for next round, and seems unlikely in future rounds. It's a bit non-sensical and will be hard to explain (and really fun to code too, tbh).
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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 14:53   #20
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Re: Round 25: stats

you need to avoid a poding a fleet sent to a non defending gal that land because ou didnt start the good type of ship .

that is kinda of a fact , a other game does the 3 targeting .

bring bak cluster minus attack so theyr is a war in cluster and leave allaince out of it , will make the big war more splited whit ......... ct urwins ja bm cs xan ooken

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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 15:16   #21
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Re: Round 25: stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbud2
that is kinda of a fact , a other game does the 3 targeting .
Planetarion did multiple class targetting Rounds 1-9.5. Those games are spin-offs of it from that date.
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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 15:32   #22
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Re: Round 25: stats

mean more like a radom targeting i think it was round 2 , personaly i found it lovely since i couldnt get galaxy defence .

exemple. eta 3 from target wake up to see he retal and he is eta 4 o time to recal , and started ship that target other clas only .

way i mean it is only that you still can defend whit 1 class ship ,but you cannot be hit by a % of pod that land for free only because you build wrong ship . something like a 20-30% target all . or even a 10% .

ex. 10M bs will kill a 1m poding fleet , still allow a near free roiding , but will prevent cheap roiding . or a player sending a few number of ship to get salvage over you .

since these ship can actualy stillfire but only not target , they still should have some manual ireing or what so ever.

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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 22:05   #23
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Re: Round 25: stats

Will Etd be made into the Subversion race?
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Unread 11 Dec 2007, 22:08   #24
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Re: Round 25: stats

Not for next round. Subversion has as many inherent flaws as steal (in some ways)
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 00:01   #25
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Re: Round 25: stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
What about a high init, low damage Cath kill ship with T3 = All ? (30% damage) [c.f. Avenger pre R10]
Dont. T3= all is generally a bad idea, but coupling this with good initiative is an extremely bad idea.


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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 01:12   #26
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Re: Round 25: stats

You could replace SKs that almost nobody use by Cargo ships.
Make sure that each race can use them in a roiding fleet without eta penalty. This round the zik can't use their SK without suffering a +1 eta making it even more useless (the other races don't have the problem)
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 02:57   #27
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Re: Round 25: stats

T3=all is nice if you wanted to add cathar a t3 kill , would be a frigate that steal . still ice to keep it real . eve if a sar ship war isnt to soon


random T3=All at 10% and cathar steal wold be awsome if alll fleet emp , whit a normal salvage rate
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 13:26   #28
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Re: Round 25: stats

Everything that Ultimate Newbie has said is absolutely right. No T3=All, because it never ends well.
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 14:32   #29
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Re: Round 25: stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Everything that Ultimate Newbie has said is absolutely right. No T3=All, because it never ends well.

so i guess theyr will be no -1 in cluster
eta 8 cathar fleet is bak ?
can they have a de killer ?
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 15:10   #30
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Re: Round 25: stats

I think cathaar need at least one more kill ship, preferably two. Perhaps having it like Zik, One EMP & One KILL type per attack fleet...

I played Terran this round and I've definately enjoyed it. Once you realise you can hit XAN players with a Syren/Wyvern combo roids become easy to get hold off. Plus with soo many XAN players doing well I've found no problem finding targets in Alliance raids.

I honest think XAN, ZIK & TER are quite balanced. XAN have advantage early in game, ZIK are solid throughout, and TER have advantage late in game...in my opinion anyways.

ETD however gets worse and worse each round. It needs a rethink or dropping all together in my opinion
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 17:52   #31
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Re: Round 25: stats

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Originally Posted by Makhil
You could replace SKs that almost nobody use by Cargo ships.
Make sure that each race can use them in a roiding fleet without eta penalty. This round the zik can't use their SK without suffering a +1 eta making it even more useless (the other races don't have the problem)
I like this idea.

Cargo ships ftw!
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 20:40   #32
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Re: Round 25: stats

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I like this idea.

Cargo ships ftw!
Can we have new ideas instead of recycling old ideas back into the game?
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 20:50   #33
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Re: Round 25: stats

First of all my complements to Appocomaster for starting new stats and making them only a little bit unbalanced. I feared it would be much worse. It generally is when new stats are created.

Terran
I don’t think Terran are extremely weak, just not as good as Xan and Zik. If those are changed then Terrans don’t need lots of changing.
I would change the Harpy. It is just too weak. No experienced player will build them even if his alliance tells him to. Only noobs build them, so give the noobs a break. For instance upgrade the armor with a few points to bring it in line with the other Terran ships.
Also I would increase the damage of Terran pods. They have the worst pods. Terrans fall behind at the start. Pods are a significant part of the fleet at the start, but that share decreases as you build bigger fleets, so I would make my improvement here.

Cathaar
Cathaar - as everybody knows - have too many enemies. Make the Scorpion a kill ship and you cover the fi and co class (+ Cathaar Fr). That would significantly improve playability for a Cathaar.
I think another weakness is that cathaar need their T2 for roiding, which now is only 60% effective. For other races this is less important but cathaar realy need to stun everything. Other races just need to kill enough with their T1 to make the other guy decide to run. Xan is historically a Cathaar’s main target, but emping Xan fi and Spectres with your T2 is just too much to ask. This makes Cathaar easy prey and easier to cover. To compensate Cathaar would need slightly more emp capability in their attack ships, which for unknown reason are now among their least efficient ships.

Xan+Zik
Xandathrii are very strong offensively. I would just tweak some of their best ships a bit.
Same for the Zikonian race although their strength is not in their attack fleets, it's the simple fact that you need to deal with so many classes, because zik can have all sorts of ships. This makes it very hard to hit ziks, especially with a weakened T2 and T3. As a Cathaar you cannot emp a zik that stole Terran ships, especially not if it is in different classes. So tweak them a bit and hope it's enough.

Eitraides
Etd are unpopular, but because of their impopularity it is hard to get a good idea on how weak they realy are. I have a feeling they are not that weak at all. They mainly need to get a more colourfull fleet. To make the Eitraides more colorfull I propose changing the normal ships to being more Terran-like, the emp-ships to being more Cathaar-like etc.
The first and main change would be to make the Voyager a real cloaked Xan ship. Its good initiative is its main characteristic, so it would make sense to turn it into a Xan ship. This will give the Etd a lot more options for faking and thus make it a more interesting race. Make it cloaked, give it a bit more fire power at the expense of armor and emp resistance.
Similar to real Terran ships, the Investor should get more armor and emp resistance in exchange for some damage. The Broker also deserves a bit more armor and emp resistance.
I would boost the emp efficiency of the Vendor by making it a bit cheaper at the expense of armor and emp resistance.

Last edited by Gerbie2; 12 Dec 2007 at 21:01.
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 21:18   #34
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Re: Round 25: stats

Sounds sensible to me.
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Unread 12 Dec 2007, 21:33   #35
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Re: Round 25: stats

terran look good whit the de ad bs , heavy ship cause alot of damage ,
cathar since are peacefull , add a nice combination of ship whit the beetle viper ad early ship , same as xan fighter .

agree whit the etd , maybe adding a 1.3 adavantage to a BS would help etd to gain a strong cr bs fleet . making it nice for zik to steal , so if well manage would have a nice fleet .
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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 07:19   #36
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Re: Round 25: stats

Round winners and number of planets in t100 (numbers might be not 100% correct):

r11 xan
r12 cat - 22 cat, 36 zik, can cat get more balanced than this?
r13 zik - 6 cat, 40 zik, obviously they thought cat was overpowered!
r14 cat - 25 cat, mostly big 1up/nd planets
r15 cat - 19 cat, biggest eX cat rank 71 after a rough round for eX
r16 ter - 13 cat, 40 ter, 1st value cat rank 26, xp round
r17 cat - 18 cat, 46 zik, zik domination
r18 cat - 16 cat, 60 zik, wait.. lets make zik able to farm fi/co
r19 ter - 13 cat, 30 ter
r20 etd - 19 cat, 32 etd, new race dominates, another xp win
r21 etd - 11 cat, 41 etd, no, they are not overpowered!
r22 etd - 14 cat, 15 etd, etd became the new cat, win or lose!
r23 cat - 26 cat, 32 xan, 1 etd, omg overpowered cat, oh wait.. it was only eX planets anyway

While cat has nearly always been the least dominant race in top 100, there are still 6 cat winners in past 13 rounds. Like I've been saying forever: Cathaar is the win or lose race. Round win has slipped to some other race only when it has been seriously dominated by that race (due to shorter rounds not always even in that case). What makes you think you can make cat more balanced now if you were not able to do it in 13 rounds? Its flawed by nature. Drop it.

Last edited by Hude; 13 Dec 2007 at 07:24.
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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 11:01   #37
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Re: Round 25: stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
Drop it.
The race or the discussion?
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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 11:36   #38
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Re: Round 25: stats

first the race and then there's no need for the discussion
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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 12:16   #39
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Re: Round 25: stats

Alright, then we are in agreement. Want a manhug?
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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 13:12   #40
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Re: Round 25: stats

fine than give the etd a b that will have a advandtage against fi , and a nice corvet , make carthar get a fi anti co that fire before beetle .

that would make a eta 8 and eta 10 fleet .
i presum that afer what hapenning we will see zik coming out to strong . basicly only terran etd should have strong ship , i even sugest the fasted cons. time so they cannot be match whit distorper .

make more sense .

they move it slowly , fact is round 3 was nearly perfect ,after the fact that you coldnt eally hit any player.

balif used to piss me off , you like to do it , so......

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When i was young i could watch the s tart and wait for a BS that could take xan away , a cr that would need emp cathar faster than they shoot , cathar whit a de killer

increase etd strhengh , cathar are good 8, xan are fine banshee phantom pod, zik will survive whit blood sucker .

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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 13:30   #41
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Re: Round 25: stats

since a unfrozen ship that got a higher init will fired .....
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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 17:39   #42
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Re: Round 25: stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
Can we have new ideas instead of recycling old ideas back into the game?
Like multiple targetting?
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Unread 13 Dec 2007, 18:52   #43
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Re: Round 25: stats

fair play
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Unread 14 Dec 2007, 00:17   #44
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Re: Round 25: stats

listen to mz, heartless, veil05 and a few other suggestions about reducing the total amount of ships.

also I like the idea of t3 cath killing.

and please, give one more level of constructions (yes, I know. not stats related, but still). for the suggestion; read mz's post in suggestions.
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Unread 14 Dec 2007, 00:46   #45
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Re: Round 25: stats

Most of the posts in this thread have very little to do with what appoco was looking for in this thread. Do any of you actually have any constructive comments on the balance between races and how multiclass targeting has changed game play? Keep your personal soap boxes for your own threads.
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Unread 14 Dec 2007, 08:02   #46
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Re: Round 25: stats

The wraith is the most useless ships ever(well maybe not but its shit) so fix that into something, or just flat out drop it.
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Unread 14 Dec 2007, 10:21   #47
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Re: Round 25: stats

5 races, 2 attack fleets each, 3 travel times, 6 classes of ship.

That makes 10 attack fleets fleets in total.
This does not make balancing easy.
Logically, it doesn't make sense.

4 solutions:

if you reduced the number of classes to 5 it would work easier (2 AFs per class)

if you increased the number of races to 6 it'd work easier (2 AFs per class)

if you forced every race to have one AF the same (e.g. FR) and spread the other 5 classes between the races - it'd work easier (all races have FR, each race has their specific AF per class, easier to balance)

if you reduced the number of races to 4 and gave each race 3 AF's it'd be easier (12 AF's spread over 6 classes = 2 per class)


combat solutions.

having low armour low cost ships makes for epic battles. but losses are high again now that you've reintroduced multi-targeting. I'd suggest we go back to the double digit APC DPC ratings as opposed to the (x10) ratings we've had for the last couple of rounds. (i.e. losing 200 battleships means more than a shrug)

emp critical failure is a must, or EMP cannot stay as a seperate class (and cath should be dropped or somehting)



my 2 cents
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Unread 14 Dec 2007, 10:35   #48
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Re: Round 25: stats

tuxedo makes sense, tho I still don't see adding *more* races as a solution
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Unread 14 Dec 2007, 13:17   #49
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Re: Round 25: stats

I've proposed a 6th race, and I've backed the plans to get rid of Cath or/and Etd to go to 3/4 races. Staying at 5 races isn't working.
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Unread 14 Dec 2007, 14:07   #50
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Re: Round 25: stats

your balance isnt good enough for the ship size and the speed of the smalle eta -2 , you need o make something worth the trouble , and knowing that a quick fleet , can be replace , or using bs cr as pds .

i hope that was clear enough , i xplain
beetle 1,2/1 fi---- etd bs 1.5+/1 fi for the cost .
make the fr at 1.1/1 fr for 1.3/1 fr . you are working whit ship whit same value ,de.... get a nice zikoian anti de , and sitch theyr fleet eta 8 , shold o nice tihng whit a eta 8 att fleet .

that would fight cathar , since you can land and gain a snignificant advantage , added whit number , nearly same as land when no ship target mine .

6 race? zerglin , whit emp and steal , and a eta 10 fleet .
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