Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Orion Treet

You are asuming they wil remain this way, but they will be this way at the start, the alliance will be helping the Zik build up a strong fleet, which can in turn be used for even more effective alliance def.

Even so it is efficient. If an alliance is in a 'war', then it really does have better use for its resources than helping its zik players build up. The alliance as a whole would grow quicker without having to do that.

[Orion Treet]

How do you sudgest the alliance uses a zik player then? If they let him fend for himself then there is even less chance that he'll be of use. And it's not a waste of alliance recourses, if you don't need those ships at the moment where else would they be used for?

[MAdnRisKy]

they wouldn't use them..... I think is the point.

Save one maybe 2 uber ziks, destined to win the round once the roiding phase slows down

(sending stealers only in big battles which are heavily flakked to radically jump score)

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Orion Treet

How do you sudgest the alliance uses a zik player then? If they let him fend for himself then there is even less chance that he'll be of use. And it's not a waste of alliance recourses, if you don't need those ships at the moment where else would they be used for?

If I were an alliance HC, I would be very tempted to tell the members not to go zik.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

Xan could maybe use a small firepower tweak (for instance -1 vsh armour +2 dmg?). would make for fun early pre scan beetles versus vsh fights

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Pulsar too for that matter.

Less armor, more damage.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Bashar

This is why no MO's will ever want to send zik stealers on defence, and as a result why I suspect many alliances will try to dissuade their members from going zik.

Unless the person with incoming is Zik...

The problem with Zik isn't that it sucks, it's that it sucks from the normal playing point of view. You have to break a few paradigms to play it effectively.

The main problem I see in the stats is ziks. In my view, in their current form, they are not fitting in well with the other races.

They do indeed not fit in well.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Terrans in the beta seemed to concentrate on de and above, (i saw no harpys, a few frigs and limited numbers of phoenix in any of the betas). Terran armour for me is stupid, I got roided many times from then sending BS/DE and despite having hundreds of peacekeepers and thousands of fireblades, their numbers were barely touched. I think its quite harsh that dragons target cruisers and maybe some init changes in xan fi, and damage upgrades on fireblade/pulsar and PK

[Gerbie]

About the pod fleets sent to ziks: if I go zik plz try. The most efficient fr/cr/bs pod has damage efficiency of 45.9. That means I get 40k resources worth of ships for every roid I lose. And that's only early on in the game because from what I've seen I will easily steal all kinds of ships during the game. And most of those ships kill or emp before the pod caps.

I don't expect big ziks to use escorts a lot more than other races. Big ziks won't need escorts: they will just need to build their fleet around the ships they have. Whenever you cap new ships you have to look realy carefull what your current weaknesses and strengths are, what your tactics should be and what ships to order to make it better than it is now. A big zik can take losses if that means he caps ships and roids. His target will know that and run. He won't need escorts to convince his target to run.
There might be a few big ziks doing extremely well. But when you are a big zik it is harder to cap fleet. It's the smaller ziks that can attack smaller targets that are most likely to profit from the zik stealing ability.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

About the pod fleets sent to ziks: if I go zik plz try. The most efficient fr/cr/bs pod has damage efficiency of 45.9. That means I get 40k resources worth of ships for every roid I lose. And that's only early on in the game because from what I've seen I will easily steal all kinds of ships during the game. And most of those ships kill or emp before the pod caps.

Eh? I think you need to recheck the maths. The best way to work it out is (total resources for ship)/(damage/50)

So, the values are:

Demeter: 11,111 Resources/roid.
Leviathan: 17,647
Mosquito: 14,706
Hornet: 10,882
Dagger: 12,656
Sabre: 12,600
Privateer: 8,824
Ironclad: 11,765

Quite where you got 40k from I have no idea.

edit: Just to clarify, this means 40-70 ticks of roid mining, which is not a lot, it is less than 3 days, so if you don't get the roids back within 3 days, you have most definitely lost out (and that is if you ignore roids you would have got anyway - which is obviously not quantifiable - unless you attack with the new pods when you wouldn't otherwise have done so, and get the roids with that).

[Banned]

Beta revision 6. If no one points out any silly holes in this within tickstart of the public preview tomorrow it turns into release candidate 1.

beta5->beta6
* Change Corsair target from Frigate to Cruiser.
* Change Thief target from Cruiser to Frigate.
* Change Buccaneer init from 43 to 42.
* Change Marauder target from Battleship to Destroyer.
* Change Pirate target from Destroyer to Battleship.

The Zikonian changes are largely to make them more playable. The Corsair targetting CR means they become valuable for MOs; It's the only eta 8 anti-CR. Sure it won't save the roids, but it will increase their cost, which is often enough. The Thief now hits FR, allowing Zik to grow their FR fleet on standard attacks. The Marauder/Pirate target swap improves defense against DE/BS.

* Increase Scarab Damage from 95 to 100.
* Change Scorpion Type from Norm to EMP.
* Change Scorpion Target from Battleship to Corvette.
* Change Scorpion Init from 8 to 2.
* Change Scorpion Armor from 235 to 175.
* Change Scorpion Damage from 100 to 195.
* Change Tarantula init from 8 to 9.
* Change Viper type from Norm to EMP.
* Change Viper Init from 7 to 1.
* Decrease Viper Armor from 75 to 45.
* Increase Viper Damage from 30 to 55.

Scorp changes similar to those proposed by MAd. The point about Cath being able to EMP all 6 classes was very valid, and has been followed up on. Mind you, the Viper isn't terribly good, so it's not some one-stop solution to DE incoming.

* Increase VsharrakFighter cost from 300*3 to 325*3.
* Increase DaeraithPulsar Damage from 5 to 6.
* Increase DaeraithPulsar cost from 350*3 to 375*3.
* Increase CuldassaArrowhead Armor from 14 to 15.
* Increase CuldassaArrowhead Damage from 22 to 23.
* Drop KthalFireblade cost from 850*3 to 800.
* Drop Xentrallis Peacekeeper Damage from 200 to 190.
* Increase Dagger Damage from from 8 to 11.

Xan are easily the stats I'm least sure of. I can't see any way to improve the Vsh without breaking it. If I up damage and drop armor, it becomes Beetlefood, if I just up damage, Terrans become way too easy to attack.

* Drop Harpy Armor from 21 to 18.
* Drop Leviathan Armor from 1000 to 950.
* Increase Leviathan Damage from 425 to 450.

Just some tiny balancing for Terran. The Harpy drop is to make it easier for Xan to hit them without a horde of Sents. The Leviathan changes killed me to make, but they were necessary.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Demeter: 11,111 Resources/roid.
Mosquito: 14,706
Dagger: 12,656
Privateer: 8,824

These pods can't be used for that purpose.

Leviathan: 17,647
Hornet: 10,882
Sabre: 12,600
Ironclad: 11,765

Seeing all these lined up (I was aware of it being about ~50 ticks earning) makes me want to drop damage on these pods.

Quite where you got 40k from I have no idea.

When it comes to stats, everyone's got a magic hat.

Currently 50 ticks means you have to hit back aggressively. If it's Hornets, you're in trouble, because you can just flak with Mars. If it's Leviathans, you have longer to recap and you can build those cool Pirates to flak.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Banned

These pods can't be used for that purpose.

I wasn't trying to show they could be used for anything, I was just trying to point out that 40k resources per roid lost is a country mile from the mark.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Bashar

I wasn't trying to show they could be used for anything, I was just trying to point out that 40k resources per roid lost is a country mile from the mark.

I don't care, I was by far more interested in them for that purpose.

[Banned]

beta6->release candidate 1
* Change Cutter target from FI to DE.
* Change Clipper target from DE to FR.

Now if you get free roids off a Zik you're giving them off-class pods.

[Cochese]

Fighter flooding Ziks again!!

[Chika]

after looking at the stats, I have to say that xans have a very unfair advantage.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Banned

Now if you get free roids off a Zik you're giving them off-class pods.

With the zik thing bothers me. It means that anyone can xp hoar off ziks, a planet with 10 pods can roid a zik if he doesn't get defence, it should not be that way. Every race should have a chance to defend themselves. I should have done private beta.

[Chika]

do ziks lose ships when they steal?

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Chika

after looking at the stats, I have to say that xans have a very unfair advantage.

How so?

Originally Posted by Chika

do ziks lose ships when they steal?

No.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Banned

How so?

They make the least amount of sacrafice in battles, and they shoot before everyone except Cath. they have a Fr that shoots Fi at init 4. That alone is horrific. They virtually own ziks cause Ziks can't kill fi. They own terran because they shoot to lateand they own cath early, and late round.

To understand me. Look at the stats with simplicity, don't look at all that armor cost stuff Look at the Race, what it has to offer, and then look at how each race can stop them. Defence from ally against Fi is futile, unless its another Xan. THUS making Xan a heavily choosen race, thus an "F" mark in the stats category, because we will have another "Most of top 100 is one Race" round.

[Proxi]

I have to say i disagree with xan being too powerful. The way things are atm their fighters will get chewed up by pegs etc. The xentrallis is ok, but is a long way from being able to stop terran bs incoming entirely. The fi are also easily edible by beetles.

The way things are at the moment, the only "easy" target for a xan is zik, (assuming no/little stolen ships) who are fairly roidable by everyone anyway.

[Chika]

Your arguement is blanketed by my first statement in my last post: "They make the least amount of sacrafices in battles"

[lokken]

I know i really wouldn't be fussed by sacrificing a few FI in a battle.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Chika

Defence from ally against Fi is futile, unless its another Xan. THUS making Xan a heavily choosen race, thus an "F" mark in the stats category, because we will have another "Most of top 100 is one Race" round.

Beetles, Sentinels and Harpies are all possible alliance defense against Xan FI. Incidentally, Harpies are pretty good alliance defense. I had a really good look at Xan FI after you posted this and if anything it looks more underpowered than over.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by bashar

This is why no MO's will ever want to send zik stealers on defence, and as a result why I suspect many alliances will try to dissuade their members from going zik..... Ziks won't contribute to the defence, they will be extras in the defence

er... your asuming that the zik is sending zik ships arent you.
how naive

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Banned

Beetles, Sentinels and Harpies are all possible alliance defense against Xan FI. Incidentally, Harpies are pretty good alliance defense. I had a really good look at Xan FI after you posted this and if anything it looks more underpowered than over.

erm i wouldnt send my harpies into sentinels... maybe you would. ill accept sents maybe but thats huge losses right there... maybe you havent handled many def calls before... and beetles are emp... wow scary, i'd still land if i was the attacker

but yes make xan fi stronger your absolutely right.... i mean its in my intrest ill be going xan

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Banned

Beetles, Sentinels and Harpies are all possible alliance defense against Xan FI. Incidentally, Harpies are pretty good alliance defense. I had a really good look at Xan FI after you posted this and if anything it looks more underpowered than over.

ok. I said unless it was another Xan. by mentioning sentinals, you only support my arguement.
Harpies: shoot after sents . beetles: emp. Speaks for itself. Yeah a cath who hoars beetles will be effective, but any race that hoars anything is effective in that area, and tend to be weak/moderate in others.

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by Iceman

erm i wouldnt send my harpies into sentinels... maybe you would.

If you were in my alliance, you'd send your harpies whereever the hell I told you to send em

On a serious note, I see some greate potensial in teamups with the current stat tweaks applied.. Im going to test them out, and Ill get back on it sometimes during the beta :-)

[Iceman]

hehe lol i didnt know 1up was so suicidal

[demiGOD]

Originally Posted by TheRat

On a serious note, I see some greate potensial in teamups with the current stat tweaks applied.. Im going to test them out, and Ill get back on it sometimes during the beta :-)

*
-Beetle - Viper - Mosquito combination will OWN any Xan player
-Cath/Zik was seen to be a good team-up
-Cath Black Widows and Scorpions and a formidable amount of support cruisers might finally be the Cathaar answer to the Terran nemesis
-Zik still seems useless alone

*notes reviewed from last beta's Cathaar battle reports (not available now btw, soz heh - some might still have their own reviewed battle reports from last beta)

[Banned]

Originally Posted by demiGOD

*notes reviewed from last beta's Cathaar battle reports (not available now btw, soz heh - some might still have their own reviewed battle reports from last beta)

I have all the battlereports that were linked in #beta or either of my galchannels.

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by demiGOD

-Zik still seems useless alone

Ill be VERY suprised if a zik doesnt win R13. It will however be a formidable player who does it, as it required great skill and activity, aswell as a great galaxy. (Let me refer to jessie speaking of hyperactive nutcase kileman).

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by demiGOD

-Cath/Zik was seen to be a good team-up

This is indeed a very interesting teamup I suspect will do very well in the main round. It deos require toplevel activity for them both tho.

Originally Posted by demiGOD

-Cath Black Widows and Scorpions and a formidable amount of support cruisers might finally be the Cathaar answer to the Terran nemesis

The scorpion doesnt target battleships anymore, so thats not the case. The black widow does however, and has had a serious upgrade of damage. Its yet again (imho) the best ship in the game as it was last round. I suspect we can see the best cat players going for fi/co fleets early on, and moving to de/cr once they have created a solid foundation with their fi/co fleets.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by demiGOD

Beetle - Viper - Mosquito combination will OWN any Xan player

lol yeah cause arrows wont pwn vipers... oh wait they will oh okay i see now you are wrong lol glad we cleared that up
and as for beetles? your gonna need a fair few to stop xan's fi, i mean they mass that $#!t

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by Iceman

lol yeah cause arrows wont pwn vipers... oh wait they will oh okay i see now you are wrong lol glad we cleared that up
and as for beetles? your gonna need a fair few to stop xan's fi, i mean they mass that $#!t

There's a very interesting posibility there. Include some roach in that fleet, and your opponent may think you are cr-attacking him. This way you can get lucky and be met by scarabs, or just sacrifice some roach to stop the other ships from dieing. Even if he guesses what you are doing, its still a great combo.

[Iceman]

numbers will sell out that kind of attack i would imagine, or like i say you wont have enough beetles. and if they do find out what your sending (guessing or old fashioned fleetscan ) then they just have another tick to get def against it

[demiGOD]

Originally Posted by TheRat

The scorpion doesnt target battleships anymore, so thats not the case.

*sigh* Didn't catch Banned's earlier post on current changes. Might have to do more testing on Terran v. Cath.

btw, I like the Black Widows upgrade

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Iceman

er... your asuming that the zik is sending zik ships arent you.
how naive

Yes I am, and if you care to read my post on page 2 of this thread, I explain perfectly well there why I think that. Try reading a thread before accusations of naivity come up.

[Iceman]

yeah dude i read your seminar. i disagree with that one thing, zik will have others ships, ziks could jgp random ppl and give them def just to steal the attacker ships and come out unscathed etc etc... plus in any situation where zik takes heavy losses, they will be compensated with the gain of other ships, and most people would accept those losses of zik ships as a trade for a more diverse army of other races.

the way i see it zik will have a hard time yes but they are equally vunerable as they are dangerous.

and whats this about saying zik wont have enough cath to help them steal ships.... where are you pplz mates man lol.

[TheShadowMan]

Originally Posted by Iceman

ziks could jgp random ppl and give them def just to steal the attacker ships and come out unscathed etc.

this will not happen. dont kid your self haha

do you think a zik will sit there a jpg random planets, man i laffed my ass in work and now everyone is lookin at me strange.

[noah02]

How can terran attack alone with destroyers for you beta buffs out there?

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by noah02

How can terran attack alone with destroyers for you beta buffs out there?

Find a lonely Xan planet?

[jerome]

Originally Posted by TheShadowMan

this will not happen. dont kid your self haha

do you think a zik will sit there a jpg random planets, man i laffed my ass in work and now everyone is lookin at me strange.

Yes, I do.

Though random planets, I think not. Remember that the line between insanity and genius is rather thin.

[Iceman]

actually i believe shadowmans question was aimed at me and na i was just making the point that there are a million situations where zik can just leech.

lol im glad you found an amusing concept and that was its purpose

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

Yes, I do.

Though random planets, I think not. Remember that the line between insanity and genius is rather thin.

Big nubs are jgp'ed all the time, to find the perfect moment to strike.

[TheRat]

And quoting jerome was ofcourse not what I intended there, bah.

[Iceman]

yeah i jgp random pplz.... get on the back of other attacks haha

similar concept

[Proxi]

Originally Posted by Iceman

yeah i jgp random pplz.... get on the back of other attacks haha

similar concept

Why bother when you could just use your fleet slot more efficiently in an alliance attack/def or on a target of your own, where you will recieve max cap?

Also noah, caths are easy mean for the terran DE

[Iceman]

sometimes you are ter and your alliance picks a gal with no cath
its not always that simple aye

[Banned]

Release Candidate 2. These stats are not live in the public preview.

Originally Posted by rc1->rc2

* Change Cutter Init from 10 to 7.
* Change Clipper cost from 7.25k/7.25k/11.5k to 7.75k/7.75k/10.5k.
* Change Buccaneer cost from 4k/4k/5.5k to 3.75k/3.75k/6k.
* Change Thief cost from 4.5k/4.5k/7k to 4.75k/4.75k/6.5k

Improves Zik anti-DE. Other than that, it's just a correction of cost to type.

* Change Viper cost from 4k/4.5k/4k to 3.75k/5k/3.75k

Correction of cost ratio.

* Increase Wyvern Armor from 445 to 460.
* Increase Demeter Armor from 160 to 200.
* Increase Demeter Damage from 135 to 155.
* Increase Demeter cost from 12k/9k/9k to 14k/10k/10k.

The Wyvern is slightly improved to prevent it from being completely frozen every time a BW looks at it. The Demeter is beefed up to make Syren/DE fleets more viable.