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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 16:12   #1
newt
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re-write the manual for the combat code!

So! I've wasted weeks now coding a bcalc when I could probably have finished it within a day or two with a decent manual (or an actual working bcalc in existence to test mine against). Indeed, there isn't even a bcalc that can work out any part of a combat correctly. I blame this 100% on the manual (assuming the combat code itself isn't faulty).

Anyway, there's two reasons for me making this thread:
  • To try and get the manual re-written
  • To help any people wanting to make a bcalc

The issues involve ships firing on the same classes in different/same t1/t2/t3 (and ofc in the same init). There are two such issues (describing them using examples):

Issue #1:

Vipers fire t1 and freeze all the de - do scarabs re-freeze these already frozen de ships in their t2, or instead skip their t2 and fire on their t3 target: fr? Similarly for killing: locusts fire t1 against cr, killing them all. Do broadswords re-kill the cr in their t2, or skip to their t3 target instead.

This comes down to "do ships re-kill/re-freeze or don't they?" - good luck finding any info in the manual. I was clueless, as was #support and all current bcalcs. Indeed, LCH assumes ships are not re-killed, but are re-frozen. Bizarre. But thruds assumes ships are re-killed, but are not re-frozen. What the ****? Only xvx used consistent logic, and assumed ships are both re-killed and re-frozen (I'd say this is the correct interpretation of the manual).

What did the battle report say from the beta server? It of course gave out the only combination which makes all the bcalcs incorrect: ships are not re-frozen, and they are not re-killed. Below is a summary:

killing:
http://bcalc.thrud.co.uk/index.php?loadfile=game38999a0
http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...87841226801623
http://bcalc.xvx-hq.net/?id=580213778
http://beta.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=2 <-- agrees with lch's

emping:
http://bcalc.thrud.co.uk/index.php?loadfile=game80625a0
http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...15671226843463
xvx agrees with lch's for emp
http://beta.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=3 <-- thruds is correct (but not accurate due to randomness!)

Conclusion - no bcalcs work for freezing [see the other long post below], and only LCH's works for killing...... so far.

Issue #2:

Now say you have banshees and clippers firing at mirages (fr) in their t1 - which ship kills first and thus allows the other to fire mostly at their t2/t3 classes? LCH says the banshees kill the fr, allowing the clippers to kill co in their t2. I've only looked into this for killing ships. Thrud/xvx ofc (re: issue #1) say that both clippers and the banshees both kill 10k mirages first, which we know is wrong.

http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...44041227539052

I haven't asked appoco to test this on the beta yet, but clearly its wrong - I doubt the combat code works out which ship fires first by the order it appears in shipstats.txt.

14:12 <+SpacedMonkey> the fr available to shoot at are divided by among the banshee and clipper by value

Finally someone in #support who knwos what he's talking about! (though he isnt 100% sure - but it does seem like the only sensible way that it can be done. Maybe split them up amongst the clippers/banshee by how much damage they do instead of value... appoco needs to test it I think.)

Conclusion - LCH doesn't work for killing any more.... (unless the combat code is completely crap for this scenario).

================

Anyway, hope thats of help to any budding bcalc coders. I'm now so fed up that I'm stopping all my work on it now. Irritating like you would not believe.

And PA-team - please have someone used to the combat code write up a detailed manual on it. The current manual would be acceptable if pa had an inbuilt working bcalc, but since pa relies on external ones who rely on the manual.....!

edit: in hindsight, the two issues are really the same issue ... ish. But much easier to comprehend split into two like this. I think.
edit #2: I didn't look at stealing since I wanted to get my own bcalc working for emping/killing first... chances are there are similar issues there.

edit #3: actual advice for coders (but since I'm quite bad at coding, this will probably be a hinderance for you).

the way to do it is to for-loop through the inits (I'd have separate loops for inits 1-3, 4-20, 20-30 to make it easier but longer ) - then for-loop through the two sides working out losses for each - but only "saving" the losses after you've looped through both ofcourse. Then loop through t1/t2/t3 so you calculate losses in t1 first, and save those to a temporary array (or whatever) so they are not re-killed in t2/t3 and so forth - but can still kill if they happen to have the same init (hence temporary)

Also, It seems, for each t1/t2/t3, you'll need to loop through fi/co/fr/de/cr/bs to find ships targetting those to split them up (re: issue #2) by value (or maybe damage?)

hahahaha, thats attrocious, but i so cant be arsed putting time into thinking up a proper description, so I'll leave it at that.

Last edited by newt; 25 Nov 2008 at 18:28.
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 16:38   #2
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

This might be a good time to once again ask for a PA-provided battle calculator.
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 17:08   #3
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Aye that would be nice.

Also, to save from adding yet another edit (), I did test out stealing briefly and ofcourse found the strange situation (probably discussed on these forums before, many times) where... ohh I can't remember. But either way, that problem would have been easily fixed by just setting all stealing ships (that target each other) to have different inits (from memory there's only two?).

Similarly, the above two issues in this thread would be fixed if killing/emping ships target target the same classes were given different inits. Or maybe give every single ship a separate init? though I'd agree, that might make the combats a bit less 'fun'. But in my opinion, the current situation is over complicated when you look into the nitty-gritty - a simple rearrangement of inits would solve it. For example, decide the banshee fires first, move the clipper to init 6 (and if needbe, add 1 to every init 6/7/8/9 ship to maintain their order). Similarly with the locust/broadsword, or the scarab/viper.... Or does the added complications in the current stats add to "the fun of pa"? I personally doubt it since no one I've spoken to has even remotely considered the implications. Indeed, its seemingly apparent that very few ppl in pa have a clue how combat actually works anyway.

edit: scrap that idea about separate inits, obvious reason why it would have a huge change to the stats
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 17:18   #4
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

and render the bcalcs produced by the pa community worthless?
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 17:22   #5
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

None of the bcalcs work though... granted its only for a minority of cases due to the current stats (in other rounds' stats, it might be far more evident), but what bugs me (as a coder) is ppl making bcalcs use the completely wrong logic to do so. Due to the inadequacy of the manual!
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 17:58   #6
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
and render the bcalcs produced by the pa community worthless?
Lets see,
a completly accurate calc supplied by planetarion, the creators of this game
OR
a community calc that isn't completly accurate


I know what I'd pick if i had the choice...
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 18:05   #7
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

I have always wondered why the stats use such a small range of initiatives, they are mostly clustered between 2 and 7. SK's have init 40, so presumably there is enough room for every ship to have a seperate initiative, yes it would mean an immense change to the stats but I dont see that as a reason not to try it out sometime, would make for an interesting change.

I assume there is a reason, anyone able to tell me?
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 18:05   #8
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
and render the bcalcs produced by the pa community worthless?
Either I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying, or this is the worst argument I've ever seen you make. :/

On a sidenote, single tick combat makes a different init for each ship a bad idea.
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 18:36   #9
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
and render the bcalcs produced by the pa community worthless?
This is an utterly awful argument. As has been said above, inaccurate bcalcs are already worthless.

I'd still like to see a PATeam response to this: pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=196411#10 (I'm unable to post links).
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 19:32   #10
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

An especially stupid comment since external bcalcs would still be used quite frequently, I'd imagine. Unless the PA one had something uniquely good in it (other than actually working)
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 21:25   #11
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

hey appocomaster fancy an eXcessum game of homam3 friday night?! Will be a proper epic one this time amongst homm3 addicts!
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Unread 24 Nov 2008, 22:31   #12
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

nice thread newt.
too much varies in the calcs to my liking. Though I do remember r10, where spinner refused to give much info, saying it would be random. haha :/
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 00:10   #13
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

By the way - before I was thinking that the problems I'd found (ie, issues #1 and #2 in the first post) were far n few between and very unlikely to actually occur. But jsut ran a script to find all the possible combinations of ships that will have bcalcs giving (depending on numbers) wildly incorrect results:

Pegasus Spirit Clipper
Drake Phoenix
Wyvern Banshee Clipper
Locust Gryphon Broadsword
Scarab Viper Tarantula Scorpion
Tarantula Scarab Scorpion
Phantom Wraith Revenant Cutter
Banshee Wyvern Clipper
Revenant Phantom Shadow Cutter
Shadow Revenant
Spectre Dragon
Cutter Phantom Wraith Revenant
Clipper Pegasus Wyvern Banshee Spirit
Thief Cutlass
Recluse Beetle
Broadsword Gryphon Locust Ghost
Pillager Marauder
Scorpion Scarab Tarantula


quite a few! Oh, some of them are repeated heh - so the list isn't quite that long (I cba finding which are repeated or improving my lickle script )
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 00:16   #14
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt View Post
Phoenix Drake
Gryphon Locust Broadsword
Pegasus Spirit Clipper
Wyvern Banshee Clipper
Dragon Spectre
Beetle Recluse
Scarab Viper Tarantula Scorpion
Phantom Wraith Revenant Cutter
Shadow Revenant
Marauder Pillager
Thief Cutlass
Still substantial.
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 15:18   #15
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Dont worry Appoco your game is perfect, newt is just trying to find an excuse to not finish something again
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 15:19   #16
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
and render the bcalcs produced by the pa community worthless?
A planetarion hosted calc does not need all of the functions the community calcs have anyway (like xp calc, other fancy stuff)
Just a simple calc that shows the exact fleetlosses & capped/lost roids would be more than enough.

It would also help new players that often don't check if there are usefull tools like calcs, other stuff out there.
I still remember round 11 and the feeling i got when people showed me a bcalc and sandmans/pilkara...
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 15:58   #17
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki View Post
Dont worry Appoco your game is perfect, newt is just trying to find an excuse to not finish something again
Just because of you, I will finish it soon as there's a working bcalc out there (so yeh, never. Fingers crossed!)
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 16:22   #18
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Sorry man, i didnt mean to call you out in front of all these people
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 16:59   #19
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

EMP is slightly random so it's not ever going to be 100% accurate
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 17:09   #20
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Is that an intentional feature or bad coding? I'm personally all for a bit of randomness, so long as its intentional - like unit scans. Anywho spose I'll check to see whether thruds did actually calculate the emp battle correctly or not, but wasn't accurate because of the randomness malarky.

edit: also, is it actually random? eg if you ran that emp battle again on the beta server, would you get slightly different results? If not, then I'm against the ""random"" part

Last edited by newt; 25 Nov 2008 at 17:14.
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 17:50   #21
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

I always knew there was an explanation for me being crap at PA
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 18:15   #22
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Ok so an update to the first post concerning thruds and emping:

issue #1:
thruds does indeed calculate it properly - but isn't accurate due to the randomness factor.

issue #2:
thruds suffers the same problem as LCH, eg:
http://bcalc.thrud.co.uk/index.php?loadfile=game14990a0

So, still no bcalc that uses the correct logic for either emping or killing, let alone stealing + combinations of the three.

And for completeness, a more complete list of ships which are affected by both issues:

issue #2 - t1:
  • Scarab Scorpion
  • Banshee Clipper
  • Marauder Pillager
  • Ghost Broadsword

issue #2 - t2:
  • Gryphon Broadsword
  • Pegasus Clipper

[note: removed the beetle/recluse and phantom/cutter combinations from both lists since they fire on exactly the same ships in the same orders - and thus no matter which fires first, the same damage will be done to all classes.]

issue #1 - first ship fires t1, others are effected in their later t2/t3:
  • Phoenix Drake
  • Gryphon Locust Broadsword
  • Pegasus Spirit
  • Drake Phoenix
  • Wyvern Banshee
  • Dragon Spectre
  • Viper Scarab
  • Locust Gryphon Broadsword
  • Scarab Tarantula
  • Tarantula Scorpion
  • Phantom Revenant
  • Banshee Wyvern
  • Wraith Phantom Cutter
  • Revenant Shadow
  • Spirit Pegasus Clipper
  • Spectre Dragon
  • Cutlass Thief
  • Cutter Revenant
  • Clipper Wyvern
  • Thief Cutlass
  • Scorpion Tarantula


[note: I don't think any of these are repeats - if they appear in different orders then it will not repeat the consequences of the previous order. I think. Either way, it will mean the overall effect of combat involving repeated ships will be quite small (or 0) and thus you can effectively remove them completely (not just the second/third ones). But that needs more thinking which you can do if you want]

issue #1 - first ship fires t2, others are effected in their later t3:
  • Viper Scarab
  • Locust Broadsword

And below is a summary of which bcalcs are effected by which issues and when:
  • xvx - affected by both issues for all ships.
  • LCH - issue #1 for emp ships, and issue #2 for all.
  • thruds - issue #1 for kill ships, issue #2 for all.

Last edited by newt; 25 Nov 2008 at 19:09.
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 18:21   #23
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Shall I bother reinstalling msn just to chat with you once a month jc? I'm thinking its maybe time to take our relationship onto the next level: text msgs/phone calls! Or even rl-meets. Or even even irc!
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Unread 25 Nov 2008, 18:29   #24
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

I've been so busy I hadn't noticed you had uninstalled MSN. I was going to get in touch with you about a rl meet though (Sat 6th Dec). We can talk about bcalcs and lots of other interesting things!
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 02:25   #25
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

at times like these I wish I lived in england!
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 03:46   #26
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

I will base so many conversations around you wish that you'll effectively be there anyway!

And Brian thinks he's working that weekend ;( I didn't ask if lyndsay fancied coming on her own.
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 10:35   #27
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 14:30   #28
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I have always wondered why the stats use such a small range of initiatives, they are mostly clustered between 2 and 7. SK's have init 40, so presumably there is enough room for every ship to have a seperate initiative, yes it would mean an immense change to the stats but I dont see that as a reason not to try it out sometime, would make for an interesting change.

I assume there is a reason, anyone able to tell me?
Some rounds ago, each ship HAD its own initiative - from zero (spider, cath emp fi) to 38 (guardian, cath norm bs), then came the zik stealers and finally the pods (SK didn't exist then).
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 15:01   #29
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

I also had the problem of knowing which ship of the same init fired first.

I even tried having all the ships firing in the same init, firing all damage at everything it could, then actually doing the killing. But this leads to who got back the left over shots.
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 18:04   #30
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Yeh, I like xvx's solution to the problem by just having everything re-kill/freeze. Certainly simplifies the code

Can anyone recommend a good fps for me by the way? About to finish crysis (by far and away my favourite ever, or since return to castle wolfenstein anyway). Think I'll try another before getting the 2nd crysis game though. Thinking cod4/5 or fallout 3 atm (never played their prequels either)
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 18:37   #31
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Have you played FEAR? It's pretty decent.
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 20:31   #32
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

FEAR was scary, but easy. Fallout 3 is fun, but there's not a lot of strategy involved. I don't like CoD myself, but many people do.
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Unread 26 Nov 2008, 22:16   #33
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

OK! FEAR it is
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Unread 27 Nov 2008, 00:07   #34
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

fallout isnt a fps though?

they cant have ****ed it that badly :/
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Unread 27 Nov 2008, 01:05   #35
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

I'm getting qutie decent now btw wish at headshots! allbeit against computer opponents (on hard difficulty though!!!).

Once I have finished FEAR, we shall play cs again! You have a week or so to find us a private server ;(
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Unread 27 Nov 2008, 07:20   #36
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Deadspace.
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Unread 28 Nov 2008, 14:39   #37
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

newt you arent a gamer its a fact the best game you are good at is irc. Anyway when the **** are you gonna get a 360 so that we can play on xbox live.

p.s. I bet you spassed out in joy over this thread though, al these cuties paying you attention. Cute <3
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Unread 28 Nov 2008, 18:07   #38
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

nah man, the thread i made about r24 was the cutie one over 300 replies!!! My little ego lived on that for a good year or so.

I've come close to buying an xbox twice now.. just still can't see me enjoying non-keyboard/mouse games
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Unread 1 Dec 2008, 17:27   #39
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

GIVE IN MAN. JUST DO IT(c)
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Unread 7 Dec 2008, 02:40   #40
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Well, restarted my bcalc yesterday. Thought I'd share my python script for how to work out killing (inits 4->19) - and I know my code isn't the best! For a few reasons... I should be using arrays instead of databases (but my bcalc won't be public, so not arsed about resources/time delays. I find mysql commands much easier to code/read than fkin arrays/dictionaries/etc - if only cos you dont have to mess around with turning things from ints <-> strings). And ofcourse, I daresay my code is probably not as simple as it could be .......

Anyway, just thought it might help bcalc-makers with what to do - especially when and where to have certain for loops.

http://dpaste.com/hold/96697/

Needless to say, it takes care of both problems I've mentioned in this thread above. For issue #2 I've assumed that (for example) the number of clippers and banshees that fire on the mirages are worked out by the ratio of their damages. Not values....

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Unread 7 Dec 2008, 04:25   #41
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Any chance of getting this thread back on track?

I feel the pain which Newt has faced, the manual needs updating to reflect the changes. Features have been added over the past few rounds seem to have very small mentions in the manual. Various assumptions are also made which we all might know and take for granted.

The things which the manual misses out on includes:

- Multiple attackers. We know that if two people attack at the same time they'll only get the full cap of roids if they send a certain amount of pods according to value - this isn't mentioned. Nothing is mentioned about proportions of ships firing, eg. if 2 players send 500 and 1000 ships but fewer are needed to take out T1 targets.

- Multiple ships of the same init (similar to the above issue). As this thread mentions - a lot of assumptions are being made as to what happens - bcalcs are double killing, assuming that Cath ships come before Xan ships of the same init, etc. Nothing in the manual deals with it.

- Stealing ships suiciding. Mentioned on the combat page but missing on the formula page. I know it seems fairly obvious and seems quite simple - but it should be added for clarity along with anything else which might be missing.

The entire manual could do with improving - but combat is a bit of a sore spot.


One thing which would really make development of such things easier would be a sandboxed version of the game which would allow coders of various tools to be able to test all their various things without having to obtain scans/reports from the live game just to get an idea of how things work. Something similar to the beta version of the game would do nicely - even if it was available for signups by request only.
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Unread 7 Dec 2008, 21:24   #42
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper View Post
One thing which would really make development of such things easier would be a sandboxed version of the game which would allow coders of various tools to be able to test all their various things without having to obtain scans/reports from the live game just to get an idea of how things work. Something similar to the beta version of the game would do nicely - even if it was available for signups by request only.
Here's a far simpler and less resource intensive solution. Still yet to see a PATeam response to this btw!
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Unread 8 Dec 2008, 03:21   #43
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

I myself would just prefer a good manual writeup than a frontend for the combat code. I'd much rather read a description and code, than code blindly and compare against a working version. Also, external bcalcs will always be used - more than an internal PA one I'd say, so can understand why pa don't add one. But there's no excuse for a shit manual resulting in no one knowing how combat works.

For example, a few things that should definitely be mentioned (or described rather):
  • For a particular init, t1/t2/t3 are effectively different inits (only difference is they come with 0.6,0.3 factors) - the opposite is implied in the manual at the moment. I can understand why xvx made their bcalc the way it is.
  • What happens when two ships fire at the same target at the same time (ie in the same init and the same t1/t2/t3). For all 3 its damage ratios ***
  • The randomness factor in emping - if you don't want to provide a reason for it fine, but it needs a mention. And is it 'real' randomness (eg as for unit scans) or not (eg bad coding)?

That really wouldn't take long to add in, and would make the manual complete for combat - though I would say more on stealing is needed too.

*** This is the only way it can happen assuming that you work out how many ships die, and then find out which ships actually killed them (assuming pa only deals with linear equations in the combat code). Is that how the combat works though? there are other alternatives I suppose... Or is my analysis wrong? Would be nice to have it in the manual for clarity

Last edited by newt; 8 Dec 2008 at 04:28.
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Unread 8 Dec 2008, 05:18   #44
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

Also, for stealing - an explanation of why these 2 bcalcs are both correct is needed:

http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...73091228708322
http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...28361228708375

Instead of the current effort:

Quote:
Originally Posted by teh manual
Steal ships die when they steal other ships, losing as much as possible in value as they steal
I mean, that "kind of" does the job - but is too vague. Needs a second or third line.
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Unread 8 Dec 2008, 06:35   #45
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

3 posts in a row still, some info on stealing for you, in line with the previous posts of mine!

Issue #2:

LCH (bizarrely) calcs correctly for this situation - for example:

http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...43701228713297

but doesn't for the init 1->20 version of it (see above).

Thruds and xvx obviously still suffer from issue #1 so fail for stealing regardless.

Issue #1:
cba - will follow similar trends as before.

Finally ... just tested to make sure that all the bcalcs do (for example) the following correctly:

10k tarants freeze 6k dragons
10k gryphons kill 2234 dragons
remaining 1447 dragons kill 3076 tarants

They do! So I've now finished trying to find faults with them all now! Hurray!

Also, fairly sure my bcalc works perfectly - if anyone out there wants to maybe code a php frontend for it or so....
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Unread 8 Dec 2008, 07:25   #46
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

well done Master Newt
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Unread 9 Dec 2008, 08:58   #47
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more on emping

So... another thing that needs explaining in the manual on emping.

We know that in combat you first kill unemped ships, and then any previously emped ones. Fine. Weirdly, and I can't get my head around the logic behind this, you do include the previously emped ships in the formula:

Lost Ships = (total damage on class of ship X / armour of ship X)* (number of ships of X/total number of ships in class of ship X)

So its like ... you fire at both emped and unemped ships - but you only kill those that are unemped first. Don't understand how that can happen I've been coding my bcalc assuming that you only fire at unemped ships - and if there are still some attacking ships left over, you then fire at the previously emped targets.

Ah well, another good few hours wasted thanks to an inept manual (I'm assuming I'm wrong and lch/thruds are correct since they're in agreement for once).

An example of what I mean:

http://bcalc.lch-hq.org/index.php?id...71141228809182

the wyverns shooting t5 there kill:
clipper 879
privateer 213
drake 548
spectre 76659
gryphon 702
pegasus 1104
buccaneer 1204
widow 25885
minotaur 52

If instead you did it my way, the wyverns would instead kill:
clipper 945
privateer 242
drake 620
spectre 76817
gryphon 755
pegasus 1207
buccaneer 1386
widow 25017
minotaur 60

Doesn't look like that huge a difference, and even with knockon effects in further inits it probably won't ammount to more than 10k value difference between calcs and reality ...... its just annoying from a bcalc-logic point of view
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Unread 9 Dec 2008, 12:32   #48
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Re: more on emping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt View Post
So its like ... you fire at both emped and unemped ships - but you only kill those that are unemped first. Don't understand how that can happen I've been coding my bcalc assuming that you only fire at unemped ships - and if there are still some attacking ships left over, you then fire at the previously emped targets.
To be fair, this is something we've known for as long as the system works - it's something we assume. The bare minimum amount of firing power is needed to stop a fleet, after that it goes towards more killing.

However this is yet another assumption which should be made clear in the manual.
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Unread 9 Dec 2008, 12:53   #49
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Here's a far simpler and less resource intensive solution. Still yet to see a PATeam response to this btw!
Or they could just do this and do away with the need for external bcalcs altogether!
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Unread 9 Dec 2008, 13:07   #50
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Re: re-write the manual for the combat code!

For the record, either solution is a good solution in my opinion, but one requires more effort than the other, doing both wouldn't hurt though!
(If the effort is put into writing a clear documentation for the battle engine, continued effort will be required to keep it up to date, which may be a problem long-term, given the current track-record of the manual.)

Last edited by ellonweb; 9 Dec 2008 at 13:18.
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