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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 04:32   #1
Yahwe
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Education as opposed to innate intelligence

As those of you who matter are aware I am presently teaching undergraduates at a very very bad university.

I have one student who perturbs me. I know that he is bright. (i do not make mistakes on this)

In tutorials he contributes heavily. He thinks, he challenges and he forms new ideas.

In fact in all aspects but one he is an absolute joy to teach. He makes teaching a collaborative excersise.

BUT, to be frank, his written work is simply appalling. it actually transcends 'merely bad'. it is bloody awful. On paper he is my worst student. Now i'm not saying that he is my best student off paper, there are other good ones. But he is certainly above average.

Yet when it comes to an essay he is without a doubt the worst.

So I wonder how to explain this disparity. I ponder about his previous education.

You see I don't think that anyone has ever bothered to train him in how to express himself. In person the lack of training is almost irrelevent because he has overcome it. BUT on paper this lack of training is disturbingly apparent.

so how do i solve the problem?

If he goes into the exam (in 14 weeks) like this he will seriously under perform.

how do i broach the issue with him? GD suggest some ways of saying "you have great potential but you are wasting it" without seeming so negative.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 04:58   #2
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Just say while he is clearly intelligent etc that his writing skills are not so good.

And say that despite his poor writing skills, say that you know he can do better because he is clearly mor eintelligent than his writing lets on.

Its always better to offer praise before criticism, because it goes much more lightly that way.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 05:00   #3
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

can you get him onto a short term , crash course in creative writing?

It will teach him the basics of expressing yourself in a written form that you seem to indicate hes lacking.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 05:03   #4
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Tell him to read more and better books.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 05:33   #5
Yahwe
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

what i need is an ability to express.

there's no need for creativity. what there is is a lack of structure. when he writes he splurges onto the page. his very use of english is poor.

what i want to do is slap him and say "ffs you are bright stop writing crap" but what worries me is that despite getting to this shit uni, no one has ever bothered to teach him how to order his thoughts.

(i implicitly blame tomkat)
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 05:37   #6
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

So make him read someone with an utterly jaw-dropping command of the written word yahwe. Hell, make him read me!
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 05:39   #7
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

ok

you degree-less wonder
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 05:42   #8
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
ok

you degree-less wonder
They don't do degrees in being fantastic at the internet
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 07:44   #9
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

One way in which you might 'broach the subject' with this poor fellow is to provide him with a D or a C- (I don't know what these grades are in your fancy system) in addition to some strongly worded comments.

Having probably done so; I suggest you ask to speak to him after class. This is akward. But you will have failed him if you do not.

Perhaps you could suggest a writing course? Surely even this lowly institution will provide some sort of 'help you write good' class? Apparently students find these useful. I have not seen any evidence of it.

Alternativly provide everyone with copies of one of your better papers, and also a mediocre one (with their permission of course). Students find this helpful; though it may not be common in England. I have never been to the home island.

Last edited by Cooling; 19 Feb 2006 at 10:50.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 10:30   #10
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

This is an interesting thread. I`m not sure if I can add much to this discussion, except to say I understand Yahwe`s fustration: being an under achiever myself. I guess C- rates my entire life.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 11:10   #11
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

I'm sure there must be some book on "how to structure essays" or something in one of the Cambridge librarys.
I've always been awful at essays and reports and things as well... (I've got business writing training in a month!)
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 11:50   #12
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

If there really is such a massive disparity theres also the potential hes dyslexic...

But yeah, I'd go with the compliment sweetened critisism... And make him understand that he *really* has the potential to do better
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 12:12   #13
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

1) Talk to him after class. Tell him about it, be frank.

2) Give him a copy of something very well written.

3) Perhaps you could guide him when he writes a paper, that you ask him to email you his paper as he progresses with it, and that you give him feedback several times instead of just one.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 12:35   #14
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Is the written work he has submitted all been coursework? Has he done any timed essays?

My undergrad essays were generally terrible, despite the fact I was generally the most active participant in classroom discussions. I just lacked (still do) the time management and motivational skills to actually approach the task in an appropriate manner. 95% of my essays were written a few hours before they were due in (or weeks later in some cases) with precious reference to source materials and so on.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 13:03   #15
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Tell him to structurize his essay's, tell him to find/make a suitable structure for that kinda texts up front and memorize it
and be honest about how serious it is

- What's the problem
- Why is it a problem
- What are the possible consequences (Incase of Positive and negative, do em seperatly)
- What are the causes

- What can be done against it (one thing at a time)
- Why is that measure needed
- Which conditions have to be met (which arn't met, how can they be met, and what if they ain't.. etc)
- How is that measure applied
- How can the proces be controlled/checked
- What are the effects of it/results
- small conclusion

- What can be done against it (2)
- Why.. (2) etc

- Conclusion


tell him to make his lines as 'simple' as possible, if he's got alot to say.. do it in seperate lines
Write about one thing at a time, don't mix arguments or subjects (except in the conclusion)
Sort your arguments
And do it in paragraphs
And if it's a full essay, tell him to make an intro etc

i'm just giving an example of a basic text structure that I just made up
Their alot of texts structures available and if you follow such a structure essay's basicly write themselfs
He should basicly find a suitable one himself, but you could give an example like this one
If he does that, he'll proberbly do fine
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Last edited by Alessio; 19 Feb 2006 at 13:09.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 14:57   #16
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Is the written work he has submitted all been coursework? Has he done any timed essays?

My undergrad essays were generally terrible, despite the fact I was generally the most active participant in classroom discussions. I just lacked (still do) the time management and motivational skills to actually approach the task in an appropriate manner. 95% of my essays were written a few hours before they were due in (or weeks later in some cases) with precious reference to source materials and so on.
If it's anything like the Natural Sciences Tripos, then Supervision work doesn't count to the grade at all - it's used exclusively as a teaching, rather than examination, method.

The two options are, of course, excessive laziness (although if the description is the whole truth, then this may be unlikely - whilst off the cuff essays from people who have a firm grasp of written english may prove to be heavy going at some points, they still tend to have more than occasional flashes of eloquence) or simply poor english skills.

Nobody wants to fail (excluding a self-depreciation drive) and if you tell him that you are not convinced of his ability to get himself across in an exam context then he may perk up somewhat - if he doesn't, then it's likely to be laziness. If he does, then you've got a clear direction of teaching.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 16:33   #17
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
so how do i solve the problem?
I don't mean to be rude but I am unsure of what the exact problem is? Is it that you are somehow worried about helping one of your students by telling him what they are doing wrong or is it that you are unsure about what kind of help he requires?

The simplest way of helping him improve his essays is if you give him some of the essays written by the people who do know what they are doing. Tell him he needs to structure his essays more like them.

When I applied for my first proper job I looked at somebody else's CV and cover letter and based what I wrote around that. My friends didn't hesitate to tell me if I had made even a tiny mistake because it could affect the chance of getting the job I wanted.

Now I am writing my PhD thesis I am copying the structure and language usage of other papers/thesis that I have read. If a chapter wasn't good enough my supervisor would tell me immediately and certainly wouldn't let me submit it.

Essays for exams are similar, you cannot let somebody go into an exam without knowing what is expected and what the examiner is looking for. Give him some properly written essays, if he is intelligent as you say he will have no problem adapting them to incorporate his own ideas.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 23:09   #18
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

I understand this. Obviously I don't teach undergraduates, but I have boys who will contribute and have good ideas and arguments to put forward verbally, but when it comes to written work they simply are terrible.

Whether it's writing, or just lack of articulation, or awful structure in their work.

There isn't much you can do. Luckily at the age I have, I have managed to speak to a few of the parents about it.

It's something you need to get when they're young. They need to read and write more.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 23:20   #19
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

I'm worried that may be the truth and it's too late

he's a state school boy and the one definate good thing you can say about public and independant schools is that you can guarentee they teach every student the basics.

I don't believe that such schools make people more intelligent but I do see evidence of their ability to at least teach students structure and ordered thought.
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Unread 19 Feb 2006, 23:45   #20
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

chances are he just doesn't spend much time on his homework

edit: thanks for calling this 'idiotic' Yahwe. of course there is some huge mystery behind this and there is no chance that this kid is just lazy and/or doesn't care about what you are trying to teach him unless he's in class already and has nothing better to do than open his mouth every once in a while.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 00:30   #21
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
3) Perhaps you could guide him when he writes a paper, that you ask him to email you his paper as he progresses with it, and that you give him feedback several times instead of just one.
This is a good one, because it would nip the problem of a lazy, rather than unskilled person, or badly time managed person in the bud....
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:00   #22
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

He might be dyslexic. Dyslexics find it extremly difficult to express them selfs on paper whilst doing well auraly.

If you think their is such a difference in his work you should really approch the kid directly. Have a scout around first to see what facilitys are available where you work to help people with dyslexia. Give him some options about taking a test and tell him what help he will get if he is dyslexic. That puts the ball in his court. But the kid should at leaste know his options.

Being dyslexic my self im glad i had good teachers at school who picked it up and were able to help me
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:08   #23
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

it's good advice but he's not a school boy he's a cambridge undergraduate.

(i am also dyslexic btw so I do sympathise. but this is different)
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 09:21   #24
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
he's a state school boy and the one definate good thing you can say about public and independant schools is that you can guarentee they teach every student the basics.
Oh, you'd be surprised.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 13:26   #25
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
There isn't much you can do. Luckily at the age I have, I have managed to speak to a few of the parents about it.

It's something you need to get when they're young. They need to read and write more.
I genuinelly find this disturbing from someone who's teaching at high school level.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 16:56   #26
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I genuinelly find this disturbing from someone who's teaching at high school level.
I find it disturbing.

Some of the year 11 boys (that's GCSE year, where they're turning 16) have appalling handwriting and articulation on the paper.

But what can I do? I can't ask the parents to read with them at night - they're too old. I can tell them to read and write more, but they simply won't do it.

There really isn't much you can do for them by that age. They need to get a bit older, realise it's a problem and deal with it themselves.

For the most part, their writing skills are fine. But there are one or two exceptions.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 19:46   #27
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

It's a ploy to get the attention of the authority figure he has a man-crush on.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 00:35   #28
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

I wonder if my writing skills were poor Yahwe....
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 03:42   #29
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

why wonder?
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 06:55   #30
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

In all honesty I have consistently underachieved from day one, and from day one I have consistently been drawn aside and told that although I may be capable I need to work on 'x'. This has achieved nothing; it seems to me a comfortable way for both parties to accept the situation while debasing both the course and the institution that provides that course. Appeasing a student's ego while insisting they aim to become a 'better student' is a surefire way to confuse that student regarding the goals of their education.

The tutors I have respected in the past are those that have been honest with me and supported that honesty with a strict attention to the details of the problem. Perhaps if I had such a problem writing coherently I might be encouraged if the marking of my assignments concentrated on this weakness. Support should be offered in sincerity of course, though I suspect a reaction may have to be prompted.

Education spiel merely sparks despondency and I don't think it melodramatic to say that at times the approach that tutors have taken toward me has succeeded only in making me feel like a statistic. Not that I blame them, it's just hard to respect advice when the person doling it out could be reading a familiar speech to me. You have an opportunity in that you're not (as I understand) a cloistered academic but have experience of applying yourself in the world at large. I would certainly feel slightly more inspired at the moment if I knew that my education did not exist entirely for its own entertainment*.



*point and laugh at the philosophy student
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 08:44   #31
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Whilst i understand that it isnt your job to teach your student how to write, i've alwys found the following essay structure (which was taught to me in English Literature in Year 11 & 12 at school) is at the very least a great place to start. If you arent looking for a solution to this problem, move onto the next post now .

Introduction:
- A General opening statement about the topic
- Rephrasing the question; whilst ensuring that you still answer the question, but rephrasing you can then place special emphasis on areas that you feel confident about - it has the added bonus of being able to communicate with the examiner what question you are answering etc. Do not fall into the trap of not answering the specified question!
- Define the key part(s) of the question - this is especially pertinent in Economics where clear definitions are important.
- Forshadow the main topics of discussion - these will form the ideas for your body paragraphs.
- Thesis statement; the "argument" which you are trying to prove/disprove etc.

Paragraph 1
- Introductory sentence similar to intro
- Argument (what is the point you are trying to make, the item foreshadowed in the Introduction)
- Explanation (if its not immediately clear, but with Economics this is important)
- Evidence; perhaps the most important area is to prove what you are talking about using references from the text (in Lit) or from textbooks, original sources or data, etc etc.
- Linking sentence back to the Thesis; this is important as it makes it clear how the area where you are looking at is actually relevent to answering/supporting et al your essay's argument. It makes the essay flow nicely and acts as a backup to ensure that whatever you are saying is relevent (examiners hate people who prattle on and write everything they know in the hope that something in there answers the question).

Para 2 through to how many points you have follow the same structure.

Conclusion
- re-state the question that you answered, ideally altered a little in order to show development through the essay (ie, if your argument was "All roses are red" and you have 6 points that say this is true, but one point that gives doubt, then say "Roses are mostly red" etc.
- a Summary of your main points (similar to the foreshadow from intro)
- A personal thought or observation is usually a nice way to finish.


Interestingly, at uni in a legal unit i was introduced to a different way of "essay" writing. It was called a "Four Step Process" and went as follows;

Step 1:
Identify the area of law - usually just the one or two sentences required to clarify from the question.

Step 2:
Outline all the theory for the relevent section of law. Ie, if it was Negligence then you'd have to look at Duty of Care, Standard of Care (and one other that i've forgotten! how naughty of me), plus all their sub-sections and examples of case law which apply (like IRC v Hincy as an example of the Literal rule of Statutory interpretation).

Step 3:
Apply the Theory to the Question. (Usually the question would give a story to which you would need to apply step 2 to. Most of the time a large majority of the story was satasfied by the theory, but there would be areas that werent as clear and these points are important).

Step 4:
Reach a conclusion - speculate as to the likelihood of the success or otherwise of the defendent etc in the areas where there is unclarity from step 3.

For example, a story that i remember from an exam two years ago went along the lines of the following. There is a statute; "Use of Mobile Phones Act 2004" (fictional) which states that no-one is to "talk on a mobile phone whilst driving a motor vehicle". The story says that a chap who is riding his bicycle is listening to girlfriend prattle on is arrested for breaching this act.

Step 1 would identify the area of law as statutory interpretation

Step 2 would say that there are three types of statutory interpretation; Literal, golden rule and liberal interpretation. Plus cases, proof etc.

Step 3 would be fun. You would be able to talk about the literal interpretation would be (ie, he isnt talking on his phone, he is merely listening) and thus should not have been arrested, or apply Golden Rule (clearly the statute (given its name) meant that talking was the same as listening and then should be arrested, or the Liberal interpretation could be that having possesion of the phone would be a breach etc. Then you'd go on to argue whether a bicycle was a motor vehicle or not.

Step 4: Give a reccomendation. I said that the chap was highly likely (in a legal context you cant be certain untill after it has gone to court etc) to be in breach of the statute as by using golden rule interpretation he is using his mobile phone, and that bicycles are considered to be motor vehicles (i was alone in my class for arguing that, most people said it wouldnt as they though bicycles were not motor vehicles. i'm pretty sure that they are in a legal context). Anyway, story over.

In the real world, though, i've found a combination of the two for my Economics classes to me most useful. The 4 step process lends itself to report writing (to an extent, obviously), and the true English Lit essay style is too strict for use in economics, so i've found that a hybrid is the most useful. But that's another story.

Yahwe, best of luck for helping your student.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 11:19   #32
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

you should have told him sooner, but if he really is bright then 3 months is plenty of time for him to learn how to do it right.

you need to tell him that he must apply himself to learning this new skill or he will fail, be reasonably blunt about it as he has probably had people telling him how wonderfully clever he is and that he will grow up to be a doctor one day because he will have stood out amoung the other students in the comprehensive school, he wont have had to try to excel amoung the average and may not be used to it.

dont think about hurting or offending him, you will essentially be doing to boy a favour.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 15:12   #33
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
why wonder?
That must mean it's good... well at least better than the boy you're talking about.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 15:57   #34
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I understand this. Obviously I don't teach undergraduates, but I have boys who will contribute and have good ideas and arguments to put forward verbally, but when it comes to written work they simply are terrible.

Whether it's writing, or just lack of articulation, or awful structure in their work.

There isn't much you can do. Luckily at the age I have, I have managed to speak to a few of the parents about it.

It's something you need to get when they're young. They need to read and write more.
I have/had this. Come speaking I think im good, but where I lacked was putting down my words in paper. My education at school was quite shite in all fairness (Classes of 40 etc) all different abilities, and in general im not good on writing.

If I was in his position and you yahwe came up to me and said, your really good in tutorials but your shite in writing it would me make me nervous. I would then be more conscious about what I say (because you are obviously taking note and I would watch what I write which would destroy the escence of my thought process) You dont want to kill his creativity you want to enrich him.

One way to do this is what happened in a tutorial with my lecturer. I sat down with her to review my essay and she did criticism but with praise. "You write like a journalist" however academic work is different, she didnt tell me I was writing badly on the contrary she praised my writing and said she enjoyed reading it but she then wrote down about two pages of how to write an essay.

I know its stupid/dumb but this is my basics to every essay its sits on my noticeboard on my desk and tells me how to write an essay, basics through to referencing and also basic english that I **** up "Have and of" etc etc. There and Their. I dont think im dumb. I think I didnt have as good a start as other people in society.

Remember the kids smart, seeing as hes smart he will accept constructive criticism but dont destroy him so much that he falls apart and loses whats great about him.

thanks

love

some dumb brummie who went to state school
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 16:20   #35
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Whilst i understand that it isnt your job to teach your student how to write, i've alwys found the following essay structure (which was taught to me in English Literature in Year 11 & 12 at school) is at the very least a great place to start(...
To be honest, I think that if you write by consciously following some essay schemata then youre almost certainly a poor writer (similarly, if you need to consciously apply rules of formal grammer when constructing sentences rather than just 'knowing' by intuition what is natural, you have a poor grasp of language). Being able to write is something you have to get a feel for, and I think this is best done by reading/studying lots of well written essays/books, rather than trying to be taught as such.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 17:54   #36
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

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Originally Posted by pig
I have/had this. Come speaking I think im good, but where I lacked was putting down my words in paper. My education at school was quite shite in all fairness (Classes of 40 etc) all different abilities, and in general im not good on writing.

If I was in his position and you yahwe came up to me and said, your really good in tutorials but your shite in writing it would me make me nervous. I would then be more conscious about what I say (because you are obviously taking note and I would watch what I write which would destroy the escence of my thought process) You dont want to kill his creativity you want to enrich him.

One way to do this is what happened in a tutorial with my lecturer. I sat down with her to review my essay and she did criticism but with praise. "You write like a journalist" however academic work is different, she didnt tell me I was writing badly on the contrary she praised my writing and said she enjoyed reading it but she then wrote down about two pages of how to write an essay.

I know its stupid/dumb but this is my basics to every essay its sits on my noticeboard on my desk and tells me how to write an essay, basics through to referencing and also basic english that I **** up "Have and of" etc etc. There and Their. I dont think im dumb. I think I didnt have as good a start as other people in society.

Remember the kids smart, seeing as hes smart he will accept constructive criticism but dont destroy him so much that he falls apart and loses whats great about him.

thanks

love

some dumb brummie who went to state school
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 19:24   #37
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Being able to write is something you have to get a feel for, and I think this is best done by reading/studying lots of well written essays/books, rather than trying to be taught as such.
Next you'll be telling the world that to do well at academia you have to get a feel for it too.

Not just learn the things you need to learn and then reel them off when needed.

There isn't anything wrong with having a solid essay "template" in your head when writing an essay. He isn't talking about writing a novel, nod.
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 11:40   #38
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Re: Education as opposed to innate intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
To be honest, I think that if you write by consciously following some essay schemata then youre almost certainly a poor writer
I wouldnt be so quick to judge, quite frankly. I've found that by following this general structure it benefits me as i know what i want to be writing about when, whilst not forgetting to include anything (such as evidence or checking for relevence) - this means that in an exam i dont need to waste time writing a plan before jumping right in as my introduction is my plan. It means i dont waste time continuously re-checking what i have written as i know what i wrote where. It also has added bonuses for those who are marking my work as they know what to look for where, and give marks appropriately. It is clearly better than having absolutely no form or structure to my work as that makes assigning marks harder for the examiner which isnt the smartest thing to do. Finally, by following a set structure doesnt detract from the content which is what you should be focusing on - good writers have imaginative (and accurate) content presented in a clear and concise fashion i believe. Having a firm structure to work from detracts nothing from those goals, and indeed can strengthen a piece with little or no additional effort, which results in superior grades which is kinda the point.

Also, keep in mind that the student that Yahwe was describing sounded intelligent, merely lacking the will or the skills to write in a suitable fashion - a perfect candiate for being taught good essay structure as all the imagination and content is there, only the form needs addressing (it seems).



Yahwe: any progress?
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