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24 Oct 2007, 21:36
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#51
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
I assume "slightly" was the keyword. And indeed, if you read Appoco's r24 announcement, you'll see that XP has indeed been improved a bit.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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24 Oct 2007, 22:50
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 39
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Lets hope that this introduce some more losses to both parties.. I am a bit tired of all those zero-losses attacks..
Also, which might be a good idea, remove the recalling option if you are inside the gal.. Nowedays games are getting BORING...
Alliance players now launch in the middle of the night (due to pre-launching) get thier JPG's on ETA4 and recall when they got deff... I have been playing deffbunny last round and about 90% of all launches I did was without an battle.
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24 Oct 2007, 23:42
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#53
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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25 Oct 2007, 02:35
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Thanks Appoco, now wecan start talking... well, let me understand these stats first, I'm already getting a headache
TERRAN
anti FI: 2 (Fi/De)
anti CO: 2 (Fi/De)
anti FR: 3 (Fi/Cr/Bs)
anti DE: 3 (De/Cr/Bs)
anti CR: 3 (Fr/De/Bs)
anti BS: 2 (Fr/Bs)
Total: 15
CATHAAR
anti FI: 2 (Fr/Bs)
anti CO: 2 (Fr/Bs)
anti FR: 3 (Fi/Cr/Bs)
anti DE: 3 (Co/Fr/Bs)
anti CR: 3 (Co/Fr/Cr)
anti BS: 2 (Co/Bs)
Total: 15
Xandathrii
anti FI: 2 (Fi/Fr)
anti CO: 3 (Fi/Co/Fr)
anti FR: 2 (Fi/Co)
anti DE: 3 (Fi/Co/Fr)
anti CR: 2 (Fr/De)
anti BS: 1 (De)
Total: 13
Zikonian
anti FI: 2 (Fi/Co)
anti CO: 2 (Fi/Co)
anti FR: 2 (Co/De)
anti DE: 2 (Co/Fr)
anti CR: 3 (Fr/De/Bs)
anti BS: 2 (De/Bs)
Total: 13
Etraides
anti FI: 1 (Co)
anti CO: 3 (Co/De/Bs)
anti FR: 3 (Co/Cr/Bs)
anti DE: 2 (Co/Cr)
anti CR: 2 (Fr/Cr)
anti BS: 2 (Fr/Cr)
Total: 13
TOTAL anti FI: 9 (vs 1 attack fleet: Xan)
TOTAL anti CO: 12 (vs 2 attack fleets: Zik, Etd)
TOTAL anti FR: 13 (vs 2 attack fleets: Cat, Xan)
TOTAL anti DE: 13 (vs 2 attack fleets: Ter, Zik)
TOTAL anti CR: 13 (vs 2 attack fleets Cat, Etd)
TOTAL anti BS: 9 (vs 1 attack fleet: Ter)
Only ships targeted in T3: FR (by 1 Fi and 1 Bs) - DE (by 2 Co)
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
Last edited by Makhil; 25 Oct 2007 at 03:19.
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25 Oct 2007, 03:39
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
So many different aspects to consider... for example there's a big difference if your T2 is a higher or lower ship class than T1.
As T2 is 60% of the T1 efficiency, if T1 is Fi and T2 is Co (higher armour) your ship is rather inefficient, but if T1 is Co and T2 is Fi (lower armour) you got a pretty good ship.
So here it is: T2 lower/higher class than T1
Ter: 4/3
Cat: 4/3
Xan: 2/4
Zik: 2/3
Etd: 2/4
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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25 Oct 2007, 05:14
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 32
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
You have to keep in mind that t2 doesn't come into play until you kill all of the t1 ships. Therefore it might not come into play. But good work Makhil, I like what you've done there.
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Love,
Balor
New Dawn HC
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25 Oct 2007, 06:15
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
a bit more raw analisys:
Attack fleets:
==============================================
Ter DE
T1: CO-CR - T2: FI,DE
13 anti DE fleets: 1 FI, 4 CO, 3 FR, 1 DE, 2 CR, 2 BS
Ter BS
T1: FR-CR - T2: DE, BS
9 Anti BS fleets: 1 CO, 2 FR, 2 DE, 1 CR, 3 BS
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Cat FR
T1: CO, CR - T2: FI, DE
13 Anti FR fleets: 3 FI, 3 CO, 1 DE, 3 CR, 3 BS
Cat CR
T1: FR, CR - T2: DE, BS
13 Anti CR fleets: 1 CO, 5 FR, 3 DE, 2 CR, 2 BS
==============================================
Xan FI
T1: FI, DE - T2: CO, FR
9 Anti FI fleets: 3 FI, 2 CO, 2 FR, 1 DE, 1 BS
Xan FR
T1: CO, DE - T2: FI, CR
13 Anti FR fleets: 3 FI, 3 CO, 1 DE, 3 CR, 3 BS
==============================================
Zik CO
T1: FI, CO - T2: FR - T3: DE
12 Anti CO fleets: 3 FI, 3 CO, 2FR, 2 DE, 2 BS
Zik DE
T1: FR, BS - T2: CR
13 anti DE fleets: 1 FI, 4 CO, 3 FR, 1 DE, 2 CR, 2 BS
==============================================
Etd CO
T1: FI, FR - T2: CO, DE
12 Anti CO fleets: 3 FI, 3 CO, 2FR, 2 DE, 2 BS
Etd CR
T1: DE, BS - T2: FR, CR
13 Anti CR fleets: 1 CO, 5 FR, 3 DE, 2 CR, 2 BS
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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25 Oct 2007, 08:21
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#58
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xVx techie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 52
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
So many different aspects to consider... for example there's a big difference if your T2 is a higher or lower ship class than T1.
As T2 is 60% of the T1 efficiency, if T1 is Fi and T2 is Co (higher armour) your ship is rather inefficient, but if T1 is Co and T2 is Fi (lower armour) you got a pretty good ship.
So here it is: T2 lower/higher class than T1
Ter: 4/3
Cat: 4/3
Xan: 2/4
Zik: 2/3
Etd: 2/4
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I read this a bit different. I see the dmg value ei 10 for harpy being 10*0.6 for t2 and 10*0.3 for t3. What class it fires on first shouldn't have any effect. How would you calc the efficiency if there was 2 types of t1 ships around?
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25 Oct 2007, 08:26
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#59
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xVx techie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 52
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Updating bcalcs for this round should be fun :/
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25 Oct 2007, 10:56
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
having no bcalc should be even more fun
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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25 Oct 2007, 11:15
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#61
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
As I said before, this is an absolutely shocking idea. Changing to single-class targetting was great because it made it possible for people with small value fleets to roid people with bigger fleets. This was much more difficult under muti-class targetting. You're removing skill by doing this - the only thing that's more complicated is combat itself, and any credible player will just use a battlecalc.
It'll all end in tears.
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remember the damage is less for the T2 and T3 though - so you can still attack upwards if you are willing to loose ships.
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25 Oct 2007, 12:03
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#62
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
remember the damage is less for the T2 and T3 though - so you can still attack upwards if you are willing to loose ships.
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Damage is damage is damage. It's still going to be harder to attack, whichever way you look at it.
For example, do you remember Game's one million laser turrets in r3? They were terrible for efficiency, but they were effective because they targetted the right classes and could overwhelm newbie attackers. It boils down to the old maxim - quantity has a quality all of its own.
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Finally free!
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25 Oct 2007, 12:45
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Ter DE+BS targets everything and is both roidfleets
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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25 Oct 2007, 13:26
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#64
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Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 23
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Are there typing errors in this, or is it really the intention that De, CR and BS of other races than terran shall have almost no armor?
Edit: Scratch that! I've noticed that all ships except for terrans' also are dirt cheap now.
__________________
I came. I saw. I didn't understand what was going on. I left.
Last edited by Delver; 25 Oct 2007 at 16:37.
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25 Oct 2007, 13:44
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#65
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Rion
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 15
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
jesus i have already got a headache and i aint even DC'in any calls from it yet!
Damn multi-class :S
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25 Oct 2007, 13:48
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#66
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Rion
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 15
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
oh yeah and you may aswell get rid of ETD they have no become pants!!
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25 Oct 2007, 13:48
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
usually the Ter ships trade their initiative for armour. But the Peg is outrageous once again. Huge armour, init 5. a DE with init faster than the Xan FI (init 6 !!!) targeting it ! They should be the same init at best.
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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25 Oct 2007, 18:08
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Peg ROCKS, and good init is at it was before, but this time its not much damage, but more armor - so thats ok.
Basically i think the stats are ok, atleast for the first look.
A bit tweaking here and there and itll be ok.
I think Zik are a bit strong, but i might be wrong as i didnt run the stats through a bcalc or anything.
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25 Oct 2007, 21:30
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#69
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
if the 2nd and 3rd targeting had different inits to 1st boy those could make interesting stats
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Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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25 Oct 2007, 22:05
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#70
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
usually the Ter ships trade their initiative for armour. But the Peg is outrageous once again. Huge armour, init 5. a DE with init faster than the Xan FI (init 6 !!!) targeting it ! They should be the same init at best.
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baring in mind that the nightmare is gonna get a real good free hit
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Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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25 Oct 2007, 22:15
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK, South Humberside, Grimsby
Posts: 86
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
when i first saw this change i thought omg they have killed a good game, im not playing R24 etc..., then i calmed down and thought this might not be such a bad change and i should atleast try out the game with these changes before deciding i hate it.
i think people need to just accept it play the game and then criticize after not before :-)
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25 Oct 2007, 23:31
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#72
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Insomnia still alive?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 37
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
back to the old core with vsh target; fi/co/all :P
will not be that this time though i guess. long time since that time. r7 i think it was.
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Been a proud member of:
ViruS, Fang, Mistu, Insomnia, Destiny, CT, Rock, Urwins, Denial, Apprime, Rainbows, NewDawn, Norse
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25 Oct 2007, 23:41
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#73
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ND Ninja!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London, England
Posts: 295
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Im confused.. why would i play this game now? This was the only significant difference between PA and PIA, so now that both games are they same, why play PA when PIA is free and has alot more members?
__________________
ND Asc 1up TGV LCH eXi HR
RAWR!
~Love Luke, Love Life~
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25 Oct 2007, 23:48
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#74
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Because PIA is shit, much more so than PA with multi targetting.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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25 Oct 2007, 23:58
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#75
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 109
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
First impression:
ETD seems useless to me; in both attack and DEF. Only good for ingal def i'd guess. I had high expectations of the race due its partially freezing but still killing. Hope testing proves they can be beefed up a bit.
The rest:
Zik and cath seems to be either top or flop races. Cath really can be a fortress with the viper and scorps. Good def ships for ally use, though with the more losses overall i think any cath will be a magnet for incs.Ziks are blank right now and should depend more then ever on what they steal.
The true powerhouses seem Xan and Ter. I hope Xan will suffer from the lack op E/R but overall should the def ships collect enough defpoints to be on top of your ally's urgency. Plus the CO supports both FI and FR attack options. The glaring weakness with TER is Xan FR. Though a simple DE counter should give you a chance to force a recall. The DEF of the TER is immense and a viable option to take some loses better then any other race. And as stated in this topic the peg is great. The chim and syren are great def ships.
Overall the success of an attack should depend way more on what does your target keep at home or what not. With little def you still got a fighting chance to kill some.
Predictions:
TER dominate XP.
CATH wins the round (won by a defsoak for the ally)
XAN has the best t300 preformance
ZIK is the new CATH. (Either your good or your an inc magnet)
ETD bust...
Best moment for any1. Either deffing a planet or having def. Cutting trew your XAN incs armor like its made from cartboard.
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26 Oct 2007, 02:07
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#76
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
baring in mind that the nightmare is gonna get a real good free hit
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Thanks, I missed that one.
Well, Xans seem the way to go. With a good dist whoring, they will be a nightmare to def against
Major tweaking for ziks is losing the FR pods, now it will be more difficult to fake one fleet with the other.
Caths will not really benefit from multi targetting. So easy to neutralize it by flaking their T1.
Ter could be a round winner for once. Their armour has never looked so strong.
I'm gonna rush for 'Incoming Scan'...
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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27 Oct 2007, 21:32
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 13
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
How is EMP going to work with T2/T3 targeting? Will they just have the total number of guns multiplied by 0.6/0.3?
__________________
[F-Crew] - You know when you've been [FC]uked
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27 Oct 2007, 22:09
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#78
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
That seems a good guess.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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28 Oct 2007, 10:11
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#79
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 73
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeyLove
Im confused.. why would i play this game now? This was the only significant difference between PA and PIA, so now that both games are they same, why play PA when PIA is free and has alot more members?
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omg, I agree with LukeyLove for once
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Black Flag
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28 Oct 2007, 11:10
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#80
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I've taken a step back from development recently, so I wasn;t invovled in the decisions on this, however I think its a good thing.
For a start its more realistic and as lame as it sounds I do like some semblence of realism. The other big benefit I see is that new players who don;t really know what they are doing will be better covered defensivly which is good. To counter that though attackers will feel as though they need to use more ships to avoid losses - this is bad and removes the benefits. However, we do have XP which rewards hitting bigger planets and taking losses - perhaps now is a good time to increase the importance of XP slightly to promote people's willingness to loose ships.
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Realism is fine but it should never come before playability which this does. Hitting planets larger than you will become extreamly hard, just like it used to be due to the sheer difference in fleet sizes and the game will go back towards a game where its about having the most ships to allow you to bash smaller planets which is just stupid.
Its going to move the game back to an almost completely value based game as XP wont pay off and will remove the one thing that keeps a large number of players active past the first third of the round
__________________
Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
Co-founder of [F-Crew]
The Farnborough Crew
Cos anything else is just an alliance
Join our public channel at #f-crew
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28 Oct 2007, 11:59
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Multi-Class Targetting
I agree with Wakey tbh
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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