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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:27   #51
Dante Hicks
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Leadership means different thing in different contexts. I remember I had to attend some shitty management training course once and they asked for two examples of "leaders" we had personally dealt with and what qualities they possessed.

Sadly, the only two examples I could think of were Synthetic Sid of Fury fame and one of my former managers at work. In neither case did I admire the persons "beliefs" in any sense, but because they demonstrated a particular type of organisational skill and professionalism which shaped the organisation / team they led. They were also reasonably fair (or at least, even-handed / consistent) and clearly had quite a degree of knowledge in their respective area which inspired others.

Similarly, looking historically there are plenty of leaders who seem to have admirable traits even where I would have found much of their politics unspeakable. Churchill being an obvious example for myself. I don't think you can say a leader does / doesn't follow public opinion - that really depends. It's quite possible to imagine someone starting off neutral on an issue but then skillfully acting to a given end once the end has been decided.

This is not to say "ability to convince" isn't an important trait for a leader - but it's not the be all and end all of them either.

In the context of a nations leader today I would say that anyone who protects the liberties of his citizenry and looks out for the interests of the downtrodden is on the right path. But it's contextual. The Prime Minister of Sweden doesn't have to do much to ensure that there is no mass famine in his country. The President of Congo has a harder task to achieve the same.

But more than this, you have to stay in power to achieve this. There are many heroic dissidents in exile around the world but one has to question their ability if they are only dissidents. Castro may be a worse human being than Aung San Suu Kyi but he is in power and she is under house arrest. In this context Chavez and Castro must be understood.

Manson glibly says that it must be possible to achieve various things without being an "authotarian shit-head". Well, given the history of Latin America this is hardly a given is it?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:30   #52
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I don't believe I said random, but whatever.

Nothing wrong with that, if (and this would have required reading my whole post so you probably missed it) you persuade the voters that it's the right thing to do.

Hitler wasn't too big on democracy and his "persuasion" consisted of brownshirts beating up the opposition.

Well yes, in the sense that most people don't persuade (m)any other people that their position is correct. Haven't we already established that good leaders are a rare commodity?
oh ok, now i understand.

So its ok to act in the interests of the minority as long as you fool the majority into thinking that its for them?

you specifically seem to be saying that as long as you are able to persuade people that what you are doing is right, then it must be the right thing. That is clearly untrue.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:32   #53
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

oh and gate, im not being rude to the new guy by not replying, i just tend to agree with a lot of what you said so im not going to bother
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:33   #54
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Exclamation Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Manson glibly says that it must be possible to achieve various things without being an "authotarian shit-head". Well, given the history of Latin America this is hardly a given is it?
I think given the present political circumstances in South America, and given Venezuela's generally fair historical record - relative to the rest of South America - it's not a lot to ask, tbh.

It's not as if we're talking about China in the 1920's or something here.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:36   #55
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
1) For using the oil revenues to improve ordinarty citizens health care and education.
2) For refusing to give in to the usual pressure from the rich
3) For redistributing land to landless farmers
4) For putting his own country before the needs of USA

And Im all with T&F for the east-timor guy (who won the nobel peace price a few years ago).
Im also hoping for George Weah as president of Liberia.
It could easily be said about George Bush:
1) Attempting to use oil revenues (from leasing out ANWAR) to support health care and education (he's passed both an education and a health care initiative)
3) For redistributing land to landless farmers (by 'land' i mean 'massive quantities of money' and by 'landless farmers' i obviously mean 'really rich people')
4) For putting his own needs before the needs of the USA

so is Bush up on the same level as Chavez in your book?

To me, for any leadership ever, you can pick out some bright points. To avoid Godwin, let's look at Stalin. Not only did he really help push his country into the 20th century, he won the big war, fighting off fascist advances, and set the USSR up to move into its golden age, all while taking over a number of new territories. Kudos.

To me, you really need to set out some basic values by which the sum of a leadership can be viewed. I would ask
Are your people more or less 'free' then when you started (free with respect to their government)?
Are your people better off then when you started?
I would also say that reaching these objectives is not a path independent subject, i.e., the means matters.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:45   #56
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I think given the present political circumstances in South America, and given Venezuela's generally fair historical record - relative to the rest of South America - it's not a lot to ask, tbh.
Well, Venezuala has how many attempted coups in the last ten years? And Chavez was involved in at least one of them!

And the only country in the region taking a different approach (economically) is under a fairly harsh trade embargo, so it's not like the United States influence still isn't felt in the region.

This is not to grant his a carte blanche to many of his policies, but I think stating things so simply is not honest or fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
Are your people better off then when you started?
It really depends on the context. There many factors beyond the control of a leader. If you preside over a massive economic downturn / war / etc it's slightly unfair to apply an objective better/worse test.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:53   #57
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
No, that's being a good follower--a populist.

Good leaders lead. That means taking a position (possibly unpopular) and--in a democracy--persuading the voters that it's the right thing to do. It means not changing your positions (or worse, pretending to change them) when there's an election in order to get/keep power.
to me there is a difference between being a good leader and being good at leading. Someone who is good at leading can convince people to change their stances on issues, and, as you say, doesn't simply follow what's popular.

However, someone who convinces his followers to jump off the proverbial bridge may be 'a good leader' in the technical sense, but not in the sense I meant in this thread.

It's definitely a prerequisite to being 'a good leader' in my sense to be 'a good leader' in the debate-team-champion sense you propose, but it certianly doens't end there.
1. Can convince people to follow him
2. Can keep himself in power (as discussed above)
3. Leads in a non-sucky direction (needs to be less vague)

note that unlike 3, 1 and 2 are prerequisites, and happen to be skills held by every mafia godfather and tin-pot dictator and i'm starting to see a problem forming...
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 19:02   #58
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

I can't believe we're still debating a nonsense question.

given the absurdity of the proposition, that the chap who raised it has confesed that he himself does understand what he meant and the seemingly limitless number of logical flaws which appear to breed selves of themselves to their own recomforture...

I will settle this nonsense once and for all.

THE THING THAT MAKES A GOOD WORLD LEADER IS A FINE COLLECTION OF FISH KNIVES.

there. you are free now my children, free to debate questions which will be mildly less pointless
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 19:39   #59
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I can't believe we're still debating a nonsense question.

given the absurdity of the proposition, that the chap who raised it has confesed that he himself does understand what he meant and the seemingly limitless number of logical flaws which appear to breed selves of themselves to their own recomforture...

I will settle this nonsense once and for all.

THE THING THAT MAKES A GOOD WORLD LEADER IS A FINE COLLECTION OF FISH KNIVES.

there. you are free now my children, free to debate questions which will be mildly less pointless
it's unclear to me how saying 'i don't know' can be logically flawed, but that's irrelevant.

relevant is that with the media being 0 for 54 in terms of thorough fish-knife-collection-quality reporting across the candidates, it seems likely that fish-knife-collection quality will again be underreported in 2008, leaving me again having no usable reference by which to choose my candidate.

not helpful.

not at all.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 19:42   #60
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

anyway, shouldn't you be doing something with that other thread of yours?

like, having a point?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 20:28   #61
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

The problem we has is that we Earthlings think we are smart, when in reality we don't know crap. Oh, we can build a ship that will fly to mars, but we don't know what causes inflation. Or if we do know, why do we allow it to happen so much?

As an example, I read today that 90 percent of new medicines are produced under capitalism*, whereas probably 95 percent of the people in the word (everyone except the really rich) would say that a socialist medical system is superior to a capitalist medical system. Yet socialist medical systems only produce about 10 percent of new medicines.

The journalist could be a liar, I did not check his "fact."
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 20:31   #62
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

since when was medicine relevant?

I don't think any of the critics of capitalism say that its ENTIRELY useless and evil. Just largely.

oh, and since the free market etc really only exists because we say it does, there is no good reason why all the advances we have couldn't have been discovered other ways. What an alternative system could be, i don't pretend to know.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 20:31   #63
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
As an example, I read today that 90 percent of new medicines are produced under capitalism*, whereas probably 95 percent of the people in the word (everyone except the really rich) would say that a socialist medical system is superior to a capitalist medical system. Yet socialist medical systems only produce about 10 percent of new medicines.
possibly measuring the ratio of research funding:breakthroughs would be more meaningful
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 20:42   #64
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
The problem we has is that we Earthlings think we are smart, when in reality we don't know crap. Oh, we can build a ship that will fly to mars, but we don't know what causes inflation. Or if we do know, why do we allow it to happen so much?

As an example, I read today that 90 percent of new medicines are produced under capitalism*, whereas probably 95 percent of the people in the word (everyone except the really rich) would say that a socialist medical system is superior to a capitalist medical system. Yet socialist medical systems only produce about 10 percent of new medicines.

The journalist could be a liar, I did not check his "fact."
so as someone who is about to vote for whether a socialist medical system is better than a capitalist,

should i vote for
A) the country that produced the drug i need but wouldn't give it to me
or
B) the country that didn't produce shit but is giving me the drug i need

?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 20:54   #65
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Exclamation Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
I don't buy into arguments that the political elite need to talk the people into anything, it assumes a relative chasm of sophistication between the politicians and the people which i just don't think exists.
I view it as more of a case of specialization than sophistication. Who has the time to be an expert on everything (Internet forum posters excepted, of course)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
oh ok, now i understand.

So its ok to act in the interests of the minority as long as you fool the majority into thinking that its for them?
I distinctly recall saying 'persuade,' not 'fool.'

In any case, isn't getting the majority to act in the interests of the minority the foundation of the modern welfare state? Aren't the poor, the elderly, the homeless, the unemployed, the uneducated, the immigrant, etc. all minorities?

I don't suppose you're prepared to apply your 'majority being fooled into acting in the interests of the minority' paradigm to them?
Quote:
you specifically seem to be saying that as long as you are able to persuade people that what you are doing is right, then it must be the right thing.
Well, you'd be leader certainly. Isn't that what we're discussing here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
However, someone who convinces his followers to jump off the proverbial bridge may be 'a good leader' in the technical sense, but not in the sense I meant in this thread.
Ah, I see. I apologize for not reading your mind.
Quote:
It's definitely a prerequisite to being 'a good leader' in my sense to be 'a good leader' in the debate-team-champion sense you propose, but it certianly doens't end there.
1. Can convince people to follow him
2. Can keep himself in power (as discussed above)
3. Leads in a non-sucky direction (needs to be less vague)

note that unlike 3, 1 and 2 are prerequisites, and happen to be skills held by every mafia godfather and tin-pot dictator
Well no. The difference is that mafia godfathers and dictators don't have to convince very many people to follow them. They only have to get a small cadre and then they can kill/intimidate their opponents (including cadre members who step out of line).
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 21:07   #66
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I distinctly recall saying 'persuade,' not 'fool.'
It's effectively the same thing, if youre fooled into voting for someone you're not going to look at it as being as such. Much more likely you will consider yourself persuaded, so its all semantics really. Therefore a meaningless distinction.

[quote=Tactitus]In any case, isn't getting the majority to act in the interests of the minority the foundation of the modern welfare state? Aren't the poor, the elderly, the homeless, the unemployed, the uneducated, the immigrant, etc. all minorities?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I don't suppose you're prepared to apply your 'majority being fooled into acting in the interests of the minority' paradigm to them?
That is a completely different situation. Firstly people like to see the welfare state as a safety net because one day "it could be them" being any of those things, and in the case of the elderly it WILL be at some point, so its more self interested than you think.

Secondly people don't like to see other people starving to death on the streets etc, and it was never a huge problem before mass conurbization, the rise of capitalism, the industrial revolution
and all that jazz. Hence the welfare state in some form has risen up as a response to that. I was talking to my brother the other day and saying i would rather live in the feudal age, it sounds positively idyllic; apparently you only had to work 15 hours a week for subsistence + some to the lord, marvellous. However the mortality rates etc were a bit shit but that could be sorted these days... what was my point?

Oh yeah, what i was going to say is that the minority groups i was talking about are actually far smaller in number than all the ones you have mentioned, corporate executives and shareholders and stuff like that, if when someone says "minority groups" in an argument you feel that you can then name other, completely unrelated minority groups, then its a sad state of affairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Well, you'd be leader certainly. Isn't that what we're discussing here?
We were discussing what kind of person would make the BEST leader, not the most successful for them personally, but for the people of their country.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 21:13   #67
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
As an example, I read today that 90 percent of new medicines are produced under capitalism*, ."
Heh. Ignoring whether it was true, and even ignoring the definition issues, surely you can see what's wrong with that argument?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 21:27   #68
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Well no. The difference is that mafia godfathers and dictators don't have to convince very many people to follow them. They only have to get a small cadre and then they can kill/intimidate their opponents (including cadre members who step out of line).
they convince a small group to follow them, and use those people to convince the rest. through threats yes.

but they can be very convincing. now, offhand you might not count coersion as 'leadership.' but i would.

If I'm the boss of my group, you can be damn sure that everyone will know that anyone who doesn't do their work is getting tossed out on their ass. I might not preface every coffee request with "do this or you're fired", but it is a fact, and it is a threat, and if it is not an absolutely necessary part of leadership, it is certainly at least part of a viable approach.

Do threats stop being acceptable once you are a leader on the world stage? I would say no. Certainly American leaders have used threats and such to dissuade the production of nukes from some regions, and rightly so. And I'm certainly not the first to refer to an aircraft carrier group as being mobile US diplomacy.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 21:51   #69
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Exclamation Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

I heard that 100% of babies were born within Earth's atmosphere.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:17   #70
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
so as someone who is about to vote for whether a socialist medical system is better than a capitalist,

should i vote for
A) the country that produced the drug i need but wouldn't give it to me
or
B) the country that didn't produce shit but is giving me the drug i need

?
That's a good questions. Tthe problem is the future, not now.. You may get the medicine you need today, but you won't get the medicine you need in the future, because it won't be developed if all wealthy governments turn to socialized medicine.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:20   #71
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Heh. Ignoring whether it was true, and even ignoring the definition issues, surely you can see what's wrong with that argument?
Perhaps you should just spell it out rather than asking me to guess what you are talking about.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:25   #72
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Perhaps you should just spell it out rather than asking me to guess what you are talking about.
Most countries are capitalist?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:32   #73
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Exclamation Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Most countries are capitalist?
Pretty much all, in fact!
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:32   #74
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
since when was medicine relevant?

I don't think any of the critics of capitalism say that its ENTIRELY useless and evil. Just largely.

oh, and since the free market etc really only exists because we say it does, there is no good reason why all the advances we have couldn't have been discovered other ways. What an alternative system could be, i don't pretend to know.
Of course, you don't pretend to know. That is my point. We are ignorant. I point out a problem. You claim it's not a problem. You don't know how to fix the problem. It is much the same with world leaders. Not only do they not know how to solve problems, they can't even recognized if something is or is not a problem.

Here's an example of a problem.
The muslim world seemed to be threatening the United States back about four years ago. Lots of people had lots of ideas on how to fix the problem. As best I can tell all of the ideas were bad ones. I think the worst idea would be to give muslims bucketloads of U.S. money and apologize for all the bad things the Europeans had done to them since they were first kicked out of Spain.

Instead, Bush decided to bomb the shit out of a couple of countries. As best I can tell, that also was not a particularly good idea.

I have been reading this forum for many years now, and I have seen what seem to be some pretty good ideas. I have also seen so much ignorance posted on these forums it makes me wonder why anyone still comes here to read.

And the worst part of it is you all think your a bunch of geniuses with all the answers to the world's problems, when in reality you are even more ignorant than the world leaders you criticize.

The rant was not directed at you Deepflow, but at all the people on this forum who think they know all the answers.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:33   #75
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

To be any kind of leader you have to inspire people to follow you. Abraham Lincoln said that the prime requisite for being a statesman is to be elected.

If you have a following then if you lead that following in a direction which winds up to be of a benifit to them you are a pretty good leader. If you can also find ways to benefit your followers and others as well then you are an even better leader. However, if you lose the backing of your followers by trying too hard to benefit others, you cease to be any kind of leader. Thus the whole thing gets very complicated.

The other primary complication is that what may seem to be the best for a group at a particular time may in fact be bad for it in the long run. Only time will tell wheter the correct decisions were made or not.

Is Bush on the right track? Is he decreasing or increasing terrorism? There are bright people on both sides of the issue. 50 years from now, barring a complete calamity or a total miricale, historians will probably still be debating the issue.

Was Regan the man who defeated the USSR and ended the cold war or just a narrow minded bastard who got lucky but caused a lot of other trouble and misery? Who knows?

Did Churchill save the Western Democracies in WWII? Or did he cause more problems than he was worth but was in the right place at the right time?

Hitler was an evil man that brought very little good to very few people but I once had a neighbor who was a German national in the Ukarine who still refered to Hitler as a liberator.

In a Democracy we all have to make the best decision we can based on the available knowledge.

Someone once said "every people gets the govenment that it deserves." So I guess that if all of our leaders are f***ed up, who's fault is that?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:35   #76
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Pretty much all, in fact!
****ing cubans not doing more than their share.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:36   #77
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Most countries are capitalist?
Canada for example is capitalist but has a sozialized medicine system. Drug researchers cannot make a profit, therefore the only drug research is that funded by the bureaucracy. Bureaucracies do not seem to be as effective at drug research as capitalist systems.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:36   #78
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Someone once said "every people gets the govenment that it deserves." So I guess that if all of our leaders are f***ed up, who's fault is that?
Yours?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 22:38   #79
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Most countries are capitalist?
i assumed for some semblance of an argument that what was meant was that countries with socialized medicine, e.g., uk, france, germany, sweden, were compared to countries without, e.g., the US.

if we are comparing Cuba vs. the world that's a pretty sad statistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
That's a good questions. Tthe problem is the future, not now.. You may get the medicine you need today, but you won't get the medicine you need in the future, because it won't be developed if all wealthy governments turn to socialized medicine.
getting medicated now but not in future vs.
not getting medicated now and not getting medicated in the future?

i can see the pharmaceuticals argument; if people want someone to develop new drugs, they have to pay for the research. but i can see people's response too: "no, actually we don't. good try though."

the fact is, everyone is a selfish ass. the Pharms want to make as much money as possible (obviously), and the people want to pay as little as possible (obviously), and they both can't be bothered with any layer of ethics betwixt.

So you get the massive shitpot that is north american medicine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Perhaps you should just spell it out rather than asking me to guess what you are talking about.
"90% of medicines produced under capitalism"? lot of questions and quibbles. what % of the world pharmaceutical economy is capitalism? by produced, does that mean patented or manufactured? do these pills work?

and even if all else turns out to be true in favor of capitalism, how many of these pills are erectile dysfunction related?

i don't see how numerical comparisons like that can be made for one country curing, say, cancer, and another curing pinky toe zits.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 23:03   #80
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Yours?
Why aren't you in America seducing our women?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 23:07   #81
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by dda
Why aren't you in America seducing our women?
Little bit early for that.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 23:11   #82
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i assumed for some semblance of an argument that what was meant was that countries with socialized medicine, e.g., uk, france, germany, sweden, were compared to countries without, e.g., the US.

if we are comparing Cuba vs. the world that's a pretty sad statistic.
getting medicated now but not in future vs.
not getting medicated now and not getting medicated in the future?

i can see the pharmaceuticals argument; if people want someone to develop new drugs, they have to pay for the research. but i can see people's response too: "no, actually we don't. good try though."

the fact is, everyone is a selfish ass. the Pharms want to make as much money as possible (obviously), and the people want to pay as little as possible (obviously), and they both can't be bothered with any layer of ethics betwixt.

So you get the massive shitpot that is north american medicine.
"90% of medicines produced under capitalism"? lot of questions and quibbles. what % of the world pharmaceutical economy is capitalism? by produced, does that mean patented or manufactured? do these pills work?

and even if all else turns out to be true in favor of capitalism, how many of these pills are erectile dysfunction related?

i don't see how numerical comparisons like that can be made for one country curing, say, cancer, and another curing pinky toe zits.
I was thinking of Canada and Sweden. I'm not really sure if Cuba does any medical research. Probably not.

The 90 percent of medicines actually means 90 percent of medical research that produces effective medications/drugs to treat medical issues. Perhaps I was not clear. I don't mean just making capsule with chemicals inside that someone invented or discovered 50 years ago.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 23:12   #83
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Little bit early for that.

i translate that as 'the pub's haven't opened yet, why haven't the pub's opened? I need BEER!'
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 23:16   #84
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
The 90 percent of medicines actually means 90 percent of medical research that produces effective medications/drugs to treat medical issues. Perhaps I was not clear. I don't mean just making capsule with chemicals inside that someone invented or discovered 50 years ago.
still not clear at all.

'90%' of research by what measure?

man hours?
$ spent?
sales of eventual patented product?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 23:41   #85
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by acropolis
still not clear at all.

'90%' of research by what measure?

man hours?
$ spent?
sales of eventual patented product?
my original quote: 90 percent of new medicines are produced under capitalism.

So, what I meant was new medicines.... not man hours, dollars spent or sales of drugs.

New: something that did not exist before, but now does exist.

Medicines: chemicals used to heal or alleviate medical conditions.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 23:51   #86
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

im just wondering what you mean by "under capitalism" now, as pure capitalism doesn't actually exist as far as i know.

Or do you just mean that free market forces create the competition to bring out new medicines?

what about all the research that's done at universities etc though, surely they arent mostly influenced by capitalism. WIthout a lot of that it wouldn't be possible.

defining words doesnt actually make the statement clear.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 00:02   #87
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
my original quote: 90 percent of new medicines are produced under capitalism.

So, what I meant was new medicines.... not man hours, dollars spent or sales of drugs.

New: something that did not exist before, but now does exist.

Medicines: chemicals used to heal or alleviate medical conditions.
fair enough. under this scheme,
45 minutes in my lab to invent a toe zit cure = 500 billion dollar 10 year research project to cure cancer.

you could perhaps argue that on average the capitalist researched products are on the same scope as the socialist, but i'd contend that the capitalists have a much larger focus on erectile issues etc; but all of that misses the bottom line.

the current system simply doesn't work; it won't fix itself, and the powers that be seem determined to exacerbate the situation. I propose better powers that be.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 00:05   #88
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
I was thinking of Canada and Sweden. I'm not really sure if Cuba does any medical research. Probably not.

The 90 percent of medicines actually means 90 percent of medical research that produces effective medications/drugs to treat medical issues. Perhaps I was not clear. I don't mean just making capsule with chemicals inside that someone invented or discovered 50 years ago.
OK, you're right I should have spelt this out, even though Manson, Phang and JBG have both alluded to my point. Imagine I said :
"90% of crimes in America were comitted within 25 miles of a police station, despite most people thinking that police help reduce crime!"

Would this be meaningful? Would it be a damning indictment of the police? Or would it totally depend on a whole range of factors? What if it was then shown that 98% of the US population lived within 25 miles of a police station. What would that mean?

Then there's the other issues which have already been raised. Sweden and Britain might have "socialist" medical systems in your terms, but at least in the UK, the NHS does not (on the whole) develop new drugs. That is left to private drug companies (e.g. Glaxo-Smithkline/whatever) - the NHS usually buy them. So it's a silly comparison. It's like saying 90% of fires in the UK are put out by state fire services, not by private industry. This is irrelevent because it is not the job (usually) of private companies to put out fires.

And Cuba does develop medical treatments. They actually punch above their weight in bio-medical research and at least one UK company is working with the Cuban's on some sort of treatment (possibly for Meningitis, I forget now).
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 00:26   #89
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Exclamation Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
It's effectively the same thing, if youre fooled into voting for someone you're not going to look at it as being as such. Much more likely you will consider yourself persuaded, so its all semantics really. Therefore a meaningless distinction.
Well, you introduced the distinction so if it's a meaningless one, thanks for nothing.
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That is a completely different situation. Firstly people like to see the welfare state as a safety net because one day "it could be them" being any of those things, and in the case of the elderly it WILL be at some point, so its more self interested than you think.
Well I fully intend to be rich someday so increasing benefits to the rich could well be in my self interest, no? It's far more likely that I'll be rich than I'll be an immigrant, for example.
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Oh yeah, what i was going to say is that the minority groups i was talking about are actually far smaller in number than all the ones you have mentioned,
But that's just a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one. Or are you really suggesting the welfare state should only help large minority groups and tell the small ones to shove off?
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corporate executives and shareholders and stuff like that, if when someone says "minority groups" in an argument you feel that you can then name other, completely unrelated minority groups, then its a sad state of affairs
Well yes, no one likes their arguments turned against them.
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Originally Posted by acropolis
If I'm the boss of my group, you can be damn sure that everyone will know that anyone who doesn't do their work is getting tossed out on their ass. I might not preface every coffee request with "do this or you're fired", but it is a fact, and it is a threat, and if it is not an absolutely necessary part of leadership, it is certainly at least part of a viable approach.
It's an approach but I'm not sure how viable it is, what with slavery being outlawed here in the US and all. You may quickly find that all your competent people have left and you're stuck with all the worthless ass kissers.
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Do threats stop being acceptable once you are a leader on the world stage? I would say no. Certainly American leaders have used threats and such to dissuade the production of nukes from some regions, and rightly so. And I'm certainly not the first to refer to an aircraft carrier group as being mobile US diplomacy.
Sure, but whether American leaders threaten other countries or not makes little difference to them in terms of acquiring or maintaining political power. They are only an issue to the extent that American voters agree or disagree with the threats being made.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 01:10   #90
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

im far too tired to reply to that now, but i have vague idea in my head that what you wrote was largely tosh, though not enough faculties to currently refute it.

see you in the morning.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 01:27   #91
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Is Bush on the right track? Is he decreasing or increasing terrorism? There are bright people on both sides of the issue. 50 years from now, barring a complete calamity or a total miricale, historians will probably still be debating the issue.
or is he a man presiding over a decline in the american economy?

a man who can not stop that decline.

and so, a man who would prefer to distract his citizens with talk of fear?
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 03:24   #92
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
or is he a man presiding over a decline in the american economy?

a man who can not stop that decline.

and so, a man who would prefer to distract his citizens with talk of fear?
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 03:29   #93
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to hit the post reply button. My snappy retort was that I don't know and I don't think anyone knows the answer to those questions. 50 years from now we may know the answer to some extent but there will probably still be discussions going on about it in academia if not on a GD thread.

As far as the decline of the American economy goes, I don't think it's declining. Thus, I don't think Bush needs to stop the decline. And lastly, I don't think that it takes much to distract us from virtually anything. Though we have, for the most part been bright enough to not get too involved in formula 1 racing.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 03:39   #94
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Sorry about that. I didn't mean to hit the post reply button. My snappy retort was that I don't know and I don't think anyone knows the answer to those questions. 50 years from now we may know the answer to some extent but there will probably still be discussions going on about it in academia if not on a GD thread.

As far as the decline of the American economy goes, I don't think it's declining. Thus, I don't think Bush needs to stop the decline. And lastly, I don't think that it takes much to distract us from virtually anything. Though we have, for the most part been bright enough to not get too involved in formula 1 racing.
yet you are told you live in fear of attack.

i mean no disrespect. we are told the same.

(i can't help but think that proliferation of that idea is not to our benefit. call me cynical if you must)
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 03:57   #95
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Sorry about that. I didn't mean to hit the post reply button.
You can click the Edit Post button on the bottom right of your post to edit your thread. You don't have to start a new one, although don't attempt anything because it will take you too many tries of garbled posts to figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
As far as the decline of the American economy goes, I don't think it's declining. Thus, I don't think Bush needs to stop the decline.
The American economy may not look as if it's declining if you look at traditional indicators, but it is changing. The people at the top have done well for themselves and have increased their earnings, while the disappearing middle class and lower classes are earning less, and have less. It takes two members of a household to afford a lifestyle once provided for by one.

More people are homeowners now than ever before, that's true, but while some may say that's an increase in American assets, I see that as an increase in America's debt. Foreign countries are subsidizing our countries extravagent decades long spending spree by buying up our bonds and if you have a home mortgage, chances are Fanny Mae, and subsequenly Chinese interests have a steak in your house.

And there's that looming housing bubble that is no longer just being whispered about. If it is a bubble, and it does pop, having a $200,000 loan on a house worth $150,000 will sting a bit.

I think the economy has changed so much recently that nobody can say with confidence where we are at until we either hit a brick wall soon, or as you say 50 years from now, when we say hey these times weren't so bad. The ecnomy has been worse.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 05:37   #96
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Exclamation Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
The American economy may not look as if it's declining if you look at traditional indicators, but it is changing. The people at the top have done well for themselves and have increased their earnings, while the disappearing middle class and lower classes are earning less, and have less.
I think the demise of the middle class has been greatly exaggerated, although you can define middle class in so many different ways that it's probably meaningless anyway. I think you can tell when the economy is doing well because the critics start talking about inequality--how incomes in the top quintile are rising so rapidly yet the bottom quintile is virtually stagnant. This seems a bit alarming until you realize that the bottom quintile is composed largely of retirees, students, and the permanently unemployed--basically, people who don't work and whose incomes won't go up much no matter what the economy does.
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It takes two members of a household to afford a lifestyle once provided for by one.
I don't know what that means unless you're referring to the decline in average household income; although that's more an artifact of the rise in single-parent families rather than declining personal incomes.
Quote:
More people are homeowners now than ever before, that's true, but while some may say that's an increase in American assets, I see that as an increase in America's debt. Foreign countries are subsidizing our countries extravagent decades long spending spree by buying up our bonds and if you have a home mortgage, chances are Fanny Mae, and subsequenly Chinese interests have a steak in your house.
I could go for a good steak.
Quote:
And there's that looming housing bubble that is no longer just being whispered about. If it is a bubble, and it does pop, having a $200,000 loan on a house worth $150,000 will sting a bit.
It'd sting a lot more for those foreigners holding the paper on all those now-overvalued properties; not that I think the housing market is in any great danger of collapse.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 06:01   #97
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
I could go for a good steak.
lol, I meant stake. :/

I see what you're saying, but while I'm doing better than I ever thought I would, I think poverty is spreading, diseases are prevailing, meteors are on their way, and the dinosaurs are about to make a comeback, and bad things are happening and the world is going to hell in a hand basket because one time the world was good and just and paradise and since then it's just been going down hill, down hill to down town. I mean 'down' town, if you know what I'm saying because I certainly don't.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 06:08   #98
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
This seems a bit alarming until you realize that the bottom quintile is composed largely of retirees, students, and the permanently unemployed--basically, people who don't work and whose incomes won't go up much no matter what the economy does.
This is the most I've ever seen anyone whitewash what poverty is in America in a single sentence. You make it sound almost pleasant to be left behind.
Do you not believe that poverty exists in America? What about the Mississippi Delta? South Chicago? The Four Corners region Navajo Indian Reservation? (I've actually seen that incredible destitute with my own eyes.) The Hamptons?
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 09:32   #99
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
So what so fantastic about Howard? His support for U.S imperialism in Iraq, the way he plays on racism to gain votes or his efforts to redistribute as much wealth as posible into the hands of the top 5% of the population?
His support of Bush is only to broker a free-trade agreement with America... this is a good thing (for us anyway).

I've never seen him playing on racism for votes, can you give any examples?

Your last statement also does not make sense. He's made leaps and bounds to improve not only Autsralia's economy as a whole, but also make things better for the working-class. Any problems we are having now are a result of the labour goverments previous time in power, when they royally ****ed Australia and its citizens up the arse in every way imaginable.
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 10:43   #100
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Re: World Leaders That Don't Suck

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Originally Posted by djbass
His support of Bush is only to broker a free-trade agreement with America... this is a good thing (for us anyway).
Would that mean australia joining NAFTA? first ive heard about this. Surely being more involved in asia would be the thing for australia?
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