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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 17:54   #1
dda
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Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

There seems to be a misconception that Americans don't particularly care about the plight of the victims of Katrina. This is simply not true.

Do not be mislead by media. AMERICANS, for the most part, CARE DEEPLY.

In the first four days, American citizens have donated in excess of $219,000,000 to relief agencies such as the Americn Red Cross.

Children have emptied their piggy banks to give the contents to charity. In my neighborhood, children have set up lemonade stants to raise money for Katrina victims. Wealthy individuals have donated large amounts. Private citizens and companies alike have responded generously.

Private individuals and communities are opening their homes and facilities to displaced persons.

In areas where shelters have been opened up, private individuals, churches and civic groups have started taking things to the shelters to make things less heinous for the individuals there.

Americans care and they are showing it in many ways. DO NOT BELIEVE OTHERWISE.

Bad news always overshadows good news in the media. At least in the US.

This is just the tip of the ice berg on the generosity story. There are going to be many, many people who are going to be without homes for a long time. The generosity of the American people will continue even after the press fades away to the next disaster, man made or natural.

You may well question our policies, you may well doubt our leadership, but you should not doubt the generosity of the American people.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 17:55   #2
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

I don't think many people are less than impressed with the general reaction of the general populace (excluding such notable exceptions as those who fired shots at the helicopters in New Orleans).
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 18:11   #3
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

we see the pictures.

they kind of suggest otherwise.

I hate to mention it, but you yourself were more concerned with your holiday. there is still a lack of food and water and even buses to get people out. i see no spontaneous convoys from nearby unafected cities.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 18:15   #4
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

i have no doubt the people care. its your government that seemed to have no idea what to do, and if i would be living in the US i would be really angry about that.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 18:20   #5
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
we see the pictures.

they kind of suggest otherwise.

I hate to mention it, but you yourself were more concerned with your holiday. there is still a lack of food and water and even buses to get people out. i see no spontaneous convoys from nearby unafected cities.

Usually, I tend to agree with you Stephen, but on this occasion I believe there are a couple of points you missed:
1) The National Guard is refusing to let any of the general public with in 17 miles of New Orleans, even to collect relatives or friends
2) The media, given a choice of a photo of lots of people helping each other out and a photo of lots of people beating the shit out of each other, will always print the latter.

And yes, I don't ever remember suggesting the American public doesn't care. Nothing of the kind has been circulating in the British media either.
What HAS been commented on is the incompetance of the US federal government in handling the crisis, and the growing anger and pain that it has lead to.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 18:28   #6
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

i actually came back (after pouring myself a gin i confess) to delete my post. i've decided it was unfair.

chalk it down to the anger i'm still feeling. it was a silly post to make.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 18:37   #7
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

it all depends on how it is spent.
And who sees the benefit.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 18:51   #8
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I hate to mention it, but you yourself were more concerned with your holiday. there is still a lack of food and water and even buses to get people out. i see no spontaneous convoys from nearby unafected cities.
Many of us in America can worry about two things at once.

As to my holiday, I feel it to be my sacred capitalist duty to go on holiday and support the businesses in the affected area by spending lots of money there.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 19:21   #9
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Many of us in America can worry about two things at once.
after petrol prices and those pesky iraqis that bombed the trade centres, the hurricane victims are kinda f'ked then.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 20:45   #10
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

i dont like the second story on the tragedy being "americans fume over rising petrol prices".
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 23:34   #11
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

If, and a big IF, they were white and middle-class, I would have belived you dda.

I really would.
But they seem awefully black to me.
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Unread 3 Sep 2005, 23:50   #12
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
If, and a big IF, they were white and middle-class, I would have belived you dda.

I really would.
But they seem awefully black to me.
Kanye West agrees with you
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 01:54   #13
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

"George Bush doesn't care about black people."

To be honest, he's probably correct.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 03:32   #14
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
If, and a big IF, they were white and middle-class, I would have belived you dda.

I really would.
But they seem awefully black to me.
Believe what you want to believe. That is your right. But you are wrong.
70% of the population of New Orleans was black prior to Katrina. Many of those in New Orleans were poor blacks who moved there from rural areas which were even poorer. Police in New Orleans are the lowest paid of any police force of any major city in the United States. They are not all black.

There are many problems which arose in the evacuation, this was sad. However, I haven't seen any articles about how the whites who were left in the city, and there were many, were given any preference in shelter or in evacuation. Those who stayed who were emergency workers were given better accomodations perhaps and a higher percentage of them may have been white, but those emergency worker who were black were not told to stay outside.

America has some racial problems, though on the whole, I would argue that we are among the LEAST racist countries in the world.

You sit in judgement on Bush as a racist. What do you know of him that bolsters this opinion? You rush to the judgement that anything that negatively effects blacks must be racist. It may be but it isn't necessarily. Poor whites were treated the same as poor blacks. Rich blacks were treated the same as rich whites. Middle class was middle class.

I have always done the German people and the German government the courtesey of not assuming that every time a Jew hits a bump in the German road that it must be because of German anti-semitism. Most countries have pasts of which they may not be particularly proud, but it doesn't mean that all of the citizens of that country forever are bad.

There are residual effects of racisim in the US. Social policies in the US (welfare) have in many instances had the opposite effect by sapping the poor of the incentives to better themselves, but that doesn't mean that the policies are racist.

If you want to tell me that racisim is why blacks were left in New Orleans then are you placing some of the blame on the black mayor of the city for not making a greater effort to evacuate the poor blacks?

If you want to talk about the poor management of the situation, I am with you. If you want to blame it on racism, you are simply wrong.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 17:18   #15
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
You sit in judgement on Bush as a racist. What do you know of him that bolsters this opinion? You rush to the judgement that anything that negatively effects blacks must be racist. It may be but it isn't necessarily. Poor whites were treated the same as poor blacks. Rich blacks were treated the same as rich whites. Middle class was middle class.
OK, we could say Bush hates poor people. Would that make you feel better?
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 17:24   #16
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

I don't think Bush is a racist, he's just totally unconvincing as someone that cares.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 19:17   #17
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

ASG---It would come closer. Bush doesn't care about poor people would be closer still. Bush doesn't really understand what being poor means would be pretty close to the mark.

Vaio---I agree. There is something unfortunate in Bush's facial features which makes all of his smiles look like smirks and makes him look insincere even when he is. If I were his adviser, I would suggest that he not speak in public and that if he had to that he put a bag over his head.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 19:28   #18
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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Originally Posted by dda
If I were his adviser, I would suggest that he not speak in public and that if he had to that he put his severed head in a bag.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 20:09   #19
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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Originally Posted by dda
Believe what you want to believe. That is your right. But you are wrong.
70% of the population of New Orleans was black prior to Katrina. Many of those in New Orleans were poor blacks who moved there from rural areas which were even poorer. Police in New Orleans are the lowest paid of any police force of any major city in the United States. They are not all black.

There are many problems which arose in the evacuation, this was sad. However, I haven't seen any articles about how the whites who were left in the city, and there were many, were given any preference in shelter or in evacuation. Those who stayed who were emergency workers were given better accomodations perhaps and a higher percentage of them may have been white, but those emergency worker who were black were not told to stay outside.
Well said, dda. However, its fairly obvious that if New Orleans had been filled with white people, specially white rich people, then the response would be very different. Its obvious to most journalists here in Norway even, and they aint particulary fast.
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America has some racial problems, though on the whole, I would argue that we are among the LEAST racist countries in the world.
Least? Your law system is famous for its tendeny to discriminate black people (hi Rodney King). In the Vietnam war, black people tended to be sent to frontline units. Just the same frontline units who ofcourse took the heaviest losses (The Soviets did the same with non-russians in vietnam, but thats a different story). Off all groups in the USA, the blacks have never gotten upwards, as a group. They might be handy when it comes to the entertainment industry, but thats about it.
Quote:
You sit in judgement on Bush as a racist. What do you know of him that bolsters this opinion? You rush to the judgement that anything that negatively effects blacks must be racist. It may be but it isn't necessarily. Poor whites were treated the same as poor blacks. Rich blacks were treated the same as rich whites. Middle class was middle class.
Its not about weather Bush is a rascist or not. Its weather his policies/actions are effected by the very racism who american society is plagued with. Like sending troops from Iraq to kill on sight. If this was in a white area, it wouldnt have been done that way.

Quote:
I have always done the German people and the German government the courtesey of not assuming that every time a Jew hits a bump in the German road that it must be because of German anti-semitism. Most countries have pasts of which they may not be particularly proud, but it doesn't mean that all of the citizens of that country forever are bad.
Indeed. But most countries appologize for their actions. Germany has appologized to the poles (like when Brandt kneeled in Warzaw), to the russians, to the jews and so on. Norway has appologized to the native population for mistreatment and persecution. Japan has appologized to the koreans and the chinese for genecide, torture etc (even if they havent followed this up, like history books in school).

So have the US said "We are sorry" to the blacks? No. Have the US said "We are sorry" to the vietnamese? Or to the people of South-America? Oh no. You don't even want to pay compensation for the horrors of Agent Orange. And your law system has denied private lawsuits about it too, just to make it complete.
Instead you censor a black artist, voicing his opinions. So much for the freedom Bush & co speak about all the time.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 22:03   #20
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Everyone's an expert I see.

Interesting points, but comical at best.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 22:04   #21
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Compared to you, yes, then everyone's an expert.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 23:00   #22
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
In the Vietnam war, black people tended to be sent to frontline units. Just the same frontline units who ofcourse took the heaviest losses
This is a false statement, but I'm sure you believe it is true.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 23:37   #23
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

The Vietnam issue has been widely discredited as a myth brought about by "black patriotism" movements in American.
However, the other points are valid - and to suggest that the USA is one of the least racist countries is something of a laugh.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 23:39   #24
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

middle east ring a bell? Hardly pro equality is it (by and large)?

Although America is quite racist compaired with the real countries in Europe.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 23:40   #25
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

I didn't suggest it was the worst, just that it's far from the best.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 23:41   #26
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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Originally Posted by Texan
This is a false statement, but I'm sure you believe it is true.
The statistics Ive seen over american casulaties in Nam, suggest that their death rate was twice as high as their share of the population*.
But if you have a link to official statistic whitch suggest otherwise, I will listen.

*Also credited to the fact that less black americans went to uni etc, and thus had less excuse.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 23:50   #27
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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This is a false statement, but I'm sure you believe it is true.
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Unread 5 Sep 2005, 00:15   #28
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Shush with you Phil, don't tell such things to our american friends
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Unread 5 Sep 2005, 02:19   #29
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Well said, dda. However, its fairly obvious that if New Orleans had been filled with white people, specially white rich people, then the response would be very different. Its obvious to most journalists here in Norway even, and they aint particulary fast.
i believe you are wrong. If it were rich white people who had stayed there, the reason would have been that they stayed to protect their property. Most Americans would have had very little sympathy for them. The government would have been shocked and easily as unresponsive. It the rich white Americans began, almost immediately looting everything in sight, not just food and water and shooting, raping and pillaging as some poor black did, it would have hampered the relief effort in the same way.

A better question is what would have happened if they had been predominatly poor whites? The effort would have been the same if the actions of the stranded were the same.


Quote:
Least? Your law system is famous for its tendeny to discriminate black people (hi Rodney King). In the Vietnam war, black people tended to be sent to frontline units. Just the same frontline units who ofcourse took the heaviest losses (The Soviets did the same with non-russians in vietnam, but thats a different story). Off all groups in the USA, the blacks have never gotten upwards, as a group. They might be handy when it comes to the entertainment industry, but thats about it.
Yes. LEAST. Less racist than Africa. Arabs hate Jews. There is tribal warefare and genocide in many countries. Aparthide is over in South Africa but I am sure that the sentiment remains among many. Less racist than Asia. Jews and Arabs again, both ways. Chinese and Japanese hate each other. Everyone in east asia hates the Koreans. Genocide in Indo-china between Cambodians, Viet Namese, Thai and the poor Hmong are looked down on by everyone.

Europe has always been and seems to still be a massive amount of seething anti-semitic feeling. Albanians have certainly been mistreated. Flemings and Waloons in the Netherlands aren't poster children for getting along. And all of this with only a fraction of the diversity in the US.

In the Western Hemisphere, in almost every country south of the US, the more European you look the better you are treated. Blacks are ill treated in Latin America.

We certainly have our problems but when you consider the amalgamation of cultures and peoples which we have brought in, the result is something of which I am proud. We are getting there. In New Orleans and many other American cities, whites are in the minority. In my city, whites are soon to be 3rd most population. Hispanic (1), Asian (2), European (3). There is a lot of violence in my city. Black on Black. Hispanic on Hispanic. Asian on Asian in the gang culture. There are no Nazi gangs. No skin heads. Stockton is a poor town, in all colors. On my block there are blacks, Hispanics, Asians and whites all living harmoniously.

I think we do a good job. You may think other wise. When Norway becomes only a small percentage Norweigan and largely populated by peoples from all over the world, I will see how Norway handles it. It was only 100 years ago that you broke away from Sweden. Why was this necessary if everyone there gets along so well?

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Its not about weather Bush is a rascist or not. It's whether his policies/actions are effected by the very racism by which American society is plagued. Like sending troops from Iraq to kill on sight. If this was in a white area, it wouldnt have been done that way.
There were no shoot to kill orders given to American troops. Someone may have shot off their mouth and made a rediculous statement. Possibly in an attempt to avoid violence. But this is not proof of racisim. Again, if the actions were the same by whites in the same situation, the reaction would be the same.

Quote:
Indeed. But most countries appologize for their actions. Germany has appologized to the poles (like when Brandt kneeled in Warzaw), to the russians, to the jews and so on. Norway has appologized to the native population for mistreatment and persecution. Japan has appologized to the koreans and the chinese for genecide, torture etc (even if they havent followed this up, like history books in school).
I think you are wrong about the Japanese. I think a major problem between China and Japan at the moment is the Japanese refusal to apologize for Japanese atrocities. Unless this has changed recently.

I believe that Clinton did apologize for slavery and for Japanese internment, I don't know if anyone has apologized to the American Indians or not.

However, I am not a great believer in governmental apologies. It doesn't serve much purpose. However, I do support governmental actions to attempt to equalize the opportunity for all. Our government has made great strides in that area. However, many social programs that you would probably support have turned out, in practice, to have encouraged blacks to stay in poverty.

Quote:
So have the US said "We are sorry" to the blacks? No. Have the US said "We are sorry" to the vietnamese? Or to the people of South-America? Oh no. You don't even want to pay compensation for the horrors of Agent Orange. And your law system has denied private lawsuits about it too, just to make it complete.
Instead you censor a black artist, voicing his opinions. So much for the freedom Bush & co speak about all the time.
Blacks, as stated above.

Viet Namese. Which Viet Namese? The North? The South? I would apologize to people of the south for abandoning them.

Agent orange. Admittedly the government was late in recognizing the effects of agent orange. Lots of whites were affected by agent orange as well. This doesn't support an accusation of racisim. If whie businessmen in New Orleans try to sue the federal, state or local government for what happened, I am confident that they will be met with a stiff resistence from the governments.
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Unread 5 Sep 2005, 02:21   #30
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
middle east ring a bell? Hardly pro equality is it (by and large)?

Although America is quite racist compaired with the real countries in Europe.
All of this really depends on how you're measuring racism. Level of economic advancement by minorities? Number of mixed marriages? Number of police killings per year broken down by race? Is a society where 100% of people are mildly racist better than one where 80% of people are totally unracist and 20% are psychotic NAZIs who go round stabbing Asians?

And so on. Europe is, in many respects, more formally racist than the United States. Most of the European states are ethno-national constructs to one degree or another (there are exceptions) and this lends itself to a certain type of racism.

However, this is not to say that on an individual /attitude level Europeans on the whole (or on average) may be broadly more "tolerant", but as racism is something that varies so wildly within even individual families I don't think many useful generalisations exists at the level of entire nations.

I'd also say that you'd also need to take into account :
- There is a massive discrepancy between people's beliefs and what they'll actually openly admit to (especially on this subject). It may simply be that some people (or people in some areas) are more open with their views.

- Racism is something which is very much dependent on the context it exists. It seems to me that the racism (or non-racism for that matter) of someone who lives in a very homogenuous area is very different to someone who lives in a very racially diverse region.
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Unread 5 Sep 2005, 02:25   #31
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Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Viet Namese. Which Viet Namese? The North? The South? I would apologize to people of the south for abandoning them.
This is an artificial distinction - not least because the United States heavily bombed/attacked both the South and the North.
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Unread 5 Sep 2005, 09:03   #32
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Exclamation Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
The statistics Ive seen over american casulaties in Nam, suggest that their death rate was twice as high as their share of the population*.
But if you have a link to official statistic whitch suggest otherwise, I will listen.
Easily done. US armed forces killed in Vietnam consisted of 12.5% blacks (source: http://www.archives.gov/research/vie...tics.html#race). Black soldier fatality percentages were higher in the earlier years of the war and lower in the later years, but that's the average. Blacks accounted for 13.5% of the military-aged male population of the US during the war. So overall, blacks were slightly less likely to be killed in Vietnam than can be attributed solely to their numerical representation in US society.
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Unread 5 Sep 2005, 09:24   #33
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MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Americans Cared Deeply for Katrina Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
The statistics Ive seen over american casulaties in Nam, suggest that their death rate was twice as high as their share of the population*.

*Also credited to the fact that less black americans went to uni etc, and thus had less excuse.
That footnote just makes you look like a buffoon.
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