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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:09   #1
Ste
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The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Ok, on another forum* there is a religious debate going on and someone has just posted links that he claims "prove" that there is life after death...

I really don't know what to make of it. It seems to be some crackpot writings about conspiracy theories and quantum physics...

I thought GD might be able to explain it to me, and indulge in an interesting discussion about it at the same time as I'm quite confused about it.

Link to page 1 of 4 (links to other pages are at the bottom of the page)

I thought I'd look around to see if there was anything else that would 'explain' but all I found was this on a Crank site




*no not PB, there is a religion debate there but it's not as advanced as this one on another another forum.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:30   #2
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Paging Jakiri to thread 193446.


From a read through Part 1 it doesn't look well-founded, but I'll let a physicist expose it all.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:34   #3
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

It's bollocks. Standard misdirection, in both what it says and how it says it.

It continually claims that we have evidence - but it never says what it is. It claims that we have experiments to find it - and doesn't say what they are. It claims it has supporters - but never gives more than vague quotes as to what they said. It claims that we have the mathematics to support their claims - but not a single mathematical statement appears.

The one "experimental result" that is quoted is one that is described without methodology, control or context, and at face value is something that can anyone can easily do utterly cold on any audience, simply because people choose to give vague statements greater meanings which can be built upon, or because the brain is designed to make faces or patterns out of the loosest information.

What it does go in to detail on is why, once they have evidence, they're more likely to be correct, and the amazing histories of the people who it claims support or studied these supposed phenomena, although even if these are true, more learned people than they have been more incorrect before. As in mathematics, without the argument, the source is meaningless - argument from authority is a logical fallacy for a reason.

They say that this information is "suppressed" - although they do not say by whom, or how. They mention "big names" - Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman - who have only the most passing of tangential relationships to what is being said, in order to give what is said more weight. They use false examples, like the Flat Earth one, to generalise from.

Furthermore, they seem to engage in deliberate obfuscation, with a good example being the apparant inability to break up the walls of text which would, if they had anything to say, contain their main arguments.

Balls, the lot of it.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 3 Jan 2007 at 00:40.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:41   #4
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

For future reference, a site is guaranteed to be quackery if they start out with how the information has been suppressed by some conspiracy, doubly so if it's a faceless conspiracy that makes no sense. Leaving aside why atheists (which, let us not forget, are synonymous with Scientific Conspiracy) would suppress anything like this, why would religion?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:43   #5
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

From a none technical view, it really is hard to argue wrather there is life after death or not. The only fact is that people have been revived after their hearts stopped beating. That raises the question of exactly where were these people during the time that they were "dead"? I think thats the heart of the issue really. The whole discussion about life after death as a whole always carries over into a religious discussion.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:44   #6
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

I dont think it is possible to die.

Think about it, everytime you are close to death, something seems to happen which stops you from dying.....
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:45   #7
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

It also claims that Einstein's Relativity was "a mistake" when compared to Newton's. It suggests that the incompatability between it and the Standard Model is anything but an artifact of the way they have been modelled. God. Every time I glance at the site, I'm reminded of more nonsense that they claim.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:46   #8
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
From a none technical view, it really is hard to argue wrather there is life after death or not.
There is no evidence for life after death.

ARGUMENT OVER!
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:50   #9
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Paging a random God -fanboy to the threat to come with the common circular logic claim of "there is no evidence of there not being life after death".
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:53   #10
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Where is the evidence that you can die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
There is no evidence for life after death.

ARGUMENT OVER!
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:54   #11
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Where is the evidence that you can die?
Like this, text after quote.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:55   #12
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I dont think it is possible to die.

Think about it, everytime you are close to death, something seems to happen which stops you from dying.....
That's interestingly similar to what i kind of think...
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:55   #13
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Where is the evidence that you can die?
this is a low point. I really mean it. :crymeariver:


Edit: Just when you think it can't get any worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
That's interestingly similar to what i kind of think...
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:56   #14
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

BTW - thanks Mark for having a read through it.

All I could spot was random quotes from university graduates and "omg it's all a big conspiracy" stuff.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:57   #15
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
That's interestingly similar to what i kind of think...
That's bollocks too. Anthropic principle.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:58   #16
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

I'm not suggesting you kill yourself.

My point was, where is the evidence that you, as an individual can die?

Others may die around you, but they are not you.

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this is a low point. I really mean it. :crymeariver:
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 00:58   #17
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I'm not suggesting you kill yourself.

My point was, where is the evidence that you, as an individual can die?

Others may die around you, but they are not you.
Wrong burden of proof.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:00   #18
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Tell ya what, why don't you do a scientific experiment for us, if you commit suicide then come back to life, you can post on here and tell us if you were right.

Edit: I'm not supporting suicide btw., just throwing it out as a suggestion to end debate.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:03   #19
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Hopefully life after death is much like my reading of that site.







Brief.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:06   #20
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Incidentally ste if you want to post some counter-points or something you could question William Crooke's experiments which apparently are called repeatable by that site but were conducted at his house with selected individuals who it is impossible to verify objectively as psychics which becomes appallingly circular.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:09   #21
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Edit: Just when you think it can't get any worse.
I didn't say I agreed with him completely...
I can't be bothered to go into it now, there's no evidence for what I think, therefore it's not worth mentioning. It's just a thought and it's developing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's bollocks too. Anthropic principle.
I think you've jumped to the wrong conclusion about what i think... but that's probably because I just had to look up Anthropic principle to know what you meant
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:10   #22
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I'm not suggesting you kill yourself.

My point was, where is the evidence that you, as an individual can die?

Others may die around you, but they are not you.

Of course you can die. You just aren't likely to care about it very much when you're dead.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:12   #23
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

I dont know, Ive been lucky so far - I have almost died loads of times, yet Im still here to talk about it....

strange dont you think?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:14   #24
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I dont know, Ive been lucky so far - I have almost died loads of times, yet Im still here to talk about it....

strange dont you think?
If you can't die I think we have sufficient proof that a just god does not exist.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:16   #25
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

It is true of everyone that they do not die until they do. This is not some major philosophical breakthrough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I think you've jumped to the wrong conclusion about what i think... but that's probably because I just had to look up Anthropic principle to know what you meant
Then tell me what you do think!
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:19   #26
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

I hope for ste's sake he didn't look up the anthropic principle on wikipedia because that page is just murder.





I've always preferred to reduce things to the statement "how unsurprising that my observing of the universe is contingent on my existence within it".
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:20   #27
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

I looked. There's FAP and CRAP there.


edit.

the SAP wasn't as convincing.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:24   #28
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

It looks like you're arguing that the world revolves around you - "other people die but I am alive and the world will cease to exist if I die"
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:26   #29
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Then tell me what you do think!
Like I said in that post - it's still a thought that's formulating and because I have nothing to back it up other than "I thought about this" I don't really want to post it openly on here because it's very easily ridiculed...

EDIT and yeh i did look at the wiki page
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:28   #30
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
There is no evidence for life after death.

ARGUMENT OVER!
I'd just like to know what you think happens to people who's hearts stop beating but are then revived (as outlined in Chika's post)?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:32   #31
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I'd just like to know what you think happens to people who's hearts stop beating but are then revived (as outlined in Chika's post)?
Either their braincells deteriorate to the point where they're a vegetable or they don't.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:39   #32
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I'd just like to know what you think happens to people who's hearts stop beating but are then revived (as outlined in Chika's post)?
What happens to a car when you turn it off and then on again? Anyway, that's not the meaning of the phrase "life after death" and you know it.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 01:41   #33
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Weak Anthropic Principle

Q: Why does the universe exist?
A: Well, what else would you expect to observe?


Strong Anthropic Principle

Q: Why does the universe support life?
A: Right, so you'd be dead, then?


I've always liked that formulation. Trite explanations are wonderful things.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 03:45   #34
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I'd just like to know what you think happens to people who's hearts stop beating but are then revived (as outlined in Chika's post)?
How does your heart not beating make you dead?

You're dead when there is no brain activity (at all), so therefore you can't perform any automatic functions such as breathing or circulating blood.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 05:08   #35
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

It's impossible to prove whether there is life after death or not
The lack of proof would suggest that there isn't

but that isn't really the reason why I don't believe in life after death

I've seen people who were litterly not more then animals in their behaviour and people living in constant pain in nursing homes
It's safe to say that your brain limits your spirit, maybe to such an extend that it is the same
it's also obvious that no higher force is looking after those people

Ofcourse that doesn't has to mean their is no such thing as an afterlife,
but it did give me that impression as religion and the idea of an afterlife are highly intertwined

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
From a none technical view, it really is hard to argue wrather there is life after death or not. The only fact is that people have been revived after their hearts stopped beating. That raises the question of exactly where were these people during the time that they were "dead"? I think thats the heart of the issue really. The whole discussion about life after death as a whole always carries over into a religious discussion.
If your brain doesn't get enough oxygen it simply seizes to function, until it gets fueled again
The thing is that a brain quickly deteriorates in such a state so the chance to activate it again is very slim
and the chances of the person having mental problems afterwards is very high


Besides the failing godpart of most afterlife theories the idea of an afterlife raises the following questions:

Your body self-destructs and it get's recycled again.. Organic tissue will stay here on earth
So where would all the new souls from babies come from if they arn't organic?
Are they being created by organic beings? Is a brain a soul catching shell? It seems very far fetched

And what's the case with animals, they do think like us but according to most religions
(where the idea of an afterlife comes from) most animals have no place in the afterlife


The answers seem fairly obvious to me
Believers of an afterlife believe in speculations which are limited by our own imagination

It's possible to raise a hundred questions about the afterlife, and maybe even answer them all
you can make the universe as complicated as you want.. but that doesn't makes it more true
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 08:56   #36
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

'ste thread'
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 10:03   #37
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

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'ste thread'
Seeing as my last thread got the most activity this board has seen for the last 6 months and this one doesn't seem unpopular maybe I should post more 'ste threads'?

Or should I not bother?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 12:39   #38
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
'ste thread'
This is supposed to be a complement, right?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 12:52   #39
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste

Or should I not bother?

Yahwe only tolerates posters that meet up to his standards, anyone else (read 95%) should stop posting and learn from his highness.

I seriously believe the forums would have more active users without him and a couple of his followers. Maybe the quality would've been less according to his standards but there would've been more people still around here and more people having fun reading their posts.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 13:06   #40
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSmoke
I seriously believe the forums would have more active users without him and a couple of his followers.
There appears to be a great conspiracy of silence over who his "followers" are. Enlighten us, please?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 14:40   #41
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

I'll admit to liking Yahwe, but I'm hardly a follower of anything except pastafarianism
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 14:45   #42
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I'll admit to liking Yahwe, but I'm hardly a follower of anything except pastafarianism
Is that the offical name for the 'Lets mock tomkat Club'?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 14:45   #43
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
This is supposed to be a complement, right?
Or a compliment! Although it complements the thread nicely!



Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSmoke
I seriously believe the forums would have more active users without him and a couple of his followers.
I agree - although while I agree, I still think he's a good poster. He just needs to calm down.

As Jakiri said though - who are these followers supposed to be?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 15:02   #44
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Or a compliment! Although it complements the thread nicely!
Quite so!
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 15:10   #45
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Is that the offical name for the 'Lets mock tomkat Club'?
No, its a religion that states that the world was created by an omnipotent and omniscient flying spaghetti monster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 19:42   #46
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

I couldn't be bothered to read too much of that site. Any text that spends that long on convincing the reader that what follows is The Truth, and The Truth normally indicates bullshit.

The part I did read which basically, as far as I could tell, states there are frequencies/elements we cannot see - radio waves, atoms etc. - and so life could continue in a currently invisible frequency/whatever is interesting at least. I wouldn't rule it out.

I'm quite sure the scientific world will at some point discover something that backs up an after-life - more of a continuation of life beyond physicality and intellect - and in the knowledge that that discovery has yet to be been made I remain blissfully indifferent to rants such as this. Even if it has been made it's not really going to affect me, not now at least, so why care so much.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:41   #47
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Why are you "quite sure"?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:56   #48
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Progression. I'm no soothsayer though.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 21:42   #49
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

Progression towards random unsupported statements?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 22:14   #50
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Re: The Scientific Proof of Life After Death

No-one knew atoms existed. So my belief is that at some point someone will discover the continuation of a person's conscious, in the same way atoms continue after your body gives in. I don't believe your physicality or intellect will survive though. Yes, it's a belief in scientific progress in the same way people believe in God, Allah and Buddha.
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