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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:13   #1
Dace
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Advice required

This thread is aimed more at the "older" more "experienced" more "knowledgeable" members of the board.



Anyways, i've heard from someone at work that the Office is planning on sponsoring a member of staff to do a masters in management*.

This is open to people with Hons degrees or "suitable highers".

Now the number of people at the Glasgow passport office with hons degrees is severely limited (i think there might be like 5 or 6 including me).

Of those 2 are "new starts" so i'm not sure how likely it is they'll get the place.

Also i think i'm well liked there so ...

There is a downside however.

That downside is my degree is a 3rd (from Glasgow Uni too tho so that might help in my favour).



Anyways what i want to know is:

"Is the 'Normally a good Honours degree (2.1) or the equivalent from a recognised institution' just a guideline which would (/might) be overlooked if the course is getting paid for by a company which wants to train up its promising staff?"

Also i appreciate that i will have to work there for a few years after getting the masters (if i get to do it) and i have no problems with it (if nothing else it will give me a chance to gain "management experience" ... and with the office investing money in me i suspect that they might advance me more rapidly than they might otherwise) but:

"What kind of job (and wage) am i liable to get with a degree, a masters in management, 3 or 4 years in various management roles (hopefully being SEO by that point ... management in the public sector tho) and a charming personality?" **



Anyways talk to me people (im particularly keen to hear from Dante with his "work whilst doing a masters" experience)






























*i don't know if this is the one but i think it will be looking at their prospectus as a whole

**
PO1 (administrative staff)
PO2 (basic pleb)
PO3 (more advanced pleb)
EO (line manager)
HEO (production manager type thing)
SEO (operation manager type thing)
GRADE 7 (senior civil servent)
is how the grading system goes.
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:17   #2
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Re: Advice required

Rankin , the fact you didnt get a First or even a 2-1 was mainly down to the fact you just didnt work hard enough, rather than anything else. Youre a hyper-intelligent mother****er, and could do the job blindfolded.

Go for the ****ing post. Remember, you did your degree playing PA, and now thats not a problem, you just need to cut down on the poker, and youd ****ing breeze it.
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:20   #3
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Re: Advice required

Steve i know i can do the course easily enough it's just i don't know if they'll allow me to do the course because all they have to go on is my degree results (and was wondering if they're strict on it ... i know that Glasgow Uni allowed others from my class to do a masters there if they got a 2:2).
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:22   #4
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Re: Advice required

A non-useful semi-relevant fact is that a PhD typically adds on £5k to your starting salary allegedely so I was told.
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:22   #5
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Re: Advice required

i would say that you can easily do it as well, nothing should stop you frmo going for it at the very least, and out of that many people you must have a damn good chance of getting it.


also, the downside isnt really a downside considering you will need management experience anyway, and if they put you through a management degree they would be mad not to put you into a management role


(the one thing i will say is that as management, you will do less overtime, and what overtime you do do will be unpaid, as you will me salaried, but the pro's EASILY outweigh the con's for me)
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:22   #6
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Re: Advice required

Rankin: Just Do It!
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:23   #7
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Re: Advice required

oh yeah, and if the business are paying for it the uni are pretty much guarenteed to accept you, after all, who are they to tell business what to waste its money on
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:24   #8
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Re: Advice required

BTW people this is not me wondering if i should go for it (i really, really want to) but rather what are the chances of me getting it and what kind of job will i be looking at by my late 20's if i do get it?
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:28   #9
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Re: Advice required

your the same age as me right? (24) if you do this you are looking at (by the time you are 30) a management role with 3 years experience (+ or - a year depending on how long the course lasts, im assuming its part time) on about 25k at SEO level i imagine with the ability to use your experience to go for jobs at around 35k, or, if you are in civil service final salary pension scheme, the ability to make a full career out of being a civil servant, and having a bloody good pension scheme when you retire
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:35   #10
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Re: Advice required

You need quite a few years experience (even with a degree if business management) to get to be a HEO, even more if you want to advance to SEO. GRADE 7? **** that shit, you might as well run for parliment. In the private sector it's even worse. Naturally the better your degree level is, the easier it is. So I'd stop playing poker if I were you.

(I was a civil servant for 5 years, my mum's been one for 24+ years, and it's took her 6 years in her current post to get to EO level).
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:35   #11
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
your the same age as me right? (24) if you do this you are looking at (by the time you are 30) a management role with 3 years experience (+ or - a year depending on how long the course lasts, im assuming its part time) on about 25k at SEO level i imagine with the ability to use your experience to go for jobs at around 35k, or, if you are in civil service final salary pension scheme, the ability to make a full career out of being a civil servant, and having a bloody good pension scheme when you retire


EO starts at 16k (and change)

HEO is 22k (might be 24)

SEO is 27k (i think ... the HEO and SEO numbers i dont know off hand but i think they're about right).

All those are starting figures.

The private sector has gotta be paying at least 50% more i would have thought.
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:37   #12
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
back to school!

do it!
telling dace to go back to school, and "do it" might not be the best thing to suggest.....


Dace, as far as i think, you should go for it. If nothing else its something extra to have on a CV, and that cant harm
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:37   #13
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Exclamation Re: Advice required

Dancing girl.
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:39   #14
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Re: Advice required

well, i was just think off the top of my head from what i remember of our pay scales, so i wasnt too far off


i would still say go for it, you have nothing to lose if they are paying and everything to gain
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:45   #15
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
You need quite a few years experience (even with a degree if business management) to get to be a HEO, even more if you want to advance to SEO. GRADE 7? **** that shit, you might as well run for parliment. In the private sector it's even worse. Naturally the better your degree level is, the easier it is. So I'd stop playing poker if I were you.

(I was a civil servant for 5 years, my mum's been one for 24+ years, and it's took her 6 years in her current post to get to EO level).


Things are a little different in the passport service in comparison to the civil service as a whole.

For a start i think we're the only part of the civil service that is expanding (all those jobs which were "slashed" from the DWP were absorbed, or at least alot of them were, by the passport agency).

Also the way the evening shift is set up at the mo i think i'd make EO within 2 or 3 years anyways.

Also there are people who were in one case:

A PO1 4 years ago who is now an HEO (she has a degree)

and in another:

An EO 2 years ago who is now an SEO (he doesnt)

I mean just so you know that if your face fits you can get a move on rapido style
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:47   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
i would still say go for it, you have nothing to lose if they are paying and everything to gain
Nothing. Apart from pride, self-confidence and the belief that people at work respect his talents.

You are right though, the obvious answer is to apply anyway and steel yourself for rejection now. Competition is so humiliating.
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:48   #17
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Re: Advice required

Passport service is probably different, all my experience has been in the DWP, and it's still very old school. In my first job I got put on a desk next to a window and one old woman who was retiring sniffed at me and said "It took me 10 years to get a window seat."
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:51   #18
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
Things are a little different in the passport service in comparison to the civil service as a whole.

For a start i think we're the only part of the civil service that is expanding (all those jobs which were "slashed" from the DWP were absorbed, or at least alot of them were, by the passport agency).

Also the way the evening shift is set up at the mo i think i'd make EO within 2 or 3 years anyways.

Also there are people who were in one case:

A PO1 4 years ago who is now an HEO (she has a degree)

and in another:

An EO 2 years ago who is now an SEO (he doesnt)

I mean just so you know that if your face fits you can get a move on rapido style


christ get me a job at your place will you, i cant get ****ing ANYWERE atm in my job, its getting really bloody frustration
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:52   #19
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Re: Advice required

Ohhhh also ...

One of the SEO's in the office had been there for 2 or 3 years (after getting promoted from being in charge of like 20 people in his previous job) and is now a Grade 7 down in London on the "mega bucks".
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:53   #20
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
Passport service is probably different, all my experience has been in the DWP, and it's still very old school. In my first job I got put on a desk next to a window and one old woman who was retiring sniffed at me and said "It took me 10 years to get a window seat."


DWP is a shitter of a job promotion wise (from what i understand).

The Passport Office is expanding atm.

When the "identity cards" shit kicks in if you have ambition and some smarts i'm pretty sure you can go far.*


















*in the civil service anyways
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:55   #21
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
This thread is aimed more at the "older" more "experienced" more "knowledgeable" members of the board.



Anyways, i've heard from someone at work that the Office is planning on sponsoring a member of staff to do a masters in management*.

This is open to people with Hons degrees or "suitable highers".

Now the number of people at the Glasgow passport office with hons degrees is severely limited (i think there might be like 5 or 6 including me).

Of those 2 are "new starts" so i'm not sure how likely it is they'll get the place.

Also i think i'm well liked there so ...

There is a downside however.

That downside is my degree is a 3rd (from Glasgow Uni too tho so that might help in my favour).



Anyways what i want to know is:

"Is the 'Normally a good Honours degree (2.1) or the equivalent from a recognised institution' just a guideline which would (/might) be overlooked if the course is getting paid for by a company which wants to train up its promising staff?"

Also i appreciate that i will have to work there for a few years after getting the masters (if i get to do it) and i have no problems with it (if nothing else it will give me a chance to gain "management experience" ... and with the office investing money in me i suspect that they might advance me more rapidly than they might otherwise) but:

"What kind of job (and wage) am i liable to get with a degree, a masters in management, 3 or 4 years in various management roles (hopefully being SEO by that point ... management in the public sector tho) and a charming personality?" **



Anyways talk to me people (im particularly keen to hear from Dante with his "work whilst doing a masters" experience)
*i don't know if this is the one but i think it will be looking at their prospectus as a whole

**
PO1 (administrative staff)
PO2 (basic pleb)
PO3 (more advanced pleb)
EO (line manager)
HEO (production manager type thing)
SEO (operation manager type thing)
GRADE 7 (senior civil servent)
is how the grading system goes.
Youth is the answer. The youngest of the group will generally get the school. Someone young, and with wife and kids.
Its society.
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Unread 16 Apr 2005, 23:55   #22
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
christ get me a job at your place will you, i cant get ****ing ANYWERE atm in my job, its getting really bloody frustration


The biggest Passport Office in the Country is in Durham.

If you can get in as a PO3 i'd consider it if i were you.

I mean you seem to like the civil service type job anyway so *shrug*
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:02   #23
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Youth is the answer. The youngest of the group will generally get the school. Someone young, and with wife and kids.
Its society.


I'm not so sure.

I would think someone (more likely a guy but who knows) with a few years experience in the company, with a hons degree in something useful (some analytical subject ... economics ideally), who was young (but not too young early/mid 20's) and with no commitments/attachments (so they could be sent wherever the company needed them) would be the ideal choice.

You'd need to up your "stats" if you weren't liked there tho (ohhhh the bitchiness inherent to the system).
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:03   #24
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Re: Advice required

i thought that you needed a degree for your type of job which is why i havent been looking, i shall now be keeping a eye out
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:03   #25
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Re: Advice required

darling

you need to understand people

they put that to make themselves feel good. there is no reason on my green earth that you should not apply to do this.

they will give it to the person who has the most enthusiasm and committment

the last thing they want to do is give this to someone who gives up. not because they care, but because it will make them look stupid.

convince them you can do it and that you want to do it enough

this is always the battle

formal qualifications, beauty, youth, energy, excitement, being nice to wankers; these are just ammunition to help you win the battle.
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:08   #26
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
i thought that you needed a degree for your type of job


AHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:10   #27
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
darling

you need to understand people

they put that to make themselves feel good. there is no reason on my green earth that you should not apply to do this.

they will give it to the person who has the most enthusiasm and committment

the last thing they want to do is give this to someone who gives up. not because they care, but because it will make them look stupid.

convince them you can do it and that you want to do it enough

this is always the battle

formal qualifications, beauty, youth, energy, excitement, being nice to wankers; these are just ammunition to help you win the battle.


Thanks for the advice/encouragement.
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:11   #28
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Re: Advice required

How do i show them i have commitment tho? (just thinking about it atm)
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:15   #29
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
How do i show them i have commitment tho? (just thinking about it atm)


probably 3 to 5 years, but im not sure if they will include the actual time that you are doing the course and how strict they will be about keeping you
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:21   #30
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
There is a downside however.

That downside is my degree is a 3rd (from Glasgow Uni too tho so that might help in my favour).
I'd suggest asking around and finding out if anyone with similar qualifications* has gone through anything similar or if there are 'superiors' who are in their position through merit and not because of some fancy degree.






































* I'm guessing a third at Glasgow would be on a par with your average long-term McDonalds worker, amirite?
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:25   #31
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Re: Advice required

On the "keeping me" front ...

FIU* EO's have to go on a "Fraud Acreditation course".

Once they do that they could pretty much leave the civil service and go work for a bank on double their wage.

They weren't made to sign anything before they did the course (and people in other offices have since left for bank type jobs post-haste).

I'm not so sure about how likely they are to make me sign anything (although i would have no probs signing anything up to 4 years i suppose).



"Commitment wise" tho what i was talking about is "how do i show them i'm committed?" (i have only worked there for 2 and a bit years etc.






















*Fraud Investigation Unit
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:30   #32
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
I'd suggest asking around and finding out if anyone with similar qualifications* has gone through anything similar or if there are 'superiors' who are in their position through merit and not because of some fancy degree.


I don't need to ask as i'm a nosey bastard who knows ALOT about what goes on in the office.

"Word on the street" is that if you have a degree (any degree) you're liable to advance.

Most of my superiors are there because of merit (as opposed to degrees ... like i said not many degrees kicking about in the office).

Also there hasnt been any kind of master's funding type thing there ever before.

I shall ignore your McDonalds jibe in reference to my Uni* Mr Polytech Boy (/old man).









P.S You're opinion was also one i wanted to hear








*which is a pretty good Uni i'll have you know and the only one i ever wanted to go to
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 00:32   #33
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
How do i show them i have commitment tho? (just thinking about it atm)
the key is energy.

if you can show energy, and not seem irrational and insane, then you win life.

I promise you.

this applies to everything in life. humans make decisions, they make 'judgement calls'. they decide as a matter of faith. now you are intelligent dace. you know there is no 'one way' to do this.

self confident steel jawed heavily qualified

passionate angry bitter poor determined

two wholly different methods. the key, what links these two and all the others is not how they do it, what they have, which lie they tell

it is the faith they inspire
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 01:02   #34
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Re: Advice required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
How do i show them i have commitment tho? (just thinking about it atm)
Easy, you say you know the 5 or 6 others right? Do EVERYTHING that they do, but do it BETTER, and do aditional things to. So when the comparison starts....
Boss1: I like peter, he stays late sometimes
Boss2: Dace stays late too!! And he comes in early!! *







*generally, the conversation will be more sophisticated than this, but i got off the basic idea.
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Unread 17 Apr 2005, 01:03   #35
Dead_Meat
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Re: Advice required

The thing to remember is not how well it will affect your career, the people deciding this will be thinking more about what how it will benefit the department/office by having you/someone trained for managerial positions.
If they perceive you as a potential manager (of your peers) or as someone who will do the job and progress slowly and gradually through the ranks and (maybe) become a manager by default.

You need to look at the way you approach your work, whether you are pro- or re-active and whether you are already seen as someone people 'look to' for help and advice.

Basically, this type of thing is mainly about bullshit. The'll ask if you see yourself as a team player, and wanting to lead the team and drive it, blah blah blah. Management degrees teach a lot about theory, which is why so many people with them are truly terrible managers, but people who already have a sprinkling of experience (of leadership, however small) can actually benefit from them and learn something.

I'd guess if you can argyue that you have already shown an aptitude for leading, and can show examples, then you can divert attention from yoru degree by positioning yourself as a good candidate through experience, rather than academic means.


I kind of guessed you would be asking me, I think the
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
This thread is aimed more at the "older" more "experienced" more "knowledgeable" members of the board.
kind of gave it away.

Heh.
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