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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 11:47   #1
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Alexander Litvinenko

Conspiracy theory perhaps but could putin really have ordered this? or at the very least allowed it? The thing that really confuses me though is why bother with such an overly dramatic and obvious murder? If the russians wanted him dead they could just have jacked him in the street, robbed him and 'happen' to kill him whilst doing so. But putting polonium ffs in his food! Its like something out of james bond*

I remember reading a while back when russia's oil industry was being brought under government control that putin wrote a thesis as a student which hes basically following now. Hes re-nationalising and consolidating all the big companies so they can 'match' the multi-nationals of the west. The oil was first and apparently defence has followed. It doesn't seem like a very sensible way forward.



*meant in a bad, austin powers way
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 12:24   #2
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

This is a fairly detailed account of things

I'm particularly interested in this bit:

Quote:
“Everything that is happening is fitting very neatly a particular logical chain. First, the Russian parliament passes a law in the middle of this year which allows the government, allows the president, to pursue and attack ‘extremists’ all over the world. So now it’s legal.

“Then a few days later they enacted another [law] which defines ‘extremist’. Anybody who is critical of the government falls under these broad definitions.”

Few had been more vitriolic and outrageous in their criticism of Putin and the Kremlin than Litvinenko.

“This unties the hands of the secret service because nobody can now say it’s illegal under Russian law.”
Can anyone find more information about this?
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 12:30   #3
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

I think the answer to both your questions is 'yes'. Who else would kill him and why would anyone use such an overdramatic method? I would astonished if this was a random attack by some psycho and he just happened to kill a Russian ex-spy who feared for his life.

You also ask to ask, who benefits? For the Russians, it sends out a warning to all other dissidents, particularly to Berezovsky.

Quote:
Mr Litvinenko's friend Alex Goldfarb said one of the latest addresses where radiation was found - 7 Down Street - houses the offices of Mr Berezovsky, an associate.
Seeing as his lifes goal is to remove Putin from power (and most likely regain his influence) then this may make his efforts a little more low-key.

Although it could all have been orchestrated by the enemies of Russia, he could have poisioned himself to attract international criticism of Russia. But that's just wild speculation, as is the rest of this post.
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 12:51   #4
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

They found Polonium in Boris Berezovsky's offices. I was reading that Mario Scaramella also headed an organisation which tracked dumped nuclear waste.

I thought it was a little odd he was taken out in such a dramatic fashion, and the amount of excellent PR coverage he received. I did suspect the Kremlin did it to warn others, but would they risk their international reputation like this when its relations with the European Union are already so frosty? Are they so blithely unconcerned with international opinion?

My initial thoughts are that Boris Berezovsky poisoned him to frame the Kremlin. But perhaps the Kremlin used an obvious method then tried to pin it to the two others by leaving traces of polonium in Berezovsky's office and waiting for the press to discover that Scaramella is involved in a organisation that deal with nuclear waste. I mean, it's pretty clear the Kremlin killed the dissident Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya.

I'm sure this is more interested than the new James Bond film. It's certainly better than the excrement that was Mission Impossible 3.
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 12:57   #5
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

The times article I posted earlier has some pretty good background of Scaramella and Berezovsky.

Quote:
Friends of Litvinenko believe it is ludicrous to suspect Berezovsky of harming the man who once saved him from a possible assassination attempt. “Boris owes his life to Litvinenko and would never do anything to harm him,” said Oleg Gordievsky, another KGB defector and family friend.

Friends also dismissed suggestions that Litvinenko could have harmed himself. What would he have to gain, they ask. He loved his wife and son and wanted to continue his fight against Putin.
...
Others point out that Litvinenko had made plenty of enemies beyond the Kremlin. In the late 1990s he had accused two of his bosses at the FSB of planning assassinations, and infuriated others with his claims about the FSB blowing up apartment blocks. He had also tangled with mafia gangs.

Andrei Soldatov, an expert on the Russian security services, said: “Litvinenko wasn’t an ordinary FSB agent. He worked in the department fighting organised crime. It’s a special group often accused of links with criminals.

“It’s a shadowy world. The people who poisoned him could easily have come from there.”

Had a former FSB agent, perhaps linked to Dignity and Honour, taken revenge for a personal grudge? Or is it even murkier still? Had Litvinenko been involved in some nefarious activity that caused him to suffer radiation poisoning?
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 13:22   #6
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

One of the odder things I've heard (apologies if this is duplicated in any of the links given, I've not checked them out yet) is that Litvinenko had repeatedly accused Putin of being a paedo and that was one of the reasons he was bumped off.

Imagine if Dace was a powerful dictator.
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 13:44   #7
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Not that I've read it, but apparently Litvinenko's book claims the Kremlin set up the Beslan massacre as well. I'd say that makes Litvinenko look like somewhat of a crank (unless he's right of course), but then everyone in this looks quite suspect.
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 15:21   #8
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
One of the odder things I've heard (apologies if this is duplicated in any of the links given, I've not checked them out yet) is that Litvinenko had repeatedly accused Putin of being a paedo and that was one of the reasons he was bumped off.

Imagine if Dace was a powerful dictator.
Remember that incident a few months ago when he lifted the shirt of a 5 year old boy and kissed his belly? (just google 'putin kiss boy" if not)

I didn't think much of it at the time, but alongside Dante's post...
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Unread 28 Nov 2006, 15:41   #9
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

The trouble with all this is, we have no idea if we're going off into bullshit conspiracy theories or not. I'm not sure about beslan but the apartment block bombings did seem 'odd'. I can't think of any other terrorist group that would go to the trouble of rigging up explosives in buildings to bring them down*

Amusingly i was looking at the 2003 russian election results, to see if any alternative to putin existed. The second biggest party were the commies, the third were pseudo-supremecist nationalists!!! So basically putin's actions both in terms of bumping people off in unecassarily elaborate ways and taking a weird quasi-commie-nationalist-monopolistic attitudes to trade are 'liberal'!!!!!!

The only good thing about russia are the women**


*ok ira aside, which was one small bomb. But can anyone thing of a similar incidence on a similar scale anywhere else?

** Lies obviously, they're aids ridden and with severe mental/emotional instability and an 'attitude' problem. I expect that turns dante on even more but i'll pass thankyouverymuch
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Unread 29 Nov 2006, 13:24   #10
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Heresy.

Dude, Russian girls are hot.

Apart from the shot putters.

Obviously.
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Unread 29 Nov 2006, 17:22   #11
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what a load of conspiracy nut nonsense!
So, what's your theory? He accidentally ate some radioactive substance?

I'm actually really interested what theory you think is the conspiracy theory and which one isn't!
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Unread 29 Nov 2006, 18:37   #12
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i was joking. WHICH YOU WOULD PROBABLY KNOW IF YOU SPENT MORE TIME READING HORN THREADS THAN YOU DO READING ALL THE OTHER ONES YOU SMELLY BAG!

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=193072
I can never tell if you're joking or just being shit
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Unread 29 Nov 2006, 21:41   #13
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Looks like it was smuggled in by plane...

They seem to be finding it everywhere...
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Unread 29 Nov 2006, 21:47   #14
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Gary Kasparov had better watch out
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Unread 30 Nov 2006, 06:45   #15
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Exclamation Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Looks like it was smuggled in by plane...

They seem to be finding it everywhere...
Pretty sloppy handling, imho. If you're going to use an exotic radioactive poison you don't want to leave a bread-crumb-like trail of the stuff the authorities can use to retrace your steps. :/

It could be a false trail intended to incriminate someone else I suppose, but it makes little sense to leave a false trail unless you think someone's going to come looking for it. One advantage of using Polonium-210 in the first place is that it's virtually impossible to detect--so long as no one suspects a radioactive poison. Litvinenko was (mis-)diagnosed and being treated for Thallium poisoning (Thallium is a fairly ordinary and easily obtained poison*, and has similar symptoms even though it kills via chemical reactions and not radiation) right up until about the time he died. They came very close to missing the Polonium-210 altogether and attributing his death to Thallium poisoning or to some unknown cause (and if that had happened, they would not now be looking for and finding traces of Polonium-210).

I would think if you wanted to frame someone you'd use a more conventional means of murder and more conventional types of incriminating evidence (to ensure both that the authorities would look for said evidence and that they would then find it).




*Thallium used to be the active ingredient in many rat and ant poisons (and undoubtably still is in some parts of the world).
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Unread 30 Nov 2006, 10:40   #16
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I would think if you wanted to frame someone you'd use a more conventional means of murder and more conventional types of incriminating evidence (to ensure both that the authorities would look for said evidence and that they would then find it).
Maybe that's what they want you to think.

This could be a bluff, or a double bluff - we're perhaps meant to think: "It's so obviously the Russian Government that it can't be" etc.

It could be some group who noone would ever expect so they can afford to be sloppy.

It could be some group who know that it doesn't matter if they get caught there's nothing anyone can do about it.

It could be some group thinking "lets show them how easy it is to get into the country and assassinate someone"

The law the Russians passed in the summer though makes me lean heavily towards the governmental 'conspiracy' theory. It's the one that makes the most sense at the moment.
Although it could have been a group linked to the government but not given specific orders by them...

Who knows.
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Unread 30 Nov 2006, 11:26   #17
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

It's turning into an 80s film script pretty quickly.
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Unread 30 Nov 2006, 11:43   #18
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Just found this paragraph in todays Guardian:

Quote:
Scotland Yard's newly formed counter-terrorism command, which is managing the inquiry, is refusing to describe it as a murder investigation, prompting speculation that they believe the spy may have poisoned himself.
That doesn't seem likely to me at all...


And more confusing - look at this one from a Turkish paper:

Quote:
At least 4 articles appeared in the Russian press on Tuesday accusing the CIA in killing the Russian defector Litvinenko in London. All the articles were printed in FSB-backed newspapers, and are designed for "internal use only" inside Russia.



The "arguments", depending on the article, are as follows:



The CIA killed Mr Litvinenko in connection with a power struggle in Kremlin for the post of the future president. The U.S. allegedly supports Medvedev and Sergei Ivanov and poisoned Mr Litvinenko to discredit their rivals.



The defector picked up radiation due to a fault in the technological process in a secret Al-Qaeda laboratory in London where his friends had been making a "dirty bomb". Russian readers, due to earlier similar articles, believe that Al-Qaeda is a subsidiary of the CIA. So Mr Litvinenko was accidently poisoned by the CIA.

Litvinenko was allegedly mentally ill from the very start. The CIA and MI6 fed him a "truth vaccine". He committed suicide.

Litvinenko was not a "traitor". He was a brave FSB Russian agent in the enemy capital of London pretending to be anti-Putin. The CIA got to know about his double role and poisoned him with polonium, the Russian press says.

And what about this article from Ireland

Quote:
The collapse in Co Kildare of a former acting Russian prime minister at the weekend has been linked to the death of Alexander Litvinenko, the former KGB spy, who died in London from radiation poisoning last week.

Yegor Gaidar (50), considered a chief architect of Russia's early market reforms, collapsed on Saturday at a conference on Irish-Russian relations at the National University of Ireland in Maynooth.
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yeh so Plastic Brilliance is now known as FOXYSTOAT - Come on by and check it out!

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Unread 30 Nov 2006, 13:17   #20
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
The collapse in Co Kildare of a former acting Russian prime minister at the weekend has been linked to the death of Alexander Litvinenko, the former KGB spy, who died in London from radiation poisoning last week.

Yegor Gaidar (50), considered a chief architect of Russia's early market reforms, collapsed on Saturday at a conference on Irish-Russian relations at the National University of Ireland in Maynooth.
Soviet-Irish relations of course being the very lynchpin of 21st century world politics
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Unread 30 Nov 2006, 14:52   #21
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Soviet-Irish relations of course being the very lynchpin of 21st century world politics
Let the Guinness-Vodka War begin!
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Unread 1 Dec 2006, 17:09   #22
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

The independent and times seem to believe his friend, the italian academic, has been poisoned now (or tested positive for polonium, which is surely the same thing, isn't it?). I read a few days ago the newly poisoned academic said both of them (him and Litvinenko) were threatened prior to Litvinenko's death.

And now a former Russian PM has been poisoned. Putin has already telephoned him to wish him a speedy recovery.
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Unread 1 Dec 2006, 17:46   #23
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

If this isn't the Russian government, I lean towards the rogue agent explanation. Either way, they're not looking terribly good right now.
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Unread 1 Dec 2006, 20:02   #24
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Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Heh. That's fantastic.
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Unread 1 Dec 2006, 20:13   #25
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Exclamation Re: Alexander Litvinenko

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
If this isn't the Russian government, I lean towards the rogue agent explanation.
A rogue agent with some hellacious contacts (it's not like you can get Polonium 210 at Tesco's).
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