[Declined] Race Problem-Rage

[Dovai]

Ok i was told to submit this, i have the idea and a possible way to fix the whole 'every race having steal, zik to strong etc' problem.
Ziks obvioulsy steal ships and then they can use them, meaning a zik player can have all ships potentially. This makes the very powerful as we've seen this round.

My idea is to change the steal abilitie rather then just give it to all races, even if it is only one ship per race. Rather then stealing/subverting ships ziks would have the 'Convert' special.

Converting would be almost exactly the same as subverting except instead of gaining say a Harpy the zik would gain a fighter. This is where hit problems, mainly because i dont know what the PA team can or can't do to the game. Originally i said to have the harpy be an assassin, phoenix = corsair etc. You get the idea. But this wouldnt work obviously.

So what i now suggest is that all stolen ships can be assigned to their type.
The 1 fighter can be made into an assassin OR a corsair. This could possibly be done on the production page or maybe a new page just for ziks. Ships not assigned to a type would not be counted in defense and would be unable to attack.

This would basically mean the ziks cant have other races ships but they can still increase their numbers dramatically like they can now. This may or may not make them slightly less Uber and make them the tough to play race they are meant to be.

[coffee-]

It is an interesting idea, however, I think this would cripple many ziks. This is because as it is, their fleet sucks alone, it only actually is able to function with the added benefit of other races ships. Especially with the late init. They could potentially be as poor defensively as caths were this round.

[Dovai]

Stats are due for a change anyway or we wouldnt be talking about this

Ziks having an armour boost possibly damage too might even out the losses for zik players. It would need quite some testing to iron out the creases remember.

[ChubbyChecker]

This means that Ziks will have to have kill ships that target all classes, which isn't how it is now.

Not sure if I like this, it takes a lot of the character out of stealing. I prefer giving all non-Zik races 1 steal ship.

[Makhil]

i think the zik race works fine, the only problem is ship farming (when it is cleverly done you can't point out the cheating 100%). The stealing ship introduced in speedgame for every race opened up whole new perspectives and made the game funnier. I think it is better than having half the players going zik next round.
Strangely enough your idea is the opposite of what i would suggest. You say keep the stolen ships for their value, but remove their race specifics, I'd say keep the stolen ships as they are but reduce their impact on the value (a ship stolen is worth half its normal value).

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Makhil

I'd say keep the stolen ships as they are but reduce their impact on the value (a ship stolen is worth half its normal value).

So ziks can farm everyone except other ziks for much longer?

I would have thought doubling the value would be better - giving stolen ships a more accurate impact on score (as stolen ships tend to be more valuable to the players than normal zik ships) so that loosing stolen ships has more impact on their score, but gaining stolen ships makes Ziks loose targets quickly. Thus, Ziks who are trying to loose value to get more targets could loose more stolen ships to keep a higher number of ships overall, or loose twice as many zik ships and keep the more precious stolen ships.

To make it easier on the scoring system, maybe only non-zik ships (whether stolen or not) are the only ones that would provide twice as much score.

How would that work?

[cypher]

so basically you're saying ziks grow even faster? and other races have no chance of catching up... (unless ofc you're gonna give them a scoreboost? )

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by cypher

so basically you're saying ziks grow even faster? and other races have no chance of catching up... (unless ofc you're gonna give them a scoreboost? )

Yes. Ziks grow incredibly fast - thus people looking to hit them for XP can do so - but with their whole fleet instead of just pods etc (as suiciding on Ziks for XP gave them the ships they needed to become strong early in the game.) By making it viable to attack ziks "properly" and still receive full XP hopefully it will result in more people attacking Ziks, which should force ziks into thinking whether to dump the infaltionary score and run a leaner fleet (ie, more Zik ships, less emphasis stealers, more reliance on stolen pods instead of excellent flak ships or killers like TBT).

ie: it will be "easier" for ziks to reach the top 100, but instead they will receive alot more incoming that is more difficult to stop than in the past. So Ziks are carrying more "hollow value".

Thoughts?

[Dovai]

The problem with that idea Ultimate Newbie is that the top 100 would be ziks. And even if they all get smashed down it will be very easy to get back up again since they keep gaining double the value everyone else gets. Also it doesnt change the fact that ziks would still be the ultimate race just for being able to have every ship in the game.

[Envious]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Yes. Ziks grow incredibly fast - thus people looking to hit them for XP can do so - but with their whole fleet instead of just pods etc (as suiciding on Ziks for XP gave them the ships they needed to become strong early in the game.) By making it viable to attack ziks "properly" and still receive full XP hopefully it will result in more people attacking Ziks, which should force ziks into thinking whether to dump the infaltionary score and run a leaner fleet (ie, more Zik ships, less emphasis stealers, more reliance on stolen pods instead of excellent flak ships or killers like TBT).

Thoughts?

Immediate thought: it would not reduce but increase the end-game ship farming.

Furthermore: I don't like the whole "XP vs. score" way of thinking. XP should be an added bonus, not the only goal in the game and surely not the only way some races can compete with other races. Which seems exactly the kind of game you are promoting in my opinion.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

ie: it will be "easier" for ziks to reach the top 100, but instead they will receive alot more incoming that is more difficult to stop than in the past. So Ziks are carrying more "hollow value".

Thoughts?

As proven this round, roids mean nothing in the end. The #1 player ended with 1k roids. They don't add to your score and are infact not gonna decide your final rank. Roids are the "means" to attain your objective. you could perfectly win and still end with 50 roids on the last tick.

Now, the problem here is that alot of ziks will be top100, and eventhough you could roid them dry, they won't lose any XP hence catching up will be harder or equal then we saw this round.

[ChubbyChecker]

Roids are important, all the top 10 had a decent roid count during the round. Just because the number 1 planet lost 86% of his roids on the last day it doesn't mean roid count isn't important.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Roids are important, all the top 10 had a decent roid count during the round. Just because the number 1 planet lost 86% of his roids on the last day it doesn't mean roid count isn't important.

Ofcource during the round, roids are important. They give you the resources to build a fleet to capture more roids ... But roiding is piss easy, you know that aswell. KEEPING your roids is alot harder (atleast that's how i feel about it).
Hence losing roids is hardly a big deal aslong as you keep your fleet, you just re-capture the roids you lost in the next attacks.

Roidcount does not add any XP to your final score, like I said it are the "means" to achieve your rank ... (and which was different before the XP system was implemented, there every roid had a double value: not only did they provide resources for building a fleet, they also add value to your score and there was no value/score separation to decide who won, there was only "score" and that was a sumation of fleet and roids).

[ChubbyChecker]

Fair enough.
If stolen ships count double their value Ziks won't be able to roid anybody but other Ziks though because everybody else will be too small. Also roiding giant Ziks will be easy, it was already easy in R13 and will be even easier if ships count double their value. So all the Ziks will have giant value and the rest of us will have giant XP cos we'll all be targetting Ziks. And no ZIks will have a decent roid count cos they'll be stealing roids off each other while we too steal roids off them.

It's a crap idea anyway, I don't know why I went into so much detail

[hylands]

giving stealing away makes it even less interresting to be a zik even counting the all anti batlleship became cruiser problem they are now sitting ducks for terran and so i think the pirate and marauder stats should be changed back making it at least possible to defend a little bit. also i think this contributes to the overal power of terran they grow slow have overpowerred ships and do big damage. and now we are all saying zik should have more value why then they are even more doomed

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Fair enough.
If stolen ships count double their value Ziks won't be able to roid anybody but other Ziks though because everybody else will be too small. Also roiding giant Ziks will be easy, it was already easy in R13 and will be even easier if ships count double their value. So all the Ziks will have giant value and the rest of us will have giant XP cos we'll all be targetting Ziks. And no ZIks will have a decent roid count cos they'll be stealing roids off each other while we too steal roids off them.

\o/

btw, roiding 'big' ziks wasnt easy at all in R13 - it was nigh on impossible except for massive FI fleets (ie, >1 mil fighters) and/or a much larger Zik FR fleet.

Anyway, young grasshopper, it seems that you have cottoned on to what i was thinking about (alas lacking the skills to describe it).

This way, all the 'top' planets can only attack eachother due to inflated value, and those who attack them get full XP doing so. Thus, Ziks can only get to the top positions if they can survive the onslaught in the beginning and middle of the round - and if they get tehre, they can only raid eachother.

I'd like to point out that in R13, Ziks could really only attack eachother at the top ranks anyway, but those top ranks were dominated by Ziks very early on. Hopefully this would make them take longer to get to the top, and make the distribution of the race more even throughout the galaxy.

And just because it is one of my ideas doesnt make it bad. I'd like to think that they are different .

[Envious]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

(and which was different before the XP system was implemented, there every roid had a double value: not only did they provide resources for building a fleet, they also add value to your score and there was no value/score separation to decide who won, there was only "score" and that was a sumation of fleet and roids).

Can't follow you here, roids in your possession STILL count as value, hence score.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Envious

Can't follow you here, roids in your possession STILL count as value, hence score.

But not much at all.

[Envious]

Originally Posted by noah02

But not much at all.

They never really did, so i don't get the point. If you say roids don't count to score as they used to, you can as well say ships don't count to score as they used to.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

If stolen ships count double their value

XP paradise here I come!

[Remy]

Why dont you let the stealing ships die partly. It will result in less ships AND Ziks have to rebuild a bit to steal more. Result: less ships stolen and less ships to steal with.

Problem solved

[noah02]

I still like that idea that someone suggested about only stealing a % and having to research to get more % I think that was a pretty interesting idea.

If ziks where to loose ships to steal I dont think all steal ships should die only certain ones that would create them a greater advantage.

Another idea is that zik should not be able to actually steal every class of ship tbh.

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

btw, roiding 'big' ziks wasnt easy at all in R13 - it was nigh on impossible except for massive FI fleets (ie, >1 mil fighters) and/or a much larger Zik FR fleet.

As a Terran with a DE fleet I had no problem roiding ZIks that were twice my value. Sure, I lost some ships but not much more than if I'd roided a Terran or a Xan that was the same value as me. The XP more than compensated. During the last couple of weeks I even found it difficult to roid Cats that were 50% bigger than me (I only found 1 or 2 of them anyway) because of the number of Vipers they had, better to go for Ziks that were much bigger than me and get good XP.

I would have done it a lot more, only problem being that we were napped with Exil and a lot of the very big Ziks were in that alliance.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Well, Terran DE fleets were very rare...

[Proxi]

Originally Posted by hylands

giving stealing away makes it even less interresting to be a zik even counting the all anti batlleship became cruiser problem they are now sitting ducks for terran and so i think the pirate and marauder stats should be changed back making it at least possible to defend a little bit. also i think this contributes to the overal power of terran they grow slow have overpowerred ships and do big damage. and now we are all saying zik should have more value why then they are even more doomed

Giving ziks zero loss defence is a bad idea, as was shown during the main round.

The speedgame had quite a few big ziks, even though the terrans were easily the best race. I actually quite liked those stats tbh., they just needed a bit of tweaking.