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Unread 8 May 2007, 12:06   #51
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Sheva has scored a decent amount of goals considering how he started.
What?

From 41 starts and 10 sub appearances he's scored 14 goals. Only 4 in the premiership.

Statistics are here for you to see who he has actually scored against.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 12:12   #52
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

14 goals is something you can build on. When a mis-firing striker scores 14 goals for Chelsea, then I'm hopeful.

Look at our recent recoard. Sutton, Kesman, Casaraghi, Mutu. He certainly isn't the worst striker we've ever had.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 12:23   #53
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
14 goals is something you can build on. When a mis-firing striker scores 14 goals for Chelsea, then I'm hopeful.

Look at our recent recoard. Sutton, Kesman, Casaraghi, Mutu. He certainly isn't the worst striker we've ever had.
Spending £30m on a player who scores 4 goals in 22 games (and 8 sub appearances) 2 of which were against the mighty teams of Watford and Shef Utd, isn't a good investment.
3 goals in Europe, 3 goals in the FA Cup (1 each against Forest and Norwich), and 3 in the League cup (2 against Wycombe(!)) just shows that you haven't had a decent return.

There's no way you can claim he's had an "ok" season. He's been a flop. And at £30m he's been the biggest flop the world has ever seen.
Next season he may prove us wrong, but his first season in the premiership has left a lot to be desired.
I would suggest that buying a striker from a League 1 side for £500,000 would probably get you a similar goal return in a team like Chelsea anyway.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 12:30   #54
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
14 goals is something you can build on. When a mis-firing striker scores 14 goals for Chelsea, then I'm hopeful.

Look at our recent recoard. Sutton, Kesman, Casaraghi, Mutu. He certainly isn't the worst striker we've ever had.
Sutton was at Chelsea for only a season (1999/2000). Pierluigi Casiraghi (1998) was luckless and had his career ended with a cruciate ligament injury after only ten games. Kezman had 112 goals in 136 games for PSV, so no-one really saw his failure coming (did you know that Chelsea made a profit on him?).

Mutu was a superb forward who was bailed on by Chelsea when many other clubs would have stuck by their man - just look at Arsenal's treatment of Merson and Adams. The simple truth was that they wanted rid of him, which was probably a mistake given his success with Fiorentina and Romania. Typical Ranieri signing though, didn't suit Mourinho at all.


Back to my point: Shevchenko cost £30m and came to the club as a proven striker. None of the others did. Shevchenko scored more than a goal every two games against notoriously tough Italian defences - more than 25 goals a season for his last 3 seasons. He had to produce, and he failed.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 12:33   #55
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Spending £30m on a player who scores 4 goals in 22 games (and 8 sub appearances) 2 of which were against the mighty teams of Watford and Shef Utd, isn't a good investment.
3 goals in Europe, 3 goals in the FA Cup (1 each against Forest and Norwich), and 3 in the League cup (2 against Wycombe(!)) just shows that you haven't had a decent return.
I didn't say it was a good investment, but Chelsea have seen far worse in recent years. the four strikers I named didn't get that many between them, so this could have been far worse.

Quote:
There's no way you can claim he's had an "ok" season. He's been a flop.
He has been a flop when you think what was expected of him. But as the season has gone on he has been getting better and we'll se how it goes next year, if he he remains. If you look at Drogba, everyone was slagging him off until this season when he finaled adapted to the game and has been invaluable. true Sheva doesn't have time on his side but then again he is a world-class striker.

[quote]And at £30m he's been the biggest flop the world has ever seen.[quote]

I think Veron might have something to say about that.

Quote:
Next season he may prove us wrong, but his first season in the premiership has left a lot to be desired.
I would suggest that buying a striker from a League 1 side for £500,000 would probably get you a similar goal return in a team like Chelsea anyway.
Except that that striker is probably at the top of his game and it can only go downhill. I still believe Shva has the potential to set the Premiership alight.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 12:38   #56
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

My opinion of Chelsea has improved dramatically over the course of this season, particularly the latter half, which seems to have drawn out all the pathetic hatred and criticism mostly from followers of other successful clubs. I am surprised to find the posters on this forum have jumped on the Chelsea hate brigade bandwagon and would say the following on the matter;

Since the arrival of Mourinho at Stamford Bridge, Chelsea have raised the bar for English football. Even if they should finish this season with only the League Cup to their name, they deserve credit for genuinely competing in all four competitions; something that I cannot recall any team earnestly attempting in my lifetime. All this was of course enabled by Abramovich's cash injection, but then the Premiership has never been won by a team without a robust budget.

While it is true that Abramovich has stumped up a number of absolutely ridiculous fees to build their squad, I have little sympathy for those clubs whom this transfer policy has chiefly disadvantaged; namely those who in the past have relied on their status as "big clubs" to bully others and tempt their talent into moving. What a shame.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 12:47   #57
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Sutton was at Chelsea for only a season (1999/2000).
So has Sheva.

Pierluigi Casiraghi (1998) was luckless and had his career ended with a cruciate ligament injury after only ten games.[quote]

I believe it was 11 and he only scored one goal.

Quote:
Kezman had 112 goals in 136 games for PSV, so no-one really saw his failure coming (did you know that Chelsea made a profit on him?).
No-one saw this with Sheva, but he still did a lot better than Kesman.

Quote:
Mutu was a superb forward who was bailed on by Chelsea when many other clubs would have stuck by their man - just look at Arsenal's treatment of Merson and Adams. The simple truth was that they wanted rid of him, which was probably a mistake given his success with Fiorentina and Romania. Typical Ranieri signing though, didn't suit Mourinho at all.
Well that's not really a footballing issue and I can't really remember the ins and outs of the situavion to argue about it.

Quote:
Back to my point: Shevchenko cost £30m and came to the club as a proven striker. None of the others did. Shevchenko scored more than a goal every two games against notoriously tough Italian defences - more than 25 goals a season for his last 3 seasons. He had to produce, and he failed.
Kesman didn't? Sutton didn't? Mutu didn't?

Shevchenko has been playing Italian football for seven years, it's a very different league. He has not come close to what people expected but that might all change next season. Perhaps it won't, perhaps he leaved in the summer and is declared a flop. But as long as he is a Chelsea player he still has the potential to do wonderful things.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 13:06   #58
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
So has Sheva.
I'll be more explicit: Sutton is a deep-lying striker who relies on his other teammates to put him in situations to create or score goals. It's why he was so good alongside Shearer as part of the Premiership-winning Blackburn side. At Chelsea he was expected to fit into a completely different style of play - his position just didn't exist. The difference with Shevchenko is that the position of central striker will always exist - take ball on shoulder of defender, put in net, rinse and repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I believe it was 11 and he only scored one goal.
No, you'll find that it was ten games. As for the slow start, I have no problem at all with that - a certain Thierry Henry failed to score for his first eight games, but ended the season with 31 goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
No-one saw this with Sheva, but he still did a lot better than Kesman.
Both were flops, Shevchenko a worse flop because of his price-tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Well that's not really a footballing issue and I can't really remember the ins and outs of the situavion to argue about it.
That's a bit disappointing - I remember it pretty clearly. But here's an except from Wikipedia to jog your memory.

Quote:
Chelsea paid Parma €22.4 million in 2003 for Mutu's transfer as part of new owner Roman Abramovich's spending spree, which made him the most expensive Romanian football player. Four goals in three matches, including two in a 4-2 victory over London rivals Tottenham Hotspur, immediately endeared him to the Stamford Bridge faithful, but the goals dried up as the season progressed. In the 2004/05 season, Mutu had a difficult relationship with the club's new manager José Mourinho, each accusing the other of lying about whether the player was injured for a World Cup qualifying match against the Czech Republic. In September 2004 he failed a drugs test for cocaine, and he was sacked on October 29, 2004. He also received a 7-month ban and a £20,000 fine from The Football Association; the ban ended on 18 May 2005.
You claim that it wasn't a footballing issue. I disagree. He was an important football player for the club who as a member of the first team, affected how the team played its football. The decision to sack him meant that Chelsea automatically lost about £8m on a potential re-sale, as well as not having him around for the 2005/06 season. He didn't have to go - just look at how Paul Merson was treated when he confessed his problems. The FA would have sent him into rehabilitation as opposed to banning him as a result of the Chelsea sacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Kesman didn't? Sutton didn't? Mutu didn't?

Shevchenko has been playing Italian football for seven years, it's a very different league. He has not come close to what people expected but that might all change next season. Perhaps it won't, perhaps he leaved in the summer and is declared a flop. But as long as he is a Chelsea player he still has the potential to do wonderful things.
It's a different league but even harder to score. As I referred to with Henry earlier, I have no problem with a striker taking some time to bed in. It's when they never start producing that I criticise them.

Oh and any player has the potential to do wonderful things - just ask the Romford Pele.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 13:17   #59
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

More of the great Romford Pele:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9BuiO9x69Y
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Unread 8 May 2007, 14:36   #60
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

The thing with Chelsea if you are an attacking player you are either a wide player, or a hard working target man.

Shevchenko is neither. Play him in a proper 4-4-2 with wide men he'll run riot.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 14:55   #61
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The thing with Chelsea if you are an attacking player you are either a wide player, or a hard working target man.

Shevchenko is neither. Play him in a proper 4-4-2 with wide men he'll run riot.
But that might mean Chelsea will play attacking, free flowing football. That isn't going to happen is it?
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Unread 8 May 2007, 17:59   #62
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
But that might mean Chelsea will play attacking, free flowing football. That isn't going to happen is it?
No. At no point since Mourinho came in have Chelsea played flowing, attacking football. They were playing with a turgid 4-4-2 diamond and wasting their wingers when they won two titles.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 19:30   #63
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I always like arguments about how people are glory-hunters or they're just in it for the trophies or they're not real fans because they weren't born near the club. Like watching some dire club play dire football in a dire league in a dire ground just because you happened to be born near them is an accomplishment you should put on your CV or something.


Support your local team!!!



PS Excellent use of the word "turgid" by phang there.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 19:58   #64
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

there's only a handful of people on this forums who understand that supporting a footballteam isn't about seeing them win as often as possible.

and even fewer actually visit their club.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 20:16   #65
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I agree with what KoeN has said.

Was that a snide remark towards me JBG?
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Unread 8 May 2007, 21:07   #66
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
there's only a handful of people on this forums who understand that supporting a footballteam isn't about seeing them win as often as possible.

and even fewer actually visit their club.
Supporting a football club is an objectively meaningless personal aesthetic desire. It isn't about anything except the value you choose to assign it. You could choose to assign the same value to a myriad of other things. Claiming you have to understand something deeper than this about how supporting football teams works is just being delusional.

And no pig, it wasn't aimed at you personally.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 21:10   #67
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Was that a snide remark towards me JBG?
I think me and Nod might be included here.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 22:09   #68
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I'd rather have a single day out at the football with people I've been going with for years than win 20 Premiership titles watching at home on Sky. I detest all that "real fan" crap but people who just watch on TV and go to Old Trafford once a season really do miss so much of the "experience".
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Unread 8 May 2007, 22:41   #69
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I always like arguments about how people are glory-hunters or they're just in it for the trophies or they're not real fans because they weren't born near the club. Like watching some dire club play dire football in a dire league in a dire ground just because you happened to be born near them is an accomplishment you should put on your CV or something.


Support your local team!!!.
Play up Pompey.

I don't really care if there are United fans from Cornwall or whatever. Everyone chooses their club for their own reasons. Sometimes supporting teams just runs in the family. I think there are a lot of fans who start off supporting big clubs then watch their local side, enjoy it more and actually choose to support them instead.

I don't think supporting your local team is a badge of honour as such apart from the fact that you are proud from where you come from (much like supporting your national team), but what I DO think is that we get more out of going to football matches and we care about the way football is run because there are 92 plus clubs with fans who are in the same boat as us who want a fair shot at being the best.

What i think fans of local clubs hate the most are wankers who are first in the queue to wind you up when you've never been to a game, then whenever you do their team say they don't really care because it's only football. Even so, those who support their local side and stick to them whatever are those I respect the most in the football - they really do love their team and understand the position of other clubs very well because one day they could be there too or at least want to. We're no better than those not from our town, but really it all boils down to how committed you are and United have committed fans just like S****horpe, for example.

I'll never forget Rotherham fans when we won the div 1 title. They supported their team and wound us up (in a friendly way, although one complete prick from our side started throwing coins at them) 100% for 90 minutes but once we lifted the title they were congratulating us straight away, stayed behind and applauded us as we lifted the trophy and wished us luck for the prem. You can't ever have a better time watching football when that happens, shaking hands across the divide, that is what I call real support. I had a ****ing great time.
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Unread 10 May 2007, 22:37   #70
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'll be more explicit: Sutton is a deep-lying striker who relies on his other teammates to put him in situations to create or score goals. It's why he was so good alongside Shearer as part of the Premiership-winning Blackburn side. At Chelsea he was expected to fit into a completely different style of play - his position just didn't exist. The difference with Shevchenko is that the position of central striker will always exist - take ball on shoulder of defender, put in net, rinse and repeat.
that particular Chelsea squad had Zola, Poyet, Di Metteo, Deschamps, and Petrescu. It wasn't exactly bereft of quality players to give him chances. I believe if he had scored the two sitters he missed in the first game, he would have been a hero except an expensive flop who fell on his arse.

Shevchenko has been playing for the same team for seven years. that is a long time to move to another country and immediatly settle in. Chelsea now play a very defensive game. If they were more flowing it's possible Shevchano would play far better. But maybe he just can't adapt like Veron.

Quote:
No, you'll find that it was ten games. As for the slow start, I have no problem at all with that - a certain Thierry Henry failed to score for his first eight games, but ended the season with 31 goals.
Well wiki says 10 games and 26 goals, so I don't know where those figures have come from. Different players take different amounts of time to adapt. Maybe he never will, but I'm not willing to write him off just yet.

Quote:
Both were flops, Shevchenko a worse flop because of his price-tag.
Pound for pound, Shevchenko scored more goals.

Quote:
That's a bit disappointing - I remember it pretty clearly. But here's an except from Wikipedia to jog your memory.

You claim that it wasn't a footballing issue. I disagree. He was an important football player for the club who as a member of the first team, affected how the team played its football. The decision to sack him meant that Chelsea automatically lost about £8m on a potential re-sale, as well as not having him around for the 2005/06 season. He didn't have to go - just look at how Paul Merson was treated when he confessed his problems. The FA would have sent him into rehabilitation as opposed to banning him as a result of the Chelsea sacking.
It really depends on what you mean by footballing issue. Having Nicholas Anelka in your squad might get you some goals, but if he's messing up the rest of the squad is it worth keeping him?

He was a brand-new player who didn't get on with the new manager. to keep him may have been detrimental the the rest of the squad and could have potentially have cost them the title.

Paul Merson had been with Arsenal for nearly 10 years so it's an entirely different set of circumstances. If it had been some new player who just flew over then the situation would have been completely different. to get rid of him would have had a worse impact than keeping him, I'm not sure if the same could be said about Mutu.

Quote:
It's a different league but even harder to score. As I referred to with Henry earlier, I have no problem with a striker taking some time to bed in. It's when they never start producing that I criticise them.
Drogba wasn't too impressive in his first two seasons, but you wouldn't now say it would have been better for Chelsea to cut their losses. I say give him another chance, although it does depend on who they bring in in the summer.

I also wanted Kesman to stay as I liked him, though not Sutton. Not one bit.

Quote:
Oh and any player has the potential to do wonderful things - just ask the Romford Pele.
If he finds his form again he can do that in every game.
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Unread 14 May 2007, 01:13   #71
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I would like some recognition for my storming comeback in the GD fantasy football league to steal second on the last day of the season.
I'd like to congratulate myself on coming mid-table despite not having made any changes since the end of January.
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Unread 14 May 2007, 08:19   #72
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'd like to congratulate myself on coming mid-table despite not having made any changes since the end of January.
Did you use your 3 substitutes up at the beginning of the season too?
(are we talking about the metro one? apart from a couple of bad choices at defence I did pretty well )
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Unread 14 May 2007, 08:41   #73
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Did you use your 3 substitutes up at the beginning of the season too?
(are we talking about the metro one? apart from a couple of bad choices at defence I did pretty well )
I used my wildcard at the start of the season if that's what you mean - we're talking about the FA Premier League one which triumphs through not being shit. The Metro one....I don't even know how to login anymore.
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Unread 14 May 2007, 09:10   #74
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

I won \o/
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Unread 14 May 2007, 11:34   #75
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

It kept sending me e-mails telling me how my team was.
I did ok, and only 3-4 of my team let me down.
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Unread 14 May 2007, 15:07   #76
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

After last seasons good finish (I was 3rd?), I think this season wasnt that good. Last time I checked I was 2nd to the bottom. That was in january.. okey, I havent been very active
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Unread 14 May 2007, 17:08   #77
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Re: [Football]Well it's all over

pretty sure that i didn't make a single change whatsoever all season and am reasonably impressed by my score
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