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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 06:14   #1
Texan
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More Kyoto Madness

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Wednesday, July 6 was a day to bury good news. The members of the House of Lords select committee on economic affairs could hardly have anticipated the bizarre decision of the International Olympic Committee, which did so much to help their report on "The Economics of Climate Change" to pass unnoticed - and we all know what happened the following day.

In fact, the report is a sensational document. It is, in effect, an attack on the Kyoto accord through its weakest point, the underlying science. The committee savages the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the body on whose "research" Kyoto is built. The language, as befits their lordships, is suitably restrained.

"We have some concerns about the objectivity of the IPCC process," they write, "with some of its emissions scenarios and summary documentation apparently influenced by political considerations. There are significant doubts about some aspects of the IPCC's emissions scenario exercise. . . the Government should press the IPCC to change their approach. There are some positive aspects to global warming and these appear to have been played down in the IPCC reports . . ."

There's much more, but you get the general idea. It's the nearest the Lords ever comes to blowing a raspberry. So who are these people to come up with such heretical ideas? The 13 committee members include two former chancellors of the Exchequer, a former governor of the Bank of England and three distinguished economists. Unlucky for some, you might say, including Sir David Wallace, the vice-president of the Royal Society.

He's the man who wrote, in his official capacity, to journalists in April warning that "there are some individuals on the fringes. . . who have been attempting to cast doubt on the scientific consensus on climate change". He appealed for us "to be vigilant against attempts to present a distorted view of the scientific evidence".

Their lordships have taken him at his word, but their attempt at scientific rigour has produced quite the wrong answer, at least from his point of view. Let's hope he doesn't find himself in the position of that individual on the fringe he's urging us to avoid.

Coincidentally, the very day the Lords report came out, his position and that of the other Kyoto believers was already looking a little shaky. The environment was high up the agenda of the G8 meeting in Gleneagles, and the participants were faced with the choice of either casting America as a polluting pariah or signalling that the Kyoto accord was a blind alley, as President Bush had always maintained. To the surprise of many, they chose the latter.

The Americans had argued that both the science and economics of climate change were highly uncertain; that there was nothing in Kyoto for them other than extra costs; that it would all be pointless if developing countries are excluded from restrictions; and that the solution to global warming lay with technology rather than rationing. The logic of this position overcame the political warm glow that the other leaders might have felt from condemning America (again), and while it's something of an exaggeration to say that the Kyoto accord is dead, it's certainly looking very ill.

It was not helped last week by the US-led coup which launched the snappily named Asia-Pacific Partnership on Clean Development and Climate. Endorsed by Australia, China, India, South Korea and Japan, the plan is to try to find practical solutions rather than don hair shirts. While Robert Zoellick, America's deputy secretary of state, claimed that "we are not detracting from Kyoto in any way", it looked suspiciously as though he was playing Brutus to the Kyoto Caesar.

If so, the European Union countries are playing the other senators, since they have no realistic chance of meeting the targets they have agreed for 2012. Having set themselves unrealistic limits on carbon dioxide emissions, with draconian penalties if they are missed, the outcome promises to be a re-run of the Stability and Growth Pact farce. Breaches of that pact, which was designed to control government deficits for countries in the European single currency, are now so widespread that it's essentially a dead letter.

Since signing up to Kyoto, the EU members have actually drifted further away from their targets. Twelve of the 15 original signatories are so far away that they are virtually certain to miss them, and to incur the eye-watering financial penalties as a result. Only Britain and Germany are closer, thanks to the switch from coal to gas here and the closure of East Germany's heavy industry there. The politicians may claim that we are "on track" to meet our targets, but as a whole the EU is already miles off.

Christopher Horner of the Competitive Enterprise Institute - and one of those people Sir David warned us journalists to beware of - goes further: "Given these penalties, Kyoto seems designed to fail. There is the increasing possibility that sufficient greenhouse gas credits will not exist at any price for the EU to try and buy its way to compliance even if it wished."

This is what their lordships seem to have grasped in their little-noticed report. They conclude: "The Kyoto protocol makes little difference to rates of warming, and has a naive compliance mechanism which can only deter other countries from signing up to subsequent tighter emissions targets. We urge the Government to take a lead in exploring alternative 'architectures' for future protocols, based perhaps on agreements on technology and its diffusion."

Hard though it may be for the hair-shirt brigade and the Royal Society to accept, there's an awful possibility that the Americans were right all along. The Kyoto accord looks like yesterday's approach to yesterday's conception of tomorrow's problem.
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 08:15   #2
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Was there any one with any scientific training at all on the panel? I've only skim read the article but it mentions some economics commenting on climate change. This is not to say that their comments are invalidated, but I'm unsurprised that economists would make these type of remarks.
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 12:27   #3
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Surely the thread should be titled "More Bollocks From Texan"
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 15:38   #4
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Oh well
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 19:13   #5
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

In California we are greatly worried about cow farts and the environment.
www.recordnet.com
Type in cows in the search box to get to article.
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 19:16   #6
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

you need to replace your cows with kangaroos.

(we are not as unaware of the cow fart problem as you may think)
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 19:20   #7
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

In the Isles I would have thought sheep farts would have been the area of concern.
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 19:25   #8
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
In the Isles I would have thought sheep farts would have been the area of concern.
errrr?

why?
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 19:45   #9
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

i think he's under the impression we are a nation of sheep farmers.
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 19:52   #10
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Wales is full of sheep! \o/
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 19:54   #11
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
i think he's under the impression we are a nation of sheep farmers.
curious chaps these colonials
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 21:24   #12
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
i think he's under the impression we are a nation of sheep farmers.
Sheep farmers? I'm sorry, I was trying to imply that you were sheep shaggers.
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 21:26   #13
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

thats just the welsh (stereotypically)

its probably true though
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 22:21   #14
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Who neg-reped me for no given reason for my post here?
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 00:04   #15
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Sheep farmers? I'm sorry, I was trying to imply that you were sheep shaggers.
you mean wales

there are only two peoples in the world ascociated with sheep. it's not very hard to remember which two they are.

do keep up.
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 00:23   #16
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Is Wales not in the Isles any more. Damned sloppy (or damned cunning) of you to have lost them.
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 00:48   #17
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Is Wales not in the Isles any more. Damned sloppy (or damned cunning) of you to have lost them.
it's not all of the Isles though.


HEY I WAS WONDERING WHATS LIVING IN NORTH DAKOTA LIKE SURELY YOU KNOW
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 00:59   #18
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Re: More Kyoto Madness

What time of the year are you talking about?
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 01:01   #19
Yahwe
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Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
What time of the year are you talking about?
i see i have taught you some of my stubborness.

I also note that i have not taught you the gift of always being right.

very lax of me to abandon you half taught. or perhaps the abandonment is yours ...
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 01:08   #20
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dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: More Kyoto Madness

If the English don't shag sheep then how do you explain the existence of the Scotts?
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 01:14   #21
Yahwe
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Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If the English don't shag sheep then how do you explain the existence of the Scotts?
we call it scotland.

EDIT: now you justify arkinsaw
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 04:21   #22
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dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: More Kyoto Madness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
now you justify arkinsaw
As far as I can tell there is very little justification for Arkansas. In Arkansas, family trees do not have branches.
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 04:36   #23
Yahwe
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Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: More Kyoto Madness

just squirrel brains for breakfast?
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 05:30   #24
dda
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dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: More Kyoto Madness

Just squirrel brains? JUST SQUIRREL BRAINS??? Gourmet squirrel brains, sir! And let us not forget the occasional savory possum testicle.
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