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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 09:22   #1
Rumad
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From the neutrals stand....

Well a lot was made of the impact of no blocks before the round started. Apart from some whinging what is the general view?

is no blocks better than directed blocks or is the unfocussed approach a little boring?

Just wondering as a impartial unalligned observer.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 09:47   #2
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

It isn't really late enough into the round to judge it, in my opinion :/
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 10:29   #3
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
It isn't really late enough into the round to judge it, in my opinion :/
Well it may be late enough for you to have a "feel" for how things are though and wether its how you expected it to be and if not why not.

You can also point out why its good or bad and how this differs from "blocked" rounds of pa.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 10:47   #4
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Mistu and FanG are trying to keep the old spirit of the "traditional" planetarion round alive it seems.

Good job guys
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 11:09   #5
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game'
Mistu and FanG are trying to keep the old spirit of the "traditional" planetarion round alive it seems.

Good job guys
It was planned a long time ago im quite sure, heh.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 11:20   #6
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Indeed Mav, they'd have not had so many shared battle groups and stuff had it not been planned well in advance, I bet they thought they were so clever tricking everyone though.

Things just got more Interesting.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 11:26   #7
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
Well a lot was made of the impact of no blocks before the round started. Apart from some whinging what is the general view?

is no blocks better than directed blocks or is the unfocussed approach a little boring?

Just wondering as a impartial unalligned observer.
polarisation is starting, blocks seem inevitable, so in effect we have the same.

i'm sure we'll be drawing battle lines sooner or later, as either 1up will fend off FAnG/MISTU which will prob result in other alliances being brought into play or 1up will start to suffer, and need to get some allies to protect themselves. As soon as 1up looked to be getting a lead, there wasn't much doubt in my mind that FAnG would get a bit of help from some friends, cos it would make sense.

To those outside the conflict, the only conclusion can be FFS, as they get caught up in someone elses war. I expect in 30hours or so we'll have a clearer picture.

lo kevin btw
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 11:41   #8
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
polarisation is starting, blocks seem inevitable, so in effect we have the same.

i'm sure we'll be drawing battle lines sooner or later, as either 1up will fend off FAnG/MISTU which will prob result in other alliances being brought into play or 1up will start to suffer, and need to get some allies to protect themselves. As soon as 1up looked to be getting a lead, there wasn't much doubt in my mind that FAnG would get a bit of help from some friends, cos it would make sense.

To those outside the conflict, the only conclusion can be FFS, as they get caught up in someone elses war. I expect in 30hours or so we'll have a clearer picture.

lo kevin btw
The way FanG and Mistu have gone about this has meant other alliances have been made to get involved. I expect the same as you, there will be a much clearer picture in 24hours time, when the next wave of proper attacks start over again.

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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:14   #9
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Ain't it good if there is a cooperation between two alliances to take the #1 out. That's what we want to see right? Thing that should happen after that goal is reached should be stop working together and focus on your personal goal again, that's becoming #1. As soon as one of your past helper(s) is #1, another attempt should be made(with help prolly) to close the gap, so you can go for your personal goal again.

That's the game we all want to see, so there is nothing wrong with helping eachother taking out a bigger fish, as long as it happens again when another fish(not yourself) become biggest again.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:18   #10
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Thunderball
Ain't it good if there is a cooperation between two alliances to take the #1 out. That's what we want to see right? Thing that should happen after that goal is reached should be stop working together and focus on your personal goal again, that's becoming #1. As soon as one of your past helper(s) is #1, another attempt should be made(with help prolly) to close the gap, so you can go for your personal goal again.

That's the game we all want to see, so there is nothing wrong with helping eachother taking out a bigger fish, as long as it happens again when another fish(not yourself) become biggest again.
I'm agreed. A constantly fluctuating universe where alliances loyalties to each other can alter over night is what PA needs to be enjoyable.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:19   #11
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

So in a universe like that, what alliance in their right mind would want to be #1 ?
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:37   #12
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

who exactly areb the neutrals may i just add as there is one block which means who exactly are in the middle & why do they choose to be.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:48   #13
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game'
So in a universe like that, what alliance in their right mind would want to be #1 ?

Every alliance wants to be #1, but not untill just before the last tick..
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:51   #14
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game'
So in a universe like that, what alliance in their right mind would want to be #1 ?

Isn't that what you have tactics and strategy for?

Winning is a art in itself.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:54   #15
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbd
I'm agreed. A constantly fluctuating universe where alliances loyalties to each other can alter over night is what PA needs to be enjoyable.
The question is whether you think that will be the case. If it gets to the point where one war drags on and on, were back to the norm effectively.

If it comes to the crunch I expect 1up to be finding friends quick, and the war will probably be prolonged, and it has the potential to drag on and on.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:55   #16
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game'
So in a universe like that, what alliance in their right mind would want to be #1 ?
You'ld plan out how it's probably going to go, and then when the round appears to be coming to a close assume a dominant position and take the round from there.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 12:56   #17
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

We will prevail!!

Was quite interesting last night to say the least, finally some action
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Quote:
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LCH is too far away, now they are the same roid amout as 1up
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 13:05   #18
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Anyone saying temporary friends is a good thing should reconsider applying this to the current "block" of Fang and Mistu.
They went the same way last round and they didnt break up, The keywords were loyalty and honor. For temporary friends there should no such feelings but only "need" and "own profit".

The question is what will mistu gain from it, once 1up is gone?
1up drops from rank 1 to 3 lets assume, mistu would still not be in any position to win and wouldnt have changed much positions compared to LCH keeping up its good roiding. So whats in for them if they break up after killing 1up ? Fang ontop sure but ?
So lets be realisitcal Mistu acts just as a support to Fang, the only winner will be Fang, if LCH (the current #2) outranks Fang still when 1up goes down they will be #1 and as a result the fang-mistu block will hit them to make fang #1 leading again to another blockwar.

On an additional note, presetup combined battlegroups is a different story then temporary friends or agreeing to hit the same enemy.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 13:09   #19
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

I wonder if MISTU will play this round as FAnG's lapdog again, providing them the extra firepower that FAnG needs to win two rounds in a row, or if MISTU will go for a retaliatory war against LCH. I would personally like to see MISTU show that they have a backbone this round.

As for blocking, I think that alliances should never have to block, if they make their moves early enough, then there should never be a need to block. The problem is that alliances are cowardly, and most hate the idea of taking any risk. If FAnG had wanted to show that they are truly the best and strongest alliance, then they could have attacked 1up earlier, or by themeselves, they still would have a perfectly reasonable shot of taking on 1up by themselves. Attacking 1up earlier in the round, when they only had a small lead would have prevented the need (which there still is none atm) of blocking to take them down.

I think that when all the alliances learn to play aggresively and take risks, that is when we will have a very fun blocking free round.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 13:16   #20
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Helix good post

1up isnt too far ahead, Fang could have taken on them themself. remember there is still random incomings on the #1 aswell and the member - roid - score difference is not ultimately huge.

Roidgrowth is currently 3k per day, difference between fang and 1up is 11k roids. by adding he 5-6 member difference on an average of 440-500 roids for top alliances that would already fill a gasp pf 2-3k.

LCH did a difference of 1k roids per day by having good attacks, so Fang could fill the roidgap in 7-8 days by changing their attackstrategy and having better raids. Instead they choosed the easy way, getting a partner, winning by superior numbers-firepower instead of skill or providing better attacks
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 13:18   #21
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desse
Every alliance wants to be #1, but not untill just before the last tick..
Well said my old friend....
It should become an art to stay in #2 position and wait until the right moment to grab the #1 position. If you grab it to soon, there is enough time to form a counter block and overtake you. That's the fun part!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
Anyone saying temporary friends is a good thing should reconsider applying this to the current "block" of Fang and Mistu.
They went the same way last round and they didnt break up, The keywords were loyalty and honor. For temporary friends there should no such feelings but only "need" and "own profit".

The question is what will mistu gain from it, once 1up is gone?
1up drops from rank 1 to 3 lets assume, mistu would still not be in any position to win and wouldnt have changed much positions compared to LCH keeping up its good roiding. So whats in for them if they break up after killing 1up ? Fang ontop sure but ?
So lets be realisitcal Mistu acts just as a support to Fang, the only winner will be Fang, if LCH (the current #2) outranks Fang still when 1up goes down they will be #1 and as a result the fang-mistu block will hit them to make fang #1 leading again to another blockwar.

On an additional note, presetup combined battlegroups is a different story then temporary friends or agreeing to hit the same enemy.
To make it very short. History has proved that once a block was made, it didn't break without good reasons. If either MISTU or FaNG or ANY other allaince settle for the #2 spot while being in the #1 block, it is sure they haven't learned anything from last round. At the moment it's to early to tell that, and imho they do nothing wrong and should continue with there common goal and stop working together after that goal is reached.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 13:45   #22
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game'
So in a universe like that, what alliance in their right mind would want to be #1 ?
Look at a sport like long distance running, some try to win from the front, others come from behind half way through and others rely on a last stretch sprint. In a game that relies on numbers and hours online, politics is the only area that really has any skill involved.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 14:12   #23
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

I hope the other alliances out there punish those two for blocking and being pathetic. It really is sad, how Kjel and rest of the FAnG "PR squad" (laughable) kept going on about how they'd go solo, then do this.

Lame.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 14:35   #24
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Most people say Mistu and FAnG will break up when they have "killed" 1up. However, there is no guarantee what-so-ever they will. And looking at last round, I'd deem it even more unlikely that they will. 1up was not nearly so big they had to be taken out by a 2 alliance block. If FAnG had hit them earlier or now, other alliances would see that 1up was loosing score/roids one or two might have jumped on the bandwagon and 1up would be "killed" without any organised co-op.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 14:40   #25
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
Anyone saying temporary friends is a good thing should reconsider applying this to the current "block" of Fang and Mistu.
They went the same way last round and they didnt break up, The keywords were loyalty and honor. For temporary friends there should no such feelings but only "need" and "own profit".

The question is what will mistu gain from it, once 1up is gone?
1up drops from rank 1 to 3 lets assume, mistu would still not be in any position to win and wouldnt have changed much positions compared to LCH keeping up its good roiding. So whats in for them if they break up after killing 1up ? Fang ontop sure but ?
So lets be realisitcal Mistu acts just as a support to Fang, the only winner will be Fang, if LCH (the current #2) outranks Fang still when 1up goes down they will be #1 and as a result the fang-mistu block will hit them to make fang #1 leading again to another blockwar.

On an additional note, presetup combined battlegroups is a different story then temporary friends or agreeing to hit the same enemy.
straight from the furby school of propaganda.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 14:46   #26
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
Helix good post

1up isnt too far ahead, Fang could have taken on them themself. remember there is still random incomings on the #1 aswell and the member - roid - score difference is not ultimately huge.

Roidgrowth is currently 3k per day, difference between fang and 1up is 11k roids. by adding he 5-6 member difference on an average of 440-500 roids for top alliances that would already fill a gasp pf 2-3k.

LCH did a difference of 1k roids per day by having good attacks, so Fang could fill the roidgap in 7-8 days by changing their attackstrategy and having better raids. Instead they choosed the easy way, getting a partner, winning by superior numbers-firepower instead of skill or providing better attacks
It gets even better - whining now along wih the fact that FAnG should be man enough to take on 1up onis own.

I can see the anti bloc movement moving in vry soon.

However, sid did point out that alliances wih no pre round sharing was not classed as a block as long as co operation was limited. I don't know if FAnG and MISTU Are assisting each other, but I would prefer they pegged 1up back a bit to keep the alliance fields level. Is easy t cast stones ino the water as a diversionary tactic but at te end of the day if you stat loosing to FAnG by 70k a planet then you to should adopt this approach. It should keep the round interesting as long as the sides don't become static.

Good to see WP supporting 1up though. Does that mean WP and LCH are assisting 1up or i it just complete "coincidence" wp supporting 1up and LCH launching on MISTU?
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 14:49   #27
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkie
Most people say Mistu and FAnG will break up when they have "killed" 1up. However, there is no guarantee what-so-ever they will. And looking at last round, I'd deem it even more unlikely that they will. 1up was not nearly so big they had to be taken out by a 2 alliance block. If FAnG had hit them earlier or now, other alliances would see that 1up was loosing score/roids one or two might have jumped on the bandwagon and 1up would be "killed" without any organised co-op.
I see no benefit for either alliance in long drawn out co-ops - at the end of the day they both want to win, as such they will b doing there own political manuvering later. Also I don't expect them to kill 1up - too risky this early to consider such a tactic though I can see why they want to peg them back a bit.

Btw hi linkie ltns mate
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 15:38   #28
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
I see no benefit for either alliance in long drawn out co-ops - at the end of the day they both want to win, as such they will b doing there own political manuvering later. Also I don't expect them to kill 1up - too risky this early to consider such a tactic though I can see why they want to peg them back a bit.

Btw hi linkie ltns mate
yer, it's been a while

If the co-operation was just for last night/tonight then it's fine and I don't really mind. But I doubt 1up will bother to keep playing if they re-gain #1 without blocking, get pegged again, regain #1, get pegged again etc.

Also I hope that the 1up command won't start blocking to revenge. I strongly doubt they will if it's just a night or two of of extra incomming we should be able to handle it pretty nicely. But naturally if the block is not disbanded, counter-measures will most likely be taken.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 15:39   #29
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

/me wonders why the Ever-so-active Kj hasnt posted in this thread yet
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 16:11   #30
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

I see no problem in fang/mistu working together. There is, imo, nothing wrong with ppl working together, as long as they play to win (so mistu would then block against fang), rather than sit and play second fiddle.
Thats where the problem arises.

And for the record, what ever happened to good old 'we are at war' posts fomr HC that used to make these boards interesting (thinking vts on conc etc).

Let the fun begin
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 16:43   #31
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

[quote=Rumad]It gets even better - whining now along wih the fact that FAnG should be man enough to take on 1up onis own.
{/quote]
No stating Fang already decided to make a move without trying anything on their own, so much to their preround postings. They could have saved us the bandwith.

Quote:
I can see the anti bloc movement moving in vry soon.

However, sid did point out that alliances wih no pre round sharing was not classed as a block as long as co operation was limited. I don't know if FAnG and MISTU Are assisting each other, but I would prefer they pegged 1up back a bit to keep the alliance fields level. Is easy t cast stones ino the water as a diversionary tactic but at te end of the day if you stat loosing to FAnG by 70k a planet then you to should adopt this approach. It should keep the round interesting as long as the sides don't become static.
Since apparently you have no clue what you are talking about you cant really much add to this discussion so why bother ? You admitted yourself you have no clue, so dont blame it on anyone with more insight.

Quote:
Good to see WP supporting 1up though. Does that mean WP and LCH are assisting 1up or i it just complete "coincidence" wp supporting 1up and LCH launching on MISTU?
Im sure a wise man like you would have figured out that LCH has been attacking Mistu for quiet awhile on their own. What motivation WP has is quiet obvious looking at the rankings. Especially considering Mistu picked the fight with 1up while having an active war with LCH already. Stupid or brave on their behalf, future will tell.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 17:08   #32
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Can't see WP helping 1UP as they hate alot of us they changing allie last round.
Also Outh himself is in a FAnG gal along with the likes of TP.......(3 fleet attacking script kiddie scum)
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 17:22   #33
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Since when was 2 alliances allying blocking? I've always wondered where and when 2 alliances 'allying' became blocking and so forth, round 2, round 3 etc etc etc. When the game first started it was the norm for alliances to be napped or allied with a couple of others, these weren't considered to be blocks. I've always considered a 'block' to be a group of alliances designed with entire game domination in mind, surely 2 alliances allying when there are so many other top level alliances going at it aren't going to dominate the game, unlike previous rounds where by it was 500 vs 500 and so forth, it's now 200 vs 100 vs 100 vs 100 vs 100 etc etc etc with everyone chipping at everyone.

Now you could argue otherwise, alliances can no longer ally they just block, but then you have to consider, IPC, OPA, NAV, LOST, Cv and F-Crew a few rounds ago when they formed CUDOS, was that a block or a group of alliances, they never threatened the top alliances, they never threatened to dominate the entire game, so was it really a block, or just a coalition of sorts, definately mincing of words I know. But surely the term block needs some kind of proper definition before a witch hunt can really start.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 17:30   #34
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

surely the meaning of the word "block" is to "stop" others from winning?

I'm not currently seening any fang/mistu co-op stopping lch and 1up from being ahead of them in score?

In the past large groups of alliances were formed so they at least have a *chance* of serviving a round with a decent score, instead of being 100mil behind the smallest fury/vts member.

these guys might be working together, instead of flame they should be given pity, instead of insults they should be complimented on their ability to openly show their defects that they arn't capable of serviving on there own and need to hold someones hand.

or would an offical from either fang or mistu like to challenge that?
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 17:31   #35
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slinky
Since when was 2 alliances allying blocking? I've always wondered where and when 2 alliances 'allying' became blocking and so forth, round 2, round 3 etc etc etc. When the game first started it was the norm for alliances to be napped or allied with a couple of others, these weren't considered to be blocks.
Since the universe became so small that a few hundred players on one side makes up a large percentage of the universe.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 17:41   #36
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
Well it may be late enough for you to have a "feel" for how things are though and wether its how you expected it to be and if not why not.

You can also point out why its good or bad and how this differs from "blocked" rounds of pa.
I think it is good that there is a sertain unsertainty in the rounds politics, and who will win etc. In other rounds, only unsertainty was who would get backstabbed first. Who would win was settled as soon as the different alliances declared their blocks. And noway would alliances be allowed such a nice start as they have now. 2-3 of them would surely be really bashed.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 18:58   #37
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

I havent read so much propaganda bullshit at once.............it made me chuckle though...... If it only had been some truth in it but im afraid it aint, so try again.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 19:09   #38
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

These threads are so fun to read, so many people (especially 1up) are creating stories, imagining things
If there was any block it would be obvious
last round's winner alliance losing %7 of it's roids over night actually reflects a block on some place else

kids...
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 19:11   #39
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaRat
/me wonders why the Ever-so-active Kj hasnt posted in this thread yet
He's on summer holiday
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 19:32   #40
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

lol, coudnt have been anything else
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 19:54   #41
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desse
Every alliance wants to be #1, but not untill just before the last tick..
imo it's much more fun to go after your enemies, fight as hard as possible, and see what happens. If that means not finishing #1, so be it. I think that would be more fun than trying to pinch a win at the last tick.

To address the original post:

It's too early to say yet. After all, the main complaint about blocking was that it caused stagnation in the mid-late phase of the round. We haven't reached that stage yet, so the question can't fully be answered.

Personally I find playing without blocks to be more fun in some ways, and more challenging in others. It certainly increases an alliance's exposure to incoming - there's no block members to take the hits for you. But it also opens up far more targets, and removes the need for endless joint target booking channels and the like. Overall I'd say it's more enjoyable thus far, and time will tell if it solves the stagnation problem.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 21:58   #42
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
Good to see WP supporting 1up though. Does that mean WP and LCH are assisting 1up or i it just complete "coincidence" wp supporting 1up and LCH launching on MISTU?
I really can't see how WP could possibly have been supporting 1up. Before today we haven't been targetting any alliances specifically. Those of our members who have their own attack groups (which are 1up attack groups, not multi-alliance BGs) pick their own targets - and provided it's cleared by our arbiter system they attack it. No alliance is marked as friendly in our arbiter - and the only reason for an attack to be denied is the presence of a 1up member in the galaxy. If what you're saying is that those targets happened to have a lot of fang in them (and having looked back over the last few days bookings they don't) then my congratulations to your members for roiding so well that they became the best-looking targets out there.

I've spoken to the HC of many alliances on a regular basis since the round started - including that of fang. I've not spoken to Wolfpack HC since the round started - and we have absolutely no agreements, understandings or cooperation of any kind with them.

1up has been intentionally and actively targetted by a number of alliances (Mistu being the most obvious example) since early on. I'm sure those alliances had their own reasons for it - and as there was no apparent coordination behind it we dealt with the inbound with our fleets rather than on here.

I believe that in allowing a sizable joint Mistu/FAnG battlegroup to form you both laid the seeds of your own destruction. Even if that BG solely targetted galaxies with 1up in, it was also cooperating against the other alliances in those galaxies as well - and irrespective of how you justify such a combined BG, it is seen by many as a far more long-term tie than proper inter-alliance agreements would be. This is because when HC agree that their alliances will cooperate, it is a political decision - and everyone involved knows that it will only last as as long as is expedient for both parties. Cross-alliance BGs are like mixed-alliance private galaxies: individual players choose to work with one another, develop bonds between them and resist attempts to split up just because their HC want them to.

You may have only intended the formation of this BG as a measure to combat 1up (though its formation before ticks even started suggests that isn't the case). The rest of the universe tends to see it as a more long-term commitment between your alliances. And if alliances choose to attack you for it - then you only have yourself to blame.

1up still has no allies and no naps.

EDIT: To satisfy the more paranoid amongst you, we also have no shared channels with other alliances, no attack cooperation with other alliances etc etc.
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 22:15   #43
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

well blow me a joint and light the candles
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 22:40   #44
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

eivind du suger
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Unread 30 Jun 2004, 23:03   #45
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

"Im with stupid" (stals)
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Unread 1 Jul 2004, 01:19   #46
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

lol stian. sier du som ikke kom inn i 1up pga, for mange anti vouch ^^

taper taper taper taper taper taper
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Unread 1 Jul 2004, 02:36   #47
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Hrm...

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Unread 1 Jul 2004, 02:38   #48
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

hehe
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Unread 1 Jul 2004, 02:59   #49
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

ok HOW COOL IS MY 7up tag? made all by myself:P its not inspired by any other alliance
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Unread 1 Jul 2004, 04:54   #50
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Re: From the neutrals stand....

Whats this so-called FAnG/MistuBG i keep hearing about ?
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