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Unread 16 May 2006, 14:23   #1
MegaNova
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XP this round

Before the round started there was a thread about how crappy the new XP formula was. And now that the round is getting close to 1000 ticks. I was starting to wonder what other ppl think about it.
Becouse i think that the new XP formula is crap, and supports bashing to much.
The only battles that arise atm are ppl who forget to pull or are fakes.

Last round on a good day i would get close to 10k xp with 3fleeting.
This round i havent 3fleeted but i have attacked with 2fleets each day at planets same value/score as me. But this has gotten me like a total of 7k XP.

Last round ppl whined that the XP formula made them quit.
Well this round the XP formulla makes me quit, becouse it supports bashing, at a degree that makes it less fun for the more casual player.

I am not quitting PA this round becouse of it, as i joined a BP and i am not going to abandom them or the randoms that got ingal (as i still like chatting with them).
But i do however would like to discuss how the XP formula could be adjusted for the next round to make it more fun for the casual player.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 15:03   #2
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Re: XP this round

I love the new XP formula.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 15:04   #3
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
I love the new XP formula.
You should really pad out your reasoning a bit there dude
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Unread 16 May 2006, 15:31   #4
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Re: XP this round

tbh i wasn´t happy with last rounds xp formula...being value cath it was damn difficult to get a decent rank!

they tweaked it too much though in my eyes, attacking bigger planets gets now rewared too less tbh, + xp wh0ring should be still there as an alternative, not as effective as last round though
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Unread 16 May 2006, 15:34   #5
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Re: XP this round

Well I like this round so far, its more like the old fashioned way, but I think the formulae on the first r17 beta was the best, decent xp and still a good balance between value and xp planets..
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Unread 16 May 2006, 15:42   #6
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Re: XP this round

this round is a tedious repetition of bottom feeding, feels like the shit "OMG OLD DAYS THTA EVERYONE PRETENDED TO LOVE" all over again

but then again last round was pretty tedious too
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Unread 16 May 2006, 15:45   #7
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Re: XP this round

I haven't played the beta so I can't comment on that formula. But I like this formula aswell. If you target higher scoring and higher valued planets then your own you still get a decent amount of XP.

So MegaNova you should just work on your targeting skills, cause you can still get around 3k XP per day if you attack right.


edit:fixed a nick
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Unread 16 May 2006, 15:51   #8
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You should really pad out your reasoning a bit there dude
There is not much to reason about, it depends on your view. I simply like the old way of value play. So currently, XP does what it should, in my eyes: keep your score up some if you crash/get fleet caught/bashed, so you don't feel like you've lost all your achievements.

The other part of the people wants xp whoring to be a viable way to win. For whatever reasons. I can't agree on that.

As far as the bashing goes, I don't feel or think it happens any more than last round. I actually think target picking has become more important than last round, and that if you continually attack smaller planets, you end up behind those that do a better work and attack bigger planets.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 16:12   #9
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
I actually think target picking has become more important than last round, and that if you continually attack smaller planets, you end up behind those that do a better work and attack bigger planets.
Not remotely true for me.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 16:14   #10
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Not remotely true for me.
While I think I've sent four or five attack fleets all round at most I'd say that from what I've seen the planets doing better are those hitting down the food chain constantly.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 16:15   #11
MegaNova
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
As far as the bashing goes, I don't feel or think it happens any more than last round. I actually think target picking has become more important than last round, and that if you continually attack smaller planets, you end up behind those that do a better work and attack bigger planets.
This is where i dont agree. These days becouse XP is non existant, its of no use to attack somebody the same value/score as yourself, its just about who has the easiest roids inside your bashlimit.

And the reward for attacking bigger ppl is basicly non existant.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 17:33   #12
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Re: XP this round

The new XP formula DOES indeed support newbie bashing, seeing as XP has become more or less obsolete, and its now just a race for roids. Personally, I prefer hitting planets smaller than myself, as I can't really see the point in pursuing XP, when it's so hard to come by.

But I suppose it's impossible to satisfy the lot of us.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 17:37   #13
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
As far as the bashing goes, I don't feel or think it happens any more than last round. I actually think target picking has become more important than last round, and that if you continually attack smaller planets, you end up behind those that do a better work and attack bigger planets.
are we talking about the same rounds here?
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Unread 16 May 2006, 20:24   #14
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Re: XP this round

I've been thinking about this for a week or so now, and I thought it would be better to simply change the formula to the following:

XP gained = roids_capped * ((5*value_bravery) + (3*score_bravery))

So:
max XP gain = 16XP per roid
equal value gains = 8XP per roid
min XP gain = 3XP per roid

As opposed to round 16:

max XP gain = 20XP per roid
equal value gains = 10XP per roid
min XP gain = 8XP per roid

And this round:

max XP gain = 20XP per roid
equal value gains = 5XP per roid
min XP gain = 0XP per roid

This will still allow XP whoring to compete for a top spot, but alot harder.
This will still encourage hitting those bigger than you.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 21:46   #15
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Re: XP this round

Arfy's idea may be a good one. One of my primary complaints with the old system was the extreme difference (factor of 5, minimum was 4, not 8) between hitting downwards and hitting upwards. This has only been made worse by the new system (except it's not as noticable since XP is practically non-existant).
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Unread 16 May 2006, 22:01   #16
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Re: XP this round

most of PA-players, or if not most so those who cry loudest, wanted xp to be unimportant for the game, so PA-Crew changed it back to become like that. So simply live with it and bash down and try do defend upwards.

actually I dont think its the reduction in attack xp that changed the game but the introduction of defense xp - now value players have value and xp as well on their side. Also with the shipstats its harder to get through on higher value planets
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Unread 16 May 2006, 22:06   #17
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Re: XP this round

Defence xp is effectively meaningless to be honest. Can someone in pateam tell us who has the most xp from defence actually, or would that information be saved in the database?
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Unread 16 May 2006, 22:11   #18
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Re: XP this round

I'd put money on it being a planet in 1:1.
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Unread 16 May 2006, 22:46   #19
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robsch
most of PA-players, or if not most so those who cry loudest, wanted xp to be unimportant for the game, so PA-Crew changed it back to become like that. So simply live with it and bash down and try do defend upwards.
I just keep wondering where you guys get "numbers" like this? I have yet to see any polls on it, but if there is: I'll shut my mouth. If not: My interpretation of it would be that people want XP to be less effective than last round, but still be an important factor when picking targets, and maybe even be a viable way to win.

Besides, if people wanted XP to be unimportant, why is it even in the game? And also, just because people want it it doesn't have to be good
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Unread 16 May 2006, 23:20   #20
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Re: XP this round

I think they downsized xp a bit too much. Not that it's anything i lose sleep over, i still hit ppl who have higher value than me most of the times just like i've done for the last 7 rounds (and no, i'm not an xp-whore)
All i know is that i am personally enjoying this round more than last round and playing for value is a welcome change after last rounds travesty (no offence to ascendancy or any other xp-whores/farmers from last round, i just though there were way too much of you for a decent round)
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Unread 16 May 2006, 23:38   #21
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Re: XP this round

Arfys suggestion looks quite decent, and is at least worth trying in a beta test after this round imo
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Unread 16 May 2006, 23:56   #22
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Re: XP this round

I liked the formula with the number 700 in - indeed my calc is still available at

http://www.fxmy.co.uk/pa/xp17.php

Score = value + 700(XP^0.75)

Just incase you were wondering about how much defence XP is available in a 1400 tick round:

1400 ticks of outgoing shippage. 10 ticks for the def there and back (galaxy) = 140 defence missions per round.

35 xp per mission , and 3 slots is 35 * 140 * 3 = 14,700 XP, or 735k score.

Approx!

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Unread 17 May 2006, 02:51   #23
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Re: XP this round

I love the xp formula... compliments my 0 loss xp whoring strategy nicely
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Unread 19 May 2006, 09:20   #24
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaNova
I am not quitting PA this round becouse of it, as i joined a BP and i am not going to abandom them or the randoms that got ingal (as i still like chatting with them).
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Unread 20 May 2006, 01:30   #25
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Re: XP this round

I think the new formula makes landing attacks much easier, but less rewarding. Rewards are much more heavily skewed towards the ability to defend successfully. I'm not convinced that this is a good thing.
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Unread 20 May 2006, 01:47   #26
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Re: XP this round

It promotes team work which is what most 'traditional' alliances obviously favour. I think this is good too.

It discourages solo play - and lets face it, the game is only really fun for more than two weeks because of non-game activities such as these forums and IRC.
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Unread 20 May 2006, 04:09   #27
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Re: XP this round

I love it because its more or less obsolete. I would love it more if XP was gone. Completely!
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Unread 20 May 2006, 09:08   #28
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
It promotes team work which is what most 'traditional' alliances obviously favour. I think this is good too.
It promotes the kind of team work that can only be done at 4am. Most people's scores are now comprised of value, which reflects your ability to get other people to defend you at 4am. Attack cooperation, which can be organised at slightly more sane times of day, is less important because the total score gained from it is much less (unless, like me, you're zik).
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Unread 20 May 2006, 14:36   #29
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I love it because its more or less obsolete. I would love it more if XP was gone. Completely!
I feel like a dinosaur
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Unread 20 May 2006, 14:49   #30
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Re: XP this round

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Originally Posted by Banned
I feel like a dinosaur
yeah, round 16 will soon be commonly referred to as "Ice-Age" where there were the mighty "Ascendancy" around.

There will be films for new PA-players where you can see islands full of xp-whores and peeps will fearfully hide their faces when they see them three-fleeting all the way
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Unread 20 May 2006, 14:53   #31
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robsch
There will be films for new PA-players where you can see islands full of xp-whores and peeps will fearfully hide their faces when they see them three-fleeting all the way
I don't think anyone ever feared xpwh0res as xpwh0res' fleets weren't much to brag about
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Unread 21 May 2006, 09:35   #32
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I love it because its more or less obsolete. I would love it more if XP was gone. Completely!
lol, looks like i'm not the only guy with this in his mind, alto i've been saying this since it was introduced
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Unread 21 May 2006, 09:56   #33
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Re: XP this round

i like the XP formula,.. im a part time player, and im doing just fine with it Granted it adds more worth on having value,.. but you just have to realise that and ADAPT WITH THE BLOODY GAME!!!
every round is different in some way,.. (generally), you acknowledge the changes and adapt your style,.. or you moan and bitch on here about how it isn't how your playing, thus it's wrong,...

anywho,... i like it long time,
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Unread 21 May 2006, 10:45   #34
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko
i like the XP formula,.. im a part time player, and im doing just fine with it Granted it adds more worth on having value,.. but you just have to realise that and ADAPT WITH THE BLOODY GAME!!!
every round is different in some way,.. (generally), you acknowledge the changes and adapt your style,.. or you moan and bitch on here about how it isn't how your playing, thus it's wrong,...

anywho,... i like it long time,
I think people did realize that value is a lot more important this round and therefore adapted to that situation (at least I did so), however, what was also reintroduced was the "lose your fleet once and you can just stop playing for a top spot"gameplay. I simply question if PA should be a game where no matter what you did all round long you can lose it in one single night, as that does actually **** up the gaming experience for a lot of people.
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Unread 21 May 2006, 13:42   #35
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by derry
lol, looks like i'm not the only guy with this in his mind, alto i've been saying this since it was introduced
By far not, I've had talks many people with that view on IRC...they just cba to post on the forums .
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Unread 21 May 2006, 14:02   #36
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
By far not, I've had talks many people with that view on IRC...they just cba to post on the forums .
Cool, I'm not the only one with imaginary friends
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Unread 21 May 2006, 17:01   #37
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Re: XP this round

XP: 23,689

This rd its shit
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Unread 21 May 2006, 17:10   #38
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
By far not, I've had talks many people with that view on IRC...they just cba to post on the forums .
Oh really?
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Unread 21 May 2006, 18:43   #39
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Re: XP this round

To be honest, I rather like the xp formua this round. I had a late start and had to be pretty inactive at the beginning due to rl issues. A couple weeks in, I was rank 2000 or so until I started playing harder...at which point xp allowed me to climb the ranks quite a bit faster (good target selection). Now I am still very behind in value, but my rank much better. Anyway the point of the story is that xp can still be used effectively, its just not the "determining factor" anymore.
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Unread 21 May 2006, 18:50   #40
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I didn't know this was so important that I have to supply evidence and names...
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Unread 21 May 2006, 18:55   #41
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
I didn't know this was so important that I have to supply evidence and names...
Maybe you should start reading your memos.
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Unread 22 May 2006, 14:39   #42
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Re: XP this round

I've decided that this round while being politically shit is actually very shit in terms of how XP works. There is no encouragement whatsoever to attack up the food chain, hence the only way of playing is to put in excessive amounts of time which is hardly going to make the game 'accessible'. This round is massively defensive and unlike round 4 (which was horribly defensive) it won't be saved by exciting politics.

Value is the only option to play for and to me this round does not strike a 'balance', instead it pretty much gave in to the shortsighted whining hysteria of people who weren't clever enough to spot a different way of play. How you achieve this 'balance' I don't know at this time.

Their only valid point was that XP was far too beneficial and they weren't getting out what they put in. What they got was a game purely constructed for their benefit and one that made it crap for all those not at the top of the foodchain as all you can do is attack down, which is not an interesting way of playing and doesn't really offer any kind of challenge..

The difference is instead of crying about it and leaving, I'm going to argue on PD about it instead of going off on one.
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Unread 22 May 2006, 16:10   #43
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Their only valid point was that XP was far too beneficial and they weren't getting out what they put in.
Not at all. What people failed to grok was that the problem was not the amount of XP a planet gained, it was the difference in gain between a planet gaining 4-8 XP per roid and a planet gaining 20 xp per roid. At worst it was a factor of 5, which doesn't sound like much, but it's a probable difference of 4 million score (or more!) which is a lot (for the record, it took ~16.5k XP to get 1m score under the old formula, that's ~850 roids if you're capping at 20 XP per, ~4.25k if you're capping at 4 XP per).

The problem is that the new formula combines elements of the old (rewarded for hitting upward) with diminishing returns (but only until your XP pushes your score past your target's) and a drastically decreased constant factor (from 10 to 5, but it's actually more like 2.5). This, combined with giving ~17% less score for XP, has made XP a very small factor on most players. However, the difference in gain has actually increased.
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Unread 22 May 2006, 18:32   #44
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Re: XP this round

I think you misunderstand. Plus I'm too stupid to think about complicated formulae so you kind of stumped me there. All I can talk about is cause and effect so bear with me.

The point is that they felt they weren't being rewarded for their effort and felt that value was no longer viable because XP was so much better and easier. I agree with them.

The rest of your post i agree with. Nowadays, the only real way to get lots of XP is simply to hit downwards and gain lots of roids. This is just helping out value more than is warranted. Really they should have just kept XP the way it was and not make the stats as beneficial towards the XP style of play as they were, as in my opinion, there was difficulty in races that weren't terran last round to get a big XP planet.

However, with the XP camp being generally reasonable people (yes, ad hominem but i don't give a shit) we were willing to try out a compromise rather than use what I believe was an eminently sensible suggestion.
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Unread 22 May 2006, 18:47   #45
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Re: XP this round

Yeah, we basically agree. Some of the phrasing in your original post threw me off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Nowadays, the only real way to get lots of XP is simply to hit downwards and gain lots of roids. This is just helping out value more than is warranted.
Quite the contrary. The real way to gain lots of XP is to hit as large targets as possible. This works great for Terrans with huge DE fleets. If you hit downwards you'll gain ~1-2 XP per roid. Best case is 10k roids in a round, putting you at 20k XP at best. Whereas if you cap 4k at 5 XP per roid you get the same amount of XP. 5 XP per roid is doable if you're a Ter with a large DE fleet.

Quote:
Really they should have just kept XP the way it was and not make the stats as beneficial towards the XP style of play as they were, as in my opinion, there was difficulty in races that weren't terran last round to get a big XP planet.
No! That's what I was trying to say. The difference is the problem. The reward was disproportionately distributed.
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Unread 22 May 2006, 22:02   #46
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Re: XP this round

im hitting above me still,.. and gaining plenty of xp for it,.. when i can land that is
and i try to teach everyone joining F-crew to do the same when possible,..

by having a bit more focus on your value, it makes it possible to damage a big planets overall score enough,.. just that alliances don't seem to be trying to take down their rivals larger planets, and instead seem to want to get good cheep roids back for their own members. nothing wrong with this, but it only helps the ranking for the alliance, not for the individual as much, as your not taking out the opposition from above,...
Maybe i'm wrong, soon hear about it here if i am
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Unread 23 May 2006, 10:15   #47
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Re: XP this round

if you actively attack every night, theres no reason you couldnt be in the top100 right now regardless of skill or xp. Just dont be a noob and kill your fleet.
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Unread 23 May 2006, 10:17   #48
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoaT
if you actively attack every night, theres no reason you couldnt be in the top100 right now regardless of skill or xp. Just dont be a noob and kill your fleet.
Ever heard of defence?

If you can't hold onto your roids then you won't make it into the top 100. You can be the greatest attacker in the world, but if you can't hold onto the roids you steal then it's just not possible.
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Unread 23 May 2006, 10:17   #49
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoaT
if you actively attack every night, theres no reason you couldnt be in the top100 right now regardless of skill or xp. Just dont be a noob and kill your fleet.
What are you talking about you lunatic? Well more than one hundred people manage to attack every night, how the hell are they all going to fit in there?
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Unread 23 May 2006, 13:13   #50
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Re: XP this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Ever heard of defence?

If you can't hold onto your roids then you won't make it into the top 100. You can be the greatest attacker in the world, but if you can't hold onto the roids you steal then it's just not possible.
"most" ppl do not lose roids every single night. If you get only marginal defense, you should still be able to roid more than your losses.
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