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Unread 29 Sep 2015, 23:00   #101
SantaCruz
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Re: Santa Stats

Fi attacking Fr - Done
Fr attacking Fi - Done
Co attacking Fr - Done
Fr attacking Co - Done
Fr attacking Cr - Done
Cr attacking FR - Done - Switch Brig T1 Cr T2 Bs
Fr attacking Bs - Done - Removed BW T2 Fr. Was to powerful.
Bs attacking Fr - Done - Added t2 Viper as there was lack of anti Bs as Fr.
Fi attacking DE - Done - Removed bucc t2 Fi, to powerful
De attacking Fi - Done
Co attacking DE - Done - Zik immune
De attacking co - Done - Zik Useless without Cath on fi/co
DE attacking Cr - in progress
Cr attacking De - in progress
De attacking Bs - in progress
Bs attacking De - in progress
Cr attacking Bs - in progress
Bs attacking Cr - in progress
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Unread 29 Sep 2015, 23:03   #102
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Re: Santa Stats

Anything that is marked "done" can be fully calced. Flaws found and lets fix them now. They all should all be balanced. I ran calcs based on ally def, ingal and ingal/ally mixed. Ran calcs with 1mil value, 3mil value and 6.5mil value. They are all turning up balanced.

This was done for everything setup marked "done" above.

Don't just look at A/C D/C or E/R i've edited everything to be what I believe is required for that ship to be balanced with others targeting it or that it targets. I removed all guidelines and i'm focused not on what the ship looks like but how it works in these stats.

They might look to powerful or not powerful enough, until you calc with them. That's when you see what i'm trying to do
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Unread 29 Sep 2015, 23:46   #103
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
Stop looking at a/c d/c e/r look at the effs and calc.
a/c and d/c ARE efficiencies. I didn't do enough research to know if you offset a low d/c with a low a/c on the ships it hits, but even if you did you're just making it hard on yourself and everyone else. The entire reason a/c and d/c are on the table is to quickly view how cost effective building that ship is.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 00:30   #104
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
a/c and d/c ARE efficiencies. I didn't do enough research to know if you offset a low d/c with a low a/c on the ships it hits, but even if you did you're just making it hard on yourself and everyone else. The entire reason a/c and d/c are on the table is to quickly view how cost effective building that ship is.
So since you can balance stats by only quickly viewing A/C D/C and E/R.
Why have the last 10 rounds of pa been unbalanced?
Why are stats never fully balanced?
How come you end up ships that are unbalanced to the point the race is unplayable or even worst the only race to play?

That's not happening in my stats. Right now there is 5 races to play. With 6 setups. Each setup can roid EVERY other setup. It requires def to stop incoming. Not 1 ship.

Take the time to do the research or don't bother commenting. I'm not trying to be rude. I'm looking for help. Help means you need to understand these stats like I do. So that means no quickly looking at anything.

Pretend these are the stats your going to play next round. Study them and then help me.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 02:50   #105
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Re: Santa Stats

ALL DONE. ALL EFF'S ARE 100% (UNLESS I'M SHOWED OTHERWISE)

Which I kinda hope we do find a few mistakes, as that means people are looking for them ^^

Here is my final list. Calcs done with all ships, in combos from ally,gal and ally/gal mixed. Values done at 1mi, 3mil and 6.5mil. Mostly every race can team 2x and land ANY other race. Def fleets are normally from 20-30%. There is few pl fleets that can be effective at 15%.
These stats are pretty ****ing balanced at this point. Every calc I run is around the same. DC'ing will be easy/hard. Most 2x teams take 3-4 def fleets to stop if you build only 20% def in that class. Eg Fi attacking. Your ally builds 20% co into anti Fi. It will take 4 def fleets. 30% will take 2 or 3... You can adjust your alliances ratios for war and hostile alliances.

Fi attacking co - Done
Co attacking fi - Done
Fi attacking Fr - Done
Fr attacking Fi - Done
Co attacking Fr - Done - Switch Rev T1 De to T1 Fr
Fr attacking Co - Done
Fr attacking Cr - Done
Cr attacking FR - Done - Switch Brig T1 Cr T2 Bs
Fr attacking Bs - Done - Removed BW T2 Fr.
Bs attacking Fr - Done - Added t2 Viper, looked into changing stalwart to Steal Cr however it takes away from Fr's strength to much, not being able to hit BS.
Fi attacking DE - Done - Removed bucc t2 Fi, to powerful
De attacking Fi - Done
Co attacking DE - Done - Switched cutter T1 Fi T2 De
De attacking co - Done -
DE attacking Cr - Done Switched Bucc init to 9, Wraith init to 5, cerb init 8
Cr attacking De - Done
De attacking Bs - Switch Clipper T1 Bs T2 Co - Makes Co hitting De much nicer
Bs attacking De - Done
Cr attacking Bs - Switched Tycoon T1 CR T2 De
Bs attacking Cr - Done Added BW T2 Cr
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 03:06   #106
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Re: Santa Stats

Your idealism has gotten the best of you. It is entirely possible you have balanced each race and each class against each one other one, but you have failed to take into account the state of the game or even the original intent behind the creation of each race. You also need to include in your balancing the pros and cons of each meta class as well as alliance preferences. Please don't accuse me of being short sighted when we are two of the only true strategists left playing.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 03:56   #107
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Re: Santa Stats

I never called you short sighted. You did. Adding you didn't look into my stats. Just at a quick look. Then commented. That I'm making myself work by not having straight forward a/c & d/c.
Don't assume that it's idealism. I'm just not about to fail without trying my best. So don't get updet cause I'm making too much work out of my stats. It's my choice.

If you don't want to bother looking into them, I'm not forcing you. I'm asking for help and I could use it. Take no offence by that. I've not had time to view yours or bb with the proper amount of time. So I've held back. I don't want to fight with anyone. I just want everyone to enjoy the round.

These stats are almost 100%. This is when I need good long hard looks. No one can find problems with quick looks anymore. I've spent 15 hours on them
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 06:22   #108
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Re: Santa Stats

When I have time i'll try to do all the calcs too and hopefully provide some more useful feedback, but only did the Terran Fi and it made me wonder about the Cutter.
Is it's damage intended to be this low? It's the worst ship to def vs Terran Fi when you look at value needed, the only other ship that comes close is the Lancer, but that one is cloaked at least.
I saw you changed some stuff with that ship, maybe forgot to add more dmg?
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 08:23   #109
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Re: Santa Stats

Demeter has init 1. Other than that, I like them.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 12:37   #110
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
When I have time i'll try to do all the calcs too and hopefully provide some more useful feedback, but only did the Terran Fi and it made me wonder about the Cutter.
Is it's damage intended to be this low? It's the worst ship to def vs Terran Fi when you look at value needed, the only other ship that comes close is the Lancer, but that one is cloaked at least.
I saw you changed some stuff with that ship, maybe forgot to add more dmg?
Speed round call calc sometimes doesn't work right. Cutter is supposed to be lower yes. It fires with banshees on attack
If it was any stronger co would walk all over fi. I so check the calcs tonight. Maybe they weren't working right. I've had to redo alot the next day cause of this issue.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 12:49   #111
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Re: Santa Stats

To my knowledge you need a full game reset whenever you make changes to the stats, or some calcs will come out wrong. When a calc does come out wrong, simply calcing it again (just the one button press) usually fixes it.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 13:03   #112
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Re: Santa Stats

Don't think it works right on speed server. I can click the button 10 times and t2 I remove well still fire. Then it stops and then it will start again next time I push the calc. It's not like beta or main

By button I mean the reset button.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 16:53   #113
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Re: Santa Stats

You were right. Calcs i had last night. When i ran them again were like 400k different. I've raised cutter dmg to 32.
Anymore then that and Banshee/cutter team take over the Fi vs Co war.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 23:10   #114
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Re: Santa Stats

I've had a talk with appoco tonight. I will be changing all Sk's into it's eta partners :-/.

ETD will remain eta 8 however you will need hulls 3 to build it.
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Unread 30 Sep 2015, 23:40   #115
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
I've had a talk with appoco tonight. I will be changing all Sk's into it's eta partners :-/.
oh how boring was really hoping it would stick to make things more interesting but alas whiners will whine
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 01:11   #116
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Re: Santa Stats

Because someone opposing your opinion is a whiner of course.

Santa: what exactly is going to roid Xan aside from Xan and emp? They seem pretty darn good after all these changes, I fear for another round such as last.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 03:01   #117
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Because someone opposing your opinion is a whiner of course.

Santa: what exactly is going to roid Xan aside from Xan and emp? They seem pretty darn good after all these changes, I fear for another round such as last.
I've calced out the entire Xan Vs everyclass attack
In not one of these calcs did Xan win. Team ups are requires YES. Only Cath Bs can solo anyone. ETD FR even needs teams. This might piss some people off. But, its a hell of a lot easier to balance. Take the time. Look at my calcs. I used the correct ships that will be used in alliances. my ratios might be off but, change them to how you feel. The calcs will remain.

*Any class attack with it's teamup can roid ANY other race. Def will be required to cover ANY attack. That's why there is so many def ships that work together. You can get def from gal and from ally.


Xan Co planet(20%phant 60%co 20%saint a fleet that is setup to act with zik) being attacked

Fi
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...2i0nmmxj09p8v7
co
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...h2hm2bycs3z5m4
Fr
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...31m70mxpoawv6u
De
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...8c4s9xipjwph4t
Cr
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...8q01kolcuyfivf
Bs
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...vesv0s5c4qga81

Xan Cr planet Forted (Phant 20% ghost 20% cr 60%)
Fi
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...pg9w838tb2w5qs
Co
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...tnt7ksgb7yifaz
Fr
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...mxgvv2omo8g5ce
De
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...rx1su4dp6b0e6d
Cr
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...n6c24sk0sbp56t
Cr 30% value into angles
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...sof65azdk3qlq7
BS
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...nh38tylcl93iy9
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 03:03   #118
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Re: Santa Stats

I'm going over all calcs again tonight as i have noticed a few ships like the cutter that their calcs are the same as last nights.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 08:15   #119
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Re: Santa Stats

I do slightly agree with Patrikc.
Though i have a hard time making up my mind on these stats.
DE dosnt look viable
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 11:37   #120
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
I've had a talk with appoco tonight. I will be changing all Sk's into it's eta partners :-/.
I have no particular opinion, but I'm curious: what is your/his reason for needing/wanting to change this?
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 11:44   #121
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Re: Santa Stats

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I have no particular opinion, but I'm curious: what is your/his reason for needing/wanting to change this?
I suspect it isstats mafia who is behind this.
Its his same logic with the "steal chain" for other races, when you ask why he points you to go ask mz
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 13:58   #122
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Re: Santa Stats

Well he basically just said it's always been like that. Since the final choice is his. I never said anything else on the matter. In the end it's just SK so I'm not going to lose sleep over it
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 15:09   #123
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I suspect it isstats mafia who is behind this.
I'm still waiting for a list of names, by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its his same logic with the "steal chain" for other races
What you mean by "steal chain"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
when you ask why he points you to go ask mz
You'll be happy to learn I spent exactly 0 seconds analyzing ship stats for next round. If anyone asks me anything about them, they're going to be extremely disappointed.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 15:39   #124
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I do slightly agree with Patrikc.
Though i have a hard time making up my mind on these stats.
DE dosnt look viable

De is actually the the hardest setup to roid. If you do Calcs they don't land so easily but that's because they are a fort setup. Harder to roid. Harder the lands.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 15:39   #125
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Re: Santa Stats

A cruel person would say you spent as long looking at BB's stats as he did.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 15:50   #126
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Re: Santa Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
De is actually the the hardest setup to roid. If you do Calcs they don't land so easily but that's because they are a fort setup. Harder to roid. Harder the lands.
I mustve readed the stats half asleep, i thought Pirate was T2 CO, not Clipper.
Maybe it was my head doing tricks on me as xan "normaly" got FI pods.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 16:42   #127
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Re: Santa Stats

Still no names. Quelle surprise!
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 18:45   #128
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Re: Santa Stats

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Still no names. Quelle surprise!
Its not like its a coporate company either
There is no names on their memberlist.
It could even be your next door nabour...


The point is that they keep comming up with stuff one has to follow to stats to be correct or not.

IE

"1) 2 Pods per Race.
2) Xan = High damage, Low Armor, Fires after Cat.
2) Cat = All EMP damage, medium armor, fires first.
etc..
etc..."

or

"Fi Hits 11 times, and gets hit 11
Co hits 10 times, and gets hit 10
...
That's how you start correct stats."

or

"All sk have to be in ETA partners"

or

"You cannot have the CAT ship X stealing into CR, because ZIK have a CR stealing into BS, and that unbalance stealing chain and the time-space continuum, the universe will be destroyed! "

Basicly, its not pointing towards anyone.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 22:01   #129
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Re: Santa Stats

You claim is not pointing at anyone, but it rather seems you're using it against everyone. Or rather, you have an exhaustive list of things you don't like, and when anyone expresses support for one of them, and you don't feel like spending a few minutes countering their arguments, you can just state the poster must be part of an organized group of people who are to PA as organized crime was to Chicago. That's a pretty good way of shutting down any debate. Fits well in a long list of similar strategies that you've employed.
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 23:03   #130
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Re: Santa Stats

anyways....
I'm not part of this "stats mafia" because i pointed out, having only 4 Fi ships in your stats and then targeting 14 more times it stupid.....
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Unread 1 Oct 2015, 23:17   #131
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Re: Santa Stats

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anyways....
I'm not part of this "stats mafia" because i pointed out, having only 4 Fi ships in your stats and then targeting 14 more times it stupid.....
What difference does it make?
I could just switch around the EMP resitance, and make the EMP ships that target FI target CO instead. They are intentionaly made this way to play with your mind and to add more "strategy" to your fleet build. It means bugger all if a stat set plays out good or not.
If you can argue for it, give some example for when its realy wrecking the set so i can actualy get to working on the "issues"
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 00:41   #132
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Re: Santa Stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
What difference does it make?
I could just switch around the EMP resitance, and make the EMP ships that target FI target CO instead. They are intentionaly made this way to play with your mind and to add more "strategy" to your fleet build. It means bugger all if a stat set plays out good or not.
If you can argue for it, give some example for when its realy wrecking the set so i can actualy get to working on the "issues"
not sure it's worth my time tbh. if you don't see the problem with building your set of stats with only 5 classes instead of 6.... well i can try by explaining it like this,

if i give you 6 dollars would you just toss one away and keep 5?

Your given 6 classes, why only use 5? JUST WHY? I just don't get it.
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 01:28   #133
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Re: Santa Stats

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
not sure it's worth my time tbh. if you don't see the problem with building your set of stats with only 5 classes instead of 6.... well i can try by explaining it like this,

if i give you 6 dollars would you just toss one away and keep 5?

Your given 6 classes, why only use 5? JUST WHY? I just don't get it.
Its been a discussion for quite some time in here. 5 races, classes.
Im think mz made a good post on it not adding up.

A 1/2
B 2/3
C 3/4
D 4/5
E 5/6

X 1/6 - there is no 6th race.

I kinda, went for something like partly "combining" FI/CO if you like.
Thats the reasoning, if it will make a better set is debateable, so im rather after spesific calcs or arguments why its not a good idea, instead.
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 01:43   #134
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Re: Santa Stats

We can't even handle stats with 5 races let alone 6 lol. I long for the days that jbg just kept pulling stats out of his ass every round.
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 01:56   #135
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Re: Santa Stats

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We can't even handle stats with 5 races let alone 6 lol. I long for the days that jbg just kept pulling stats out of his ass every round.
Well im not arguing for a 6th race.
PaX "dumbified" the combat engine, i dunno wether to go back to weaponspeed and agility would be a "fun" idea.
I tried to make my stats interesting with adding aspects as asymetry, R2 dagger E/R, and "steal a useable roiding fleet option".
R2(Daggers), R7, R51(asymetry), R56(FAnG zik/cat FC CO pods strat) R59(BowS FI pod covop strat) as creative influences
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 23:07   #136
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Re: Santa Stats

ok back to stats. I've had someone call mara useless and they suggested it be changed to be a useful ship. I'm just going to clear up for everyone what mara is intended for.

Xan/Zik combo - Specs/Mara are an effective way to counter FR without having to keep your main attack fleet home. PL defence. This ship was only put into stats to give more of an option for alliances. It's not an easy way out. As they still need 15% of their value into mara. So it's a price to pay, so you don't have to force your members to ground anti FR every night. As an HC myself ships like this catch my attention in stats. If we see little to no CR incoming. The normal 20% value put into anti CR. Could be reused into PL anti FR. If your at war with an alliance that has ETD fr that keep raping your fi/co...
I believe it's a very useful ship. It's init and it's eff's would be silly to pass up if your alliance is capable of pl'ing defence.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 05:21   #137
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Re: Santa Stats

Interesting set, could be a fun round. I like:
- SKs in roiding fleets
- no race share the same 2 roiding fleets
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 07:52   #138
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Re: Santa Stats

Santa, I raised this earlier but it's still the same despite other changes taking place. I'm guessing it's been put in there intentionally?

Demeter (ST) init 1 is a terrible idea. Propagates trolling.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 14:56   #139
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Re: Santa Stats

yes it needs to be changed. i will do that now. i was just to lazy to before lol
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 15:44   #140
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Re: Santa Stats

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
Santa, I raised this earlier but it's still the same despite other changes taking place. I'm guessing it's been put in there intentionally?

Demeter (ST) init 1 is a terrible idea. Propagates trolling.
Fixed that and went over the ship costs. There was a few that needed to be changed for type. eg. Emp costing more metal or E instead of crystal. It didn't change Eff's
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 21:35   #141
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Re: Santa Stats

Why is locust T1 Fi instead of T1 co?

The only fi that shoots back at them is Ter the T2 makes it impossible for them to exist in this set. Xan def is too easy to stop cath de.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 23:55   #142
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Re: Santa Stats

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Why is locust T1 Fi instead of T1 co?

The only fi that shoots back at them is Ter the T2 makes it impossible for them to exist in this set. Xan def is too easy to stop cath de.
If your looking at my stats..... Locust is DE. Ter Nixies T1 on DE, ETD's vendors T2 init 2 on DE.... That's why they exist in these stats....
maybe in your nice way of helping, you saying that Locust should be T1 Co? I'm not sure what your going for here

3 fi ships hit De 1 t1 t2
3 co ships hit De 1 t1 2 t2
out of these ships, harpy do the most damage stopping De on def. That's why i T1 fi and not co
Cath DE should be to easy to stop alone lol. It's EMP T2 already firing at 125% wtf else you want me to do?
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 00:00   #143
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Re: Santa Stats

The biggest problem these stats have right now is defence. It's going to be hard as hell to def for the first 400 ticks.

Every strat roids every race. All you need to do is team up. Then it will take 4-6 def fleets to stop 2 man team. I dunno if i should change this or be happy it's going to be a FFA for 400 ticks before things tighten up cause values are bigger.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 02:12   #144
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Re: Santa Stats

Migjt end up a bit of a nap fest if people see that as a good way to drop the incoming due to not being able to defend themselves.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 04:13   #145
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Re: Santa Stats

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Migjt end up a bit of a nap fest if people see that as a good way to drop the incoming due to not being able to defend themselves.
lets face it, either way the nap fest alliances don't like dc'ing.
going to be a nap fest regardless.

however your point makes sense. right now to stop any class into you need to match it's value. thats easy if you go fi and co hits you. but, if you go CR and co hits you. you need to find that value somehow. Easy lands means you can put 40% into your attack value and focus your value into the def required to cover your incoming. that this point it's not as easy get landed on. 2 man teams are stopped by 3 def fleets with 30% the value.

this is the balance between politics and stats that is hard to get right.
Oh wait! that's not supposed to be my job! i'm just making stats. It's the HC's doing politics who are supposed to keep this round interesting for the people playing it. i'm just supposed to make stats they can play.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 05:52   #146
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Re: Santa Stats

With De teamups, the zik hits co at init 4, making sure xan co doesnt easily def vs you. So Locusts hitting fi at t1 seems like the better option from the De attackers point of view.

And i wouldnt say the stats favour attacking so much that you end up with endless roidswapping. The value required to cover incs on average seems fine. The difference with most rounds is that theres no 1-2 ships that jump out by requiring far less value to cover an incs.

I think the smaller tags might have to adjust their strat and politics because of the stats, but the full tags can do what they want and shouldnt point to the shipstats to explain their decisions.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 07:56   #147
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Re: Santa Stats

However if cath cant deal with cloak they wont be able to land, you get 1 bloody co fake covers every cath de in the uni. If Cath can't hit with out 1 fleet being able to stop them they cant hit at all especially since they no longer have eta adv.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 07:59   #148
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Re: Santa Stats

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However if cath cant deal with cloak they wont be able to land, you get 1 bloody co fake covers every cath de in the uni. If Cath can't hit with out 1 fleet being able to stop them they cant hit at all especially since they no longer have eta adv.
Isn't that the idea though? Everyone needs to team to land?
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 08:15   #149
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Re: Santa Stats

Except Etd Fi(most likly fi attack fleet) is emp vs emp so T2(better init) vs the T1(worse init) is a much better use of the ship. Since only Ter Fi T1 de, it gives terran the favorable matchup that cant be faked as 0.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 11:54   #150
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Re: Santa Stats

Cath has never been a team up needed race, infact most rounds they are capable of landing atleast 3 of 5 races solo with all of their attack fleets. In this set they barly can land 2 both of which include other caths...
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