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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 13:04   #1
LukeyLove
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Do cats have dreams?

We were having a big discussion in LCH private server an we cudnt decide if cats have dreams.. and if they do.. what do they dream of ? Any suggestions ?
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 13:07   #2
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

I'm pretty sure dogs have dreams. Don't know about cats but the difference in mental capabilities doesn't strike me as too dissimilar so I don't see why not. It's actually a pretty interesting philosophical and psychological question.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 13:07   #3
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

They dream of finding a girl and settling down.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 13:17   #4
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Judging from the bizzare actions my cat used to perform while asleep I'm sure they do.

Probably dillusions of being a sabre tooth tiger or something.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 13:57   #5
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

probably do, but cudnt care less tbh
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:07   #6
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Dreams usually occur under REM sleep (rapid eye movement), and most mammals have this. Only exception I know of are whales and other mammals who live in the sea, as it would be fatal for them to enter REM sleep. During REM sleep you lose control of your muscles, and if that happened to a whale under water, he would drown. But, dreams sometimes occur during stage 3 and 4 of the sleep (SWS 3 and SWS 4). These dreams are rarer, and after waking you often do not remember dreaming.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:11   #7
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukePaul
and after waking you often do not remember dreaming.
i read that as wanking for some reason, then re read it, i was gonna say how can you not remember wanking anyway...
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:13   #8
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

My suggestion would be to not use that ****ing banana.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:34   #9
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

well i tihnk cats do dream, there movements while asleep are similar to a dog moving his legs in a running motion while asleep. My cat seems to randomly stick a paw if trying to climb something or catch something. Some times its bum moves up and down, but have no idea why.



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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:36   #10
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Exclamation Re: Do cats have dreams?

I dream of Jeannie.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:39   #11
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Damn, was just about to start a thread named "Do Marilyn Manson dream?"


Guess that's answered then...
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:40   #12
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

I had a weird dream last night, and yet it was pretty cool at the same time. I'm going to share it with you.

It started off with me and some old dude and this young guy at a beach, and I was swimming over to some wreck somewhere. I had to put some line down or something to get a box out of the water. But this big robot thing came down and tried to stop me. I managed to get out though, and ran away from the robot (who had some little guy rding it). It kept almost getting me, but I got back to the old guy and gave him the box and he drove away.

Then I eventually got away from the robot, but it chased me into a town. I ran around this shopping centre with it chasing me, eventually getting away. This guy dragged me into a shop and went "we've been waiting for you, here, go in there - you know what to do". But I didn't. He gave me these two gloves and threw me into a broom cupboard. I could hear the robot outside (i don't know how it became small enough to fit in the shop), then i saw a crap old bicycle and got on it and rode down a hill and then got away form the robot.

Anyway, the dream then continued to about a month later. I have no idea what the box was for, my mind got bored of that line of thought. Basically more robots arrived, and started zombyifing people, so that they did all the robots wanted. But they essentially acted exactly the same as normal, except they had to be SUPER nice, and offer seats to other people, and allow them to eat their food, and let others live in their houses if they wanted.

I was sitting with the weird old guy and the young guy (we'd evaded being zombyified, clearly) and we had to pretend to be zombie people too, by smiling at everyone and offering anyone we saw our seats. Which got boring. Some old guy and his wife came over and I forgot to offer them my seats and they got really offended.

Anyway, a bunch of other stuff happened that I can't really remember, where I kept almost getting caught for not being a friendly enough zombie, then I went home. And I was in my flat/room place, and these ewok things were walking around my flat, "sucking people's spirits", looking for me. I have no idea where that came from. They didn't see me, and I ran away. But one of them saw me and chased me, and used their vacuum cleaner thing to suck my spirit away. They only got half of it though (so I became kind of half-transparent) and I stole the vacuum cleaner and inhaled all of my spirit or something.

Then some "heavies" came down and took me to this big building, and I met with like the ruler of all the robots and ewoks etc. And we had a chat, and then he told me he wanted to keep me normal, as he had been watching me for some time or something - it made sense in my dream.

Then I woke up.

As dreams go, it was quite a good one.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:51   #13
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

You're obviously a repressed gay running from men and robots. You conclude with being accepted as normal despite not being a nice zombie.

I don't see how anyone could conclude differently.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:55   #14
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

your dreams are weird
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 14:56   #15
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Exclamation Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
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Damn, was just about to start a thread named "Do Marilyn Manson dream?"


Guess that's answered then...
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 16:18   #16
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Yes they dream. Just about every cat I've had has had clear signs of dreaming while in a sleep state. Twitching muscles, running motions, head movements, even occasional meowing have been observed while in this state. I've also experimented with providing external stimuli (that is stroking the cat while it was asleep), if the cat was not already 'dreaming' I found this would induce the state, if it was already dreaming it would often have stronger reactions, faster muscle twitching etc, this I would say shows a cognitive reaction to the stimulation.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 16:55   #17
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

since the answer to the thread is so clearly and perhaps uninterestingly 'yes'

I have decided instead to follow tomkat's example. I dream between 4 to 6 complete dreams a night and remember them all. that's us god's for you. anyhow 'the final dream of last night'

It started in an appartment, modern furnishings (not my taste) white marble floors and a bar, with attractive barman.. pretty swiftly i realised i was not alone but was with my best friend. we were both dressed in our work clothes and were having drinks after work. i had a gin martini (olive) a long island ice tea and a coke. this is quite normal i am the founding member of the 'more than one drink at a time' club.

anyhoo afterwards my friend disappeared simply stating that the apartment was mine. i went to the lift, the apparentment was penthouse and had direct lift access. the lift was essentially a white plastic box in which there was only enough room for one person to sit, strapped in, and reach the buttons. i used the lift to exit the complex and was on the street with my best friend and two girls i did not know, we were clearly all on dates.

i recall thinking this odd at the time as my best friend has a girlfriend of two years and as you might expect with him being my best friend one of his strongest characteristics is loyalty. i decided not to say anything because frankly i do not like his girlfriend. Both couples parted company and i was left with this stranger. she was about 5'7, very slim with dark hair. she was very attractive but i recall thinking she was distinctly underdressed and must be cold as we walked up an enclosed cobble street. i took off my waistcoat and jacket and she put them on. leaving me in shirt and braces.

it seemed this simple act of kindness had an effect upon the girl, obviously of good breeding and there was that 'moment' of knowing we were going to kiss. i lent my head towards her and kiss as i always kiss starting with a kiss to the upperlip and allowing the girl to lean into me before moving my hand to her back and sweeping the girl into an embrace and starting to kiss both lips more forcefully; the aim being to get the girl to 'melt' so she almost has to be held up.

we then headed back towards the appartment and i saw a disjointed steel and glass tower that was so tall i got dizzy tilting my head to look at it. the tower seemed to be perched ontop of a very large petrol station. i entered through a revoliving door, the girl disappeared. i got into the lift but could not find the button for the appartment (it was a black nine on a white circle with black trim). i recall i got out at 7 to take the stairs even though i knew that the stairs did not go to 9 but planning to take stairs to 8 and find another lift.

at 7 i discovered a very large swimming pool in a huge hall with surrounding booth like tables and waitresses serving drinks. i recall thinking the whole place tacky, it was red velvet, but making an effort to be polite to a waitress while i asked for directions to the stairs.

a girl in a baby blue bikini asked me to come swimming and i replied that i was taken. at the foot of the stairs an attractive essex boy in what could only be a bellboy's uniform gave me a cigarette and a large gin. while i became increasing anxious about finding a lift and suddenly became aware that because the tower was disjointed the west side, which i had left would be the only side with a lift going to 9 and that the lifts on the eastside would stop halfway.

while sipping my gin and tonic i woke up.

ta da
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 17:12   #18
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Your dream seems a lot more sophisticated than my "being chased by robots" dream
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 17:17   #19
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Last night, I dreamt that someone had tidied my room. That's it, and It sucked.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 17:28   #20
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

All my dreams seem to involve really cool things happening to me, so I always end up depressed when I wake up and discover they didn't happen. Except that time I picked a fight with a Tyrannosaurus that was wandering around the gardens of Knebworth House. I was glad to wake up from that and discover that I still had a head.

(On topic, of course cats have dreams, you muppet.)
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 17:34   #21
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
since the answer to the thread is so clearly and perhaps uninterestingly 'yes'

I have decided instead to follow tomkat's example. I dream between 4 to 6 complete dreams a night and remember them all. that's us god's for you. anyhow 'the final dream of last night'

ta da
You're a repressed heterosexual.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 17:35   #22
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

I have this Air-Wick Lavender Haze spray stuff here.
Now it may make my room smell all nice, but I'm sure it's giving me cancer.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 17:39   #23
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

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You're a repressed heterosexual.
did i forget to mention i touched up the bellboy?

I must have been censoring my own work
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 18:26   #24
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Did you know that when you think of dreaming/what you're going to dream before you go to sleep you actually remember more dreams. I tried this in my attempts at lucid dreaming and since I rarely remembered a dream before then I was surprised when it actually worked.
Read the book of Stephen LaBerge: Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. It's a step-by=step guide to lucid dreaming. I never completed the whole course, but from what I've experienced his methods seem to work.

Anyway, to get back to the original topic, I do think that mammals dream. When I see our dog sleeping on the floor making weird noises and moving his feet I can't believe but that he's dreaming.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 18:36   #25
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

I never really remember my own dreams. Bar the ridiculously great ones about winning the world series of poker and then having sex with a supermodel in the big pile of money on the table afterwards.

I'm really middle-class
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 18:37   #26
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

its been a long time since i have remembered any of my dreams
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:02   #27
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeyLove
We were having a big discussion in LCH private server an we cudnt decide if cats have dreams.. and if they do.. what do they dream of ? Any suggestions ?
Cats dream about IRC channels filled with clownshoes typing moronic questions about whether they dream.

Obviously.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:17   #28
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Without question, no. That is, unless you are using the word 'dream' in an entirely different way from the way you would use it to describe your own experiences when sleeping. It's pretty crazy to imagine that animals dream in the same way you do, or even have any feelings/experiences that could seriously be compared to human feelings/experiences. There's no real evidence to suggest that they are even conscious, and if they were, it seems highly unlikely that they would have a consciousness that had anything in common with that of humans.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:37   #29
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

what?

why the hell can't cats have emotions? they experience pleasure etc, if thats the only reason you can come up with for cats not dreaming then i think that its quite possible that you are wrong on this one nod
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:39   #30
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
i think that its quite possible that you are wrong on this one nod
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:40   #31
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

hey, i'm just saying that if he can be wrong about the tarantulas he can be wrong about anything
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:41   #32
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Because 'emotion' is a word which is used to describe the inner states of human beings. Given that cats are entirely different from you from a mental point of view, there is no reason to believe there is any kind of correspondence between what they experience and what you experience. Talking about the 'emotions' and 'dreams' of cats is nonsense - you're trying to ascribe your inner experiences to them based on nothing more a tiny bit of behavioral similarity.

Why exactly do you think cats experience 'pleasure'?
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:42   #33
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

purring?
and to say that they don't experience emotions because emotions are a purely human concept is very limiting of you
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:45   #34
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
purring?
System.out.println("meeeeow!");
Quote:
and to say that they don't experience emotions because emotions are a purely human concept is very limiting of you
I'm not sure why. The burden of proof generally lies with the one making the positive claim - I've seen no real evidence that animals have 'mental states' at all, let alone ones that are comparable to those of humans.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:48   #35
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

they don't have to be comparable, you stated that cats do not dream, unless you define dream in a different way for cats and humans, to include and reject the word 'emotions'
all i said way, that to claim that cats do not experience emotion is false, therefore your argument is invalidated *shrug*

animals DO experience emotions, they experience pleasure at seeing humans that they know, they experience fear if they are being attacked

just because the emotions aren't as complex as human emotions, doesn't mean that they don't exist
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:54   #36
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
animals DO experience emotions, they experience pleasure at seeing humans that they know, they experience fear if they are being attacked
No they dont.





Do you see the problem?
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 19:56   #37
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

yes, we will have to agree to disagree until one of us comes up with evidence that animals do or do not experience emotion, which i can't search for now as i finish work in 5 minutes.

SO, if anyone would like to google it for me and prove nodrog wrong, feel perfectly welcome
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 20:12   #38
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because 'emotion' is a word which is used to describe the inner states of human beings.
no its not.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 20:19   #39
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog

Why exactly do you think cats experience 'pleasure'?

Am I alone in the fact that I have actually seen 'happy' cats and 'sad' cats. The same applies to dogs, moreso in fact. I can see it by looking at their faces. I am not projecting my inner anything on them - I can see that they are either enjoying or not enjoying a situation. When a dog wags its tail I think it is happy. Is happiness an emotion?
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 20:21   #40
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

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Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Am I alone in the fact that I have actually seen 'happy' cats and 'sad' cats. The same applies to dogs, moreso in fact. I can see it by looking at their faces. I am not projecting my inner anything on them - I can see that they are either enjoying or not enjoying a situation. When a dog wags its tail I think it is happy. Is happiness an emotion?
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 20:28   #41
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

I think we're missing the larger point here. The burden of proof lies on nodrog to demonstrate to me that other people have emotions.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 20:37   #42
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

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Originally Posted by LukeyLove
We were having a big discussion in LCH private server an we cudnt decide if cats have dreams.. and if they do.. what do they dream of ? Any suggestions ?

Yes they do.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 21:22   #43
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

If dogs can dream about Disneyland then why cant cats?
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 21:29   #44
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

Because anything based on disneyland is a spurious lie. They pretend like Mickey is real, and then he takes his head off. *sniff* and then I didn't know what to believe in.
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 21:33   #45
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

when i first saw that happen as a small child it was a man in a cartoon bear costume, i cried because i thought the bear had eaten a man
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 22:05   #46
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

rapid eye movement on all mammals, same brain activity when asleep and when awake suggesting a 'dreaming' state - they probably dream about sex too for all dreams are sexual in nature..
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 22:08   #47
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

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Originally Posted by demiGOD
all dreams are sexual in nature..
What? Are you a reincarnation of Freud or something?
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 22:12   #48
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

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What? Are you a reincarnation of Freud or something?
his logic is as good as freud's.

"i want to have sex with my mother therefore everyone does"
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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 22:55   #49
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

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Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Am I alone in the fact that I have actually seen 'happy' cats and 'sad' cats. The same applies to dogs, moreso in fact. I can see it by looking at their faces. I am not projecting my inner anything on them - I can see that they are either enjoying or not enjoying a situation. When a dog wags its tail I think it is happy. Is happiness an emotion?
It depends what you mean by happy. The specific idea of humanity you seem to be projecting onto animals isnt universally accepted for talking about humans, let alone animals. The problem lies mainly in the way we learn words which describe inner states. For a newborn baby, their inner world will have very little structure until they have learned a language, which will then determine the way they view themselves and what they experience. Describing animals as experiencing emotions is dependent upon a very Western way of thinking about the self, and its states.

For example, one might ask whether it is possible to be jealous unless you have been taught what jealousy is. It's not a bad question - the Japanese have a word which describes an emotion called 'amae', vaguely translating as "indulgent dependency" - have you ever felt it? Has anyone who can't speak Japanese? To take a larger scale example, the anthropologist wrote several papers on research she had carried out involving a tribe of people called the Ifaluk, largely centering on the way they described their emotions. One of her discoveries was that these people just did not have a word which corresponds to the English idea of 'emotion' - the way they view their mental states and emotions has very little in common with us. One of the major differences is that, in English, we tend to think of emotions in a 'neutral' way - concentrating on what we think we feel, rather than on the circumstances that caused us to feel that way or the moral evalutation of these states. However, the Ifaluk tie their 'emotions' to what we call 'morality' in a way that is iinseperable. Rather than having a word for anger, they have a word "song" which describes "justifiable anger" (experienced by people in situations where someone has done them harm), a word "'tipmochmoch" which describes undirected anger such as that felt by someone in a bad mood, another word for the anger which is caused when numerous small things pile up on someone, and so on. Would it make sense to say that an Ifaluk experienced what we call 'anger' or 'sadness', let alone a cat or a dog? Could someone who spoke the Ifaluk language even ask that question in a way we would understand?

Imagine trying to describe what you mean by 'happyness' to someone who has never encountered a word corresponding to 'happyness', has never been happy, has never met anyone who has been happy, and has never read any books about happy people - it would be like trying to describe sound to a man who is deaf. Does happyness even describe something definite? I might experience 'happyness' when I fall in love, and I might experience "happyness" when I solve a difficult maths problem which I've been working on - but do the actual emotions I feel in either situation have anything in common except that I have learned to use the word 'happyness' to describe them? It's unlikely that the sadness felt by someone who has lost a lover is identical to that felt by someone who suffers from depression, and yet they will both describe their mental states using similar terms because the English language does not allow them any other option.

The coherent communication of inner states is only really possible between people who have had similar experiences, and share a common language which divides up mental life in a commeasurable way. And all the above difficulties arise when we are talking about communication between people who are physiologically identical. Yet, people think that English 'emotion' words can also sensibly be used to describe a creature such as a cat, which not only hasn't shared any experience with a human, but also has a completely different physiological and mental structure. It just seems rather unlikely.

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Unread 9 Feb 2005, 23:03   #50
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Re: Do cats have dreams?

they still dream and purr when they're happy.
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