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Unread 21 May 2010, 02:35   #251
Sun_Tzu
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Shev View Post
If there is no inclination to run away then you can follow a real fleet with a fake fleet, destroy your target and then max cap the next tick anyway.

I'm not saying the idea is hugely flawed, just that the interaction with Xan fleets seems to favour the players who want to farm downwards.
Well, if you follow it with another fleet, you've wasted 2/3 fleets to roid one small target, and because you destroyed their fleet, you've also made your own cap nearly worthless. If however this type of abuse does turn out to be too rampant, you can always re-introduce the 20% bashlimit and enforce automatic recalling if a target falls below say 15% of your value while you're on way.

But honestly, I doubt this would be a very major problem.
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Unread 30 Jul 2010, 23:25   #252
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Re: Alliance player limit

Sticky plz.
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Unread 1 Aug 2010, 23:53   #253
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Re: Alliance player limit

The problems are not in the alliance sizes.
The problems are the peoples attitudes.

People are not willing to work for their galaxys/alliances and for the games good, when it comes to game play for example or educating a new player.

When the core of the game isnt mature enough to think beyond their own success. The game runners can enforce the attitudes in right place via code solutions ingame.

Give a reward from recruiting and educating a player. This can be made thrue a friend list also, not only by alliances.
Give a reward for attacking experienced player versus a new joiner.
Give a reward attacking higher tire alliance, creating that competition on top.
Give a reward for active suggestion/feed back/game improvement ideas.
Give a reward running an alliance or running a galaxy. For example provide tools/forum sections/advertisement base/give own personal pa mail address/what ever could attract people on making the efforts. Perhaps even some free credits?
Give a reward for players nominated to minister/bc/hc tasks.
Give a reward for answearing to help questions (hello create an universal forum section ingame for questions and aid needed)
Give alliances bonuses with an open recruitment.
Give alliances bonuses whom accept totally new players.
Build alliance constructions/extra tools and divide the costs to playerbase amount. Support the smaller/starting alliances by lower costs.
Give a punishment from attacking too small players. Forces people to fight with another players on the same levels of gaming. You can still attack whom u wish, but on a long run taking the punishment is not wise.
Give a punishement for targeting low tire alliances. Forcing alliances to fight on their own fields of levels. You can still attack whom u want, but on a long run taking the punishment is not wise.
Give a punishment for exiling a galaxy, even kill the option entirely.
Give a punishment for leaving an alliance midround.
Give a punishment from cheating.
Give a bonus from using forums/chat tools/the things to keep the game alive in between ticks. Reward active participation to community, do not enforce this how ever.
Create ranks/tables for made kills, lost units and so on, reward players whom sacrificed own fleet for kills, for example alliance wars. And add the attackers salvage for battles sake. Makes the EMP race more usefull aswell.

And the list goes on...

Obviously we can reward the winners then aswell more happily, when we know they have earned it.

All this will help new players enter and stay aswell! Might limit oldies play a bit, but same makes it more competetive and challencing as it should be when the time goes on and u learn the game better. Makes it easier to start new alliances and have enough support from the admins to it and ingame by having right circumstances to face.

Obviously enforcing or adding all this is huge amount of effort and fixing and creating them unabusable, but this will enforce the players to play the game "right" and in fair circumstances, weather u choose a top or low tire alliance or weather u are a veteran or a new starting player.

You dont have to make it extreme hard and tricky to work your way up there, just add enough carrots to make u think the choises on your road.
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Unread 2 Aug 2010, 08:03   #254
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
The problems are not in the alliance sizes.
The problems are the peoples attitudes.

People are not willing to work for their galaxys/alliances and for the games good, when it comes to game play for example or educating a new player.

When the core of the game isnt mature enough to think beyond their own success. The game runners can enforce the attitudes in right place via code solutions ingame.

Give a reward from recruiting and educating a player. This can be made thrue a friend list also, not only by alliances. -so a friends list. a referral system, which we have already and could build on. Do you mean you can refer up to x players for a bonus in resources when they reach value xxxxxx? you realise that everyone will refer each other, right?
Give a reward for attacking experienced player versus a new joiner. -XP + increased roid cap
Give a reward attacking higher tire alliance, creating that competition on top. -XP + increased roid cap + more alliance points
Give a reward for active suggestion/feed back/game improvement ideas. -not all ideas are good ideas; also, our problem has never been coming up with ideas
Give a reward running an alliance or running a galaxy. For example provide tools/forum sections/advertisement base/give own personal pa mail address/what ever could attract people on making the efforts. Perhaps even some free credits? -the winners do get this.
Give a reward for players nominated to minister/bc/hc tasks. -why minister? why not just make everyone in the alliance a hc/bc, so you get more resources?
Give a reward for answearing to help questions (hello create an universal forum section ingame for questions and aid needed) -#bootcamp and #support
Give alliances bonuses with an open recruitment. -extremely hard to categorise. Is an alliance who has the limit of players going to be penalised? What's to stop alliances saying they have an open recruitment but rejecting people?
Give alliances bonuses whom accept totally new players. -again, how do you capture this data?
Build alliance constructions/extra tools and divide the costs to playerbase amount. Support the smaller/starting alliances by lower costs. -I have no idea what you mean by this. I don't see how extra tools have extra costs? do you mean that smaller alliances should have cheaper alliance constructions?
Give a punishment from attacking too small players. Forces people to fight with another players on the same levels of gaming. You can still attack whom u wish, but on a long run taking the punishment is not wise. -XP + increased roid cap for attacking bigger planets? bash limit, too.
Give a punishement for targeting low tire alliances. Forcing alliances to fight on their own fields of levels. You can still attack whom u want, but on a long run taking the punishment is not wise. -XP,increased roid cap, alliance points system
Give a punishment for exiling a galaxy, even kill the option entirely. -exiling from a galaxy, do you mean? like, paying a huge amount of resources?
Give a punishment for leaving an alliance midround. -say, not being able to join an alliance for 48 ticks and reducing the score you give future alliances?
Give a punishment from cheating. -closing your account
Give a bonus from using forums/chat tools/the things to keep the game alive in between ticks. Reward active participation to community, do not enforce this how ever. -this seems pretty vague. "On IRC, have some resources?". I'm not sure I understand.
Create ranks/tables for made kills, lost units and so on, reward players whom sacrificed own fleet for kills, for example alliance wars. And add the attackers salvage for battles sake. Makes the EMP race more usefull aswell.
-We do have this data. The EMP race is useful. Why should we reward suiciders; most people believe suiciders who play for xp and not for value should be punished anyway?
And the list goes on...

Obviously we can reward the winners then aswell more happily, when we know they have earned it.

All this will help new players enter and stay aswell! Might limit oldies play a bit, but same makes it more competetive and challencing as it should be when the time goes on and u learn the game better. Makes it easier to start new alliances and have enough support from the admins to it and ingame by having right circumstances to face.

Obviously enforcing or adding all this is huge amount of effort and fixing and creating them unabusable, but this will enforce the players to play the game "right" and in fair circumstances, weather u choose a top or low tire alliance or weather u are a veteran or a new starting player.

You dont have to make it extreme hard and tricky to work your way up there, just add enough carrots to make u think the choises on your road.
I answered and I think the game does pretty well against your current suggestions
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Unread 2 Aug 2010, 08:50   #255
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Re: Alliance player limit

I think however that it's a bad idea to make the game the type of a "I sat on help channel for 8 hours a day and answered pointless questions made to me by my friends in order to obtain in-game resourced from the unbiased multihunters/support team/alki's mum" -system.
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Unread 2 Aug 2010, 18:08   #256
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I answered and I think the game does pretty well against your current suggestions
Yeah good things Appocco, just things that are not taken very far away. The things u mention do not "enforce" the things I mentioned. They just give a bonus. They do not yet make u think about the other options really. They are not taken far enough. Only imagination and coding skills are limiting multiple ways to encourage "good/prefered" play.

Yeah most of what I will be saying is not tought thrue till the end and need some more imagination and toughts how to keep them extras unabused.

Here a few examples:
Passport system helps to determine whos a new player. You had it done right? Also I didnt think of resources actually, more "the style of support planets/moons" allowing to defend outside tag, beeing able to share scans and similar. Yeah there is lot to think how to make this not abused. Perhaps the mentor can add the minions and can defend them, see their status. But the minions cant help fleet wise, perhaps they can still report statuses or so, basicly help your new friends to stay untouched and get something little back from it.

With a bigger roid cap u can also have some sorta fleet moral (decreasing when attacking smallies, staying when attacking proper sized players, as suggested before) this will boost the effects. Currently its cheap/wise enough to make so called sure lands on smallies, rather than check the defence capabilities of an top alliance. Or why do u think the low tire alliances are under constant fire?

perhaps a team to finalise thrown suggestions to usable form? some free credit/pa material for support of the game.

really lame response, the community has repeatedly told there isnt enough people cabable/willing to run alliances, hence so few of them. So proper help and carrots to do so would be nice. Not all alliances or gals need to play from the win either. You can have a few casual choises aswell increasing the playing numbers. Yeah its good to support competetive play aswell, but thats pretty much keeping our numbers low, as there are very few cabable to lose their lifes for good.

Again the ministers can have something else beyond money aswell, ie. option to see gal fleets, things to help organisation, things to make it easy to be a halping ingal minister helping the gal grow. :P Perhaps the minister of war can gain xp from launched ingal missions or the whole gal getting some gal fund bonus from covered incs. Well I am little lack of imagination right now, but u get the point. Obviously if whole alliance is set as bcs/hcs u divide the bonuses with them, or simply all has the same tools available. "Obviously they are then giving the help to run the alliance." :P I am quite sure not all alliances will go for this and the initial point remains.

the problem is IRC is not ingame. You need to open up irc or the comunit (basicly an outer tool) to get your answears, alltho agreed with comunit added its pretty well covered. Perhaps naming a comunit to something else would be wise aswell :P

Alliances having the limit aint getting penalised, they have the gains of a full tag and full fleets in use, they just dont get any extra help beyond that. The ones openly recruiting are allowing the players to join alliances and gain their help. What is the bonus of a recruiting alliance, I cannot think of currently, but it can be something as simple as an advertise space of their own, making it easier to fullfill their tag.

Yeah I mean cheaper alliance constructions, if we make up some additional tools beyond the ones automaticly in use. The alliances could have their own research tree and paying method would be the taxes/fund.

Exiling galaxy is still too cheap and a stupid form anyway. We should enforce people on working for their galaxies, stepping up to defend them. Some proper gains for ministers/gcs might help people to step up. Rather have a request system going to MHs to check galaxies activity status if some galaxy is completely inactive and needs to be divided. Otherwise leaving a galaxy shouldnt be made possible. Core players leaving or kicking the noobs is exactly the reason our new players arent staying and why the mixed bps + randoms didnt work at first place.

Lets say leaving an alliance would leave something for the alliance they left out aswell, as thats the one suffering. Lets say a money boost in this case as my head is running on low.

Yeah I dunno how to determine beeing active community/game member and how to reward this, perhaps something as simple as forum ranks/access to modify some minor things. IRC access from x amount of time spent on #planetarion or stats counting your lines (yeah triple it for demort :P) Something to encourage people to interact with eachothers, anything to make the community and irc/forums/blogs/msn circles/face book groups alive around the clock. That will make people stay here and enjoy the other elements than the game itself. Also they will be all free walking advertises enjoying their stay and beeing active users. Again passport system can help here to reward stuff.

Suicide is a damn different thing from making kills. You know you can land also in order to harm others, I can see the game had zero battles during your time. Salvage helps you to rebuild from BATTLING. Having a war is different from suicide, do we get it here finally? It is expensive to harm others currently, as it will affect your own score too, when rival alliances gets an unfair advantage from your efforts made on battle front.

You have the data, put it there on ranks table, so people can be proud of their made kills and show off. One can have 2 ranks lower status than other, but he can boost and say I killed 200 people, so my fleet might have some battle dust on it.

and so on...
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 07:23   #257
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Re: Alliance player limit

How about allowing alliances to receive a percentage of their all members' worth mining as a bonus to the alliance fund on tick per tick basis. (I'm aware of this "benefiting the best the best").
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 10:12   #258
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Re: Alliance player limit

Subsidies? I am disappointed in you, Keizari.
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 11:27   #259
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
How about allowing alliances to receive a percentage of their all members' worth mining as a bonus to the alliance fund on tick per tick basis. (I'm aware of this "benefiting the best the best").
You have just given a description of alliance tax's or were you suggesting this as well as the alliance tax ?
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 17:06   #260
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
You have just given a description of alliance tax's
No. Please read it carefully before posting again. Of course, I probably should have anticipated someone to go derp hurr durr on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Subsidies? I am disappointed in you, Keizari.
Perfectly functional incentive mechanisms.
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 17:12   #261
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Re: Alliance player limit

I'm not sure what you're trying to incentivize other than "get a lot of roids". Nor (consequently) to what end.
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 19:18   #262
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
How about allowing alliances to receive a percentage of their all members' worth mining as a bonus to the alliance fund on tick per tick basis. (I'm aware of this "benefiting the best the best").
I really struggle to see how this is not the existing "Alliance tax", as Gzambo pointed out and you told him to stop posting if he didnt understand you.

Elaborate?
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 20:05   #263
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to incentivize other than "get a lot of roids". Nor (consequently) to what end.
The function isn't to simply put up a "get roids" tag (albeit that's obviously what it does too), but to also provide further encouraging into setting up alliance infrastructure. I think alliances are what makes this game exciting, and adding depth to them as possible would work out a way.

Since you can't donate to any planet in your alliance, the subsidy would inevitably be used to sub either scanners or to build up smaller planets, which are both good things to spend your time doing in an alliance. It could help a larger alliance to provide for their smaller members, or a smaller alliance to provide the essential functions like scanners with resources.

Fundamentally, it's aimed to encourage building up alliances for functions other than simply tag defence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanzi
I really struggle to see how this is not the existing "Alliance tax", as Gzambo pointed out and you told him to stop posting if he didnt understand you.
Like Mzyxptlk said, and like I wrote. It's not a tax, it's a subsidy, a bonus. It isn't reduced from anyone, it is simply added. An added bonus of running an alliance, a subsidy to the smaller planets of the group. I'll choke it more: it isn't reduced from anywhere, it is simply added as in to build depth to the coded alliance structure, to add management to alliances, to add more transparent easy reasons to participate in alliances, and so so.
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Unread 3 Aug 2010, 22:54   #264
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
The function isn't to simply put up a "get roids" tag (albeit that's obviously what it does too), but to also provide further encouraging into setting up alliance infrastructure. I think alliances are what makes this game exciting, and adding depth to them as possible would work out a way.

Since you can't donate to any planet in your alliance, the subsidy would inevitably be used to sub either scanners or to build up smaller planets, which are both good things to spend your time doing in an alliance. It could help a larger alliance to provide for their smaller members, or a smaller alliance to provide the essential functions like scanners with resources.

Fundamentally, it's aimed to encourage building up alliances for functions other than simply tag defence.
I like this idea. I really do. Mainly because this can supply adequate replacement of the -1 eta bonus on alliance defense fleets, which could in turn be used to give clusters there -1 on attack and defense fleets back and thus help reintroducing geography. Someone should go ahead an make a post on suggestions!
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