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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 14:09   #1
Nightwolf
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BP's

The size of BP's should to be changed back from 5 to 3. Also remove late sign-ups.

The way I see it fortress galaxies are way too strong and only benefit Apprime and Ascendancy because the other alliances can't pull it off.

Late sign-ups will still have the same benefits, they just can't chose their galaxy anymore.

Since the vast majority of active forum posters left is either Ascendancy or Apprime I'm most likely going to get shitcanned on this one, but what the hell, I will give it a try!

Discuss.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 14:50   #2
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Re: BP's

It is not exactly our fault that you cannot do something which 'we' have been doing (and DLR too in a few rounds actually) for the last what? 10 rounds?

I mean, exiling is not exactly magic and costs a lot of resources.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 14:50   #3
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Re: BP's

There are advantages and disadvantages to the fortress galaxy strategy. Euphroia is extremely hard to hit this round because they're in 3 man BPs not in one big fortress setup.

As for your argument that other alliances can't pull off the fortress galaxy system, thats not true, they just elect not to, its hardly rocket science on how to do it.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 15:40   #4
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Re: BP's

Pointless idea, for the reasons mentioned above. And, FYI, I'm in neither Asc or Apprime so I have no relevent bias.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 15:58   #5
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Re: BP's

Tbh I haven't played the last 10 rounds. Last round I've played before this one, the BP's actually consisted of 3 members. I just think it was better back then.

And lets not turn this into a 'you can't pull it off' discussion, I was trying to avoid that with my first post. As that's not the point, I just think it's too easy to end up in a galaxy with 9 or 10 of the same alliance.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 16:03   #6
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Re: BP's

I feel a "bring back private galaxies" thread revival coming on!
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 16:14   #7
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Re: BP's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
The way I see it fortress galaxies are way too strong and only benefit Apprime and Ascendancy because the other alliances can't pull it off.
You're missing the central point. Fortress galaxies are strong because of the work people put into them. Changing the game to punish those who work harder is just a bizzare way of approaching things.

Quote:
Since the vast majority of active forum posters left is either Ascendancy or Apprime I'm most likely going to get shitcanned on this one, but what the hell, I will give it a try!
I hate points like this. It's like ending your post with "flame away". Your argument is objectively poor. Just because some people might have vested interests in retaining the status quo doesn't mean your proposed changes aren't total garbage.

That said I don't think it matters, I could easily still make fortress galaxies with 3 man bps. I'd just get rid of buddypacks altogether if you're going to go down this route. Trying to actually think of changes that'll improve gameplay as opposed to changes that mean your lazy ass won't have to put in as much effort as the best players to keep up would be appreciated in future
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 16:35   #8
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Re: BP's

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Since the vast majority of active forum posters left is either Ascendancy or Apprime I'm most likely going to get shitcanned on this one, but what the hell, I will give it a try!
This was more a joke than anything else.

Quote:
You're missing the central point. Fortress galaxies are strong because of the work people put into them. Changing the game to punish those who work harder is just a bizzare way of approaching things.
The current system just helps the really active players which is also bizzare because the majority of PA are the casual players.

Quote:
That said I don't think it matters, I could easily still make fortress galaxies with 3 man bps.
Doubt it. Atleast it didn't happen back then.

Quote:
I'd just get rid of buddypacks altogether if you're going to go down this route.
That's a possibility aswell. I just would like to see some change in the current system.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 16:39   #9
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
This was more a joke than anything else.
If yourself and Jerry Seinfeld were to make a joke at the same time in the same location the sheer comedic impact of such a moment would likely rip the universe in two.

Quote:
The current system just helps the really active players which is also bizzare because the majority of PA are the casual players.
The point of a game is to encourage activity. Not discourage it.


Quote:
Doubt it. Atleast it didn't happen back then.
And when we started off making fortress gals in r20 odd or so people used to tell me that it was a terrible idea then. But it's not.

Quote:
I just would like to see some change in the current system.
Sure. And you just happned to think this needed changing in order to improve the gameplay experience.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 16:43   #10
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
The size of BP's should to be changed back from 5 to 3. Also remove late sign-ups. Discuss.
I would strongly disagree with changing the BP amount from 5.
personally I would prefer to keep the 5 man BP... I would have to say well played for the folk who put in the effort to make their galaxies Solid.

saying that I would agree with the removal the Galaxy code for late sign ups.
As that also encourages players to be lazy.

"dont worry if I crash my fleet early round... worse case senario is I can restart with a galaxy code join a top gal."

I have heard the above phase (or similar) been said this round.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 16:56   #11
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Re: BP's

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The point of a game is to encourage activity. Not discourage it.
The point of a game is to get as many players as possible. :/
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 17:02   #12
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Re: BP's

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The point of a game is to get as many players as possible. :/
No, that's the point of a business. Making money. The point of a game is to get your playerbase involved as much as possible. To illustrate the point which would make a better game 5000 people playing in a totally half-assed fashion or 2000 people playing actively at a high level? Hell make it 50000 people playing in a totally half-assed fashion. The game is interesting due to user-created depth. If people don't put in effort that depth doesn't get created.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 17:23   #13
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
No, that's the point of a business. Making money. The point of a game is to get your playerbase involved as much as possible. To illustrate the point which would make a better game 5000 people playing in a totally half-assed fashion or 2000 people playing actively at a high level? Hell make it 50000 people playing in a totally half-assed fashion. The game is interesting due to user-created depth. If people don't put in effort that depth doesn't get created.
I would go for the 50,000 people. With the amount of players we have at the moment, every new round is a repeat of last round. Same alliances, same fight, even the same winners. Soon enough, when players keep leaving we will have to attack the same target every night. What's the fun in that?

Repeat = boredom.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 17:33   #14
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Re: BP's

That wouldn't even be a game. You might as well just be playing solitaire. The game is boring at the minute because the same people keep winning because nobody else wants to actually step it up and bring it to them. I even made it easier for you all by stepping down this round and you still couldn't manage it!

It'd be even worse if it was a collection of random idiots logging in three times a day for pick target, attack, jgp, land/recall. It's the activity, the gameplay that the more active players create that makes the game worthwhile.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 17:37   #15
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Re: BP's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
The way I see it fortress galaxies are way too strong and only benefit Apprime and Ascendancy because the other alliances can't pull it off.
eh? want to explain that?

whats the magic tools that asc and app get to be able to make fortress gals when other allies cant?

i think youre confusing the word CANT with the word WONT. other allies wont make fortress galaxies, usually cause their members choose to try and make fence galaxies. to say they cant is totally moronic.

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leave jerry out of this
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 17:46   #16
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Re: BP's

We will agree to disagree then JBG.

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eh? want to explain that?

whats the magic tools that asc and app get to be able to make fortress gals when other allies cant?

i think youre confusing the word CANT with the word WONT. other allies wont make fortress galaxies, usually cause their members choose to try and make fence galaxies. to say they cant is totally moronic.
HR making a fortress galaxy wouldn't make much sense for eg. So that's what I meant with CAN'T.


Anyways I thought my idea would spice up next round, but everyone seems to disagree. So lets continue playing with 5 man BP's and 2 late sign-ups forever. HURRAY!
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 17:47   #17
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Re: BP's

I agree about removing the late signup thing. Atm. it's used mainly to get to a top galaxy. People delete their accounts because they want to join a top galaxy. It therefore mainly benifits the top galaxies, which is not what it was intended for. And which helps unbalance the game.
I'd also like a few more galaxies, so lowering buddypacks to 4 ppl would be nice imo.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 17:59   #18
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
Anyways I thought my idea would spice up next round, but everyone seems to disagree. So lets continue playing with 5 man BP's and 2 late sign-ups forever. HURRAY!
It's saying things like this that make you look like an idiot. Ignoring the fact that's not what anyone said and you just created a really stupid false dichotomy, it now looks like you just posted this suggestion in order to score points against people in Ascendancy or Apprime. After all I've already pointed out that reducing bps to 3 people wouldn't have a significant impact on fortressing. Here's a big list of fallacious arguments for you. Try to avoid using any of them in your next post.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 18:02   #19
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
HR making a fortress galaxy wouldn't make much sense for eg. So that's what I meant with CAN'T.
comparing howling rain to ascendancy is comparing apples to oranges.

there is nothing stopping allies like ND/vision/subh going for fortress gals but their members choose to be in mixed/fenced bp's

having played in numerous allies where members are scattered across the universe and in an asc fortress gal it seems clear to me that fortress gals do wonders for the all round mentality and morale of an alliance
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 18:18   #20
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
It's saying things like this that make you look like an idiot. Ignoring the fact that's not what anyone said and you just created a really stupid false dichotomy, it now looks like you just posted this suggestion in order to score points against people in Ascendancy or Apprime. After all I've already pointed out that reducing bps to 3 people wouldn't have a significant impact on fortressing. Here's a big list of fallacious arguments for you. Try to avoid using any of them in your next post.
And you pointed out that reducing BPs to 3 people wouldn't have a significant impact on fortressing just by saying it wouldn't? You should read this yourself.

Everyone did disagree with my suggestion till Gerbie2 posted. The 2nd part was me attempting sarcastic humour. So losen up mr. serious.

Quote:
there is nothing stopping allies like ND/vision/subh going for fortress gals but their members choose to be in mixed/fenced bp's
They won't because I'm pretty confident it wouldn't work for them either. I was just exaggerating by saying HR.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 18:27   #21
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
And you pointed out that reducing BPs to 3 people wouldn't have a significant impact on fortressing just by saying it wouldn't? You should read this yourself.
Quote:
They won't because I'm pretty confident it wouldn't work for them either. I was just exaggerating by saying HR.
Jesus christ. I mean jesus ****ing christ. First of all, that's not a fallacy. It's just a lack of evidence. I didn't offer any but if you want we can get all the people on here to say that they'd still try creating fortresses next round. I know they would because I'd still do it and I'm pretty sure that after fifteen odd rounds playing with the same extended group of people we think along similar lines. Largely fortresses happen due to three factors (one of which is secondary). First of all because people like playing with their friends more. Secondly because it clarifies your strategy by clearly defining your defence pool. And finally, leading on from its perceived success, because it looks like it works.

YOU THEN WENT ON TO DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOU CRITICISED ME FOR DOING SLIGHTLY LATER ON IN THE SAME POST.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 18:39   #22
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
They won't because I'm pretty confident it wouldn't work for them either. I was just exaggerating by saying HR.
so something in the game that works well for us should be changed because the other alliances cba to try and see if it works for them and instead stick with their tried and failed methods?

and i dont see why an alliance with the history of ND or qualities of euphoria couldnt try this strategy without positive results
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 18:53   #23
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Re: BP's

If fortresses were not made ppl would just moan about the top fence sitting gals instead.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 19:00   #24
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Re: BP's

This is going nowhere so I will try to rephrase.

Basically what I am saying; this has been done for multiple rounds, lets try something else.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 19:54   #25
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Re: BP's

doesnt matter what happens , losers always moan whinge and cry
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 22:31   #26
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Re: BP's

It's still not a bad thing to change some numbers around every now and then.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 00:46   #27
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Re: BP's

Change just for change sake is the sign of somebody who lacks the imagination for reasonable progression.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 01:01   #28
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Re: BP's

Besides, the ones adapted best to the actual rules are pretty much the same who adapted best to the rules before the last change, and will pretty likely be the ones to adapt best to any change you make.

Believe it, cutting buddy packs down to 3 won´t change the fortress making, since creating a fortress galaxy consists of nothing more than exiling any unfitting planet at a certain tick on alliance level, and have everyone who wants into one of those gals self-exile accordingly.
It´s hardly rocket science, and you´ll have to admit reducing bp size won´t change anything about the procedure.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 01:19   #29
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Re: BP's

I'd quite like to ban exiling unless your galaxy is in the bottom 20% of galaxies and cut back buddypacks to three men BPs, with 2 BPs to a galaxy. While there are playing with your mates benefits, fortressing just leads to far more dud galaxies than there should be.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 02:40   #30
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Re: BP's

At a minimum I would like to see late signups reduced to one, seems to lead to top gals becoming very strong at the end and the weaker gals becoming weaker - its meant as a way to bring friends into your gal who missed the start, not to enhance an already strong gal.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 17:21   #31
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Re: BP's

This hole late signup thing is a joke imo, with people hiding res/therefore value in the galfund etc while roiding themselves to 1.5k roids while hardly anyone can touch them.
Atleast remove the bots from 1:1 so they can't be abused.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 17:57   #32
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Re: BP's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buly View Post
This hole late signup thing is a joke imo, with people hiding res/therefore value in the galfund etc while roiding themselves to 1.5k roids while hardly anyone can touch them.
This is really an appalling part of the game, and the value based cap-rate doesn't help either early on when all you can do is roid those planets for 15%. Something really does need to be done on that front.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 21:15   #33
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Re: BP's

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
This is really an appalling part of the game, and the value based cap-rate doesn't help either early on when all you can do is roid those planets for 15%. Something really does need to be done on that front.
Personally, I disagree. I think late starters shouldn't be punished for starting late - the advantages they have now in being able to noob roid to catch up with their galmates is a good thing imo.

Else it's just a case of "Yeah, I started late, but I'm going to be shit for the rest of the round because I haven't been able to catch a break".

I just disagree that it's a bad aspect of the game. I am, however, open to suggestions that make the game better rather, so if anyone has a good suggestion for an alternative idea I'm all ears.
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Unread 4 Dec 2009, 23:34   #34
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Re: BP's

Quote:
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I am tired of building a top 100 planet and then being forced to roid a bunch of noobs for 5 weeks until the block wars start. I want to start hitting top alliances/galaxies after one week, and I want to make them cry.
Took this from another thread, but I felt the argument was quite fitting in this context. In my opinion (though I have very little actual evidence to back this up), a large part of the reason that the first third of the round is so boring is that it takes a long time for alliances to get ready for war. In order to get to that point, they need all the help they can get, and it seems to me more than a coincidence that a large portion of the fighting starts taking place around the same time as the late signups begin coming into their strength.

I think removing one or both late signup slots would go a long way to making the early round interesting again. One of the disadvantages this would have is that people who die at, say, tick 250, would have to wait a long time before they can be competitive again, so it'd have to be balanced out by either making combat less lethal, or (and this has my personal preference) a change in the way score is calculated (in that doing well should be more than not doing anything horrendously wrong, like it is now). That's a suggestion for another thread altogether though.
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Unread 5 Dec 2009, 01:51   #35
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Re: BP's

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I even made it easier for you all by stepping down this round and you still couldn't manage it!
Is that noise I'm hearing the universe being split in 2 or did I just shit in my pants...
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