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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 15:48   #1
ArcChas
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Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

As you may have seen in my posts in another thread, I recently self-exiled from a galaxy that I thought was inactive and had no future. I have since exiled 5 more times and I'm now back in my original galaxy.

Anyway, this post isn't about how lucky I am - it's about my experiences along the way. All of the "small" galaxies seem to be experiencing the same thing. Despite the fact that they have no roids and no value (to speak of) they are getting constant incomings.

Why is this happening?
Well, it's simple. The universe seems to be full of Zikonian "vultures" scavenging the corpses of dead and dying galaxies trying to pick up small quantities of ships from inactives.

What's wrong with that?
Several players have told me that they can't even build small fleets without someone coming along and taking it from them. They ask me why are they getting these constant incomings and whether there's anything they can do about it. I've had to say that I can't think of a solution to their problems.

So, the small, inactive players are being remorsely bashed (again) and it's the game mechanics that make it worthwhile. Time for a change?

I think so.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 16:55   #2
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

I beleive this to be a fair point, but while we are at it lets removed roiding!

Bashing is not solely because ziks can steal, bashing is present in this game because it just is. Its a war game. In war there are no morals.

I happened to be part of an alliance who dont bash. But still there will be players of this alliance looking for handy roids goin off on solo attacks. This currently can't be stopped.

PAteam have on the other hand a formula to discourage bashing, with the whole value system. This promotes attacking greater value planets for XP gaining.

Maybe its time to review the current value system and tweak it little more.

Rgds,
tsm
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 17:01   #3
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

If anyone even THINKS about using the "subverting" word, they will make me laugh at them
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 17:07   #4
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

theres probley some people out there wanting the ships more than the xp

but i have a simple answer to this question. run ur fleet
and if your not active enough well tuff sh*t
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 17:34   #5
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Prelaunch your fleets before you go to sleep, recall them when you wake up.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:12   #6
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by themast
theres probley some people out there wanting the ships more than the xp

but i have a simple answer to this question. run ur fleet
and if your not active enough well tuff sh*t
Classic response. I hope you'll be very happy playing this game with less than 1000 players.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:13   #7
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Prelaunch your fleets before you go to sleep, recall them when you wake up.
That's pretty much what I'm doing - but what's the point?
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:15   #8
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

And just to add a little perspective - I have 103 roids now (yes, I know that will allow the sadder players to work out who I am) and I have 5 (count 'em - FIVE) waves of incs - and it's the middle of the afternoon.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:17   #9
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by themast
theres probley some people out there wanting the ships more than the xp

but i have a simple answer to this question. run ur fleet
and if your not active enough well tuff sh*t
The other active thread brought hope to me, with comments from guys like Wakey and Bashar showing that there's still life in the community trying to help new players. Then you come along and make this kind of response.

You started in Round 4 according to your sig - don't you remember what it's like being only semi-active, checking your planet once a day? Not everyone's as active as you and me. People aren't always around to run this fleet - sometimes they don't even know that they need to run their fleet, especially when they're new.


And we wonder why new players don't hang around...
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:24   #10
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
Bashing is not solely because ziks can steal,
True.

But in the past, once your roids had been taken you were guaranteed a breathing space - which allowed you to build up your roids again by attacking with the ships you had left.

This latest craze of Ziks "sweeping up" the fleets of people who already have no way to rebuild them means that there is no way back.

If you have ships you can steal roids - if you have roids you can build ships - when you have neither you're well and truly scr*w*d.

If we want to encourage people to play more than half a round we have to prevent this kind of nonsense. There was a good reason for stealing having been removed from the game - it means that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Bringing it back was a serious mistake.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:44   #11
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Oh yes, I almost forgot this part.

Just to add insult to injury, the poor sods don't even get salvage when their ships are stolen.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 20:02   #12
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
You started in Round 4 according to your sig.
Ahhh Round 4. How I miss thee. ArcChas, I see where you are coming from with this but with regards to this round you can say dear god the Cath shouldnt have there EMP because it freezes newbie fleets before they can fire a shot off.

Last round (apparently) the Zik ships were much stronger and each race has an indidvidual trait / tactic (Cath freezing in any numbers, Ter having heavy ships in small numbers, Xan having small cheap ships and ofc Zik being thieving mofo's). But at the end of the day if you remove the characteristic of stealing from the Zik you have to create a new race.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 20:39   #13
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Freezing doesn't spoil the round for new players.

Killing ships gives no benefit to the attacker - other than clearing a path for the pods. Once the roids have been stolen there's no point in going after the ships (except in an alliance war - but that's a totally different scenario).

Ship stealing means that a player has absolutely nothing left - and therefore no reason to continue playing.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 20:41   #14
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

It does spoil the round as they think wow Ive got all these cool ships, then thanks to the stupidly low firing, the EMP fires first and renders the newbie fleet useless.

Now that would be discouraging for a newbie

I personally havnt (yet) suffered a wipe out this round, indeed you must go back to r6 for when that last happeend, but at the end of the day PA is a war game - sometimes battles go well and you are successful and other times they are bad and you must pick yourself up.

Planetarion - not for the feint of heart!
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 20:50   #15
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
It does spoil the round as they think wow Ive got all these cool ships, then thanks to the stupidly low firing, the EMP fires first and renders the newbie fleet useless.

Now that would be discouraging for a newbie
Discouraging, yes - but at least they still have the ability to develop their fleets and learn from their mistakes. Stealing is an entirely different order of "disappointment" - and one from which (for many) there is no way back.

I'll still be here next round (I'm too addicted to do otherwise) but many will not - and that can only be bad for all of us.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 20:53   #16
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Well to be honest having a fleet stolen, to the person being attacked, is just the same as being attacked by convential means, just means you dont get salvage, but to be honest unless it was a huge newbie fleet it wouldnt make much difference since the salvage doesnt get you back your entire fleet.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 21:18   #17
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
Freezing doesn't spoil the round for new players.

Killing ships gives no benefit to the attacker - other than clearing a path for the pods. Once the roids have been stolen there's no point in going after the ships (except in an alliance war - but that's a totally different scenario).

Ship stealing means that a player has absolutely nothing left - and therefore no reason to continue playing.
Best post of the bunch, and there are some good ones here thus far.

Zik are weaker this round but the double edged attack is still there. If a zik cant find a good target to roid, then the can turn to looking for a ship pond.

Removing zik altogether is a drastic step and as Smudge said, it would lead to a creation of a new race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
But still there will be players of this alliance looking for handy roids goin off on solo attacks. This currently can't be stopped.
This is the main problems with the game. To many players do this exact thing. 1 fleet for alliance attack, 1 for defense, 1 for random.

Yes the bash limits need to be changed but in a different way.

Heres the idea:

If you are in an alliance attacking a planet that is in an alliance, then the current bash limit stays in effect. But if your target is not under an alliance tag, then the target would need to have a value within 25% of yours in order for you to launch.

Example: If you are 1mil value and the planet you are attacking does not have an ingame alliance, then that planet would need to be at least 750k.

Allianceless planets would have the normal bash limit when attacking each other.

I think this number is perfect, as it would force the solo bashers to either A) Take a much bigger chance, B) Def in alliance or in gal C) Attack with aliance or D) leave his fleet home.

The only drawback I see to this is that small alliances planets will still be bashable, leading to them being safer solo than allied.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 21:23   #18
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Fyodor - good thinking.

I always think that the Bash Limit is a huge area of "dodgyness" within PA. As you say small alliances will still be bashable but there should be incentives for both alliance and non-Alliance play. For example, a non-Alliance planet could have a wider Bash Limit than an Alliance planet, to compensate for the lack of ETA for defence
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 21:41   #19
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

The idea of changing the bash limits for planets with alliance and without seems like a good idea in theory, but in practice it doesn't work out.

The thing about Planetarion is it has a rock paper scissors format, you know paper beats rock which beats scissors which beats paper. In my experience, it is quite possible to find targets that are close to twice your value, that you can still successfully land on, if they don't get any defence. Well, instantly by looking at the bash limit you would know who will get defence and who probably would not get defence. All you would have to do is have a buddy who has a higher value than you look at your targets and tell you which ones have a bash limit of 25% of which ones have a bash limit of 40%.

In fact I think this idea would make noob bashing even more common, because now everybody would know who has an alliance and who doesn't.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 21:42   #20
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

I actually encourage the new players in my galaxy to play as Zikonian. Since many do not have an alliance, or an alliance that will be able to help keep their roids ensuring growth, these players can still stay on their feet by stealing fleet.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 22:06   #21
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

shanebratt - yes in theory it would work and be simple, but it would need checks in place to prevent exploitation

rnd|One - indeed this is a good stratergy but similarly you have to instruct them to do the Space Hulls research first (so they dont get attacked by xan fi pods)
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 22:08   #22
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanebratt
The idea of changing the bash limits for planets with alliance and without seems like a good idea in theory, but in practice it doesn't work out.
A) its never been practice
B) Your theory is a little far fetched as:
1) We are not talking about planets with twice your value whom you can land on, we are talking about a way to protect the new smaller planets from alliance randoms
2) If by looking at the bash limits you determine who has an alliance and who doesnt, they would still need to have 75% of your score for you to hit them. And besides, for the most part, you can look at a players history/newsies to determine who will get def or not.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 22:29   #23
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyodor
A) its never been practice
B) Your theory is a little far fetched as:
1) We are not talking about planets with twice your value whom you can land on, we are talking about a way to protect the new smaller planets from alliance randoms
2) If by looking at the bash limits you determine who has an alliance and who doesnt, they would still need to have 75% of your score for you to hit them. And besides, for the most part, you can look at a players history/newsies to determine who will get def or not.
This whole system could be easily incorporated with a sliding value system of things something like the below formula

bashLimit = yourScore / x

where x is set at a different % for each "class" of planet (ie dependant on score)
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 23:04   #24
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Look, bottomline, this is a bad idea.

Do you really want to have encouragement for people to stay solo and not join alliances?
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 23:06   #25
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

shanebratt - if there were benefits for people going non alliance AND alliances like F-Crew taking on newbies and training them, yes
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 23:23   #26
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Zikonian players are traditionally for the better players. huge risk risk for huge reward. If u suck cause u cant play zik, then play terran like other noobs.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 23:41   #27
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Now, please explain to me why there is no salvage for stolen ships? Planetarion isn't a realistic game, and this salvage, combined with something like arfy suggested in the suggestions forum, would surely ensure new players do not get too hammered.

That said, anyone who logs in less than twice a day and therefore can't save their fleet (Using the +11 prelaunch feature), then they surely don't add much to the game anyway as they'll be far below the bash limit of most...
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 23:49   #28
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Yet how do you expect a new person to know about the prelaunch feature?
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 00:14   #29
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
That said, anyone who logs in less than twice a day and therefore can't save their fleet (Using the +11 prelaunch feature), then they surely don't add much to the game anyway as they'll be far below the bash limit of most...
Remember alot of these guys are noobs. Ive got one right now in pa mail who has incs (terrran battleships) He tells me he just ordered up some anti fighters for defense....These are noobs

Its not about adding much to the game now. Its about not driving them away so they can add to the game later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Zikonian players are traditionally for the better players. huge risk risk for huge reward. If u suck cause u cant play zik, then play terran like other noobs.
The problem is the noobs are going terran and such and the Ziks are coming in to steal their fleets.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 01:15   #30
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

tbh i agree introducing steeling for all races, means there are 4 races out there value whoring on noobs, what a pile of shit tbh, one is bad enuf.

i thought this was a bad idea from the start imo, but hell, now everyone is upto speed, please get rid of steeling, thank you.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 03:57   #31
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Zikonian players are traditionally for the better players. huge risk risk for huge reward. If u suck cause u cant play zik, then play terran like other noobs.
Non sequitur detected.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 05:23   #32
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Yet how do you expect a new person to know about the prelaunch feature?
Include it in the first mail they receive or something as 'how to keep your ships safe' or something?
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 08:42   #33
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Zikonian players are traditionally for the better players. huge risk risk for huge reward. If u suck cause u cant play zik, then play terran like other noobs.
lol
ziks are a race for bashers and farmers. Never have i been attacked by a zik with a lower value than mine. They're always twice my value, and often very close to the bash limit.
This round tweaks didn't change their behaviour but lessened the impact on their score
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 09:50   #34
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Yet how do you expect a new person to know about the prelaunch feature?
itt's in the manual under missions
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 10:47   #35
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

pfft... stealing isn't bad, all it needs is that the steal ships die when stealing to even it out. That way you won't end up losing your entire fleet without any salvage if attacked by a Zik, problem solved?
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 11:18   #36
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

to be honest, it would probably be helpful for newbies to be messaged by there GC informing them of the manual and ship stats stuff
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Unread 15 Aug 2005, 00:55   #37
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

I m playing zik. And havent had as much fun for ages.( I dont attack players without roids in shit gals though ^^ )

I think more people will leave planetarion if they remove stealing, than if they keep it. Also it will be the paying / active players leaving instead of inactive freebies adding little or nothing to the game.

Instead of removing it, we have to look for other options, like different bash limidt. What if u couldnt attack anyone with given % under your roid count? This would stop people sending wave after wave for some ships. This could be implemented for freebies only.

example: u can attack payed player with any roid count, but you cant attack freebies if they have given % less roids than u.
Wont remove the problem, but will hopefully help.

Also - give salvage for stolen ships.



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Unread 15 Aug 2005, 00:57   #38
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
pfft... stealing isn't bad, all it needs is that the steal ships die when stealing to even it out. That way you won't end up losing your entire fleet without any salvage if attacked by a Zik, problem solved?

They will still loose their ships, though people wont be attacking for ships as much as people do now.

This would remove a very fun aspect of the game though. IMO.
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Quote:
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 15 Aug 2005, 01:01   #39
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
They will still loose their ships, though people wont be attacking for ships as much as people do now.

This would remove a very fun aspect of the game though. IMO.
I know they will still lose their ships, but they will get salvage for the dieing attacking ships. In turn that means they won't be left with nothing at all, but atleast can rebuild some of their losses. And if you make ZIk ships die, perhaps their efficiency could be upped a bit to compensate for them losing ships, since its not just a win win situation anymore and thus less common to just send stealers somewhere and come back with a fleet twice as big.

And i seem to recall Ziks enjoying the pre-PaX rounds aswell when their steal ships died after stealing (or atleast a proportion based on armour they had and the armour stolen).
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Unread 15 Aug 2005, 01:04   #40
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

I for one didnt like zik at all.

I ve missed thieves and pirates

dont remove em from me once more.

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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 16 Aug 2005, 16:35   #41
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Re: Time to scrap Zik stealing (again)?

I like what has happened to the Ziks. Last round they were essential if you wanted to win. This round they are an alternative way to play the game, which is how it should be

I'm playing Ziks this round and I couldn't be happier with my decision.
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