Cath A Fading Race ?

[~RevictioN~]

As I see it cath have the hardest life in the universe partially cause of stats partially because of the race specifics itself.

1st reason cath is a fading race is due to the ease of attacking and the nerf bat they got hit with this rnd. I think its has much to do with the CR fleet being crap and only the beetle to build with in the CO fleet.

2nd reason is the one im more concerned with as it stay with cath every rnd. The race specilization of the cath is the EMP this can beh a strong weapon or can beh your failing handicap. The idea of EMP on paper looks nice enuff but when put into the universe you see people hunting out cath targets in alliance attacks, and you see them getting multi waved. This is solely due to EMP and the fact that bulding cath kill ships is just as worse of an option. I suggest turning caths into a race that counters ZIk much the way Terran and Xan counter each other. Since Zik steal ships and thier stealing technology needs electronic systems to do this mehbe cath emp ships could faulter thier ability to steal ships. Since zik kill ships shoot slow and last mehbe cath EMP ships could shoot 2 times. 1st time on regular init then a second time after pods, before zik steal ships, And only at the steal ships. This counter could produce more caths aswell as take ziks power down a needed amount, While also taking the heat off of Cath a bit as no longer are they vunerable to every race. Also when bringing down big ziks Cath could play a crucial role since big ziks could no longer just sit at home and steal the INC fleet they would lose roids and not gain fleet which is something Ziks enjoy very much now.

well thats my 2 cents on Cath If this is not the way for caths so be it but something needs to beh done, As EMP is just a big sissy gun and only good for the cath who is on top and even then 2 or 3 people can tae him down with no losses.

[TheShadowMan]

5 Caths in Top 100.

Says alot really

[MAdnRisKy]

include emp res.

suddenly you can balance the armour issues around terran xan and zik and cat become efficient again

[General Martok]

And next round make sure EMP is more efficient than let's say xan killships EMP is supposed to be efficient....

[ChubbyChecker]

Having EMP is a huge disadvantage. It makes you more likely to be attacked since people won't lose ships and it makes your attacks more likely to be defended against since again, the defender won't lose ships.
I think the best way to overcome this disadvantage is to make EMP guns more powerful in relation to other guns. As it stands now Xan have more powerful weapons than the Cat EMP weapons, which is just silly imo.

Having EMP ships shoot a second time only at stealing ships is a bad idea I think.

Another way of balancing Cats would be to make EMP weapons kill a certain percentage of the ships they freeze, as has been discussed elsewhere. Maybe have a research branch for it. eg research 1 you kill 5% of the ships you freeze, research 2 you kill 10% and research 3 you kill 15%.

[ANdrode]

Originally Posted by ~RevictioN~

As I see it cath have the hardest life in the universe partially cause of stats partially because of the race specifics itself

There are a few suggestions for cath improvements already.
check http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...7&page=1&pp=50

Most people there agree on re-adding emp-res, and upgrading cath firepower by 50-60% (!!!)
Also the suggestion of killing/stealing a certain amount of stunned ships when defending is good.

I agree with you on the point that cath is the worst race this round. CR have the eta disadvantage, and Zik like defending against these extremely well.
Also there is no CO anti-FR so there is no way to effectively raid a zik w/ co by yourself.

The point of cathaar has always been to be able to take larger targets, and attack without losses. That would be the compromise for being an easy target.

This round that balance is botched up, and imho it should be restored.

[at0mic.c0w]

Originally Posted by General Martok

And next round make sure EMP is more efficient than let's say xan killships EMP is supposed to be efficient....

the way the stats are presented make this rather obvious. i'm not saying this isn't a flaw but if you picked cath and didn't notice that, then it's entirely your fault.

[E-Choke]

Hmmm, I looked at the stats aswell before I chose my race, still I didn't know Ziks didn't lose ships on capping and Xan wasn't stealth anymore, otherwise I would have gone Zik, like a lot of Caths would I presume

[NitinA]

Originally Posted by TheShadowMan

5 Caths in Top 100.

Says alot really

That the upper quartile of players who review the stats before the round starts knew that Cath were the weakest race this round? Or did you have something else in mind?

Originally Posted by ANdrode

Most people there agree on re-adding emp-res, and upgrading cath firepower by 50-60% (!!!)

I disagree. The only thing on the Cath race that needs to be improved is the stats (and as that's changed every round, no changes need to be made to Cath at all this round). Cath were a good race last round, and have all it needs to be a good race in future rounds. This round, the stats are a bit lopsided, but that changes every round. No "Cath" improvements need to made to the race itself, just to the stats. Just like Xans were weak last round, and everybody came up with tons of unnesseccary suggestions to make them stronger, when all that needed to be fixed was the stats.

E-Choke : Everything is written in the manual, it's why it's there. The lack of reading instructions is a fault of the user (or in this case, the player).

-NitinA

[Gate]

This is a completely random off-the-top of my head suggestion, but how would knocking down vipers and scarabs by a class each work out?

Make scarabs slightly less efficient to balance out the fact they flak bombers against roach, and caths can now roid xans even if they build lancer...

But I'm far out of my depth here, I'd hate to be the one responsible for doing the stats and I think Banned/others have done a great job of balancing off ziks, xans and terrans this round.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Make corsair co class.


How many times must i say this :/

[jerome]

Yes, let's improve the ziks even more by extending their co fleet. Please do realise that everything has consequences, short-mindedness is fatal.

"How many more times should I say this"

[~RevictioN~]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

Yes, let's improve the ziks even more by extending their co fleet. Please do realise that everything has consequences, short-mindedness is fatal.

"How many more times should I say this"

funniest thing on stretegy forums in a while


but i still feel cath by design is a silly race even if cath were overpowered a bit compared to the other races, game mechanics still wish them the hardest ( Besides newbie terrans ) round. Big caths dominate little caths die there is no way of really entrenching yourself like the other races.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by NitinA

That the upper quartile of players who review the stats before the round starts knew that Cath were the weakest race this round? Or did you have something else in mind?
-NitinA

Funny enough, a horde of experienced veteran experts thought cath is the strongest race. I still think Rob said well by talking about the universe politics affecting racial "strength" or "weakness" in Rinoa's Yet-another-bitch-and-whine -thread for midround cath changes.

[Alki]

Originally Posted by sniborp

Make corsair co class.


How many times must i say this :/

lol? i understand that the scorpion is a more efficient ship than the tarantula, but the zik now has an extra corvette to send along on attacks, same eta as when it was a fighter, and now we are left with the same problem, scorpions are going to be outflakked. How does this solve anything?

edit- jernoob beat be

[Rinoa]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

Funny enough, a horde of experienced veteran experts thought cath is the strongest race. I still think Rob said well by talking about the universe politics affecting racial "strength" or "weakness" in Rinoa's Yet-another-bitch-and-whine -thread for midround cath changes.

I really find it amusing that you and others seem to think i am moaning purely beacause i am maybe not doing well. WRONG! I have talked to all caths in my alliance, and probably another 30 or so on irc in other channels. Along with the say 30 or so others i mailed asking their oppinions i believs i have talked to around 120 caths so far so if anyone is able to discuss how caths in the uni are feeling without being called a whiner it is me. Im actually managing to hang on in top100 as a cath so im actually making all these threads for those that havent been so lucky fss !!! NOT FOR MY OWN GAIN.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Rinoa

I really find it amusing that you and others seem to think i am moaning purely beacause i am maybe not doing well. WRONG!

Now, I am not refering to you doing bad or good. I'm not refering to 805 cathaars in the universe doing bad. What I am saying though, is, that pre-round speculations did promote cathaar as the best race. If you ever saw the statistics, cathaar is (at least was at the tickstart) the prominent race in paid accounts.

Originally Posted by Banned

Ter: 1
Cath: 2.5
Xan: 2
Zik: 1.75

First, we see the prominent race rushing for cruisers. Early on, many caths picked good roids with beetle fleets, and as many claimed good roids with their early cruiser fleets. Mathematically and empirically this means that a lot of incomings were cruisers. Usually, in these scenarios, the universe adapts by everyone building a lot anti-cr.

At this point, we started to witness the obvious rise of zikonians because of the overpowered stealing ability. This, ceteris paribus, looking at the large amounts of cruisers flying around, leads to an increased amount of corsairs (total 90 points of added up armor and damage per cost, which is pretty good), which give three ticks time to reach alliance defences against cruisers. Also, the second most dominant race, xandathrii, arms themselves with bombers.

At the same time, 1up block (1up especially known for their high amount of cathaar players) was fighting a dire war with the Exilition block, and simultaneously giving a night of horror for Angels. What Rob refered to as metagame, started working against caths.

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

The fact is that Cath sucks in "siege" rounds, which involve large alliances kicking the crap out of each other on a nightly basis. In rounds where one side wins with relative ease, Cathaar do much better, because they are probably the best race attack-wise, but the weakest defensively (for their inability to kill anything much).

People who expect the races to remain equal in usefulness in every round are denying the effects of the "meta-game", the alliance politics and attack strategies that have a strong effect on the outcome of a round. This round, I'd say 1up are fairly Cath-heavy, but politics has been against them, thus depressing the performance of Cathaar as a race. Exilition have (until recently) been a stronger performer and are fairly Xan-heavy, boosting Xan as a race. Part of this might be because of their race choice, but it's equally possible that alliance politics are altering the performance of the races.

To sum up, cathaar difficulties are not just because "CATH STATS ARE THE SUCKO WTF REMAKE THEM MIDROUND", but because multiple universe factors have been fighting against them. First, the significant amount of caths - which produces counter-cath fleets. Second, the waging of war proving dire for a major cath-heavy alliance (many of whose players, by the way, went cath because, because they saw cath as the best race). Third, the rise of zikonians, which caused corsairs to swarm the universe.


edit. typo fix.

[Sun_Tzu]

The reason there aren't any more caths in the top10 is because I started drinking.

[jerome]

vBulletin Message

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Tietäjä again.

Stop with all these excellent posts Keizari, I just can't suck you off enough for them

[pig]

To be honest, if you chose cath its your fault, cath are a great race, beta proved this.

HOWEVER

people who chose cath in the main were greedy, they wanted an easy rnd, roiding easily. I have been cath most of my pa carreer, being outnumbered and outgunned, rnd 11 and 12 because there werent many of us, we had quite a good time. I forsee the amount of cath, and saw what a weakness they wo uld be not only for my alliance but for myself. Hence why I chose Xan. I dont regret my choice at all.

If you studied the stats, played the beta you could have seen the obvious weakness cath had. I discussed this with many people. Each race if flawed, but if half the universe goes cath, then what do you expect? The stats are rather equal imo, cath is flawed, as is xan, terran and zik.

Dont blame the system, blame yourself.